The Syndicate

Anyway, thanks for the game Jay! Loved the theme, and it was pretty thrilling to play.

I also feel like I've made quite a progress as a baddie, though the whole bussing thing bit us in the ass harder than I could ever expect.

This game is basically a thesis on how bussing can go wrong.

I love how everyone who is watching the thread is staff

something

I know where Quin is

Spoiler: show

I mean, most of the time I just assume whoever is accusing me is just wrong.

RIP Epi.

birdwithteeth11 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:56 pm
Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:54 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:39 pm
Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:34 pm Isn't it just possible that sanmateo was latching on me because he wanted to have someone he could vote for over and over so péople thought he was scumhunting when he wasn't?

Someone who gets suspected by a lot of people often so that wouldn't draw much attention to him?
Why didn't it occur to you to say this when he started trying to get you lynched?
Because I didn't think of it at the time?

I am not constantly analysing every possible motivation for every person who accuses me.
The only way I don't see that occurring is if you are connected.

Isn't that the point of what mafia is about?

Maybe but my day doesn't have 36 hours so I can't play it perfectly.

So no, I don't analyse everyone all the time. I skim most posts, and points things out when they catch my eye. If they don't, tough luck.

birdwithteeth11 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:42 pm
Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:34 pm Isn't it just possible that sanmateo was latching on me because he wanted to have someone he could vote for over and over so péople thought he was scumhunting when he wasn't?

Someone who gets suspected by a lot of people often so that wouldn't draw much attention to him?
Not really. If that was his strategy, it's also just as likely that he could end up being accused of tunneling. And that one usually never ends well if the person is wrong.

I've tunneled all the time as a civ. And in some of them survived until the end. Tunneling is hardly a baddie tell.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:39 pm
Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:34 pm Isn't it just possible that sanmateo was latching on me because he wanted to have someone he could vote for over and over so péople thought he was scumhunting when he wasn't?

Someone who gets suspected by a lot of people often so that wouldn't draw much attention to him?
Why didn't it occur to you to say this when he started trying to get you lynched?

Because I didn't think of it at the time?

I am not constantly analysing every possible motivation for every person who accuses me.

Also we should read everyone's mentions of sanmateo and vice-versa.

Was going to do it myself today but then I decided to do a 8 km walk and now I'm fucking tired.

It was awesome though. Been meaning to do it for months.

I'll do it tomorrow night if nobody else has, though.

Isn't it just possible that sanmateo was latching on me because he wanted to have someone he could vote for over and over so péople thought he was scumhunting when he wasn't?

Someone who gets suspected by a lot of people often so that wouldn't draw much attention to him?

I think you were both.

You can be logical and yet still take a wrong conclusion.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:16 pm I also suspect DDL because he called me good because I'm so logical, but he hasn't agreed with a single thing I've said or done.

I've already explained my point. I don't need to agree with someone's read to think they are being honest.

MovingPictures07 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:05 pm It was fun playing with you again though, sanmateo, hope to see you play another one.

Pretty much. After Economics I thought you wouldn't come backk. You are a cool guy sanmateo, I hope you stay.

Spacedaisy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:55 pm I'm looking at a sanmateo/DDL teammate pairing with that last post by DDL.

Explain?

Only 50% of players voting is sad though.

I have no idea how to read sanmateo. He did accuse me a few times and I argued that back, but other than that he has been kind of a non factor in this game, so I don't remember him really much. I usually suspect people who are like that tbh. But I'm sticking with Nutella.

I admit it's possible my mind is being clouded by OMGUS. But I want to trust my gut.

It's more like a "reverse cheeleader', if that is a thing.

Or a commentator.

Whatever. Let me have my fun with metaphors.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:34 pm I'll admit, I've seen people do that. I guess, FMPOV, nutella's reactions seemed very genuine. The way she went about it, the out-of-game circumstances, the frustration about the vote, etc. I can't read it as scum.
Go read her posts and assume I'm town. Does it really seem like a scum reaction?

I actually feel like this game is going well but that nobody is voting in good places. It's freaking weird.

It could be a half legit half faked thing. As in, she is actually mad at the poll time, but she used that feeling to produce a post that made her look more civ.

I've done that myself. There was a game where I was bad and I was feeling guilty about the way I had treated another player in a previous game. So I wrote a heartfelt apology to him while making sure to use that as a spring to make people like me.

The best lies are half truths.

[mention]Epignosis[/mention]

This post.

nutella wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:56 pm also holy shit the worst role to lose wow great job everybody

I thought you were talking about it?

Epi looks at a piece of evidence and draws a different conclusion from the one I do.

I not only think it's not hard for scum to fake an outburst of frustration, but I also believe from experience that scum has a tendency to want to announce their reactions to major events in the game. As in "good job town", or "good job, vig", but also "this lynch was so stupid". This isn't really based on logic but I feel it's human nature, they want to show they care but don't want to actually help, so they make those cheerleader posts. I've had to hold that urge myself many times as bad.

And the timing... eh, jury is out on whether Nutella was mad for that or not. Baddies love an excuse not to vote for people, so they don't get involved in possible civ mislynches or unnecessary busses. And again, she could actually be mad and fake the whole thing. I don't want to start underestimating her.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:29 pm
Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:03 pm Judge the process, not the result.
That's not how this works. If you like Epi's process, perhaps you have something to say about what he logically concluded?

The result, if valid, will occur with the lynch. Epi's process hasn't resulted yet, and won't result in anything if everybody (like you) ignore it.

Eh I just wanted to use Epi's phrase against him.

Point is, the way he is thinking looks legit to me.

That doesn't mean I agree with it tho.

Judge the process, not the result.

I cant explain other people's reasons for treating me the way they do except point out it could be a combination of coincidence and baddies testing the wagon and then changing their mind.

I believe I am both very easy to start wagons on and good at defending myself, so this tends to happen.

I do agree Nutella's tiptoeing around me looks forced as hell though so Im gonna bet she is an example of such and vote for her.

Ok so I still want to lynch one of Nutella or MP now that LC is dead.

I also like the idea of lynchig Serge though I personally am not fond of lynching inactives too early so I think Ill back down for now.

Others are either neutral or slight civ reads. Strongest civ read right now is probably Epi, Im liking his logical prpcesses. But I also put Epi on my "never 100% read as civ" list a long time ago and I dont intend to remove him now.

nutella wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:23 pm sorry I didn't know about the phase shortening but it was very short notice and I wasn't able to catch up and see it in time due to forces that were out of my control. and I agree with Epi that phases should not be shortened like this, especially with such little warning. I could have had a chance at preventing the lynch of a powerful civ role but nope. Not that I entirely blame this circumstance for that -- definitely annoyed at the people who switched to LC last minute. Speedchuck was a way better candidate but yall blew it.

What do you intend to accomplish with this criticism? Lowering our morale?

Quin wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:59 pm Oh, how I pity thee.

I love your new avatar.

MovingPictures07 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:36 pm
Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:28 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:07 pm
Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:53 pm About Epi: I cant read him to save myself. The way he is playing (tunneling on people for arbitrary reasons) is his MO regardlessly of alignment.

Im also skimming most of his argument with LC tbh.

He goes straight to my big neutral pile.

I wanna vote for one of MP, Nutella or LC.
Tell me about MP. I was just going to say that I want him and Epi to be discussed most of all right now. Epi for the reasons I highlighteated earlier, and MP because his reads seemed almost labored, if that's fair to say. He mostly seemed to just make passing observations at the level of activity of certain players without much intuitive or dynamic responses to events of the thread. I find the brief flare up between MP & Daisy to be particularly intriguing, though I'm not sure what to read into it yet. But any time two players who know each as closely as those two know each other are involved in something like that, it's worth taking note of.
It seems to me like Daisy took offense in MP's vote or saw something she did not like. It would he good to hear her follow-up thoughts on that whole episode. @Spacedaisy
Not more than what I already gave. Also at the risk of parroting them, seeing MP and Daisy poke each other makes me feel sus, because couples tend to be really good at reading each other from what Ive seen. My money is on one of them being bad.
I don't like this post; you're setting up a false dichotomy where one of me and Daisy is likely bad based on little reason: my vote of her was a pressure vote and hers was a reaction.

Im pointing out at what I see as possible meaningful evidece so it doesnt go unexamined. If the dochotomy is wrong I can only shrug.

MovingPictures07 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:31 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:09 pm I don't actually want to lynch DDL today and he's shared a good amount of thoughts for now. So I'm moving my vote to Epignosis.
What constitutes a "good amount" of thoughts, and why specifically would such a quantity of posts mean DDL is an undesirable lynch?

That is a good point actually. It could be interpreted that Sloonei was testing my wagon, and when I showed up and started defending myself and arguing with people, it became a harder lynch so he moved to the next one.

MovingPictures07 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:29 pm
Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:39 pm
MovingPictures07 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:33 pm Alright, switching my vote to @NewTraditionalist because the fact that this guy hasn't come to play with us yet is perhaps most disconcerting of all!

Seriously man, what do you think of all this stuff that's been said? I know it's probably tough to acquaint yourself with a bunch of content in your first online game ever, but I know you have it in you to bring some serious insight. What you got?
At this point of the day, this is as useless a vote as someone could possibly make. No one will lynch NT and the probability of him showing up in this short timeframe is nearly zero so if youre bad you have gotted rid of your responsibility to vote in an easy way.
NT is just as likely to be town or scum as anyone else. How is this useless? I'm generating discussion. Someone has to help get him involved in the game somehow; I know him IRL and thought I was suited to do so.

If he didnt post, there would be no useful discussion coming from it, and you would have gotten yourself an easy vote. That is the issue.

MovingPictures07 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:27 pm
Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:41 am
Spoiler: show

MovingPictures07 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:02 pm A reads/preliminary rainbow list for me right now would look something like this:

Moderate Town -- would NOT vote
birdwithteeth11
Epignosis
sanmateo

Slight Town -- would NOT vote
speedchuck

==================================================

Neutral-- would potentially vote
Dom
Dragon D. Luffy
DrWilgy
NewTraditionalist
nutella
Serge
Spacedaisy

Slight Mafia-- would potentially vote
Long Con
Sloonei

Players are not ranked within groups, only across groups.

Generally I prefer to stick to POE and usually don't feel comfortable making any firm mafia reads at this stage, but despite being hesitant because I do feel LC is a player who can get himself into trouble early on, I'm relatively convinced by Epi's pursuit of LC and would call him a sole slight mafia read. I also am a bit wary of Sloonei; perhaps it's a bit leftover shock still from Street Fighter, but without taking an in-depth look at his ISO I'm not sure I buy Sloonei's attempts to start discussion to be genuine. Specifically, he doesn't seem that interested in actually developing reads and seems a bit too hoppy. But those are just general impressions and maybe I'm being overly paranoid of him.

As for my neutrals, well, I'm not sure how to sort Wilgy or DDL yet. Everyone else has been too quiet or essentially nonexistent, which is disconcerting. Hopefully we hear from them before the deadline.

I'm going to be pretty busy tomorrow, so my activity will be less than ideal. I'll be here in the hour or two leading to EoD though at a minimum; I think I can set aside that time at least.
Weird, Sloonei is givig me strong town vibes. But I guess thats my default reaction to those Jay-type posters who analyse everything. I think Ill spend the game rradig him as civ yet being paranoid about it.

Wilgy made one post (dont remember which) that looked uber civ. But the last time that happened he was bad. So I dunno what to think.
I don't understand this; please elaborate. I don't understand how you have a town read of Sloonei in this game.

I dont have an in depth read on anyone (havent tried to do those at all in over a year). I read posts, get a general gut feeling of them, and also try to look for slips or interactions nobody noticed. Sloonei's posts give me the feeling of town leader. But Im also aware that I will probably do that in every game. So either my read of him is garbage, or my instincts are good. I dont know.

MovingPictures07 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:25 pm
Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:32 am
Long Con wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:00 am How is it manipulative? Is there something untrue in it? I'm looking at it right now and it's a direct accounting of what happened.

And yet you have no problem with this entirely made-up post:

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:01 amThe past three or four times you have been bad, you've done this very thing: Manufacturing a narrative for my actions or reactions that isn't true.

I made the mistake of waving that off once or twice, citing recency bias to myself. Surely LC wouldn't keep doing the same things over and over when he is bad.

Now it's a pattern. This is just what you do when you are bad.

I said it gave me this feeling, because of the jester-y way you were accusing Epi. Not that ou are actually lying.

As for the fake news thing, without actually doing research, I find it more likely that Epi would be mistaken about your previous game history, because those things are easy to remember wrong, than blatabtly fake meta evidence that would get him lynched for it.
What do you mean by jester-y here? You lost me, sorry.

I think joke-ry was more like a better word. He was throwing shit at Epi while sounding ironic about it which felt mean spritted to me.

And it could be arfued that you are taking part of this ddl bandwagon that is looming over us. So what about that?

sanmateo wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:23 pm i'm looking at this mp bandwagon and it just looks like bullshit. if he's scum spacedaisy is probably scum as well but it's not exactly a solid vote. wilgy's vote could literally mean anything. and ddl has once again gone on a bandwagon, i understand that he's sequestered meeting family, friends and loved ones and he can't yell at strangers online (aka the best thing in the world) or whatever, but am i going insane? he's done this twice

How are we supposed to lynch people without bandwagons?

Besides I like to think I started this one.

Pretty sure I made a similar post in the Pokemon game I played, where I was a civ.

Im going to vote now because I dont know if I'll be here later. I am with my relatives and they demand socializing.

MP it is.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:07 pm
Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:53 pm About Epi: I cant read him to save myself. The way he is playing (tunneling on people for arbitrary reasons) is his MO regardlessly of alignment.

Im also skimming most of his argument with LC tbh.

He goes straight to my big neutral pile.

I wanna vote for one of MP, Nutella or LC.
Tell me about MP. I was just going to say that I want him and Epi to be discussed most of all right now. Epi for the reasons I highlighteated earlier, and MP because his reads seemed almost labored, if that's fair to say. He mostly seemed to just make passing observations at the level of activity of certain players without much intuitive or dynamic responses to events of the thread. I find the brief flare up between MP & Daisy to be particularly intriguing, though I'm not sure what to read into it yet. But any time two players who know each as closely as those two know each other are involved in something like that, it's worth taking note of.
It seems to me like Daisy took offense in MP's vote or saw something she did not like. It would he good to hear her follow-up thoughts on that whole episode. @Spacedaisy

Not more than what I already gave. Also at the risk of parroting them, seeing MP and Daisy poke each other makes me feel sus, because couples tend to be really good at reading each other from what Ive seen. My money is on one of them being bad.

Sloonei, on your comments about me, Ive been generally inactive this game because of RL, but even then, Ive been changing my town meta on this site. Im sill generally agressive I think, but I avoid tunneling like my life depends on it and dont have strong civ or bad reads on anyone but myself. I think that has generally improved my civ play.

About Epi: I cant read him to save myself. The way he is playing (tunneling on people for arbitrary reasons) is his MO regardlessly of alignment.

Im also skimming most of his argument with LC tbh.

He goes straight to my big neutral pile.

I wanna vote for one of MP, Nutella or LC.

MovingPictures07 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:33 pm Alright, switching my vote to @NewTraditionalist because the fact that this guy hasn't come to play with us yet is perhaps most disconcerting of all!

Seriously man, what do you think of all this stuff that's been said? I know it's probably tough to acquaint yourself with a bunch of content in your first online game ever, but I know you have it in you to bring some serious insight. What you got?

At this point of the day, this is as useless a vote as someone could possibly make. No one will lynch NT and the probability of him showing up in this short timeframe is nearly zero so if youre bad you have gotted rid of your responsibility to vote in an easy way.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:29 pm
MovingPictures07 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:22 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:21 pm
MovingPictures07 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:18 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:14 pm MovingPictures07 I mean, look at your rainbow list. You have 7 people in the neutral territory. How can I be blamed for having lackluster reads when you yourself agree that more than half the players in the game are more or less unreadable at this stage?

linki: fair enough. I look forward to your ISO. I can't blame you if there's lingering suspicion from Street Fighter. I made a deliberate effort to buddy you.
Do you think I'm unfairly questioning you?
I feel your initial read of me was made using a point that should not apply. There's nothing unfair about questioning me.
What point shouldn't apply specifically?
MovingPictures07 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:02 pm Generally I prefer to stick to POE and usually don't feel comfortable making any firm mafia reads at this stage, but despite being hesitant because I do feel LC is a player who can get himself into trouble early on, I'm relatively convinced by Epi's pursuit of LC and would call him a sole slight mafia read. I also am a bit wary of Sloonei; perhaps it's a bit leftover shock still from Street Fighter, but without taking an in-depth look at his ISO I'm not sure I buy Sloonei's attempts to start discussion to be genuine. Specifically, he doesn't seem that interested in actually developing reads and seems a bit too hoppy. But those are just general impressions and maybe I'm being overly paranoid of him.
You made this point after posting a rainbow list in which more than half the players were listed as null reads. why am I to be blamed for failing to develop reads in the same thread?

If someone has non neutral reads on everyone on day 1, Id say that person is either lying or new at mafia.

nutella wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:27 pm Thoughts from catching up -

I'm torn on LC. Epi's references to other games are somewhat compelling; I was in those games and thus am fully aware of why Epi feels the way he does about LC, but I'm not necessarily convinced that he has to be right. Players don't always fulfill the patterns you expect across alignments. LC's reactions (especially the one after my post) were pretty over-the-top though and I can definitely see him being a caught baddie here.

At the same time, I'm torn on BWT as well. The circumstances of his info claim and its apparent misguidedness are intriguing, but I grant that it seems unlikely he would claim bad info openly if bad, so it's more likely it was just misguided/misleading false info. But his over-eager "let's all lynch LC" post was very suspicious. I've been considering voting for him but MP's post here rings pretty true to me and I'm inclined to trust his read:

MovingPictures07 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:14 pm BWT is being indecisive as fuck. That means he's town. If he was bad, he would force consistency.

I might look into joining Sloonei in a DDL vote; I'll look back at DDL next. Not feeling MP's and Epi's suspicion of Sloonei; I'm seeing town behavior.

Nutella is sitting on the fence so hard Im afraid she might hurt herself.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:14 am It has been a surprisingly long time since I played with DDL. I also remember him being a force early in most of our games together though. I do not hold it too much against a player when it simply appears that they've been more absent than passive, which is the case with DDL right now. I was hoping to hear more from him today. I have the same minor reservations about his Long Con position, but that's about it.

Im going to have inconsistent activity until monday night.Im taking a 900km trit to go to my counsin's wedding so I cant play all the time.

MovingPictures07 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:02 pm A reads/preliminary rainbow list for me right now would look something like this:

Moderate Town -- would NOT vote
birdwithteeth11
Epignosis
sanmateo

Slight Town -- would NOT vote
speedchuck

==================================================

Neutral-- would potentially vote
Dom
Dragon D. Luffy
DrWilgy
NewTraditionalist
nutella
Serge
Spacedaisy

Slight Mafia-- would potentially vote
Long Con
Sloonei

Players are not ranked within groups, only across groups.

Generally I prefer to stick to POE and usually don't feel comfortable making any firm mafia reads at this stage, but despite being hesitant because I do feel LC is a player who can get himself into trouble early on, I'm relatively convinced by Epi's pursuit of LC and would call him a sole slight mafia read. I also am a bit wary of Sloonei; perhaps it's a bit leftover shock still from Street Fighter, but without taking an in-depth look at his ISO I'm not sure I buy Sloonei's attempts to start discussion to be genuine. Specifically, he doesn't seem that interested in actually developing reads and seems a bit too hoppy. But those are just general impressions and maybe I'm being overly paranoid of him.

As for my neutrals, well, I'm not sure how to sort Wilgy or DDL yet. Everyone else has been too quiet or essentially nonexistent, which is disconcerting. Hopefully we hear from them before the deadline.

I'm going to be pretty busy tomorrow, so my activity will be less than ideal. I'll be here in the hour or two leading to EoD though at a minimum; I think I can set aside that time at least.

Weird, Sloonei is givig me strong town vibes. But I guess thats my default reaction to those Jay-type posters who analyse everything. I think Ill spend the game rradig him as civ yet being paranoid about it.

Wilgy made one post (dont remember which) that looked uber civ. But the last time that happened he was bad. So I dunno what to think.

Long Con wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:00 am How is it manipulative? Is there something untrue in it? I'm looking at it right now and it's a direct accounting of what happened.

And yet you have no problem with this entirely made-up post:

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:01 amThe past three or four times you have been bad, you've done this very thing: Manufacturing a narrative for my actions or reactions that isn't true.

I made the mistake of waving that off once or twice, citing recency bias to myself. Surely LC wouldn't keep doing the same things over and over when he is bad.

Now it's a pattern. This is just what you do when you are bad.

I said it gave me this feeling, because of the jester-y way you were accusing Epi. Not that ou are actually lying.

As for the fake news thing, without actually doing research, I find it more likely that Epi would be mistaken about your previous game history, because those things are easy to remember wrong, than blatabtly fake meta evidence that would get him lynched for it.

Long Con wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:00 am How is it manipulative? Is there something untrue in it? I'm looking at it right now and it's a direct accounting of what happened.

And yet you have no problem with this entirely made-up post:

Epignosis wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:01 amThe past three or four times you have been bad, you've done this very thing: Manufacturing a narrative for my actions or reactions that isn't true.

I made the mistake of waving that off once or twice, citing recency bias to myself. Surely LC wouldn't keep doing the same things over and over when he is bad.

Now it's a pattern. This is just what you do when you are bad.

I said it gave me this feeling, because of the jester-y way you were accusing Epi. Not that ou are actually lying.

As for the fake news thing, without actually doing research, I find it more likely that Epi would be mistaken about your previous game history, because those things are easy to remember wrong, than blatabtly fake meta evidence that would get him lynched for it.

Im here. 3g is horrible but Ill try to catch up.

Plz dont lynch me.

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