The Syndicate

speedchuck wrote:

Golden wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:We played one RYM game where the host just entirely turned off the restrictions against dead posting -- dead players could post whatever they wanted on or off-topic. It was actually the same game where I blew up a thousand people.

That was... interesting.

I like it as a design space, it could be interesting.

G-Man's also talked about the game where people just stay as full participants when they die, which is also interesting.

Both are harder to balance though. And the wifom must be intense.

Even better. Allow info drops in this dead-participant game, but never flip roles on death. Closed setup.

Wow. I love this idea. Now the question is how to balance it...

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:We played one RYM game where the host just entirely turned off the restrictions against dead posting -- dead players could post whatever they wanted on or off-topic. It was actually the same game where I blew up a thousand people.

That was... interesting.

I like it as a design space, it could be interesting.

G-Man's also talked about the game where people just stay as full participants when they die, which is also interesting.

Both are harder to balance though. And the wifom must be intense.

Honestly it's quin that deserves the honorary win.

Sloonei wrote:I enjoy being quiet as a host. I'll answer any questions that need answering, but beyond that I stay as far away from the action as I can. Most of the fun in hosting is in watching players try to crack the nut you've given them. The less you say, the harder they have to work.

Perhaps I just have a knack for creating more nuts when I talk

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I think there's a tendency for players and hosts alike to severely underestimate the influence they can have on the game with certain behaviors.

I also want to directly address this.

Provide dead players or the host are staying within fair rules, when they influence the game, that's the problem of the active players. As a player, one has to figure out how to deal with it to not let it influence you.

I've seen plenty of tunneling based on this kind of external information and be wrong nearly every time. Perhaps I've just been brought up in a community where you quickly realise that as much information as you might perceive people are providing while you're playing - the reality is that if you base decisions off it you're probably going to be entirely wrong. I think active players severely overestimate the actual value and relevance of the posts that end up influencing them. That's not to say they don't have influence... just that it's on the people who are influenced.

Dead on-topic posting, host information... these things are part of the design space that should be available to hosts as well, provided it's balanced.

Having said that... I did host a game where dead posting was outlawed, and I had to put it in bold and red in the rules and PM players to remind them, because I know that unless you are that forceful about it, our culture here is one that allows deadposting and you'll just see it happen naturally.

My host philosophy - my interaction is a deliberate mindfuck - if you read into it it could be to your benefit or your detriment. I'm probably rare, but it actually irritates me when people won't interact as hosts or deadies, and I actively dislike hosts who won't answer questions to all in thread and interact with their players. Coming to this site is supposed to be fun. It's not a maths exam. Heck, where I came from, reading the host posts could provide you with game information - and to me thats entirely fair play because hosts put in effort to writing the posts and want you to read them, and the information was equal for all factions. In addition, you'd banter with the host, and that was fine - the host should want EVERY player to try their best, and I think having banter with your players keeps them engaged and hoping to succeed.

Having said that, dead posting and non-player posting MUST be off topic. No exceptions. But 'rezz please' has been a long accepted thing to say. And hosts have to absolutely watch what they say behind the scenes to make sure they aren't giving anyone an advantage. But the day I stop bantering with my player set is the day I stop hosting.

Silver Lantern wrote:So all members of the town are considered winners? Is that typical of this site? On my site only those alive At the end win, but this certainly encourages more selfless behavior. I think it's good.

Thanks for the Game Spirit and everyone. It was also interesting seeing the spoiler spread sheet and then following along.

Not in every game... depends on the host and the game theme. It is good for selfless play, though.

juliets wrote:

Sloonei wrote:

Golden wrote:

Sloonei wrote:I'm really curious to see what the banner for this game will look like (and I'm excited to display it ). I have to give sprityo some props for the theme. I've never seen a host invent an entire original world and story for their theme before. I was really impressed by that and it was a lot of fun to play in a game whose flavor was entirely unique to this mafia experience.

Oh, you have to sign up for LC games more often...

I've never played an LC game.

Oh wow, you must play the next one. To be fair though the most spectacular ones that I remember are LC & BR games. He doesn't do it alone.

Indeed. The LC/BR ones are the greatest.

Sloonei wrote:I'm really curious to see what the banner for this game will look like (and I'm excited to display it ). I have to give sprityo some props for the theme. I've never seen a host invent an entire original world and story for their theme before. I was really impressed by that and it was a lot of fun to play in a game whose flavor was entirely unique to this mafia experience.

Oh, you have to sign up for LC games more often...

Long Con wrote:Did I do wrong?

No. Please never change.

Can I say, I think Soneji is one of the most underrated players going. He's been lynched as both a baddie and town for his odd surging posting style, but in this game I felt like he was mislynched (even though he was bad). He was OUR best choice of lynch (baddie team) for wifom purposes, if the forge had worked.

juliets wrote:I don't think I'll play another game like this because my lack of knowledge on these terms and ways of playing was a real hindrance. I'm sorry it was so annoying for you watchers. I don't think you understand how stressful this last day was.

Quite the opposite - you were post-nutella MVP in my opinion.

I really enjoyed being in this game but being in chatzy with quin post-death was just as fun.

Don't let quin fool you, he's bad to the bone!

Seriously though, the funniest thing that happened all game was jay assuming we had a hard bus style because quin and I both flipped bad together. Quin flipping bad was my plan to be town read again.

sloon I never lied about my targets - I had no idea what I was doing as a watcher lol, especially a mafia one.

Without wanting to criticise sprit at all (shit happens, he did a marvellous job of fixing things up as best he could, and he was a fun and good host at all times) - we had forged soneji and when he came back as his actual role by accident we were done like a dinner. Fred did great to hang on as long as he did.

Well played civs.

Thanks for being a great teammate quin!

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Fredwood wrote:I lied and ruined my poetic sendoff, but I caught that at the end.

I know it's a one-shot, they don't know it's a one shot. Even if I say it's a one shot, how likely are they to believe me anyway?

So they kill you while you're vanilla and the active roles press on. That's a good thing!

At this point it's strategic critique which isn't the greatest determinant of alignment. So we'll see how I feel in the morning. Maybe I will solve the game in a dream and all of you will witness my great epiphany.

last night I dreamed I worked for a large private law firm. More of a nightmare really.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

speedchuck wrote:

sprityo wrote:I will be gone in one hour, so the day might end on time, might not. If any shenanigans happen, I'm hoping Epi will be able to take care of things while I'm gone.

I will return after midnight (EST)

sprityo wrote: Day ends in 48 hours or at 11pm EST 3/1/2017. THIS IS THE FINAL 48 HOUR DAY! Days will now be 24 hours long starting Day 7.[/size]

(Posting this a little early again tonight, since im tired.)[/color]

Give us the full day please.

Haven't caught up yet, busy, but I was making sure deadline wasn't now-ish

sprityo, it's not March 1st tonight!

How dull

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I don't really think Dizzy looks like a good candidate to be an independent at face value, particularly not one who would be LMS or otherwise anti-town. They've played the whole game more care-free than anyone, but not without still providing a great deal of useful reads content. I see someone who is motivated to solve the game by necessity, not for appearances. They've not been afraid to poke other players regardless of who; they've rocked the boat.

What do others see in Dizzy that they fear might be indy-applicable?

The theory being that someone who needs to survive until the end wouldn't try to solve the game, or?

I also don't think Dizzy is the best candidate for the indy, but I don't quite understand why you think it's unlikely.

speedchuck wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

speedchuck wrote:You've been saying that for three days now.

What does that mean to you?

Mostly that it's annoying?

I mean, it's a valid line of reasoning if he wants to actually evaluate it, but as it is, it just feels like pointless doubtcasting. I explained very early on why I posted what I posted. If that explanation isn't good enough, fine. Do something else about it.

I can understand that perspective.

But I'm not going to leave you out of my reads or give no explanation on why you're there just because it hasn't changed. In that sense, there is entirely a point - it's making sure people know that I am still where I was on you, that nothing has shifted.

It is annoying though, I'll give you that.

I don't want to reevaluate *that* point. I want to evaluate if it's an isolated situation. What it told me was that you are sly and it takes a good hard look to get past your friendly tone and find whatever pointers there could be in your game.

speedchuck wrote:

Golden wrote:

juliets wrote: My suspicion is sort of residual because even though I tone read speedchuck (and did even then) I still don't like this approach to me, which seemed intellectually dishonest. I'm placing a marker down because if this game doesn't resolve quickly I think a full iso is needed to see if he's done any other similar things.

You've been saying that for three days now.

Yep. It still applies.

I'm not saying I'm going to do the iso today either (because I'm not). I need to find time for it, and time has been unfortunately tricky for me. That's why you've never gone either down or up - you're just sticking in the same spot which in my rainbow would be right in the middle.

It's a big relief discovering the vest wasn't from Soneji. It's given me a new resolve.

juliets wrote:Golden in general I like your reads list but I do have a question. Can you be more specific about what posts of speedchuck seem wonky? I'll read back on him and see if I can identify what you're talking about but it would sure help if you could point to something even if it's just a general statement. I've been reading him as light civ. I agree I wish Fred would vote BUT I can understand how he got stuck in linki this last round and I think Soneji using him as a "whipping boy" helps clear him for me.

So, I haven't had time to go back and read him properly, which if I ever get time and he is seriously in my frame, I will do.

But the reason why is, back on day one, he accused me of 'doing nothing' when I saw Dizzy as having made a genuine slip. Now, that was ok when I first read it (except that he snipped bits out of my post) you can go back and read a little bit from here onwards where I end up having a little spat with Jay over it.

I resolved it with speedchuck pretty quickly, but then as I read back and saw the context more, I realised that he had posted his original post against me after having read much further and so he understood already exactly what I did, and why I did it, and that made his claim that I 'did nothing' look worse in hindsight, as I explained here.

My suspicion is sort of residual because even though I tone read speedchuck (and did even then) I still don't like this approach to me, which seemed intellectually dishonest. I'm placing a marker down because if this game doesn't resolve quickly I think a full iso is needed to see if he's done any other similar things.

Dyslexicon wrote:@Golden, you're being dense about the fact that it's me that's having your back, and not Soneji.

Thanks Dizzy! I had no idea that you were even hinting at that. I think people expect me to be great at picking up the subtle but I'm often not.

Quin wrote:

Golden wrote:Why should a mafia doctor be able to prevent a mafia kill?

On this one, it's not even a case of inventing something. I've seen this role before. Far from tinfoil, it makes complete sense with an odd night vig.

I don't have a 'poe argument'. I don't even really know what you mean.

Show me which game you've seen this game in before. See the latter half of your stuff for your PoE argument. Apparently I'm 'handling it differently'.

Oh, yeah. I don't know if that's alignment indicative, or even if my instinct is correct. But I feel like you were much more calm about it in Red vs Blue.

Why should a mafia doctor be able to prevent a mafia kill?

On this one, it's not even a case of inventing something. I've seen this role before. Far from tinfoil, it makes complete sense with an odd night vig.

I don't have a 'poe argument'. I don't even really know what you mean.

A quick rainbow list with where my heads at. Actually, I won't make it a rainbow list, I'll make it a power rankings. Most town to least town.

1. Jay - confirmed town, done.
2. MP - claimed town busdriver. Substantiated my watching results. Mafia having two busdrivers would be bizarre. I see this as all but mechanically cleared.
3. Scotty - I've never heard of a stump. I'm betting Scotty never has either. I guess he could have a teammate that has heard of it, but all in all the claim seems unlikely if false. Baddies seem to have no use for the role - in fact it seems it would be mechanically broken (or am I wrong? Anyone more familiar?).
4. juliets - everything about her feels like town jules to me

5. Dizzy - it's all vibes, but Dizzy doesn't feel bad to me. I put a gap here because Dizzy is the first person I could see being a town-threat indy, the four above don't seem to even fit that role.
6. Speedchuck - More work needed. Some responses from him leave me feeling wonky about him.
7. Fred - what am I supposed to do with a guy who doesn't vote? Fred is another candidate for indy. Would need to look at connections to Soneji/LC to judge him for baddie, but he seems very aloof.
8. Strawhenge - Jay said 'I'm inclined not to judge him on meta because he's had a one and a half year break'. My first game back after three years I nailed a baddie on day one and called out two of his teammates for their connection. My memories of Strawhenge are that he seemed more engaged and more convincing. Having said that, this has been a dog of a thread to keep up with, and I'm very mindful of the fact that he has been genuinely behind. Another candidate for indy.
9. Quin - I don't think Quin is indy. I also believe his doctor claim. For me its all about whether or not he is town doctor or mafia doctor. The latter works in my mind and given juliets various conversations I'm inclined to be much more suspicious of Quin than juliets. He's also treated being in the PoE here differently to how he's treated it in other places, in my estimation. He was much more aggressive about it.
10. Long Con - confirmed scum. Sorry.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Please walk me through your strategy for watching those players when you did.

I figured my best strategy was probably finding people who I could confirm as town. At first (with jay) I went for someone I thought the town might help, but since then I've gone with the top three target (in my opinion) for people who might mess with them.

Also, the reason I was trying to keep this quiet is because with this knowledge my role is more or less useless. Keeping the perception I was a standard watcher could have drawn the kill away from others. But obviously that didn't work.

Night 2 was eloh.

I've never seen anyone except on Fred.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Golden wrote:PS I appreciate all the speculation about whether or not 'dense with golden' information is alignment-indicative but the truth is sometimes I'm dense with information. But in this game it's been a struggle keeping up so if anyone thinks there is information I'm being dense with - just tell me what I'm missing, and that will solve the problem.

Your targets. Lemme have 'em.

Long con
Jack
Have to look back for night 2 now.

I can't see kills.

juliets wrote:

Golden wrote:Vote golden

I agree it's for the best.

Why is it for the best if you are town?

If I end up at lylo, people would end up lynching me instead of the baddie.

PS I appreciate all the speculation about whether or not 'dense with golden' information is alignment-indicative but the truth is sometimes I'm dense with information. But in this game it's been a struggle keeping up so if anyone thinks there is information I'm being dense with - just tell me what I'm missing, and that will solve the problem.

Scotty wrote:What does the protecting vest give you? Exclusively immunity to a gun shot? Lynch immunity? Or do you not know?

Why do you think Soneji would give you that if you were town?

What doesn't make sense in this equation is if you are bad, why say that you received an item on night 2 at all? If Soneji were to get lynched, we would automatically point fingers at you.

I don't know. I was just told I had a protective vest. I assumed it came from a townie who wouldn't to give me protection from a nk.

I don't know why soneji would give it to me. Is there any evidence that it protects against the gun? His role did say gun shoots through protection. Maybe he was just having fun with me.

This whole thing feels like a stitch up so people would automatically point fingers at me, to me. Having said that, though, be honest - if you get to lylo with me who are you voting for? I'm now in a position where keeping me alive long term feels untenable.

Scotty wrote:

Golden wrote:Vote golden

I agree it's for the best.

If you're town, then give us reads as a legacy. Don't throw a pity parade.

Of course I'll give legacy reads.

Scotty wrote:

Golden wrote:

Scotty wrote:That being said, should we follow Golden's directions if we think him bad?

Because I've let you all down before? The only time you went wrong is when you didn't follow my directions.

Golden, who's bad?

Long Con and at least one other person. I still think quite probably Quin. It also strikes me that Soneji and Quin were both sitting on Long Con near the end of yesterday, so it wouldn't surprise me if all three of yesterday's candidates were bad but LC is the one they are least worried about seeing dead.

Beyond that, who knows. Not juliets, not Jay, not MP. I still think probably not dizzy.

Vote golden

I agree it's for the best.

Scotty wrote:That being said, should we follow Golden's directions if we think him bad?

Because I've let you all down before? The only time you went wrong is when you didn't follow my directions.

Dyslexicon wrote:Also, can we move past the who did what on what night? Golden is being a bit dense about taking in information. And everyone is confused about something they don't even need to care about.

What information am I dense about taking in?

juliets wrote:

Scotty wrote:

Golden wrote:I do have the vest.

I've been played like a fiddle. I know I have to be lynched after lc, I can't be at lylp at this point. It sucks.

But I do think we are on solid track to win this despite me, so go town!

So you say you've been set up? That Mafia spent a night phase- Soneji's only real night phase to use his power- to give you a protective vest, and you're good? That's like taking antibiotics for bronchitis when I sprain my knee. What a 'Long Con' that would be.

Golden, if Soneji gave you the vest on night 2 then who gave Sloonei the gun on night 2? Am I just confused about the night 2 actions?

I don't know. I just know what I got.

My watcher role is not overpowered.

I do have the vest.

I've been played like a fiddle. I know I have to be lynched after lc, I can't be at lylp at this point. It sucks.

But I do think we are on solid track to win this despite me, so go town!

soneji is the right call.

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Golden wrote:

Long Con wrote:Golden.... no. I didn't give you anything.

Oh, I misunderstood.

Where did my thing come from then? Did I get the corrupted jury, or does someone else have my back?

Why are you discussing this right now?

Relevant to LC. You're right, LC is over. It's still relevant in case I die though. Sorry.

Long Con wrote:Golden.... no. I didn't give you anything.

Oh, I misunderstood.

Where did my thing come from then? Did I get the corrupted jury, or does someone else have my back?

Unless what I got IS the corrupted jury.

I thought LC was claiming to give me a second item, but maybe what he means is the second person got the corrupted jury. But, it was not called the corrupted jury, and the map was called the map.

This, sloon.

Golden wrote:

Long Con wrote:Look, someone who isn't Sloonei got an item Night 2. Period. I'm not saying "speak up" because it could make you a target... but at least speak up if my life is on the line.

I just asked you if you gave anyone else something at any time and you said no!

I did get an item on night 2 as well. That's why I was asking. It's not a gun. It would quite possibly qualify as an invention.