The Syndicate

a2thezebra wrote:

Golden wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:I'm saying it is most likely a mixture. I'm saying it's more up in the air than it's being taken for granted as, without biting down on any particular conclusion. As for Golden being a cop, that's a separate conclusion altogether. That is just because his reads and conclusions seem better than his arguments.

Somewhere, a lawyer just twinkled out of existence.

Look at this way; if I'm wrong, consider yourself in the league of dunya in my opinion as far as accurate reads go.

Is that good or bad?

FZ has gone so far down the road of defending baddies that I could actually see it as an intentional distance at this point.

I'm not convinced, but where after the first lynch I felt there was no way FZ was bad, after this one I'm beginning to feel like it at least has to be on the table.

@Matt - I don't blame you for feeling that way about Sorsha. I don't think it is clear what Sorsha's role is, although I do agree it looked as though she had info on MM.

But my personal opinion on civvie etiquette. Don't take this the wrong way. I never call out someone as an outright info role, like cop or lie detector. Sometimes you are wrong (eg zebra thinking I'm cop). Sometimes (like Sorsha) we don't actually know what might have occurred. Every time, though, you put a target on that persons back, and that's not a fair thing to do.

If you are bad and want to night kill that person then lead the town into following all their opinions, then its completely ok

a2thezebra wrote:I'm saying it is most likely a mixture. I'm saying it's more up in the air than it's being taken for granted as, without biting down on any particular conclusion. As for Golden being a cop, that's a separate conclusion altogether. That is just because his reads and conclusions seem better than his arguments.

Somewhere, a lawyer just twinkled out of existence.

I just don't think you and I see eye to eye on how you make an argument. But I'm learning... I'm learning a bit about how you play. I respect it. It's good to have different ways of thinking, it's partly why SVS is someone who I'd take btsc with any day of the week. Two different minds are better than two minds the same.

But I think even people who know me well will say, my gut reads are often pretty good without info. I don't remember having a cop role. In respect of sig, whatever poor conclusions I may have drawn, there was one conclusion I have drawn that I was absolutely certain I was right about... things were not as straightforward as they seemed, and therefore I wasn't going to say 'sig is civ'.

And also, like I said, when redirection is at play, I think if a baddie has that role they often redirect to themselves to obtain information. I wouldn't even be surprised if sig had a nk protect, just to make it feel extra safe. For that reason, I had to have it in mind that the reason sig ended up the target could be that the baddies redirected the wrong person on to themselves.

I still wouldn't have voted sig, had I had freedom of choice. It was more a possibility that I wanted people to keep in mind, to stop them assuming 'save sig' was a good idea. It wasn't me preferring a sig lynch by any means.

Well, at least it would explain why you completely missed my point the first time through the iso.

OK zebra - your point and my head are now aligned. I think.

@zebra - why don't you, as I did for you, stop being cryptic and make your point clearly, then.

But - don't make it for me to read through some predetermined lens like 'you think I'm a cop', because it's just not worth it for me if I know your starting premise is incorrect.

PS, if I was a cop, I wouldn't railroad my number one suspicion on day one. I'd have waited and got a check on you first.

I also think its hilarious you accuse me of trying to get eloh killed while calling me a COP, of all things. What bigger target could anyone paint?

a2thezebra wrote:Golden, I want you to read those again with the context that I think you're more likely a cop than a bad guy now. You pay close attention, so pay close attention.

I'm not paying close attention to your stupid theory, because it's wrong.

Oh, by the way, ask epi about the self-targetting thing. Thing I want to self-target because I'm a cop, do you?

And it was clear in context the think about ninja being off the poll was because eloh wanted to vote/suspected ninja.

a2thezebra wrote:Golden that is reaching at best. Also, assuming you're right, are you trying to get her killed?

Oh, ffs - everything is bad with you. Even trying to solve the game. I give in.

It's not a reach. You say her posts are inconsistent with it, but you should read them again. They are absolutely not. How certain does she sound that the role exists? Why does she suddenly bring it up three times just after sig takes three votes? (This all feels very biblical).

Oh, right, so you just want to use the fact that, despite the common thread in ALL THREE POSTS being SIG, and it happening JUST AFTER THERE VOTES CAME IN FOR SIG...

That that one quote about ninja means she is actually the person taking names off the poll?

Then why was she off the poll on day two. Have you asked epi if people can use their abilities on themselves? I have. You can't. That is not Eloh's role.

@Mac - there would have been no rule skirting in the slightest. At that point, epi had made no ruling about role powers. You were free to role claim. Epi also didn't delete them, nor mine.

No. I never had the vote manipulator in a particular affiliation. The redirector I think could be bad.

Good theory, but wrong theory, Mac.

This is why. Also what zebra is missing in eloh's ISO. First three times this word was mentioned in the game were very early on day three, just after three votes for sig came in...

Elohcin wrote:

sig wrote:Wait what, three votes at the start of the day why?

Whose got the redirection role Idiot!

Elohcin wrote:Poor Sig. Sorry this is happening to you bud.

linki....Niju is off the poll today? Who else has been off the poll so far? I am interested in who has this role and the redirection role. Suspicious things are among us and I don't like it.

Elohcin wrote:

sig wrote:Matt shouldn't come back until the day ends

I see Elohcin know on the poll I'll review her but as I said I'm reading Blooper as much more scummy. Blooper isn't available to lynch today though, and I've yet to do my ISO on Elohcin.

Know I'm interested in who did this to me, I'm thinking if not the mafia then the Empire, notice this all happened when I mentioned two mafia teams? Might be acting alittle paranoid but it is worth discussing imo.

I am interested as well. Stupid redirection role.

Who do you think would have done this?

The only thing smoking is a smoking gun.

Although, I just realised that post is probably against the new rules, if so please delete epi. Sorry. I forgot.

That's also not something eloh ever said outright, so it's just my assumption.

Good theory Mac, except I think you and I are the same house.

@Zebra - you have to be kidding me. You noticed nothing? Nothing that she banged on about over and over again?

SHE IS THE VOTE MANIPULATOR

No, civ-aligned civ. CIV. Not indy. Not bad. It's just a maybe, but I'm upgrading you. Pending other things happening. Mac's idea could have merit too, I suppose.

SVS case might be wrong, but I thought it was pretty decent. I don't blame her for feeling the way she does about you. You have done odd things in respect of her and I assume you and she have more info about whatever it is that your questions and responses pertain to than I do.

Matt, I may have moved to civ-aligned civ on you now.

@Eloh - how do you feel about Matt F?

I'm not a cop. You should do an iso on eloh. I think you've been missing how far she cracked this game open today because she was red on your rainbow list, but nothing I've said in the thread comes from my ability, it just comes from paying close attention to other people.

a2thezebra wrote:

Golden wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:But then again I'm not sure if Golden is the one who should have asked me that.

Golden wrote: I hope that Floyd is lynched, because I think it is of value either way. If sig dies, it's just a whole lot of votes no-one wanted to cast etc. It tells us nothing.

Nothing? It tells us a hell of a lot more than MM's lynch.

linki - Oh I see. Yeah, I still do.

So you think Harkonnen were faking votes on their own teammate? Or do you think there is something else at play, and if so what?

I'm not sure. Could be The Smuggler, could be Harkonnen faking votes, could be one or two of you had a gut read or cop role that found out sig's alignment but couldn't form a case in-thread, there are many possibilities. I think all of them are more likely than there being four forced votes on a single day. Not positive, but it seems unlikely to me.

Fair enough. I doubt you'll take my word for it. I know mine was forced, and I have good reason to feel sure that SVS and Mac's were as well. I don't have the same level of certainty on Matt F, but how much more unlikely is 4 than 3. I think if anyone was a cop role, they likely would have pushed harder on the 'despite votes being forced, lets not rule sig out as civ', which at times it felt like I was the only one with any actual suspicion on him and I'll admit that even so I doubt I would have voted for him if not for the event.

I also think there is clear evidence from the person responsible that all the votes were legitimately forced. Do you see what I'm referring to?

a2thezebra wrote:But then again I'm not sure if Golden is the one who should have asked me that.

Golden wrote: I hope that Floyd is lynched, because I think it is of value either way. If sig dies, it's just a whole lot of votes no-one wanted to cast etc. It tells us nothing.

Nothing? It tells us a hell of a lot more than MM's lynch.

linki - Oh I see. Yeah, I still do.

So you think Harkonnen were faking votes on their own teammate? Or do you think there is something else at play, and if so what?

a2thezebra wrote:But then again I'm not sure if Golden is the one who should have asked me that.

Golden wrote: I hope that Floyd is lynched, because I think it is of value either way. If sig dies, it's just a whole lot of votes no-one wanted to cast etc. It tells us nothing.

Nothing? It tells us a hell of a lot more than MM's lynch.

linki - Oh I see. Yeah, I still do.

Yeah indeed, lol. Fair cop, you get to take the piss out of me as well

I was thinking in terms of if each of them was civ, what would we learn. But I certainly didn't make that clear.

a2thezebra wrote:Golden, I say that I must truly suck at reading sig.

I just meant about whether or not you think any of the votes were faking being forced. I don't.

Well there you go.

This leads me to think the redirection role is bad. I did think it could have been redirecting to self (or team member) to see what the ability was.

Bye sig. Well played.

@zebra - what say you now?

sig wrote:I've got the same feeling if I survive I'm going on a Crusade and like the First one not the Fourth the fourth kinda failed.

I prefer the Last Crusade.

I hope that Floyd is lynched, because I think it is of value either way. If sig dies, it's just a whole lot of votes no-one wanted to cast etc. It tells us nothing.

Sig did not vote? In his own defense? Sig, did you miss that the poll ended an hour ago?

nijuukyugou wrote:Linki @ Golden - I got the idea that zebra was being facetious with that post, in regards to Epi's warning about role-claiming.

It came before epi decided that role-claiming was not ok.

FZ. wrote:

Golden wrote:I know this is a little less meaningful coming from one of the two options, but I don't think any 'save sig' train comes down to me or zebra... we are only one vote ahead of the pack.

You know what bugs me about all those who have placed a "forced" vote? You're leaving all consequences to us. Okay, say you had no choice. At least say who you think we should vote for. If I vote for a civ, I'll be looked at badly, while you all escape unscathed from this because you had no choice

I don't think that's fair. I have stated who my suspects are for today, but I can't vote for any of them, nor can I tell you who you are to be suspicious of.

I've said I'm comfortable with a floyd vote. I'm comfortable with a luke vote too. Or a banana vote. I also think sig could be bad and I think it's the circumstances more than his actual affiliation that has us feeling bad (for most people). As far as zebra goes, it's risky to claim House Fremen when her first role was Atriedes, for all she knew fremen could have been a team with btsc, so I would prefer not to see zebra lynched, because I think the claim is likely true.

And it is no-ones fault that we are in the position we are, so I don't think anyone being apportioned blame for saving sig is fair.

I know this is a little less meaningful coming from one of the two options, but I don't think any 'save sig' train comes down to me or zebra... we are only one vote ahead of the pack.

Quick poll - do people feel bad about sig being lynched because they don't think he is bad, or is it only because of the circumstances?

For me, it's the latter.

Elohcin wrote:I just thought if her vote was forced (which is how it sounds) that she would have gotten the PM when everyone else did. If I got a PM saying I was to vote a certain way, I would do it then and not wait, especially when we were all talking about it.

linki: I will have to read them again I guess. I just went through them in the past hour or so, but I was also playing games with my kids at the same time.

You could just do in topic for SVS and epi and you would see enough

@eloh - read back the last couple of pages from scratch. You will understand what is going on with SVS's sig vote.

"If we could get three more on golden"

How about not? Please.

I'm feeling pretty good about SVS.

@FZ - its a good point.

a2thezebra wrote:

Matt F wrote:Lol Golden

Also, Golden, do you believe a Mafia team has that many vote manips in one day? Or are you still going with two different roles coincidentally picked the same person?

It's FACT.

Yeah. Have you read the thread?

Matt F wrote:Also, Golden, do you believe a Mafia team has that many vote manips in one day? Or are you still going with two different roles coincidentally picked the same person?

@Matt - the fact there were three baffles me. Mac was first on (on both occasions) and you seem sincere so that leads me to believe all three votes are genuine. I didn't want to die.

I don't think more than one vote manipulation role exists. I can't guess at why it might allow three targets. The second role I as talking about was a possible redirect role, ie the intended target of the vote manipulator not being sig. I think the real target of the manipulator might have been ninja, but that's a complete guess.

Banana seems to have forgotten he is playing, but he still signed up for star wars this morning

Bea got lots of good content in this phase - I hope she remembers to vote.

FZ. wrote:The only reason Mac is getting a free pass this game, at least from me, is that he's acting very different from TH game. But I know that if he got a baddie role again, he'd do his damnedest to look different. What has Mac done for the town so far? It's like every day he has this silly reason for not really getting himself dirty with the lynch. Day 1, it was the policy vote. Day 2, I don't even remember what it was, but he wasn't there in the midst of things. I think he didn't vote. Day 3, he happened to have been forced to vote.

Any thoughts on this?

I'm getting very good vibes from Mac. I think that when he has analysed what is going on, that analysis has been a genuine attempt to solve the game. I'm more swayed by his posting and perspective than I am by the specific votes.

FZ. wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:

FZ. wrote:No point in going into the Golden zebra fight again.

Why ask where my suspicion of him went if you think it's pointless for me to spar with him? Posts like this and the general "ugh not these two again" response I gathered from Day 1 IS the main reason I backed off in the first place. Would you rather I just say he's scum and leave the building when he shows up? I can't win with town unless I say I've changed my mind about Golden, and I can't, because that would be disingenuous.

No, throw accusations at him all you want. I'm reading and thinking. But it always feels like it's getting personal with you two.

It feels that way to me, too. I think zebra's suspicion of me is (or was) genuine, but I think she is also wilfully ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

a2thezebra wrote:

Golden wrote:At least if you were actually right, I could assume it is based on you having info. But I know it isn't.

How needlessly elaborate of you to consider the possibility.

OMG, look at golden, you'd think he is a lawyer or something

In fact, I'd go so far as to say I am accurately representing the facts.

a2thezebra wrote:

Golden wrote:At least if you were actually right, I could assume it is based on you having info. But I know it isn't.

How needlessly elaborate of you to consider the possibility.

linki - You are misrepresenting a very unlikely and bizarrely specific possibility as if it were "fact" to justify your unwarranted doubts of sig's alignment. I think you're the one behind the three votes he has.

I am representing a very likely specific possibility and everyone who has read the thread knows it.

a2thezebra wrote:

Golden wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:For sig, the only chance of him being bad would be that he or his teammates intentionally forced the votes on him to make him look good.

Obviously, on this point, you are ignoring the fact that there are quite probably two different role abilities at play and we have no evidence that if sig is bad his teammates would have known what they were bringing upon him.

Oh look, external factors!

There is nothing external about them.

a2thezebra wrote:

FZ. wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:If I was worried that we would spread our votes to the extent that a person the vast majority of us have a town read on will be lynched, I wouldn't have dared vote Golden. But I am not that cynical.

Did you notice that the majority of us have a town read on Golden too?

Did you notice that there is no remotely good reason for the majority of us to think that?

No, they didn't, because there are many good reasons for everyone who knows me well to think that. Those reasons aren't even remote. I told you what they were on day one. You just refuse to listen.

The only person pushing for my lynch is someone who doesn't know the first thing about me.

a2thezebra wrote:For sig, the only chance of him being bad would be that he or his teammates intentionally forced the votes on him to make him look good.

Obviously, on this point, you are ignoring the fact that there are quite probably two different role abilities at play and we have no evidence that if sig is bad his teammates would have known what they were bringing upon him.

Turnip Head wrote:But I want to know what people think of Floyd.

I would not complain about a Floyd lynch. I think his behaviour looks like a baddie. And either way it would put the day two voting into clearer context.

@zebra - lol about me showing many examples of disingenuous opportunistic behaviour. You are absurd and baffling. I've never quite experienced this thing people sometimes get with me, where they almost feel like their lynch would be cathartic just to prove me wrong. I'm beginning to understand with you. I've never met anyone whose tunneling is quite as blind to all external factors other than their own opinions. At least if you were actually right, I could assume it is based on you having info. But I know it isn't.

When you get to know me, you will learn that I don't even do 'many disingenuous things' when I'm bad.