The Syndicate

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Marco wrote:It should be noted that zexy has not really been engaging in the game since after the first half of day 1. I'm still waiting on those ISO reads he promised around 72 hours ago.

And yet I was a leading lynch candidate yesterday for not being around the first half of Day 1 and engaging the second half. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

People do have really short memories in mafia, myself included.

a2thezebra wrote:My town read of ika partially comes from his insistence on his reads and his total lack of hesitance to call people out for any little thing, similar to myself.

Dyslexicon wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:Stop it, you're hurting my town read of Zexy.

I may have done something else stupid as well, but I don't care cause yolo. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't understand why people have him as a townread in general. He was active at the start, did some questioning, but not many conclusive thoughts. All null imo. And then he writes a catch up now and then and doesn't follow up for the longest time. Such skating wow.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:For those of you who like to talk about scum-slips, town-slips, and fake town-slips, let's talk about this one.

Marco wrote:Also, I can imagine Vigilante taking out Epignosis. While the Frog voters all had their own reasons, it definitely felt like Epignosis' vote was what resulted in the CFD. That along with Long Con's activity, I can imagine Vigilante killing Epi. Though it would have to be someone who's not used to being Vig. I think most people believe it's better to save their Vig kills for more conclusive targets. Epi had admittedly not caught up and I doubt a Vigilante would go after him last night even if they suspected him.

Marco came into Day 2 thinking that a town vig made the extra kill, and not acknowledging the possibility of a mafia vig kill.

Legit town-slip, or fake town-slip

Inawordyes wrote:

Marco wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Marco wrote:What're the thoughts on golden's reveal that he noticed MM hinting MP was PR day 1. And he scum read MM even though scum didn't attack MP last night.

Golden acknowledged that all the events relevant to this topic happened on Day 2. If he is scum, he couldn't have gone into Night 1 with this knowledge.

Ah. Strange that he called it early game then.

Anyway, my assertion was that if he thought you hinted MP being PR, then his scum read on you is odd as you would've attacked MP. A bit moot now, since he apparently meant today, not early game.

@IAWY, I'm curious about why you suspect me. Looking forward to your explanation.

I don't suspect you. Haha that's the problem, I have a null read on you, so I want to hear from you (specifically right now in this case because I heard from Golden already and you two are going back and forth). It's not because I find you scummy, I just want some info since I'm lacking so much at the moment. I fully intend to change it to someone else.

Addendum: That's fine, I can focus on someone else for the moment if you won't be able to give anything. I don't want barebones, I want in-depth so that I can get a firsthand sense of your thinking and reasoning. So now I need to figure out who's actually here right now haha.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Marco wrote:What're the thoughts on golden's reveal that he noticed MM hinting MP was PR day 1. And he scum read MM even though scum didn't attack MP last night.

Golden acknowledged that all the events relevant to this topic happened on Day 2. If he is scum, he couldn't have gone into Night 1 with this knowledge.

ika wrote:hey golden, why are you misrepresenting silvers stances? she never voted sonji becasue he didnt post anythign yet. she will go after low content lurkers day1 but not a non-poster, there is a distinct diffrence in that.

not only that but she has fully explained how she thinks MPs interactions, case, and entire play is jsut full of scum motivation.

not only that now, he has said that it is scum vig who did the kill and not considered it to be town vig. sig did the same, the only way this can be is that one of two thing are true

A) they are scum who know its scum vig
B) they are PR where a scum vig is exsiting

Golden wrote:If you want to take me to task for a mistake - Frog was the mistake. Not Silverwolf.

And I know you're no scrub yourself. But, you know, you won't catch any implication from me that you are anything less than stellar. I think everyone in this game that I know or who I've come to know in playing this game is basically stellar. This is a next level lineup.

Golden wrote:But there is always a question of who will be lynched. I don't think it should ever be taken as clear cut that someone won't be lynched. Did Frog see a Frog lynch coming?

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:How is it irrelevant? A mistake is when you make an error. And you made an error in judging SilverWolf's post.

No I didn't. It got me a town read. There's a much higher chance I ended up scum reading her without it, thanks to her tunneling on MP, if I hadn't engaged with her over that original vote.

Engaging is how you develop reads. Engaging is not a mistake. An incorrect read that leads to a discussion that leads to a better read is, for me, exactly how things should work.

Golden wrote:This is why I can't understand your whole 'it could be avoided' thing. It's like.. why would I want to avoid the discussion that allowed me to get a correct read on silverwolf? Makes no sense to me.

Golden wrote:Silver never really seriously suspected me, at least I didn't feel so. I can tell the difference between someone who seems fixated on me and someone who just seems to be having a nibble at me. Also, don't forget that when I was arguing with zebra I had three votes and noone else had more than one.

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:Are you basically saying that it was just that your emotions overtook you?

In a sense, I guess you could say that's what I'm saying. Not anger or that kind of emotion. Just, there comes a point where I stop caring - even though I also simultaneously do really care. I don't know if that really makes sense, but it is factually whats going on it those posts. It's the dichotomy of trying to convince someone I'm good while simultaneously not caring at all about who dies. Even if I didn't care at all about the game and its outcome, I'd still fight for my life in the game. I just... can't not!

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:There never was a question of her getting lynched though.

Who says? Just because she didn't have votes then? That was her argument too. You never know who might find what suspicious later. Frankly, I knew there would be some people who found her approach to me in that conversation suspicious and would come down on my side. Who is to say zebra wouldn't end up lynched. I can't predict things with such accuracy.

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:I assumed the hierarchy was there for a reason.

It is. The people I call 'mild town read' are the ones that are the weakest. The ones that are 'moderate town read' I have more than a slight lean on, and the 'strong town read' I feel very strongly about.

I don't rank people within categories, if thats what you mean. That would feel arbitrary to me.

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:I think it's a good thing that it leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Regardless of your alignment here, you'll be less likely to make a similar "mistake" in the future. Her vote looked very innocent to me. And I wasn't the only one, either. Placing a vote on someone as a "Hey, how's it hanging, I'm interested in hearing from you" is pretty common, especially on Day 1.

Bullshit. I didn't make a mistake. The mistake is to think my questioning of silverwolf was anything less than reasonable and necessary.

The fact the vote looked innocent to you is entirely irrelevant. You don't get to be the judge of what is innocent or not to ME. I do not think it looked innocent. I don't think it looked like a 'standard place-holder vote'. I thought it looked VERY SUSPICIOUS. I've explained very clearly to you why, in very clear terms. I couldn't have possibly explained it more clearly.

Golden wrote:If you want to continue pushing the angle on the idea that I couldn't possibly be justified in holding a suspicion I genuinely held, then the only conclusion I can draw is that you are just like Frog - someone who thinks only your view of the world is correct and everyone else who has a different view doesn't know how to play the game.

If that's the case, I wouldn't have won the most games here last year, I wouldn't have won Syndicate MVP, I wouldn't be the nom for the championships. Get out of your own ass and stop calling my genuine suspicions 'mistakes'. I'm allowed to hold them. You don't get to tell me who I do or don't suspect.

Golden wrote:Frog read - since when is 'mild town read' the same as 'such a high town read'? It's literally the bottom possible town read.

Golden wrote:I have no problem taking credit for Frog's lynch. I think that is an accurate read.

As for not engaging with him... I don't think thats entirely fair. I may not have asked him direct questions, but I did make direct statements in response to him that he didn't really engage with. I didn't really get the sense he was engaging with criticisms of him. But, you are right I didn't give him the same time of day as Silverwolf. A large part of this is down to timing - 48 hours to go versus, however many I had with Frog which was very few. The engagement he was giving was all wrong to me - all about how great he was and how terrible the site was... just not the kind of stuff that I can easily find a way to engage with.

Golden wrote:Lets call that...

Something for tomorrow time for me to sleep.

But thanks for doing it.

SilverWolf wrote:I also gave another reason for not liking him if you read my posts. I successfully called out the lurkers in Turf Wars as town when they turned out to be scum. I'm trying to get more out of MP. Zexy pinged me as town almost right away for transparent thought process I agreed with which is why I asked you about it. Your defensiveness of being questioned and deflecting onto me is noted.

Golden wrote:Me chasing down my suspicions and making people actually account for them cannot 'be avoided'. It's kind of insulting for you to minimise my suspicion in that way, but it also goes to show that you are not familiar with how often I have 10 page fights with people when I don't think their responses are adding up.

Your argument with Silver was blown up and started over a simple misunderstanding. Silver's emotional responses didn't help but I can't get over how weird your sudden push on her was. It basically started when you called her out and voted for her. [1][2]

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:Hold up nelly.

Defensiveness of being questioned? I played it straight up and down the line with the questions you asked me, I wasn't being defensive in the slightest. I didn't avoid the questions... but you just did then.

As for 'playing it on to you' - so, I can't suspect you then?

I didn't no u you. You gave no indication you suspected me. And based on a plain reading of the questions you asked me (read them again - you didn't say whose content you liked parts of - I assumed you meant my case on zexy), I thought you agreed with my zexy read, not disagreed with it, so there was hardly a need for me to get defensive.

Golden wrote:VOTE SILVERWOLF

And this was prompted by her saying, "Your defensiveness of being questioned and deflecting onto me is noted." [3]

Spoiler: show

Silverwolf wrote:

Golden wrote:

Silverwolf wrote:

Marco wrote:I feel like Silverwolf's posts have a very "drifter" quality to them. Just moving along, picking random posts and responding to them. There seems to be no desire to interact beyond the occasional observation or to engage anyone. The participation seems superficial. What do others think?

VOTE SILVERWOLF

Considering I'm catching up and responding to what I feel I need to, this is a fair assumption but it's wrong. I'm catching up. Unfortunately, RL has made it hard for me to stay focused on this game.

I will say, I think Marco v Frog is TvT. Sloonei vs Sig-I like Sloonei better and I will look into this more and elaborate soon. MP needs to post more content and not keep making excuses for not doing so. Dyslexicon looks town also. Goldem-can you go into detail on Zexy as scum? I liked some of the content there so what am I missing?

MOVING PICTURES

You need to post more.

Also, I'm around if anyone has any questions or wants to talk for about an hour or so.

I don't like this vote at all.

MP has been up front about his schedule and exactly when he will be trying to post. There are people who haven't posted at all. Feels like you are picking on the person who has self-admitted they will be quiet. And anyway, why exactly does he, specifically, need to post more?

As far as the detail of Zexy as scum - I don't know what you're missing? I've posted the reason I am pinged by him. There isn't anything more to it because it's a relatively small ping, what would you like me to explain more? What was the 'some content' that you liked? Was there part of it you didn't like?

I also gave another reason for not liking him if you read my posts. I successfully called out the lurkers in Turf Wars as town when they turned out to be scum. I'm trying to get more out of MP. Zexy pinged me as town almost right away for transparent thought process I agreed with which is why I asked you about it. Your defensiveness of being questioned and deflecting onto me is noted.

It was strange how defensive you got before you both even exchanged 4 posts. I also feel like you stretched it with some of your assertions like she implied you NO-Ud her just because she said, "Your defensiveness of being questioned and deflecting onto me is noted."

The bulk of the argument was because she felt you put words in her mouth (I know you felt misrepresented at points too, but you weren't getting that agitated about that bit) and it all started with you getting super defensive over what felt like nothing IMO. Look at [4] again. Do you still feel like she was saying you NO-Ud or even suspected her?

Spoiler: show

Silverwolf wrote:I also gave another reason for not liking him if you read my posts. I successfully called out the lurkers in Turf Wars as town when they turned out to be scum. I'm trying to get more out of MP. Zexy pinged me as town almost right away for transparent thought process I agreed with which is why I asked you about it. Your defensiveness of being questioned and deflecting onto me is noted.

You finding the MP vote very scummy also looked odd to me [6]. It just looked like a place-holder to directly engage MP. Sort of a "Anybody home?"

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:You clearly don't welcome questioning. I asked you a number and you told me off for getting defensive instead of answering them.

I did not 'immediately attack you as scum' - as I've pointed out. I'm not 'looking for a reason to vote you'.

It's really simple SW - I don't like your MP vote AT ALL, or your reasoning for it. I find it as scummy as heck. Trying to make it out like I'm being personal against you is not helpful to me, it doesn't help prove me wrong. Just engage with me on a game level. If you are emotionally frustrated at taking my vote, please talk to Dom. I want clear headed SW as much as the next person. I have a lot of respect for your town game.

But, you do not get a pass from suspicion. You cannot ask me not to suspect you because it will 'distract you'. Taking suspicion is part of the game.

I have read your 'fucking posts', so stop telling me to iso you to understand you.

I realize your reasons for finding it scummy but I felt they were a bit exaggerated. Her vote wasn't about prodding an inactive player and settling on MP. It was about prodding MP to be active. And after that, it felt like you constantly kept trying to nitpick and find any reasons to suspect her. [7][8]

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:

Silverwolf wrote:Golden, I suggest you read my fucking posts before you ask questions. One thing that will irritate me to now end is not getting time to read, post, and develop my reads. You immediately attacking me is scum motivation as it distracts me from doing that. Anyone who knows me knows that. I welcome interaction, I welcome questioning, but being attacked, voted, misrepped, for simply asking a question will set me off and piss me off to no end.

You clearly don't welcome questioning. I asked you a number and you told me off for getting defensive instead of answering them.

I did not 'immediately attack you as scum' - as I've pointed out. I'm not 'looking for a reason to vote you'.

It's really simple SW - I don't like your MP vote AT ALL, or your reasoning for it. I find it as scummy as heck. Trying to make it out like I'm being personal against you is not helpful to me, it doesn't help prove me wrong. Just engage with me on a game level. If you are emotionally frustrated at taking my vote, please talk to Dom. I want clear headed SW as much as the next person. I have a lot of respect for your town game.

But, you do not get a pass from suspicion. You cannot ask me not to suspect you because it will 'distract you'. Taking suspicion is part of the game.

I have read your 'fucking posts', so stop telling me to iso you to understand you.

Golden wrote:Silverwolf, you said you found MP cautious about avoiding a hammer vote. Yes, you did. One post about MP before your vote post.

Here is the sum total (snips) of what you said about MP in your vote post.

Silverwolf wrote:MP needs to post more content and not keep making excuses for not doing so.

MOVING PICTURES

You need to post more.

You did not call back to the post you made ages ago about his hammer vote being suspicious. You made it very clear your vote was because you felt he 'needed to post more content' and was 'making excuses for not doing so'.

Do you really think it is unreasonable for me to believe your vote is for the latter reason, not the former? How is it fair to say I'm misrepresenting your vote when you, yourself, represented it entirely as being about him 'making excuses' for not posting content.

Here is MP's last post:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Just a heads up regarding my schedule, for those that care: I'll be around in about 5.5 hours from now to post Smashfest matches, but I may or may not be sufficiently finished with work by then to call it a night; if I am, I'll check in here, and no earlier. If I am not, I'll be back sometime later this evening. See you all sometime.

This does not read like an 'excuse' to me. It reads like a stated fact about when he will be back to the thread. I do not like that you represent it as an 'excuse'.

Ika says you care about and understand rl things. It does not seem like you do in respect of MP? Do you have any reason to believe he is not telling the truth about his schedule?

And after things cooled down, you pointed out that Silver never actually convinced you but you still town read her. [9]

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:

Dyslexicon wrote:However my question is: Golden, do you still suspect Silver?
I also note that Golden is slightly apologetic in this interaction for "ticking Silver off" (which I don't think he needs to be cause he did nothing wrong). He may just be a polite young gentleman, but it reads a bit guilty mindset.
Like, I find it really hard to trust Golden, and I don't know whether I'm paranoid or not.

Yes.

The thing that is most suspicious to me about silver is not the vote itself, per se. Just look at the post I made where I said I didn't like the vote, and then her response.

I asked a whole lot of questions of her after saying I didn't like the vote at all. Her response was to call me defensive (what was I defensive about?) and deflecting (who was I deflecting from?)

This reaction was so over the top, it's what made me feel worse about silverwolf.

However, when she calmed down and started answering my questions, I thought her responses were fair. My continued suspicions of her fall well short of me being convinced she must be bad.

Also, to you and zexy - you shouldn't rely on a strong town meta from me as being a sign I'm town. I think (others can give you their own opinion) that I maintain a pretty solid helpful-civ meta across both town and scum. It's totally fair for you to be paranoid. But I am town this game.

After this, you spent the rest of the time calming Silver down cause you town-read her. The whole episode left a bad taste in my mouth. A lot of hurrah over nothing which could've easily been avoided. And it felt like if Silver even looked at you wrong, you'd go back to suspecting her. [10]

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:

Silverwolf wrote:For some reason I feel like Golden and MP are scumbuddies.

You say this over and over and it makes me go back to suspecting you a little. Should I suspect you and ika are scum buddies because you defend each other? Or should I recognise that you know each others meta and listen to you when you talk about each other?

You've chosen not to acknowledge any of the things I've said when you've referenced my defense of MP.

When you posted your rainbow list, you had Frog as a town read. [11]

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:Rainbow time - decided to treat it like gth and have no null reads.

Medium Town

Marco
Sloonei
Zexy

Mild Town

Frog
MovingPictures07
Silverwolf
Dyslexicon
Long Con
sig

Mild Bad

ika
Inawordyes
Psittaciform
Soneji
Metalmarsh89

Moderate Bad

a2thezebra
DrWilgy

Though I couldn't quite understand how you had him as such a high town read while you were so conflicted about him. [12][13]

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Frog, what the hell is an obvious townie? There is no such thing. Also, you realize that's, like, your opinion, man. How come you get to determine what's easy mislynch bait and what isn't? We don't know anything until flips have occurred. Otherwise, stop acting like you have such confident reads.

I agree with this. Frog has started bothering me lately. No-one is an 'obvious townie', no-one is an 'easy lynch' (let alone silverwolf and ika who come with a built in ally) and if there really were easy lynches, I'd think they would be the people who weren't posting ie the ones you, Frog, are pushing.

It makes me feel a little less confident in my initial town read.

Golden wrote:

sig wrote:Zebra popped in yet didn't post. I'm really starting to feel this Zebra vote.


@Golden what do you think of Zebra and Matt?

Matt is definitely not playing this game. If he was he would be tunnelling on me.

Not a fan of zebra this game. She may well be truthful in her feeling on the low poster idea, but if I were town I'd be much more inclined to come in and explain why I've been a low poster - not to criticise the entire concept. I think in some ways Frog is right that perhaps the most useful outcome of his idea is to look at who opposes it a little too hard.

You never actually engaged Frog about any of your concerns though. You were also the first person to suggest a Frog CFD. [14]

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:If I was to do some kind of tinfoil CFD vote, it would probably be Frog.

His trying to constantly reduce things to mechanical rules about what scum would do are not only obviously fallacious (because the moment rules develop around 'what scum would do', scum deliberately act counter to that) but also feel like someone making a play for town leader.

I see Frog's content almost as deliberate wifom - on one hand I can read it as trying to avoid being the NK target. On the other as trying to avoid being the lynch target. The one thing I have difficulty seeing it as is absolutely straight. He started off feeling quite straightforward to me, but he's wobbled his way off the road.

And that was all you said about it until your vote on him. I can understand it was tinfoil wrapped but from my little experience with you, you seem the type of player who engages his suspects, and it's odd to me that you had almost no interaction in between the time he was one of your foremost town-reads to when you suggested the CFD on him. When you were suspicious of Silver, zebra, etc, you engaged them. It was only after your vote on Frog, and specifically once the votes were tied that you finally started engaging Frog. [15]

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:

Frog wrote:I've developed and drove content and strategies with a mountain of posts.

You've pushed the concept that high posting = town and now you want to benefit from that?

You can't self define what town looks like and then claim obvi-town because you fit into your self-described criteria. You are far too focussed on what 'town looks like' for my liking.

The underlined was such a strange remark, too. You'd been all aboard his plan earlier [16]. I can understand being confused about some of the terms Frog used, but you never really engaged him about them, and the underlined just seemed like you were misrepresenting him.

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:But while I'm doing that, I want to hear from Golden as to why he voted for me. If we're talking unexplained votes, he takes the prize for worst offense.

Because (until just now) you weren't talking.

I've been on board with Frog's plan of voting amongst the four low posters from the word go - so far, you, Wilgy and zebra have all tasted my suspicion bat. The only reason Psi hasn't is because he won't post and I don't know him.

Your basic reason was tinfoil. [17]

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Golden wrote:I should switch back to IAWY

Don't plz

I won't. I've tinfoiled myself into a Frog vote. I think it will be informative.

Even urging ika to switch. [18]

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:Ika, you should vote frog tbh just to prove you don't always vote with silver!

I can't really say for sure, obviously, but I definitely feel like your call for Frog CFD and vote was the tipping point for Frog. That coupled with the fact that Frog was the one suspect of you that you didn't even try to engage doesn't look good.

I don't understand the rationale behind voting for someone you read as town to convince them you're town. [19][20]

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:VOTE A2THEZEBRA

I'm smacking zebra on the head with the red shell.

Golden wrote:Maybe it will wake her up.

You compared zebra's push on you SP's vote on MP, which was even more confusing. [21]

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:I have no justified reason to vote you. I don't give a shit. I'm voting for you to wake you up. Lynch me and you lynch a townie. You've decided to see every explanation I make as a point in your favour, despite the fact it is neither inconsistent nor in any way false.

Or, put another way, your posts towards me are basically the same as silverwolf's posts towards MP yesterday. You are just looking for a reason to suspect me, and anything I say furthers your existing perception. Even rational points that you admit should sway you in the other direction swayed you further towards suspecting me, so...

I'll do what I can to wake you up. If I can't, then whatevs.

Here's the post that really put me off. [22]

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:Here's the thing, zebra. Full seriousness.

I am town, but I'd sooner mislynch you and leave my vote on you than be lynched myself. I'm playing this game for practice for champs. I don't actually care if you go down. I don't actually WHO goes down. I'm going to do my best to try to solve the game and thats all there is to it.

I'll do what I have to do to survive in this game. If that means lynching the people who think I'm bad, even if they are town, then so be it. Means I get longer to practice.

I don't have any teammates to come to my rescue and help. If I do get lynched today, I'll call it a failed endeavour. Certainly, I'll give up, because I don't have time for this shit. I'm playing because JJJ was nice enough to give me a chance to practice, even though I really don't have time for it.

Even with Silver, you hadn't gotten this annoyed. And after you town-read Silver, you were quite affable to her. This post, especially, comes across a bit artificial to me. Or a better word would be manufactured. But more interesting than the "I want practice" bit is the "I will survive" bit. If you are voting for self-preservation, why vote for the person with no votes on her? MetalMarsh, IAWY are much better alternatives. Especially since you scum-read both of them. [23]

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:New rainbow

Strong town

Marco
Zexy
MovingPictures07

Moderate town

a2thezebra
sig

Slight town

Dyslexicon
ika

Slight scum

DrWilgy
Inawordyes
Metalmarsh89
Psittaciform
Soneji

Moderate scum

Matt

Your defense was always adequate, in respect to the MM/Sloonei bits, so that's what I was talking about when I said that it looked like zebra had caught an actual scum but for the wrong reasons.

You found Sloonei suspicious after MetalMarsh pointed out the Frog FOS and added him to your list of people you want to lynch. [24] [25]

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Golden wrote:What MM fails to account for in his case on sloonei is the extent to which sloonei already town read or trusted ika vs frog. If I came on asking people who I should vote for and a person I didn't have any reason to trust gave me one answer and a person I'm reading as town gave me another, I know I'd dismiss one and focus on the other.

I fail to see how Frog being Sloonei's top suspect only a few hours beforehand supports this statement.

Good! I hadn't done any research on it, I was just picking holes in your case for you to fill.

Now, I think it's a pretty decent one.

Golden wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Golden wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Golden wrote:What MM fails to account for in his case on sloonei is the extent to which sloonei already town read or trusted ika vs frog. If I came on asking people who I should vote for and a person I didn't have any reason to trust gave me one answer and a person I'm reading as town gave me another, I know I'd dismiss one and focus on the other.

I fail to see how Frog being Sloonei's top suspect only a few hours beforehand supports this statement.

Good! I hadn't done any research on it, I was just picking holes in your case for you to fill.

Now, I think it's a pretty decent one.

I don't remember it from my catch-up, so at the time it didn't stand out to me.

Would you vote for Sloonei today?

To be precise.

You have convinced me to add Sloonei to the list of people I will consider voting today.

He would not be my preferred vote, because I'd be interested to see his response to your case and I don't think we'll get that today.

But if he does end up being the lynchee, I think the reasons for it are solid.

So, now you had MetalMarsh, IAWY, and Sloonei as potential lynch candidates. However, you didn't want to vote for Sloonei because he wouldn't respond yesterday. But you didn't look to get any particular responses from Frog. And Sloonei actually did show up and could've responded to you yesterday, but you didn't really engage him either.

After voting for him today, some time ago, you also revealed that you found his jump off the Frog wagon last minute scummy cause you think he did it for towncred. [26]

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:Your hunch looks more like a preemptive defense (to an accusation that I don't think has been made yet) than a genuine effort to scumhunt. Beautiful. If there's any distancing going on, it's not Sloonei and Marmot. It's you and Marmot.

VOTE SLOONEI

I think its more likely I'm wrong about Marmot than wrong about Sloonei.

I've thought he was bad since the moment he jumped off Frog at the last moment at EoD. That vote felt full of certainty that Frog was town.

To me it just felt like Sloonei had not really been paying much attention to think about all that. Especially with no day chat for the scum-team, I find it unlikely that he would jump off Frog for town-cred after he claimed he scum read Frog. I also didn't like how you were doing the breadcrumbs thing. Mentioning things one by one. First you mentioned MM's case against Sloonei. Then the tiny extra research he did. Then finally that the vote switch off Frog was why you suspected him most. It's like you were thinking of reasons to suspect him. For instance, you could have made the following post much earlier. Instead it felt like you were constantly adding things as you went along and MM and zombie questioned you. [27]

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:

Golden wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:

Golden wrote: Anyway, what do you want me to do? Say 'oh, zebra, you're right, I'm scum, well done'? I AM TOWN, what else do you think I'll be but stubborn in the face of accusations I'm not?

If all I wanted from you was to concede then I wouldn't have bothered holding my vote until you responded. Strong defenses have swayed me before, I wanted you to defend yourself convincingly. Instead, you pulled the condescension/disrespect card. Not smart.

I defended myself with the truth. You didn't buy it. I am not then going to make up shit to be more persuasive. If you don't buy the truth, there is nothing more I can do.

The truth? What a cop out. You defended yourself with cheap semantics and then accused me of attacking you with them. If you were speaking the truth then you did a shit job of going about it.

I did not defend myself with anything 'cheap' or 'semantics'. The truth is my read on sloonei did not change based on MM's initial case, and it did change based on his subsequent addition, which only came after I pressured him. My read on sloonei further worsened (ie, I went from 'I see MM's case and it isn't bad' to 'I think sloonei is bad independent from MM's case') when sloonei voted frog.

This is not a semantic difference. It's there, in the thread, as it happened, for anyone to read.

MM and you are the ones who have been using semantics to try to trip me into looking like my view has been inconsistent when it has not been.

And then you finally switched to Matt after he replaced Sloonei. [28]

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:VOTE MATT

Mentioning this just for closure. I don't particularly find a vote on him at this point odd. I also don't like how you're being wishy-washy about Sloonei vote yesterday. You said yesterday that you weren't voting for him cause he wasn't around, but he did show up right after that. And today, you started saying you never really considered lynching him yesterday. [29]

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Golden wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Hopefully Golden this makes you feel more comfortable.

I'd feel most comfortable if I understood your current read on me, and why.

I was actually thinking that you and Sloonei were on a team together, which is why you didn't vote for him yesterday, but did today. You had time to discuss things overnight, and plan out a bus attempt today.

But with Matt replacing in, that makes the tin-foil moot. Sloonei wouldn't replace out if he was planning on being bussed. That doesn't fit. I still find Sloonei suspicious and would like to hear from Matt sooner than later. As for you, I would list you as slight mafia still.

Besides this, as I've made the point before... I don't 'plan' busses. Ever. There is no value in it. Bussing is a phenomenon that MUST feel natural out of your reads. If it feels like you've suddenly shifted direction, it's pointless. If I'm going to bus, it's my call alone and I make it in the moment... and if I have day time talk, I'll say sorry to my teammate, but I'll do what I have to do.

I never truly considered a sloonei vote yesterday. But I'll admit, after he switched from Frog to IAWY, I very nearly switched my vote to you. That was the moment where I started tinfoiling the pair of you as teammates. It looked to me a little like getting civ cred AND helping make sure a teammate didn't go home all in one. And it's not as though your case on sloonei ever amounted to any danger for him, because so many people were town reading him.

The flaw in this tinfoil read is - you are vibing town to me. It's why I feel much more strongly about sloonei than I do about you.

And right after, it's like you're catching yourself and adding a new reason (different from what you gave yesterday). [30]

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:And the reason I never truly considered a sloonei vote yesterday is in part because I never considered he would get the votes to be lynched, so it seemed like a waste of energy. I never considered a Frog vote either until it seemed viable that he would be lynched.

And before, early Day 2, when asked what your reason for suspecting Sloonei, you only mentioned it was MM's strengthened case. But after you pointed out the Frog vote bail, you kept using that as your primary reason for suspecting Sloonei. [31]

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:

Dyslexicon wrote:Golden, I'm not sure I see how Sloonmatt is your strongest suspicion. I don't really find MM's initial argument against him very convincing, even after the revision (prompted but not intented by you lol). Can you sum up your suspicion or something?

My primary reason for suspecting sloonei was that he spent the whole day (maybe not the whole day, but it is my impression of him) calling Frog his top suspect and then jumped away from him with about 7 minutes to go, because 'if Frog is town, he is too valuable'.

To me, this jump made no sense, and felt informed and like a civ cred grab. It's unfortunate that sloonei was not able to come back to explain himself.

And finally, your post where you state that you thought MM implied MP had a power role early in the game [32]. This is strange because you thought MM was scum all this while. Meaning if he actually thought MP was PR, they would've killed him last night. This feels like something you made up after we started discussing the possibilities of MP and Sig being PR.

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:Full disclosure now that its out of the bag. I think I restrained myself in saying this earlier.

MM made a comment very early in the game which I felt revealed that he thought MP had implied a town power role. I also thought MP had effectively implied this, but I kept it under my hat. The choice to put it in the thread was part of me seeing both marmot and sloonei as bad in the early day. I feel like scum would be more blase pointing out that MP could be a power role than scum would be.

Since it is kind of now open discussion, though, I agree that MP or sig, if they are in possession of the correct set up, should say what it is.

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Marco wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Marco, if not zebra, who were you hoping made such a comment in the thread?

Why would I be hoping for someone specific to make that comment? I knew Zebra's stand already, which is why I said I was hoping for someone else who said it.

The way I understood it, you weren't aware zebra had said such a thing.

As for your question, I don't know why you'd be hoping for someone specific to make that comment. I want to be clear if someone else meant someone in particular, or just anyone.

Zebra's and Golden's interaction this phase is what set off the most red flags in respect to Golden for me. So, yeah, I was hoping for validation from other people. Especially since most of my town-reads town read Golden.

What specific red flags does my interaction with zebra set off for you?

I guess I'll just be totally clear with you. Unfamiliarity is already a hindrance since I don't know what to expect from you. Give me a bit to get a post together.

Naturally it is. It is a disadvantage in some ways, but an advantage in others in that you might not brush over things that even I myself wouldn't have considered needed explanation. I would only ask that you try to take into account people who know me well on meta based defences, and I in turn will try to provide meaningful content for you in my response.

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Marco wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Marco, if not zebra, who were you hoping made such a comment in the thread?

Why would I be hoping for someone specific to make that comment? I knew Zebra's stand already, which is why I said I was hoping for someone else who said it.

The way I understood it, you weren't aware zebra had said such a thing.

As for your question, I don't know why you'd be hoping for someone specific to make that comment. I want to be clear if someone else meant someone in particular, or just anyone.

Zebra's and Golden's interaction this phase is what set off the most red flags in respect to Golden for me. So, yeah, I was hoping for validation from other people. Especially since most of my town-reads town read Golden.

What specific red flags does my interaction with zebra set off for you?

Matt wrote:MM - I've read a few pages, why does Golden want to hurt me?

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:IAWY wagon started after MM tried to start a wagon on Sloonei. MP and Silver were the ones who started it IIRC.

I started it with silver. Obviously you don't have my perspective on it, but I know both silver and I are town, so that tells me nothing at all.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

ika wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote: Well, clearly sig didn't.

MM, your VT whats the first thing you would do in reading a matrix setup?

your a PR in ths matrix setup, what would you read first?

do you get what im saying? unless sig is a PR that doesnt allow a town vig to exist, he should of known that it could be town or scum.

if hes town PR that confiremd a scum vig existance he should come out with it. i didnt read all diffrent setups bu i knew town adn scum vig existed before even signing

This logic should also apply to MovingPictures, no?

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Marco wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Marco, if not zebra, who were you hoping made such a comment in the thread?

Why would I be hoping for someone specific to make that comment? I knew Zebra's stand already, which is why I said I was hoping for someone else who said it.

The way I understood it, you weren't aware zebra had said such a thing.

As for your question, I don't know why you'd be hoping for someone specific to make that comment. I want to be clear if someone else meant someone in particular, or just anyone.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Marco, if not zebra, who were you hoping made such a comment in the thread?

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:1. Yes, he was meta-gaming throughout the latter half. In my experience, it's best to not lynch such players Day 1. This is why I can understand Sloonei taking his vote off Frog. Regardless of Frog's alignment, it was guaranteed that he'd interact with people a lot and that would give us a lot of reads.

2. Well, MM and MP were the lynch candidates. MM tried to start a wagon on Sloonei but people moved on to IAWY instead. An IAWY flip would give us info on the voters who switched to him and insight into Sloonei's and MP's alignment. MM was a divisive read for a lot of people and he had his own leads. His death would've clarified quite a bit too. What info did we get from the Frog flip?

On 2 - explain to me what info we get from voters who 'switched to him' and how we get into the alignments of MM and MP if IAWY was town, in a way that we would not have gotten exactly the same from people who moved away from MM and IAWY to Frog, and the alignments of MM and IAWY? I can't see how these two things are different? Expressly tell me what kind of info we would have gotten, and why, from a town IAWY flip and why we do not have analagous information from a Frog flip. I don't understand this at all.

From my perspective, the reason we don't have data from a frog town flip is primarily because we have no scum flips to try and factor in what it means. It may give us information later. But similarly, an IAWY town flip feels like it would be exactly the same to me... I can't fathom what useful information would have come from it.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Marco wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Marco wrote:MetalMarsh89, you scum-read Golden, correct? And Golden, you scum-read MM, right?

Correct. I have a light scum-read on Golden.

I don't have anything to say to your suggestion that we are distancing and mafia teammates. It's not the first time I've heard it today, nor do I expect it to be the last.

Who else said it today? I must have missed it.

I know zebra said it here.

I thought sig also acknowledged the possibility, but I can't find it, so perhaps I'm mistaken there.

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:Regardless of Frog's alignment, it was guaranteed that he'd interact with people a lot and that would give us a lot of reads.

Here's the thing though... he wasn't. After his early interactions with you guys, he literally essentially stopped interacting with people. At least that was my impression. He got fixated on four names and no longer engaged in anything else. That's why I struggle to see what we lost as lost value. There is a difference between 'active and vocal' and actually providing content. He wasn't.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Marco wrote:MetalMarsh89, you scum-read Golden, correct? And Golden, you scum-read MM, right?

Correct. I have a light scum-read on Golden.

I don't have anything to say to your suggestion that we are distancing and mafia teammates. It's not the first time I've heard it today, nor do I expect it to be the last.

Golden wrote:1) I did feel like it was an 'act' (not the being drunk thing, but just his whole demeanour). I have expressed this before in different ways, but I'll do my best in expressing it in a new way. I felt like he was trying to dominate the town direction and push it in the direction he wanted, and to me it felt wifom (like, does he want to be town leader, or does he want us to think thats what he wants), and he pushed his particular gambits in a very dismissive way (I'm right, you're wrong) and talked about how no-one would have the balls to nk him, and I began to feel as though the whole thing was one big pile of wifom with the deliberate goal of making himself too much of an enigma to be touched. I've seen scum do things like that and run to the end too often. In fact, I came out the other side feeling like I was still right about the whole thing being an act - and maybe even why he was doing it - just wrong about the fact he was scum.

2) I find it difficult to judge how much info we'd have gotten (or get now) out of a town flip from IAWY or MM.

Soneji wrote:

Marco wrote:I don't think he was very eager to lynch you. He backed off pretty quickly when I told him your activity wasn't scummy according to your meta. More importantly, for Sig to want to CFD on you as scum, it would make sense only if one of the leading wagons was his teammate. The only options for that were IAWY and MetalMarsh. Sig had his vote on MM till the end, so doubtful that he was trying to save MM. And if he was trying to save IAWY, he should've shifted his vote to Frog instead of letting it become RNG between Frog and IAWY.

I was actually suspicious of Sig until EOD yesterday.

That he went quickly from "I didn't like his entrance" to "lets start a CFD on him" says to me that he was eager, at least from my perspective. When you posted what you said, he had already had no success in getting anyone to follow him and he me breathing down his neck. You offered him an easy escape route for backing off his suspicion. I don't think he could have justified a Frog switch at that stage, especially with his push on me in part for my Frog vote.

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:

Soneji wrote:

Marco wrote:I also feel like most of the people on the Frog wagon (or those retroactively calling him scummy this phase) misrepresented him, intentionally or otherwise. This is in terms of his "inactive hunting" push. Or maybe I'm just sore you guys CFD'd one of the most active and experienced players (and one of my biggest town reads) to save two fairly inactive players (both in my scum reads).

He did inactive hunt though, to the point of actively discouraging discussion on basically anyone but them.

I think you missed out on a lot of context because you basically skimmed the whole thread in less than a couple hours. Moot point now, since Frog is already dead. I'm just finding it odd that I was the only person actually understanding him when I was the one opposing him for half of Day 1.

I disagree. I felt him very understandable, and said so, in that first half of day 1. I did not agree with his perspective, but I felt it was town.

Frog's first half of day one was great.

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:I'll admit that even I was very curious about the Frog flip near the EOD. I could've switched to IAWY myself to save Frog, after all, but the general confusion of the rapid changing votes and self-doubt led me to stay on MM.

I feel like this is also part of why I stayed on Frog in the end. I'd convinced myself that I needed to understand the enigma. I also felt (at the time) that it would give us information. Well, I feel it would have given us a lot if he flipped scum.

But in hindsight, vanilla really didn't give us info at all.

Golden wrote:

Marco wrote:But suspecting someone all phase and jumping off from them for town cred seems like a completely counter-active move. That would only serve to foster more suspicion on you.

If that is true, where are all the sloonei votes? Why am I the only person coming out and expressing suspicion of it? The only others views on it have been as a result of agreeing or disagreeing with my own.

Frog was town, and no-one but me is pointing at sloonei for jumping off a town wagon at all.

Soneji wrote:

Marco wrote:I also feel like most of the people on the Frog wagon (or those retroactively calling him scummy this phase) misrepresented him, intentionally or otherwise. This is in terms of his "inactive hunting" push. Or maybe I'm just sore you guys CFD'd one of the most active and experienced players (and one of my biggest town reads) to save two fairly inactive players (both in my scum reads).

He did inactive hunt though, to the point of actively discouraging discussion on basically anyone but them.

Soneji wrote:

Marco wrote:Maybe you should've listened to me and put your vote in the IAWY or MM wagon yesterday instead of Frog.

Was tempted to but there were too many big names moving on and off the Frog lynch for me to not see that one through. Golden and Sloonei have quite a good deal to answer for in regards to their actions during yesterdays EoD.

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Marco wrote:I also feel like most of the people on the Frog wagon (or those retroactively calling him scummy this phase) misrepresented him, intentionally or otherwise. This is in terms of his "inactive hunting" push. Or maybe I'm just sore you guys CFD'd one of the most active and experienced players (and one of my biggest town reads) to save two fairly inactive players (both in my scum reads).

There could be mafia on the Frog wagon, but I don't know; I felt like Frog's behavior was sketchy as well. He seemed intent to actually hunt, but then kept avoiding observations he made about you and Sloonei in order to continuously push his low poster plan, and his thoughts on me were worded strongly but all over the place (ironically, given that's what he said about my play).

Golden wrote:

Dyslexicon wrote:Golden, I'm not sure I see how Sloonmatt is your strongest suspicion. I don't really find MM's initial argument against him very convincing, even after the revision (prompted but not intented by you lol). Can you sum up your suspicion or something?

My primary reason for suspecting sloonei was that he spent the whole day (maybe not the whole day, but it is my impression of him) calling Frog his top suspect and then jumped away from him with about 7 minutes to go, because 'if Frog is town, he is too valuable'.

To me, this jump made no sense, and felt informed and like a civ cred grab. It's unfortunate that sloonei was not able to come back to explain himself.

MovingPictures07 wrote:His Frog vote is a doubt in my mind. The Golden side of that conversation is classic Golden, but I can see why someone unfamiliar with him would find it pingworthy. It's oozing with balls and truth that mafia Golden would probably not post; he'd be more sneaky.

That said, I'm still putting him as a moderate read, not close to 100% or anything like that. So I'm listening.

Do you have other reasons to scum read MM (or Golden for that matter)?

Soneji wrote:The thing with this is that I'm having trouble seeing a reason why sig would be so eager to have a counterwagon form on me and be defensive of IAWY, seemingly only because he read his opening post as townish. I could understand it if it was a TS regular hes familiar with that he doesn't want to see gone so early but someone hes unfamiliar with that isn't really contributing? From my perspective, he saw someone who people were discussing getting replaced come in late with a long post he probably doesn't think people will read too closely or have time to analyze properly, with a vote contrary to the only two wagons at the time that he could spin as "avoiding the major wagons".

I do think IAWY's flip will be the most telling and I support it as the finalized lynch. Getting more out of sig beforehand can't hurt though.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Marco wrote:Do the games here generally not have Town Vigilante? Do you generally have multiple kills on Night 1? And if so, is it usually mafia doing so?

If we have multiple nightkills on a given night, it's usually because there is a serial killer/independent, not because of a town vig. There have been rare occurrences of a town vig here, but they are quite uncommon.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Marco wrote:It seems uncharacteristic of you. You seem to be able to see the other face of the coin in all events. More importantly, you seem to make a point to inform others of this other face. What I mean is you're the kind of guy who seems to see how he can be wrong even when 95% sure about something. More importantly, you seem to be the kind of guy who clearly points out this 5% chance of being wrong (if you remember my post about your style of play and plausible deniability).

So, it feels strange to me that you couldn't see the possibility of Town Vig being responsible for one of the kills. Especially since you didn't even have a town read on Epi (null on Epi and slight scum-read on Long Con).

Let's not forget the presence of town roles in this game.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Hey Marco, what thoughts do you have on Soneji right now? I'm working on the ISO and am curious what you think given you're more familiar with him than anyone.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Well, these setups are pretty foreign to the site in general, me included, so I don't know what the natural inclination would be, since I don't have any. I'll take your word for what would be more common though.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Why would it be weird? I hadn't really thought it through, and I think that my train of thought as the day progressed can be seen in my posts. My instinct was Mafia Vig because I didn't think a Town Vig would kill Silver or Epi, I checked the matrix and saw more possibilities for Mafia Vig which reinforced my instinct, so that's what I posted. Didn't even think about a Town Vig wanting to kill Epi until MM brought up the reasoning.