The Syndicate

G-Man: why peek the player who was already the most likely to be lynched today?

I think someone is going to have to step up to the plate and tell us what happened here. If there's a civilian or independent roleblock in play, or a night kill protection, then speak up. Your testimony may be the only thing to prevent a stupid mislynch.

Wait a minute: Scotty can be an independent with a roleblock as his power or among his powers. That could reconcile two of them.

Quin wrote:Ricochet. This game does fit within the heist guidelines, right? :P

Similar question for the HOST:

Do you interpret "3 power role limit" as being limited to just the civilian faction, or to the entire game roster?

G-Man wrote:Beats me then.

Possibilities that I can readily identify:

~ There are three non-vanilla roles in this game: cop, roleblocker, paranoid mafia leader. The roleblocker can belong to either faction. This would suit one of the scenarios you mentioned, but it doesn't explain Scotty as an independent. The roleblocker could have either prevented your cop peek or your night kill.

~ Baddie kill abstinence, meant to smear G-Man in a last-ditch effort to turn around a game collapsing over them. The roleblock can still come from either side. Scotty not accounted for.

~ Doctor protection on G-Man and a roleblocker. Too many roles, Scotty still unaccounted for.

~ G-Man himself abstained from a kill and prepared this explanation ahead of time.

---

G-Man: how do you know you were blocked?

G-Man wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:G-Man, what is your immediate reaction to this?

Bastardos! I was blocked. I finally get around to checking SVS and I'm blocked.

This looks horrible on me. No kill and one of you knows you blocked me. My only guesses are:

1) The baddies have a blocking role and abstained from killing

2) The baddies abstained from killing and the civ blocker doesn't trust me

Neither one is easy to swallow, so I'll leave my fate to you guys to decide.

There aren't enough roles for that, sir.

Perhaps. It'd kind of fit in with the theme and Elohcin's fear-related role.

Maybe we'll know more with today's new peek.

Quin wrote:My conclusion: Scotty isn't indie, and G-Man is insane/paranoid/whatever.

We may define those terms differently, but:

G-Man can't be a paranoid cop, because his INH result wasn't red.

G-Man can't be an insane cop because he was correct about Elohcin.

Also, dat peek.

G-Man, what is your immediate reaction to this?

In case I die in the next minute: don't actually lynch G-Man. That would be super dumb.

Quin wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Theory: Scotty is the "mafia" team mate of Elohcin, and he registered as "independent" because he was the one that might betray her.

I don't think there was anyone that might betray her. Her role says 'paranoid' after all.

Could be. Seems like a bastard move by Rico though if she feels like she might to kill one of her team mates and there is no real threat.

rabbit8 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:Gosh guys! Let's go for the people whose posts are "lacking" rather than those who are pretending to be good and failing remarkably at it!

You're wrong....

Maybe TMI

Scotty wrote:Seeeeeya Elo

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Theory: Scotty is the "mafia" team mate of Elohcin, and he registered as "independent" because he was the one that might betray her.

Not far fetched, but wrong.

the "factions" thing on Elo's role description sounds pretty clear cut to me as there being indies. I however, am not Mafia or indie as would be suggested.

Oh yeah. Of course.

Theory: Scotty is the "mafia" team mate of Elohcin, and he registered as "independent" because he was the one that might betray her.

DrWilgy wrote:So... We lynch Gman next?

Pretty much what I'm thinking.

I think that's just the way it's worded. Elohcin could change her team's night kill secretly if she wanted, even to one of her team mates, but if she did so it would still count as the team's only night kill. That's my interpretation at least.

Just noticed Elohcin's full role was revealed in the OP:

"Receives a role card that informs her of her sanity and that one of her teammates may be plotting against her. Can secretly override the team's decision for a nightkill (by sending her own choice via PM to the Host) and can target any player whatsoever, but is restricted to one successful kill per faction."

TBH if anyone around here pulls that gambit, it's G-Man. He's that kind of player.

If nothing else I'm glad there's been at least some controversy/disagreement in this phase. It helps to alleviate the boredom and low pressure of a landslide tally.

I wouldn't automatically check the person I voted for. In an infodump setup, it's ideal to check people who aren't already to lynch priorities, because they're the ones on whom the game will be decided. It's about checking people who are likely to be there in the end to maximize one's chance of solving the game.

Scotty wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Scotty wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Scotty, Elohcin has since reneged on her baddie claim and resumed playing. Does this mean something to you?

Uh no? Does it you?

No, but I am not simultaneously refuting a G-Man peek.

I'm only saying what I know to be true. do you think it's at least possible that GMan is full of bunk and just got a lucky? Hell, I could have come in and said Colonel Sanders' main ingredient in his chicken is Soylent Green and it could be revealed as so. Doesn't mean I performed a dead chicken seance and learned it. Could be a lucky postulation.

Or, could be a big red bus.

I believe it's plausible. Here's my question for you though:

If G-Man faked the peek and got lucky when Elohcin fell for it, that still implies he is not on her team. So if he is good, what is the purpose of faking an indy peek on you -- especially as a night phase is ending when he might be about to die and thus unable to ever reveal the truth of that fake peek?

Scotty wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Scotty, Elohcin has since reneged on her baddie claim and resumed playing. Does this mean something to you?

Uh no? Does it you?

No, but I am not simultaneously refuting a G-Man peek.

Scotty, Elohcin has since reneged on her baddie claim and resumed playing. Does this mean something to you?

Elohcin wrote:I will not reveal anymore peeks. But if I get a baddie peek, I will do my best to build a convincing case on that player as the game intended.

This line is a part of that claim. It is not a joke.

Elohcin wrote:Dude, why would I for real cop claim after fussing at all of y'all for cop claiming. I could have used sarcastic orange, but that would have ruined the effect, I think.

You were pretending to find the cop claims annoying to support your own fake cop claim -- it makes more sense for the claims to bother you if you're the real cop.

If I had reason to believe he is a docile independent I wouldn't be interested in lynching him, at least not right now. If there's a chance he's a dangerous independent then that's a different story. That's why I'm confused why he refuted the peek outright -- that indicates to me that he is either a dangerous independent or not an independent at all. It'd be silly for him to hide behind the curtains right now if he is a safe indy.

Quin wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:If Scotty is a harmless independent, then I don't know what would hold him back from just telling us that. It's legal to do so. Instead he has outright denied being an independent and called G-Man a liar -- this means one of them must be a liar at least in this instance.

Well that's an easy one.

If he's civ, he's fine.

If he's indie: 'I have no idea who's bad so let's all just lynch Scotty because he's indie and definitely a threat to us'

Quin, I don't quite understand what you're saying here. Could you restate it?

In the unlikely event that G-Man is lying and this leads to a town lynch, he hasn't sealed the win for the baddies by doing so. We'd likely be in a 7 vs. 3 scenario which would be a 5 vs. 3 scenario on the following day -- that's LyLo, but with G-Man all but confirmed as the next lynch and his team mates under significant pressure. I don't think this looks like a ballsy gambit by G-Man, it looks like a cop revealing his peeks.

I think his manner of revealing those peeks was a nice touch too -- at the last second of Night 2 in case he was killed, and then at the start of Day 3 after he wasn't. These are things that can be faked, but if we're going to assert that then the story we're telling about G-Man's gambit quickly becomes more complex, creative, and farfetched. I think it's much easier to believe that Elohcin is just bad.

Scotty is a confusing element in this discussion and I admit that needs to be resolved. I have no idea why G-Man would elect to falsely peek him as "independent" instead of just "civilian", because Scotty would have no reason to argue with the latter and we'd still be lynching Elohcin right now anyway.

I humored Elohcin earlier to try and squeeze a little more data into the thread, but I think she's bad. I don't think this post ever comes from a townie:

Elohcin wrote:I'm fed up with all this cop claiming. Honestly, its ridiculous. I am the true cop, y'all. And I have two green peeks. Night 1 - Daisy - civ. Night 2 - JJJ - civ.

Really, all this cop claiming is going to confuse everyone. A cop is not supposed to just reveal what he/she finds. The cop is supposed to use the info he or she receives and build a case on that person if they find their peek is bad.

This does not look like a "joke" at all to me. It looks like a legitimate cop counterclaim meant to combat G-Man's red peek. This is a pretty perfect example of how baddies usually respond to being outed in a setup like this, often because it's their only choice. Once a cop has revealed him/herself and exposed you, you can either raise your white flag and shut down (to prevent any more information being drawn from your posts), or you can attempt to survive one additional phase by counterclaiming the cop and trying to get that player lynched instead of you. I've seen this a million times.

It's made worse that Elohcin has since claimed this wasn't meant to be taken seriously. I just don't believe that's the truth.

Elohcin wrote:I will not reveal anymore peeks. But if I get a baddie peek, I will do my best to build a convincing case on that player as the game intended.

Now, stop cop claiming so we can have some fun and find some baddies.

3.01

These last statements from the same post pretty much seal the deal for me. She is visibly annoyed to have been victimized by an infodump, and that's because the infodump is correct. This is not how I believe Elohcin would have responded if G-Man's red peek was false; she'd have immediately contested it and attacked him head on. This kind of passive-aggressive complaining about the concept of infodumping alongside a cop counterclaim she has since abandoned are not indicative of a town mindset. They are indicative of a caught mindset.

I think her most recent content is an attempt to show gamesmanship and fight the good fight after having surrendered earlier.

Gotta run for now.

Also, most of the time a cop is not capable of identifying independents. A cop's purpose is to identify town and mafia exclusively, or more accurately "town" and "not town". When a "not town" result appears, it is supposed to leave some ambiguity to facilitate a potential independent role.

Identifying independents is typically a function of a different role. On RYM we called it a rogue cop. Some sites call it an FBI investigator.

Problem is, I have no idea what Ricochet knows about all that and how he might design his alignment checker.

If Scotty is a harmless independent, then I don't know what would hold him back from just telling us that. It's legal to do so. Instead he has outright denied being an independent and called G-Man a liar -- this means one of them must be a liar at least in this instance.

G-Man wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

G-Man wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:G-Man, did your peek on Scotty specifically identify him as "independent" or just "not town"?

Bona fide independent. It was even a lovely shade of golden yellow. I know his role's name too but RicoHost told me that I'm not allowed to divulge that info.


3.

Does the name of his role make you consider him an immediate or long-term threat to the civilian faction?

Bunnies, kittens, rainbows, and happy little clouds didn't exactly come to mind when I saw the name but I haven't seen anything in the host posts or results to make me wary of a nefarious power at work aside from the mafia.


3.14

My chief worry is demolition man, or bomb, or terrorist, or something like that. Something that explodes and kills three people at LyLo.

Quin wrote:If a cop in any regular game gets lucky during the first two nights and was to get a red peek and an indie peek, would they out themselves knowing they'd be killed and hope we could catch the other baddies on our own? Every day they don't reveal their peek is another day they risk being NK'd and being unable to concretely reveal them.

This all depends upon who has the cop role and how badly or well the first two lynches went. I think that under the circumstances, G-Man's actions are believable. We started with two mislynches and he probably felt a little exposed during the night phase.

Don't forget me, Elohcin. I need to know why I am both one of your two civilian peeks and one of your suspects.

G-Man wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:G-Man, did your peek on Scotty specifically identify him as "independent" or just "not town"?

Bona fide independent. It was even a lovely shade of golden yellow. I know his role's name too but RicoHost told me that I'm not allowed to divulge that info.


3.

Does the name of his role make you consider him an immediate or long-term threat to the civilian faction?

Scotty initially started talking about independents after INH was suspecting me for what he perceived to be behavior similar to his own in a past game as a "chaos independent". INH wasn't necessarily calling me indy, he was just suspecting me in general. Scotty might be guilty of being the independent who can't resist the urge to talk about independents.

Scotty wrote:

rabbit8 wrote:@INH: Twitch your eyebrow on day 1 is good enough, IMO, to vote for someone. Thus one reason I'm about ready to give SVS a vote. She brought up sig just to bring him up while saying he was just saying something. I really think she was trying to get others to get a twitch from sig.

But you're advocating a no lynch. I don't agree with you. I have to wonder if a baddie is hiding behind the no lynch to look civvie. I will be looking at you three early no lynch voters harder.

@Scotty: I don't think there would be an indy in this game, but you never know. So clarification is good.

I'm mostly banking on this post by MP RE: Heist games:

MovingPictures07 wrote:We were planning on having a discussion after Zodiac is over, since it's become noted now that the guidelines aren't completely clear, but if any role is anything other than a vanilla role, then it is by definition a power role, not a mechanic. Except for a mafia kill.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Although the Jobs and Side Missions guidelines are meant to be loose, the Heist guidelines are intended to be rather rigid, since these games are designed to be very simple, straightforward games. Experimentation is allowed, but only within the 48/24 and 3 or fewer power roles limit. So going forward if you're a Heist host or thinking about being a Heist host and your game doesn't fit those guidelines to the T, then your game will have to be moved to the Side Mission queue.

I doubt that even one of the power roles would be considered as an indie. And indie does not equal vanilla. I would bet a lot of money that there are no indies in this game.

lol I forgot about this.

One thing I am exploring right now is the possibility that G-Man and Elohcin are team mates, and he is throwing her under the bus with a fake red peek for town credit. I think I am willing to reject that possibility now for a few reasons:

~ Their animosity right now appears genuine, like it would between players opposed to each other

~ G-Man would have to know that such a move would inevitably fail the moment he survives a single night phase.

G-Man, did your peek on Scotty specifically identify him as "independent" or just "not town"?

Quin, I like your observation regarding rabbit's Vompatti vote, Wilgy's relevance to it, and rabbit's questionable testimony about those events.

For me, the biggest hitch of a rabbit/S~V~S baddie combination is rabbit's quick aggression against S~V~S on Day 1. That's harsh distancing/bussing if they're team mates.

I'll spare further thoughts until Elohcin has finished discussing her suspects.

Epignosis wrote:I have to offer this as Devil's Advocate:

If she's bad...didn't anybody on her team explain how this setup works?

Might be a good reason to dissociate her from Daisy, who experienced the best benefits of cop cover first hand in Arrested Development. She'd be better prepared for this stuff from the other side than most others here.

I don't really suspect you, Daisy. I only included you in my answer to G-Man's question because you've been distracted by other matter during this game and by default would be more likely to overlook any given post.

I'm excited to see your reasons.

*eats Wilgy's popcorn*

I believe you, Elohcin. Who do you think is bad?