The Syndicate

Marco wrote:@golden, weren't you leaning scum on MM today? When did it change to leaning town?

Umm... back some time yesterday where I was saying if I was wrong about one out of sloonei and marmot I'd lean sloonei, and then I was saying he tone reads good and it's probably more superficial stuff (like sloonei jumping to IAWY instead of Marmot) that has me tinfoiling them as a team.

But, the line is very blurry for me when it comes to marmot. His content makes me feel good about him, but there are still flags (like, him being the first to say something that made me go 'is he implying MP is a power role')

Inawordyes wrote:and I ask the vice-versa to you Golden, what are your current thoughts on Marco?

I still read Marco as pretty solidly town. I was irked by statements that I felt suggested one play style is preferable to another, but ultimately (especially after a sleep) see it as NAI, so I'm sticking with my read from before then.

sig wrote:Golden what do you think of MM?

I've been pinged by some of the things he does, but I tone read him town - its hard figuring out what side of the fence I put him on right now, but possibly slight town.

Dyslexicon wrote:I especially am puzzled by how Golden seems to avoid IAWY and not really giving a hard stance on him. It weirds me out a bit, but overall I think Golden is more likely town.

I don't know quite how this is the feeling you get, perhaps I've been a bit too fair in giving my hesitations, but let me clear this up.

My hard stance on IAWY is scum. I helped start the wagon on IAWY yesterday, without me that wouldn't have been a viable lynch option any more than Frog was, and at this point in time IAWY is one place where I feel my vote could realistically end up.

I do have hesitations in this read. I don't know IAWY, for one.

1AM.

Stupid. I am much too busy and tired for doing this to myself.

Going to bed.

FWIW, ika. I townread you and I townread silver too. And, you will see at end game that I did not kill silver.

Frankly, if I was mafia and I was going to kill one of you, I would have killed you but only because I think it sucks that silver is on such a NK streak.

ika wrote:

Golden wrote:

ika wrote:and FTR marco has pretty much hit all the points i would be making by now on this golden vs silver stuff.

You made them all AT THE TIME.

There is no need for you to make them again.

golden, you rlaize what im doing is more thn jsut defending her, im getting you ready for champ game too.

And I'm treating you exactly as I'd treat someone who said the same thing in the champs game

Because if I'm asked about my reasons for an incorrect read, I'm going to accurately explain those reasons even though hindsight has proven them incorrect. And if someone tells me that, in doing so, I'm trying to discredit a dead civilian, I'll dismiss it pretty quickly. I wouldn't want to give it air time.

ika wrote:and FTR marco has pretty much hit all the points i would be making by now on this golden vs silver stuff.

You made them all AT THE TIME.

There is no need for you to make them again.

Marco wrote:

Golden wrote:If you want to take me to task for a mistake - Frog was the mistake. Not Silverwolf.

And I know you're no scrub yourself. But, you know, you won't catch any implication from me that you are anything less than stellar. I think everyone in this game that I know or who I've come to know in playing this game is basically stellar. This is a next level lineup.

That was never my intention. It's why I even put the "mistake" under quotations. Error would me a more accurate description.

Don't you think that Zebra made a mistake in her scum-read of you and that it could have been avoided?

Golden wrote:But there is always a question of who will be lynched. I don't think it should ever be taken as clear cut that someone won't be lynched. Did Frog see a Frog lynch coming?

I'm not talking about the nature of lynches. I was talking about Silver being your town-read (with 0 votes) and the other wagons being your scum-reads (with at least 1 vote each).

My vote on zebra was never going to end on zebra. No matter how frustrated I might be, I've never going to end with my vote on a town read. The vote was a tactical attempt to get zebra to recognise my town meta.

ika wrote:hey golden, why are you misrepresenting silvers stances?

Entirely irrelevant. Silver is clearly town and dead. I'm only interested in representing what my perception of her stances was, for the purposes of responding to Marco's questions. She is dead ika. Her affiliation is known. You can stop defending her now.

Marco wrote:

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:How is it irrelevant? A mistake is when you make an error. And you made an error in judging SilverWolf's post.

No I didn't. It got me a town read. There's a much higher chance I ended up scum reading her without it, thanks to her tunneling on MP, if I hadn't engaged with her over that original vote.

Engaging is how you develop reads. Engaging is not a mistake. An incorrect read that leads to a discussion that leads to a better read is, for me, exactly how things should work.

Golden wrote:This is why I can't understand your whole 'it could be avoided' thing. It's like.. why would I want to avoid the discussion that allowed me to get a correct read on silverwolf? Makes no sense to me.

Eh, that's my point. If you had read her vote as innocent, like it actually was, you probably wouldn't have even scum-read her. eg: Zebra decides you're townie after all. Don't you think she made a mistake in her initial assessment and you guys could've avoided the whole thing if she hadn't?

Well, no, because I wouldn't have 'anything' read her, but then she did keep bobbling back to MP later, and that conduct would have been suspicious to me if not for our original conversation.

The point is, I got a much stronger read from her out of my engagement over what I found suspicious from her and forcing her to justify it, than I would have gotten from other content. That read was able to overcome the other behaviour that I would have scum read.

I guess I just disagree with the whole concept that 'avoiding the whole thing' is in some way of benefit. I prefer not to 'avoid the whole thing'. I prefer to HAVE the whole thing.

Marco wrote:When the "others" are your scum-read and she's your town-read, you can see what I mean about how there shouldn't be a question of her being lynched, right?

But there is always a question of who will be lynched. I don't think it should ever be taken as clear cut that someone won't be lynched. Did Frog see a Frog lynch coming?

Marco wrote:Would you say you've done similar things in other games? Plays that would be considered anti-town in a burst of emotion?

I don't agree that it's anti-town to try and find different ways to convince people I'm town when I am in fact town, but yes I don't have any problem roasting tunnelers in unorthodox ways that people who aren't accustomed to me might find unusual.

If you want to take me to task for a mistake - Frog was the mistake. Not Silverwolf.

And I know you're no scrub yourself. But, you know, you won't catch any implication from me that you are anything less than stellar. I think everyone in this game that I know or who I've come to know in playing this game is basically stellar. This is a next level lineup.

This is why I can't understand your whole 'it could be avoided' thing. It's like.. why would I want to avoid the discussion that allowed me to get a correct read on silverwolf? Makes no sense to me.

Marco wrote:How is it irrelevant? A mistake is when you make an error. And you made an error in judging SilverWolf's post.

No I didn't. It got me a town read. There's a much higher chance I ended up scum reading her without it, thanks to her tunneling on MP, if I hadn't engaged with her over that original vote.

Engaging is how you develop reads. Engaging is not a mistake. An incorrect read that leads to a discussion that leads to a better read is, for me, exactly how things should work.

Marco wrote:I assumed the hierarchy was there for a reason.

It is. The people I call 'mild town read' are the ones that are the weakest. The ones that are 'moderate town read' I have more than a slight lean on, and the 'strong town read' I feel very strongly about.

I don't rank people within categories, if thats what you mean. That would feel arbitrary to me.

Marco wrote:There never was a question of her getting lynched though.

Who says? Just because she didn't have votes then? That was her argument too. You never know who might find what suspicious later. Frankly, I knew there would be some people who found her approach to me in that conversation suspicious and would come down on my side. Who is to say zebra wouldn't end up lynched. I can't predict things with such accuracy.

Marco wrote:Are you basically saying that it was just that your emotions overtook you?

In a sense, I guess you could say that's what I'm saying. Not anger or that kind of emotion. Just, there comes a point where I stop caring - even though I also simultaneously do really care. I don't know if that really makes sense, but it is factually whats going on it those posts. It's the dichotomy of trying to convince someone I'm good while simultaneously not caring at all about who dies. Even if I didn't care at all about the game and its outcome, I'd still fight for my life in the game. I just... can't not!

Silver never really seriously suspected me, at least I didn't feel so. I can tell the difference between someone who seems fixated on me and someone who just seems to be having a nibble at me. Also, don't forget that when I was arguing with zebra I had three votes and noone else had more than one.

Marco wrote:I think it's a good thing that it leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Regardless of your alignment here, you'll be less likely to make a similar "mistake" in the future. Her vote looked very innocent to me. And I wasn't the only one, either. Placing a vote on someone as a "Hey, how's it hanging, I'm interested in hearing from you" is pretty common, especially on Day 1.

Bullshit. I didn't make a mistake. The mistake is to think my questioning of silverwolf was anything less than reasonable and necessary.

The fact the vote looked innocent to you is entirely irrelevant. You don't get to be the judge of what is innocent or not to ME. I do not think it looked innocent. I don't think it looked like a 'standard place-holder vote'. I thought it looked VERY SUSPICIOUS. I've explained very clearly to you why, in very clear terms. I couldn't have possibly explained it more clearly.

If you want to continue pushing the angle on the idea that I couldn't possibly be justified in holding a suspicion I genuinely held, then the only conclusion I can draw is that you are just like Frog - someone who thinks only your view of the world is correct and everyone else who has a different view doesn't know how to play the game.

If that's the case, I wouldn't have won the most games here last year, I wouldn't have won Syndicate MVP, I wouldn't be the nom for the championships. Get out of your own ass and stop calling my genuine suspicions 'mistakes'. I'm allowed to hold them. You don't get to tell me who I do or don't suspect.

And the sloonei thing will have to wait, for sure, because you have a hell of a lot wrong in there.

In respect of zebra - I've experienced her tunneling on me when I'm town before, and from that experience I suspect that absolutely nothing I say can change her mind. When she is determined she is right that's that. So, I guess I could have abandoned it and let it go, but I just don't let it go with people I think are town. I want to convince them to see the light. My responses to her indicate the fact I was coming in with a futile mindset, but that I still wanted to try to convince her.

I didn't get that annoyed with silver because silver doesn't have a tunnelling me problem, and besides I suspected silver not the other way around. If you want to compare - look at my responses to Mac in Arkham, for example...
This is shortly after I told Mac, basically, 'you are wrong about me every single time, you've never been right about me yet'.

I'm not sure zebra has been either.

I get annoyed when people come at me hard despite the fact they show no propensity to be able to read me in the past and don't seem to learn their lessons from it. I find it even more annoying when I happen to also be defending them as civ at the same time (as I was with Mac in that game). It's just like... can't you just see I'm town, get over yourself, and help us work together?

Like - I was never saying zebra was going to be lynched today. All I was trying to express to her is that if she was going to tunnel on me, then I couldn't care less if she ended up being lynched, because its no skin off my nose... even if she was town. For me, this is a win win, you either get scum or you get rid of the tunneler who doesn't want to take into account what you are saying.

Don't ask me to turn the posts into something that has logical coherence. It wasn't about that. It was about the fact that I could tell that my words weren't going to make a convert out of zebra, and so it was pointless to try - and yet having the futility of knowing I was going to try anyway. It's very frustrating and when I'm frustated I get honest very quickly - and honest truth, if I'm town I don't care if townies who are thorns in my side get lynched. I just don't. They are distracting me from solving the game. I don't know if you can understand this whole emotive muddle... it might be something unique to me.

I don't actually know why I'm townreading zebra, either. I need to think about that more deeply.

Frog read - since when is 'mild town read' the same as 'such a high town read'? It's literally the bottom possible town read.

I have no problem taking credit for Frog's lynch. I think that is an accurate read.

As for not engaging with him... I don't think thats entirely fair. I may not have asked him direct questions, but I did make direct statements in response to him that he didn't really engage with. I didn't really get the sense he was engaging with criticisms of him. But, you are right I didn't give him the same time of day as Silverwolf. A large part of this is down to timing - 48 hours to go versus, however many I had with Frog which was very few. The engagement he was giving was all wrong to me - all about how great he was and how terrible the site was... just not the kind of stuff that I can easily find a way to engage with.

Me chasing down my suspicions and making people actually account for them cannot 'be avoided'. It's kind of insulting for you to minimise my suspicion in that way, but it also goes to show that you are not familiar with how often I have 10 page fights with people when I don't think their responses are adding up.

And also, I'm sorry, but saying the silver thing 'could easily have been avoided' leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Her suspicion was shit. She took one person who was low posting and picked on them. Even though they had expressly stated they wouldn't be around. As I said right from the start, why not Soneji (who was a placeholder for anyone else with low posts). When Frog came along later, he ignored Soneji and there were still 4 people who had posted less than MP and MP hadn't posted any more by then...

If you can't see why this looked to me like Silverwolf was taking an easy mark, in picking the person who admitted they would be absent and going after them when she knew they weren't around to defend, instead of actually doing research into low posters and making it seem like she was genuinely trying to get people to post... like, it really did seem like the lazy approach to getting someone to post.

Later on she clarified that it was based on more than JUST the fact he wasn't posting. But on day one calling out one low poster for 'constant excuses'... I mean, it just looked bad to me on so many levels. It's not the way town golden would go about engaging a low poster 24 hours into the game, put it that way. It seemed deliberately inflammatory, underdeveloped, and the easy mark. I've been much more firm over day one lynches for much less. The only thing that was forgivable about it, for me, is that she does not know MP at all... if she did, her reasons probably wouldn't have swayed me.

I will start by answering your first question, though, on the silverwolf thing. You've misunderstood that 'no u' paragraph in the same way she did. My point is to explain that there was nothing there for me to get defensive over. I did not feel like she was saying I had no-u'd her. I did not feel like she suspected me. That's the point! I was listing the possible reasons one could have for calling me defensive and pointing out none existed. Like, there was literally no reason for me asking her questions to be me 'getting defensive'. I actually thought (and I still never quite figured out if this was correct or not) that she was agreeing with me, the exact opposite. Why would I get defensive over someone agreeing with me. That's why I found the whole thing bizarre, like, why would she read it as me being defensive, and what of?

I said I didn't like her vote at all... but then I asked her a whole lot of questions about the rest of her post. She called it defensive and deflective when, for me, it was just me trying to get to the bottom of her thinking. I felt, ironically, that her calling me defensive was actually her being defensive. And it was that defensive mode that immediately triggered my alarm bells to create the vote I put on her.

In hindsight, by the next morning I felt like her emotional reactions probably accounted for that initial post from her, and the fact I had said I didn't like her vote negated everything that came afterwards because she already felt emotive/attacked just from the first sentence, and kind of reacted emotionally. In the moment, though, it just felt like I had struck a nerve with my questioning and she was turning it around on me instead of answering the questions.

Lets call that...

Something for tomorrow time for me to sleep.

But thanks for doing it.

Inawordyes wrote:Do the moment, I guess I'll start getting some info from mynp nulls reads. Since Gikden is here, may as wel, start with him!

VOTE GOLDEN

Heyo Golden! I fully intend to change my vote to someone else, but right now I have you in my larger-than-it-should-be list of null reads, so since you're here right I'd like to have some sort of interaction. Anything you can tell me about your reads and specifically some thoughts on myself, Soneji (who is currently my only Mafia read) and MP (who seems to be a bit shady)?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MP - last time I remember playing with him where he was scum, I nailed on him on day one. Then, I died shortly afterwards and didn't get to lynch him until I got a rezz several days later, by chance, and by that point he'd done a major AtE gambit and I'd begun to doubt my read. But really, I think I am decent at reading MP. He does change things up a bit, but I think I'm much more likely to scum read his town game than town read his scum game. But he has mostly been town recently, hasn't had many scum games.

MP's cycle of frustration and apology, and in fact almost everything about MP, reeks of his town game to me. If he is scum, he has me deeply fooled and I'll congratulate him for playing a very strong scum game. The reasons I've seen for suspecting him have all been things standard to MP's town meta. He is a unique player and I like to wittingly call him 'the suicidal moron' because, when town, he is very good at doing something to make himself look incredibly scummy and end up being lynched for it. Of the people whose meta I know decently well, MP is the only one who I feel very firmly about in terms of their likelihood to be town.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You - I need to get a better grip on you. I feel like you are very likable and feel like you fit here. You have a very affable personality, in fact the kind of personality that makes me naturally want to town read you. I feel the need to beware of this. I do feel guilty often for lynching people who are new here (regardless of their affiliation) because I want people to feel welcome and stay. Especially nice people. So, I'm trying not to take this into account.

I do think others have raised good points for why you could be bad. I also think there is merit to the idea that, absent of having any communication on day one, if you were a member of mafia I could see why your teammates may have felt comfortable bussing you if they thought you weren't actually going to show up.

In some ways, you feel like a good lynch right now through little fault of your own (other than your relative absence). It does feel like lynching you could create a lot more interesting context to both day one and day two. I am listening to what you have to say, but I'd like to get a much more thorough sense of how you are feeling. As you yourself have said, you have far too many null reads right now for me to have any confidence in you. But, then, you are well behind. I hope you catch up.

My big problem in terms of reading you is... I just don't know you. That makes you hard to read.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't know why Soneji wasn't around for a while - has he answered this? I have found so far that soneji has a unique angle on events and seems to be endeavouring to contribute. I can't put him above 'slight scum' on my radar yet primarily because he doesn't have enough content yet, and what there has been is quite dense so I don't feel like I've developed a strong sense of where he stands.

However, on balance, the content that soneji has provided has good feelz and thinking solely about how he has approached the game when apparently starting from a long way behind, it does make me feel a little good about him.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Right back at you. How do you feel about Soneji, Marco and myself? Even if its null, what impressions have led you to null?

Marco wrote:

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Marco wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Marco, if not zebra, who were you hoping made such a comment in the thread?

Why would I be hoping for someone specific to make that comment? I knew Zebra's stand already, which is why I said I was hoping for someone else who said it.

The way I understood it, you weren't aware zebra had said such a thing.

As for your question, I don't know why you'd be hoping for someone specific to make that comment. I want to be clear if someone else meant someone in particular, or just anyone.

Zebra's and Golden's interaction this phase is what set off the most red flags in respect to Golden for me. So, yeah, I was hoping for validation from other people. Especially since most of my town-reads town read Golden.

What specific red flags does my interaction with zebra set off for you?

I guess I'll just be totally clear with you. Unfamiliarity is already a hindrance since I don't know what to expect from you. Give me a bit to get a post together.

Naturally it is. It is a disadvantage in some ways, but an advantage in others in that you might not brush over things that even I myself wouldn't have considered needed explanation. I would only ask that you try to take into account people who know me well on meta based defences, and I in turn will try to provide meaningful content for you in my response.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Golden wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Golden wrote:Full disclosure now that its out of the bag. I think I restrained myself in saying this earlier.

MM made a comment very early in the game which I felt revealed that he thought MP had implied a town power role. I also thought MP had effectively implied this, but I kept it under my hat. The choice to put it in the thread was part of me seeing both marmot and sloonei as bad in the early day. I feel like scum would be more blase pointing out that MP could be a power role than scum would be.

Since it is kind of now open discussion, though, I agree that MP or sig, if they are in possession of the correct set up, should say what it is.

You must be mistaken then, because I never considered MP could have a power role until at least Day 2.

Yeah, the start of today. The early day... of today. Day 2.

When you say very early in the game, relative to the current state, I think more like first half of Day 1, not first half of the current phase.

Yeah, I meant early in the day, like what I said in the third sentence, not the early game, like what I said in the first.

Matt wrote:

Golden wrote:

Matt wrote:MM - I've read a few pages, why does Golden want to hurt me?

I love you Matt.

It's sloonei I want to hurt. You shouldn't have subbed in. I'm not responsible for what I do to you now!

I read a post of yours about his tunneling on a dude named Frog but then pulled his vote off last second? Is that about the gist or am I downplaying it?

Nah, thats more or less the gist. That plus the fact that he seemed willing to follow Frog's reads with little explanation despite the fact he was scum reading frog. His interactions around frog, in general, were bizarre.

Marco wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Marco wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Marco, if not zebra, who were you hoping made such a comment in the thread?

Why would I be hoping for someone specific to make that comment? I knew Zebra's stand already, which is why I said I was hoping for someone else who said it.

The way I understood it, you weren't aware zebra had said such a thing.

As for your question, I don't know why you'd be hoping for someone specific to make that comment. I want to be clear if someone else meant someone in particular, or just anyone.

Zebra's and Golden's interaction this phase is what set off the most red flags in respect to Golden for me. So, yeah, I was hoping for validation from other people. Especially since most of my town-reads town read Golden.

What specific red flags does my interaction with zebra set off for you?

Matt wrote:MM - I've read a few pages, why does Golden want to hurt me?

I love you Matt.

It's sloonei I want to hurt. You shouldn't have subbed in. I'm not responsible for what I do to you now!

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Golden wrote:Full disclosure now that its out of the bag. I think I restrained myself in saying this earlier.

MM made a comment very early in the game which I felt revealed that he thought MP had implied a town power role. I also thought MP had effectively implied this, but I kept it under my hat. The choice to put it in the thread was part of me seeing both marmot and sloonei as bad in the early day. I feel like scum would be more blase pointing out that MP could be a power role than scum would be.

Since it is kind of now open discussion, though, I agree that MP or sig, if they are in possession of the correct set up, should say what it is.

You must be mistaken then, because I never considered MP could have a power role until at least Day 2.

Yeah, the start of today. The early day... of today. Day 2.

Marco wrote:

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:IAWY wagon started after MM tried to start a wagon on Sloonei. MP and Silver were the ones who started it IIRC.

I started it with silver. Obviously you don't have my perspective on it, but I know both silver and I are town, so that tells me nothing at all.

Not sure I'm getting your point.

What I'm saying is that if Frog wagon was an attempt by scum to save scummate (this actually makes you look better IMO), then IAWY and MM would both have to be scum, which isn't that likely IMO. On the other hand, if we'd never had the CFD on Frog and IAWY had been lynched and flipped town, one could make a pretty strong case about MM being scum. And vice versa if MM was lynched and flipped town.

I guess you are saying only two wagons is better than three wagons, in terms of how much you tell us.

I see your point. I'd have to think about whether I agreed with it, but I certainly see your logic.

Marco wrote:IAWY wagon started after MM tried to start a wagon on Sloonei. MP and Silver were the ones who started it IIRC.

I started it with silver. Obviously you don't have my perspective on it, but I know both silver and I are town, so that tells me nothing at all.

Mind you, they might not know what it is... just that town vig isn't on it.

Full disclosure now that its out of the bag. I think I restrained myself in saying this earlier.

MM made a comment very early in the game which I felt revealed that he thought MP had implied a town power role. I also thought MP had effectively implied this, but I kept it under my hat. The choice to put it in the thread was part of me seeing both marmot and sloonei as bad in the early day. I feel like scum would be more blase pointing out that MP could be a power role than scum would be.

Since it is kind of now open discussion, though, I agree that MP or sig, if they are in possession of the correct set up, should say what it is.

Marco wrote:Regardless of Frog's alignment, it was guaranteed that he'd interact with people a lot and that would give us a lot of reads.

Here's the thing though... he wasn't. After his early interactions with you guys, he literally essentially stopped interacting with people. At least that was my impression. He got fixated on four names and no longer engaged in anything else. That's why I struggle to see what we lost as lost value. There is a difference between 'active and vocal' and actually providing content. He wasn't.

Marco wrote:

Golden wrote:1) I did feel like it was an 'act' (not the being drunk thing, but just his whole demeanour). I have expressed this before in different ways, but I'll do my best in expressing it in a new way. I felt like he was trying to dominate the town direction and push it in the direction he wanted, and to me it felt wifom (like, does he want to be town leader, or does he want us to think thats what he wants), and he pushed his particular gambits in a very dismissive way (I'm right, you're wrong) and talked about how no-one would have the balls to nk him, and I began to feel as though the whole thing was one big pile of wifom with the deliberate goal of making himself too much of an enigma to be touched. I've seen scum do things like that and run to the end too often. In fact, I came out the other side feeling like I was still right about the whole thing being an act - and maybe even why he was doing it - just wrong about the fact he was scum.

2) I find it difficult to judge how much info we'd have gotten (or get now) out of a town flip from IAWY or MM.

1. Yes, he was meta-gaming throughout the latter half. In my experience, it's best to not lynch such players Day 1. This is why I can understand Sloonei taking his vote off Frog. Regardless of Frog's alignment, it was guaranteed that he'd interact with people a lot and that would give us a lot of reads.

2. Well, MM and MP were the lynch candidates. MM tried to start a wagon on Sloonei but people moved on to IAWY instead. An IAWY flip would give us info on the voters who switched to him and insight into Sloonei's and MP's alignment. MM was a divisive read for a lot of people and he had his own leads. His death would've clarified quite a bit too. What info did we get from the Frog flip?

On 2 - explain to me what info we get from voters who 'switched to him' and how we get into the alignments of MM and MP if IAWY was town, in a way that we would not have gotten exactly the same from people who moved away from MM and IAWY to Frog, and the alignments of MM and IAWY? I can't see how these two things are different? Expressly tell me what kind of info we would have gotten, and why, from a town IAWY flip and why we do not have analagous information from a Frog flip. I don't understand this at all.

From my perspective, the reason we don't have data from a frog town flip is primarily because we have no scum flips to try and factor in what it means. It may give us information later. But similarly, an IAWY town flip feels like it would be exactly the same to me... I can't fathom what useful information would have come from it.

Inawordyes wrote:

Golden wrote:

Inawordyes wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Dyslexicon wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Would you be able to rank your scum reads somehow?

What did you think of my Soneji ISO earlier?

I could, eventually. But I still feel I want to hear more from most of them (since they are all/most pretty quiet). It still feels unsolved to me in a way, if that makes sense. But IAWY is my prefered lynch, and my strongest suspicion.

I was so tired when I read the Soneji-ISO I don't really remember. Sorry. I do appreciate you putting in the work, and I will surely get back to it. Apart from that I've looked into his ISO on my own today to check up on things. I'm not convinced by him, he's a null I'm suspicious of. He could very well be teamed with IAWY if he is indeed scum. I don't feel his push on Sig is very good. Firstly because I feel Sig is a player that would be easy to push on (easy target, for various reasons), and two because the argument doesn't seem all that strong to me and gets a bit repetative. I don't think it makes that much sense for scum!Sig to push on Soneji of all people if Sig is scum. That being said, I don't think it's impossible for Soneji to be town doing all this either. So it's inconclusive atm.

No worries, that's understandable. I feel like we're mind melding the most this phase, so I'm with you on IAWY. It would take some real town spark from IAWY to get me to move that vote, because I have not liked his recent posts (though he seems like a nice fellow).

Not a problem, let me know what you think when you get to it. Yeah, sig is an easy mislynch (or lynch in general), so I think he's particularly difficult to read. I need to figure him out myself.

Thanks for the elaboration.

Once you read me as Mafia you stop looking at me as town, so commenting that you don't like my recent posts is meaningless except as a tool to convince others to look at me the same way, which is a scummy tactic, or possibly a cop tactic but I don't think you would've been this subtle about a redcheck on me if that was a possibility.

Hope, that was not a slip up, don't you dare read it as such.

The whole last part of the sentence just baffles me completely.

Marco wrote:

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:

Soneji wrote:

Marco wrote:I also feel like most of the people on the Frog wagon (or those retroactively calling him scummy this phase) misrepresented him, intentionally or otherwise. This is in terms of his "inactive hunting" push. Or maybe I'm just sore you guys CFD'd one of the most active and experienced players (and one of my biggest town reads) to save two fairly inactive players (both in my scum reads).

He did inactive hunt though, to the point of actively discouraging discussion on basically anyone but them.

I think you missed out on a lot of context because you basically skimmed the whole thread in less than a couple hours. Moot point now, since Frog is already dead. I'm just finding it odd that I was the only person actually understanding him when I was the one opposing him for half of Day 1.

I disagree. I felt him very understandable, and said so, in that first half of day 1. I did not agree with his perspective, but I felt it was town.

Frog's first half of day one was great.

What about the second half put you off about him? Did you think the drunk bit was an act? I felt I could understand his reluctance to "hunt". It felt to me like he was losing patience in the dayphase and just wanted to see some flips before spending more time on reading people. 72 hours is quite long. Most of us are used to 24 hour phases. Especially since a large part of Day 1 is RVS.

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:I'll admit that even I was very curious about the Frog flip near the EOD. I could've switched to IAWY myself to save Frog, after all, but the general confusion of the rapid changing votes and self-doubt led me to stay on MM.

I feel like this is also part of why I stayed on Frog in the end. I'd convinced myself that I needed to understand the enigma. I also felt (at the time) that it would give us information. Well, I feel it would have given us a lot if he flipped scum.

But in hindsight, vanilla really didn't give us info at all.

Don't you think MM or IAWY lynches would've given us more information, regardless of what they flipped?

1) I did feel like it was an 'act' (not the being drunk thing, but just his whole demeanour). I have expressed this before in different ways, but I'll do my best in expressing it in a new way. I felt like he was trying to dominate the town direction and push it in the direction he wanted, and to me it felt wifom (like, does he want to be town leader, or does he want us to think thats what he wants), and he pushed his particular gambits in a very dismissive way (I'm right, you're wrong) and talked about how no-one would have the balls to nk him, and I began to feel as though the whole thing was one big pile of wifom with the deliberate goal of making himself too much of an enigma to be touched. I've seen scum do things like that and run to the end too often. In fact, I came out the other side feeling like I was still right about the whole thing being an act - and maybe even why he was doing it - just wrong about the fact he was scum.

2) I find it difficult to judge how much info we'd have gotten (or get now) out of a town flip from IAWY or MM.

Marco wrote:I didn't quite understand the underlined bit.

Anyway, I'm going to stop speaking for Sloonei as I feel like I'm getting cornered (not by you or anyone, by myself) into defending him. And he was actually suspicious to me until he sort of gave up on the game.

He flipped from Frog to IAWY. If IAWY then flipped scum, sloonei would look better for it.

I (personally) don't think you are speaking for sloonei so much as expressing why you suspect me. I won't push you into the same boat I was pushed in yesterday. These things ARE different.

Inawordyes wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Dyslexicon wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Would you be able to rank your scum reads somehow?

What did you think of my Soneji ISO earlier?

I could, eventually. But I still feel I want to hear more from most of them (since they are all/most pretty quiet). It still feels unsolved to me in a way, if that makes sense. But IAWY is my prefered lynch, and my strongest suspicion.

I was so tired when I read the Soneji-ISO I don't really remember. Sorry. I do appreciate you putting in the work, and I will surely get back to it. Apart from that I've looked into his ISO on my own today to check up on things. I'm not convinced by him, he's a null I'm suspicious of. He could very well be teamed with IAWY if he is indeed scum. I don't feel his push on Sig is very good. Firstly because I feel Sig is a player that would be easy to push on (easy target, for various reasons), and two because the argument doesn't seem all that strong to me and gets a bit repetative. I don't think it makes that much sense for scum!Sig to push on Soneji of all people if Sig is scum. That being said, I don't think it's impossible for Soneji to be town doing all this either. So it's inconclusive atm.

No worries, that's understandable. I feel like we're mind melding the most this phase, so I'm with you on IAWY. It would take some real town spark from IAWY to get me to move that vote, because I have not liked his recent posts (though he seems like a nice fellow).

Not a problem, let me know what you think when you get to it. Yeah, sig is an easy mislynch (or lynch in general), so I think he's particularly difficult to read. I need to figure him out myself.

Thanks for the elaboration.

Once you read me as Mafia you stop looking at me as town, so commenting that you don't like my recent posts is meaningless except as a tool to convince others to look at me the same way, which is a scummy tactic, or possibly a cop tactic but I don't think you would've been this subtle about a redcheck on me if that was a possibility.

Marco wrote:I'll admit that even I was very curious about the Frog flip near the EOD. I could've switched to IAWY myself to save Frog, after all, but the general confusion of the rapid changing votes and self-doubt led me to stay on MM.

I feel like this is also part of why I stayed on Frog in the end. I'd convinced myself that I needed to understand the enigma. I also felt (at the time) that it would give us information. Well, I feel it would have given us a lot if he flipped scum.

But in hindsight, vanilla really didn't give us info at all.

Marco wrote:

Soneji wrote:

Marco wrote:I also feel like most of the people on the Frog wagon (or those retroactively calling him scummy this phase) misrepresented him, intentionally or otherwise. This is in terms of his "inactive hunting" push. Or maybe I'm just sore you guys CFD'd one of the most active and experienced players (and one of my biggest town reads) to save two fairly inactive players (both in my scum reads).

He did inactive hunt though, to the point of actively discouraging discussion on basically anyone but them.

I think you missed out on a lot of context because you basically skimmed the whole thread in less than a couple hours. Moot point now, since Frog is already dead. I'm just finding it odd that I was the only person actually understanding him when I was the one opposing him for half of Day 1.

I disagree. I felt him very understandable, and said so, in that first half of day 1. I did not agree with his perspective, but I felt it was town.

Frog's first half of day one was great.

Marco wrote:But suspecting someone all phase and jumping off from them for town cred seems like a completely counter-active move. That would only serve to foster more suspicion on you.

If that is true, where are all the sloonei votes? Why am I the only person coming out and expressing suspicion of it? The only others views on it have been as a result of agreeing or disagreeing with my own.

Frog was town, and no-one but me is pointing at sloonei for jumping off a town wagon at all.

What if IAWY came back bad... would make sloonei look particularly good, yeah?

The Sloonei I'm used to (like my buddy in Turf Wars) might bounce his votes around, but he'd always end up on someone he felt was scum... not just move away from someone who 'might add value'.

It just doesn't feel right to me at all.

MovingPictures07 wrote:What do you think of the table, Golden? Seems Zexy is our biggest disagreement, but I have been flip-flopping on him all game, and can't get a solid feel for him at all. He's maybe even my least confident read (note to self: ISO him and Sloonei with highest priority).

My number one observation - perhaps we should be more ready to lynch people like Psi and Wilgy than we normally would be. There isn't really room to give people time in a game like this.

Wilgy's phone thing is surely true, but still convenient if scum.

Interesting that we read Zexy so differently. I think maybe he and I are simply on similar wavelengths, and so it helps me feel good about him.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Who wants a table that took too much of my time to make?

Nice table, bro.