The Syndicate

Sloonei wrote:
Golden wrote:Ugh - torn between declaring the item I got that LC claims to have given me on night 2 just to be clear about why I think it's not the corrupted jury, and the fact I genuinely think it's not in the town interest to do so...

I really wish nutella was here to say whether she got the corrupted jury.
How did Long Con give you an item on Night 2? Long Con's position in this game is based around him giving me an item on Night 2.

This was pages ago.

It's kind of bizarre that Quin and Soneji are leading the lynch and they're both sitting their on LC.

Just in case - map moves for the next four days:

South East
East
North East
Portal

Do not go west, young man.

Ugh - torn between declaring the item I got that LC claims to have given me on night 2 just to be clear about why I think it's not the corrupted jury, and the fact I genuinely think it's not in the town interest to do so...

I really wish nutella was here to say whether she got the corrupted jury.

I'm feeling very ok with either soneji or quin lynches, but I'll stick my vote where it is in any event because it helps me stay sane and avoid hammer shenanigans.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:Jay, how affirmative is that statement re: juliets? Assign a percentage.
As confident as a read can be without information.

I feel more or less the same at this point. Very civ vibes from jules today.

Soneji wrote:Holy hell, what kind of vote hopping fuckery is this. LC has straight up lied about his night actions and has now on multiple occasions just deflected suspicion by claiming his accuser hasn't caught any scum.

At least I'm around this time when people lynch me for bullshit reasons.

Why do you believe he's lied?

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Golden wrote:I need votals. I wish this was like Mafia Universe where you could call them up. Marmot, get on it.
Didn't we just get them?

Since you've missed it...

I'm having major post regression issues at work, so linki doesn't work right for me.

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Golden wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Golden wrote:Ugh, another unexpected meeting

I see a bandwagon has formed on LC. I don't think that's the right way to go.

I'll vote for soneji over LC if that's what it's coming down too. Has everyone but me moved away from Quin? Will have to look and see what others have said about our engagement earlier. I really don't like it one bit.
Why?
Gut. LC feels like town LC to me. When he's bad he picks fights he shouldn't and makes logical leaps that don't belong. When he's town he's happy go lucky and impulsive. I just don't see it.
So you're saying he hasn't picked any fights or made any notable logical leaps this game?

By 'fights he shouldn't' I mean ones that don't stack up logically. And no I haven't seen that.

I need votals. I wish this was like Mafia Universe where you could call them up. Marmot, get on it.

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Golden wrote:Ugh, another unexpected meeting

I see a bandwagon has formed on LC. I don't think that's the right way to go.

I'll vote for soneji over LC if that's what it's coming down too. Has everyone but me moved away from Quin? Will have to look and see what others have said about our engagement earlier. I really don't like it one bit.
Why?

Gut. LC feels like town LC to me. When he's bad he picks fights he shouldn't and makes logical leaps that don't belong. When he's town he's happy go lucky and impulsive. I just don't see it.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I'll be back in about 30 minutes. I'm always watching though.

Lies! I'm the watcher.

Ugh, another unexpected meeting

I see a bandwagon has formed on LC. I don't think that's the right way to go.

I'll vote for soneji over LC if that's what it's coming down too. Has everyone but me moved away from Quin? Will have to look and see what others have said about our engagement earlier. I really don't like it one bit.

speedchuck wrote:
Golden wrote:@speed - what bothers you mechanically about my claim?
Watching every night.

Pretty much every other town role has been limited in some way. For you to claim just watcher (which came up before the trend of limited power was fully apparent) gives me balance issues that I discussed earlier with JJJ. I am sure that you are a watcher, but I'm worried that it might be a mafia watcher because of the power imbalance. Call it paranoia, as I'm still relying on my read over mech stuff.

I thought that would be what it was.

Stump basically seems like the perfect role for me.

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Golden wrote:I also survived phases of townie Jay in Economics.

I did kill him in the end, though it secured my end game.
RULE NUMBER #1

TALK ABOUT ECONOMICS

Fixed that for you.

Dyslexicon wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Dyslexicon wrote:MP is here! Kill him, kill him!

Lynch MP

Good to see you too.
You should probably die though, in all earnesty.

Why?

I also survived phases of townie Jay in Economics.

I did kill him in the end, though

it secured my end game.

MovingPictures07 wrote:This phase ends at 10:00PM Central, 11:00PM Eastern, correct?

5PM NZ time, sucker.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Fuck it, might as well.

I'm the Town Busdriver, which apparently is a role that targets two people and actions affecting those two people are switched.

Night 1, Elo targeted Golden and Fredwood. So that explains your result perfectly, Golden, right?

Possibly. I targeted Jay, so it would have made more sense if she targeted Jay and Fredwood. I thought maybe she misdirected me to fred. But I find the busdriver mechanic complicated to begin with.

I tend to believe your town claim because wtf would mafia have two busdrivers.

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Golden wrote:@MP

I asked because I saw Eloh visiting Fredwood on night one (as a watcher). I did not target Fredwood, so why I ended up watching him is a mystery to me at this stage.
Oh, I see.

One of her targets that night was Fredwood, but she has a power that must target more than one person. So that's why I wasn't sure how to quite answer your question.

Based on that, your result seems accurate. Right?

Yes. Especially if the other target is me.

Oh, interesting that MP said 'technically' other. This fits with my instinct that Eloh would not have targeted Fredwood. But, in my theory, I would have expected Eloh to have targeted Jay. Odd that two people targeting separate targets would both be drawn to Fred.

@MP

I asked because I saw Eloh visiting Fredwood on night one (as a watcher). I did not target Fredwood, so why I ended up watching him is a mystery to me at this stage.

MovingPictures07 wrote:What immediate concerns or questions can I address?

Who did Eloh target night one. Fredwood, Jay, or other?

Quin wrote:
Golden wrote:
Quin wrote:If I don't protect, and instead kill nutella in the hopes that you watch her, I'm the only person who's going to show up. How pointless.
That's not what I said.
Then explain.

I'd see you and the killer, in theory.

Quin wrote:If I don't protect, and instead kill nutella in the hopes that you watch her, I'm the only person who's going to show up. How pointless.

That's not what I said.

Theory:

Quin is mafia odd night doctor. It was intended as a mechanic against the odd night vig, but that's gone. Mafia odd night doctor doesn't prevent mafia kill, so the mafia risk my watching nutella in the hope that, if I do, I hard clear Quin's doctor claim.

@speed - what bothers you mechanically about my claim?

Quin wrote:
Golden wrote:PS I don't like that I spent my whole lunch in discussion with Quin either. I'm going to try to move on to other things.

But I just have a big issue in that it felt like a big agenda to me. Like Quin felt like he could seize upon an inconsistency and got lost in an inability to accept my response.

That's all I'll say for now. I'm looking forward to other, not-me perspectives. Especially Jay. I don't like that this happened so close to end of day, it's hard for me to get objective distance.
When you ended things like that in ASOUE, I wanted to lynch you so bad. If you're civ this time too, you just don't understand me at all.

Or maybe I do. You were never inherently town aligned in ASOUE. What are you referring to with 'when things ended like that'?

Strawhenge wrote:Golden is now firmly in the greenish area of the spectrum for me. That scummy gut-read passed like a bit of overdone potato. I'm curious about your continuing case against me. I can't promise promptness with my answers, but I can answer questions if you have them.

I'm also curious about it. It's gut feeling, and for me it's definitely more a case of wanting to find time to explore your post history and feeling like you are a bit of an enigma in this game than already knowing why I feel this way. Same thing with Soneji.

juliets wrote:
Quin wrote:
juliets wrote:Soneji, Quin, and Golden:

Do you think it's likely that there is redundancy in the doctor role in the civ alignment? [Soneji you may not have gotten to the point yet that you understand why I'm asking this]
What do you mean by redundancy?
Two doctor roles that operate on odd nights.

I'd expect one was bad, if they are literally that identical.

PS I don't like that I spent my whole lunch in discussion with Quin either. I'm going to try to move on to other things.

But I just have a big issue in that it felt like a big agenda to me. Like Quin felt like he could seize upon an inconsistency and got lost in an inability to accept my response.

That's all I'll say for now. I'm looking forward to other, not-me perspectives. Especially Jay. I don't like that this happened so close to end of day, it's hard for me to get objective distance.

juliets wrote:Soneji, Quin, and Golden:

Do you think it's likely that there is redundancy in the doctor role in the civ alignment? [Soneji you may not have gotten to the point yet that you understand why I'm asking this]

As far as I'm concerned, clusterfuck means anything goes, so I see no reason why redundancy couldn't be possible within town roles. Neat fits feel more believable, but if I were designing a game like this I'd probably want loose ends and overlaps that make claims seem less believable.

Quin wrote:
Golden wrote:
Quin wrote:
Golden wrote:Oh, I see what you did. You added the word 'strictly' which I never used once.
Because that's what saying that would entail.
Bullshit. Discussion leads to reads, reads lead to a lynch. But the lynch is not arbitrary, it's considered.

But you want everyone to buy that saying I want you discussed is the exact same thing as saying I approve of your lynch, and you refuse to acknowledge that isn't true.
It is. That was a lynch shortlist list. Denying it is a joke.

Yes, it was a lynch shortlist. I've never denied it. What I'm denying is that 'you should be on a lynch shortlist for discussing which of those people we should lynch' and 'you should be lynched' are the same thing, they're not.

Quin wrote:
Golden wrote:Oh, I see what you did. You added the word 'strictly' which I never used once.
Because that's what saying that would entail.

Bullshit. Discussion leads to reads, reads lead to a lynch. But the lynch is not arbitrary, it's considered.

But you want everyone to buy that saying I want you discussed is the exact same thing as saying I approve of your lynch, and you refuse to acknowledge that isn't true.

Oh, I see what you did. You added the word 'strictly' which I never used once.

Quin wrote:Golden, you want me to say either 'The list was meant strictly for discussing' or 'A list to arbitrarily lynch in'. None of these are true. I don't like your pushing that my answer is a non-answer.

It's impossible that neither are true. What is the third option? That covers literally every possible intentvas far as I can tell.

Quin wrote:
Golden wrote:
Quin wrote:
Golden wrote:
Quin wrote:I already did. Lynching and discussion are not mutually exclusive.
A non-answer isn't an answer. It's weasel words.
I don't do weasel words.
Then answer the question straight. What do you believe jay meant - a pool for discussion or a pool to arbitrarily lynch in?
Lynching and discussing are not mutually exclusive.

Ok, have it your way.

vote quin

I don't know if it will end up here, but this is ridiculous. It feels to me like you're mad you lost someone you thought you had pocketed, and you're willing to take any way out.

You can't accuse me of wanting you dead but refuse to acknowledge the gap between discussion and lynching. The two are obviously not mutually exclusive (when's the last time you lynched someone you didn't discuss?) but the unwillingness to talk about or admit that you were wilfully interpreting jays list as a lynch list and not a list of people that deserve to be looked at it troubling.

Soneji - apparently you don't know the difference between lying and the truth. I'm prone to slip because I don't lie often, not in spite of it.

Quin wrote:
Golden wrote:
Quin wrote:I already did. Lynching and discussion are not mutually exclusive.
A non-answer isn't an answer. It's weasel words.
I don't do weasel words.

Then answer the question straight. What do you believe jay meant - a pool for discussion or a pool to arbitrarily lynch in?

Quin wrote:
Golden wrote:Now Soneji says shoot me. I'm target de jour.

I have a lot of work to get done today so I'm not going to be around to defend myself a whole lot.

Right now, I'd vote Jack. He already went down my rainbow for his approach to Quin at the start of the day. It seemed evident to me that there was a whole lot of inherent town-leaning stuff going on from Quin (and also, evident to me that Quin was hinting at doctor before he claimed, given he confirmed there was a blocker), but Jack pushed him far further than seemed natural even for someone who was suspicious of him (Jay's approach seemed much more in line with genuine suspicion tempered with sensible town play if wrong).

Now, his approach to me appears to be clinging on to the suspect du jour, but he's coming at me with alternate facts.

I don't like it at all.
I'd be happy with that if you didn't choose to reiterate your inherent town read on me afterwards.

No you wouldn't. I explained that this stuff was me seeing it in context with reading jack as bad (something very clear from this post, which is specifically about why I suspected jack). Instead of acknowledging that makes any kind of sense, you just picked new angles and rejected any connection between my read of jack and my read of you.

Quin wrote:I already did. Lynching and discussion are not mutually exclusive.

A non-answer isn't an answer. It's weasel words.

Golden wrote:I've been out all evening, so haven't caught up (soooo much posting in this game, and I didn't realise how busy I was going to be at the same time.)

A few notes on what I have seen:

1) I think it's quite possible juliets isn't claiming doctor, so lets not presume she is just by implication (unless I've missed her confirm it). There are other reasons she might have to doubt Quin's claim.

2) Jay, it's true I didn't have much of a progression in marmot. One thing you left out is the first reads post (where I had him as town) was so early that I didn't even have a read on nutella yet. I liked his map cover and the way he handled himself around it. I didn't like much else thereafter. I referenced Dune which was a game where he lacked in any real content. That's exactly what he felt like here.

On the day he was lynched, I had to be absent and had very little time to contribute, so it is an accurate observation to say I didn't push my marmot suspicion much but I didn't really push any much (even inh, who I voted for). I wish I could say who I would have voted for or what I might have contributed if I was around, but I can't. I think it would probably have been marmot, but perhaps my participation in the thread would have seen inh lynched and delayed the marmot vote. Who knows.

3) Today is a clusterfuck.

I was intending to do a proper thinking mans rainbow but I haven't really revisited people properly. So I'll do a sort of gth rainbow for now, and then tomorrow Jay can see what's different and ask me about my thought progression.

Jay
Dizzy
Sloonei
Long Con
Quin
juliets
Jack
Fred
Soneji
Eloh
Scotty
Strawhenge
Speedchuck

Quin, this is my most recent rainbow, made after those posts about you.

I trust lc more than I trust you. I'm not subbing him out because

I'm subbing him out because I really think he's town and I'm less sure about you.

You keep coming at me with different angles:

First it's that I read you based on your claim (false)
Second I had you as strong town all game (false)
Third it's because I 'approve of your lynch (the closest to true based on my words, but still a logical leap)
Fourth it's because I swapped out long con even though I should be reading you stronger (incorrect)

All through this you seem to outright reject and refuse to acknowledge the gap between thinking you should be on the table of discussion and thinking you should be lynched posthaste. And you won't answer a very basic question, I believe because you know the honest answer undermines the fact that you understand that gap full well.

It feels like you just don't like the fact I'm not supporting you unreservedly.

Quin wrote:
Golden wrote:
Quin wrote:
Golden wrote:Ok, I just isoed for my references to 'quin' and I wasn't particularly firm about my quin suspicion. But I do feel like you got a lot in early then virtually vanished and drifted by. I pointed this out a couple of times. I didn't do a rainbow in the middle.

Incomplete thought progression recording is a thing when I'm this busy, but the fact I only had you as light town AFTER I defended your entry into the thread today should speak fairly well to my progression on you.

I don't think you are unimpeachable and deserve to avoid discussion about you.
You said that I am one of four people you approved of being killed today. That has nothing to do with whether or not I think I should be the focus of discussion.
You said it here.
That was in response to you throwing shade at me for thinking I'm unimpeachable. Try again.

I don't care what it's in response to. You're trying to claim that I'm saying 'I approve of your lynch' rather than 'I think you should be in the discussion' and saying the latter is irrelevant.

Answer the question - what do you think jay meant?

Quin wrote:
Golden wrote:Ok, I just isoed for my references to 'quin' and I wasn't particularly firm about my quin suspicion. But I do feel like you got a lot in early then virtually vanished and drifted by. I pointed this out a couple of times. I didn't do a rainbow in the middle.

Incomplete thought progression recording is a thing when I'm this busy, but the fact I only had you as light town AFTER I defended your entry into the thread today should speak fairly well to my progression on you.

I don't think you are unimpeachable and deserve to avoid discussion about you.
You said that I am one of four people you approved of being killed today. That has nothing to do with whether or not I think I should be the focus of discussion.

You said it here.

Quin wrote:
Golden wrote:
Quin wrote:
Golden wrote:
Quin wrote:
Golden wrote:Yeah, my reasons for the early strong town read had fallen off a cliff.

Linki @quin - I did not say that at all. Jay said 'I might kill you', but being entirely honest, what do you think jay meant by that - an arbitrary selection from that list or choosing a pool of people to discuss? Because I sure interpreted it as the latter and I think jay would back me up in saying that's how he intended it.
Replace 'kill' with 'lynched'.

Which words am I adding to back a misrepresentation?
The ones where i apparently said I 'approved' of you being 'killed'. You're putting jays word in my mouth.
You approved of me being in that list. That is evident because you spoke out against Long Con, but not me.

I am not on Jay's list for the shits and giggles. He is looking to vote for one of the four of the people on that list.

Do you deny either of these statements?
Nope. Both of those statements are correct.
Then you approved of my being lynched.

I approve of you being examined and discussed. At the end of that process, I am open to the possibility that my conclusion could be that I approve of your lynch.

You seem to have an issue with me being ok with you being in the discussion at all.

Quin wrote:
Golden wrote:And what's more you're doing it pedantically to imply that jay (and by extension, i) would choose from the list arbirtarily and without further thought.

Answer my question - what do you think jay honestly meant - a list for discussion or equally happy with an arbitrary kill of any person in that list?
No I'm not. Whether you and Jay were to choose arbitrarily from the group is irrelevant to what we're talking about.

No it's not. You're the one whose claiming it wasn't a list for discussion.

Quin wrote:
Golden wrote:
Quin wrote:
Golden wrote:Yeah, my reasons for the early strong town read had fallen off a cliff.

Linki @quin - I did not say that at all. Jay said 'I might kill you', but being entirely honest, what do you think jay meant by that - an arbitrary selection from that list or choosing a pool of people to discuss? Because I sure interpreted it as the latter and I think jay would back me up in saying that's how he intended it.
Replace 'kill' with 'lynched'.

Which words am I adding to back a misrepresentation?
The ones where i apparently said I 'approved' of you being 'killed'. You're putting jays word in my mouth.
You approved of me being in that list. That is evident because you spoke out against Long Con, but not me.

I am not on Jay's list for the shits and giggles. He is looking to vote for one of the four of the people on that list.

Do you deny either of these statements?

Nope. Both of those statements are correct.

And what's more you're doing it pedantically to imply that jay (and by extension, i) would choose from the list arbirtarily and without further thought.

Answer my question - what do you think jay honestly meant - a list for discussion or equally happy with an arbitrary kill of any person in that list?

Quin wrote:
Golden wrote:Yeah, my reasons for the early strong town read had fallen off a cliff.

Linki @quin - I did not say that at all. Jay said 'I might kill you', but being entirely honest, what do you think jay meant by that - an arbitrary selection from that list or choosing a pool of people to discuss? Because I sure interpreted it as the latter and I think jay would back me up in saying that's how he intended it.
Replace 'kill' with 'lynched'.

Which words am I adding to back a misrepresentation?

The ones where i apparently said I 'approved' of you being 'killed'. You're putting jays word in my mouth.

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