The Syndicate

Simon wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:58 pm I voted bwt. I'm pretty sure he is bad.

Tell me about it Simon! Why do you think he is bad?

Kylemii wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:42 pm If there's something I see as being a point towards him being civ, it's his list of things he thought I was doing that are things that are, according to him, mafia tells for his playstyle...

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:14 ama lot of tactics I employ when mafia. Focus on mechanisms. Lots of fluffiness. Lots of civ reads and de-escalation and very little active accusations have come from him.

assuming this is a true description of Mac's scum meta, this basically reads as a list of things that are the exact opposite of what this Mac is doing and saying. this Mac is to the point, has only 2 civ reads, and has done nothing but escalate things, and he has been running around smacking everyone with his battle axe.

Mac's game is more diverse than that. I can believe that he has employed some of those tactics before as a mafia player, but those don't exclusively describe his mafia play. He wasn't like that in the 2015 Game of Champions or Talking Heads.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:32 pm I’ll come back to my town read on Mac, but let’s start with JOH. From what I can tell my gut read is usually right but here I’m inclined to keep him alive because I know him better.
I read through some of his Maf games and he doesn’t seem to be following that pattern, but he also isn’t playing what I would consider to be typical JOH town behavior day 1. So a null meta read, which is unfortunate. I’ll post on substance in just a second.

Please describe the civilian and mafia meta expectations you have for Jack.

Elohcin wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:45 pm I'm 8 pages behind. I honestly won't catch up but...from what I have read and posted....I am going with a made vote. I'm not sure why people are going for Mac so if anyone wants to share, that would be cool.

Please click and report back:

Kylemii wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:47 pm in fact i did see it as a red flag, until you and Jay reassured me that this was just part of his meta, is it a part of mac meta in all alignments?

Mac is highly aggressive and abrasive as a civilian and as a mafioso. I don't like to judge Mac by meta, because he is one of the better manipulators of that method I know (both as a hunter-by-meta and a deceiver-by-meta). His content is best assessed at face value.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:17 pm @Made @JaggedJimmyJay what do you think is the strongest point against Mac right now?

His treatment | of Made

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:04 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:28 am Mac that yellow pile makes me want to throw up. I want to vomit right now. Actually now I am vomiting. I am puking all over my fingers as I type this. This is so fucking disgusting. I can't believe this is happening. I need to just get up and go to my toilet. I better end this post. Oh my goodness there is puke everywhere.

Why does this post exist?

I hate null reads, and once in a while even I make a post for fun.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:50 pm

This is exactly how I interpret wilgy in this game right now. I don't see a mafia motivation for his actions.
[/quote]

Could be. I'm feeling more cozy with my Mac vote right now anyway.

speedchuck, tell me of nutella.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:37 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:34 pm I am not inclined to vote for wilgy. As a loose impression I feel like zany, befuddling wilgy is more apt to be town. In recent memory, I cite Pirates wilgy (town) posting exclusively in emojis vs. Vocaroo/Seinfeld/Mountains wilgy (mafia) who featured no notable gimmicks that I can remember. His blind insistence that I am bad strikes me as a wilgy gimmick.

See, I don't think so. Because Wilgy was helpful with the emoji's, and was reasoned and such. (I know I said the opposite during that game, but I lied. I was mafia.)
This game doesn't strike me as a gimmick. It strikes me as a ploy to cover up his lower-effort mafia play.

I'm more on speedchuck's side here. Wilgy was a terrible lynch in Pirates because his emojis were clearly oriented toward a hunt, and the civilians were too lazy to figure that out. In this game I don't really have a clue what Wilgy is doing. All I could guess in the civilian spectrum would be "tunnel Sloonei and see how people handle it". I don't really get that impression.

Y'all please tell me about sig.

I could lynch Wilgy. My vote is on Mac. I am definitely not lynching Kyle or Sloonei, whose present wagons frankly mystify me.

Long Con wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:09 pm Sure thing. Sometimes on Day 1, the lack of glaring scumtells and the absence of power-result-information or flips will lead people to say "I have no idea, let's just get rid of someone who isn't playing as much and pick it up for Day 2." kinda thing. Yes?

If that's where you this lynch, then so be it. I have probably cast a Day 1 low-poster vote more than once, so it's not like I shouldn't have my turn. You'd be lynching a Civ though.

I'm pretty open to moving my vote. Do you have any recommendations?

Sloonei wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:08 pm Here's Made's reasons for suspecting Mac as stated earlier. Here's Mac's response. Made, how do you feel about Mac's handling of your suspicion?
Everyone else, how do you feel about both players in this exchange?

Made's accusations look authentic and reasoned. I kind of hate this:

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:52 pm Okay so you are suspicious of me for playing the way I play in every game.

Mac "playing the way he plays in every game" tends to draw suspicion by nature, and I don't care for his desire to earn meta points.

I suspect sig. He gave a bunch of town reads including a dubious pass for Long Con, and the only suspicion he didn't in some way retract was "speedchuck saying he'd vote dunya is strange" -- the weakest of sauce. He was vaguely critical of Kyle and Sloonei, but didn't stick to either.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:34 pm Macdougall is my top suspect at the present moment. Discuss.

Is there more to it than your disagreements?

Sloonei wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:51 pm

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:52 pm Ask questions about mundane things. Get mundane answers. "Uninspiring."

Ask for gth reads. Get gth reads. "Not thought out."

You can summarize it for yourself. What a bullshit question.

what do people think of this post? I got the sense this was genuine frustration from Jack, in a place where I think a scum player might have been more responsive to my requests. I don't agree with his assessment of my prior analysis of him, but the emotion in this post feels authentic. If there's anything Jack has said which might get me to move my vote, it's this.

Throughout my interactions with Jack I have been trying to sort the difference between two perspectives: Jack is suspicious or Jack is confusing. The latter is definitely true in this game for me, but it doesn't imply the former. In that regard, if Jack is a civilian and is becoming frustrated, I think it should reflect that he is not getting his points across legibly to others. I do get that impression when he talks to you, and I don't get it when he talks to me. I'm also his suspect and you're not. I think for the moment I am willing to move on from this, because on some level it feels like Phenon Mafia. I just returned to that to judge my errant suspicion of him in that game, and while I wasn't quite so confused by him, I did have some difficulty getting him to answer questions and accusations in a manner that I immediately understood. Everything required follow-up questions and further clarification.

He's going to keep making posts, and if he's bad it'll reveal itself more clearly later.

sig wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:15 pm Speed saying he'd vote for dunya was strange.

Why is that strange? What does strange mean?

Long Con wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:06 pm Hey, now I'm vote leader. Look dudes, I'm Civ. Take it like I'm Glorfindel this one time. Lynch me if you want a low poster. I'm reading along and hopefully some Mafia instincts will kick back in at some point.

Please clarify what you mean by this.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:01 am Actually I'm gonna drop made to orange. I don't see how putting out a scum read on someone and then not explaining why with even as much as a 'just a hunch' explanation is at all civvie and it's not responsible civ play even if he is one. Sort of nonsense that creates a game environment that allows scum players to hide in plain sight.

Let's see how civilian MacDougall responded to mafia JJJ in Transistor Mafia when told that civilians don't drop votes into a game without any kinds of explanations:

Mac that yellow pile makes me want to throw up. I want to vomit right now. Actually now I am vomiting. I am puking all over my fingers as I type this. This is so fucking disgusting. I can't believe this is happening. I need to just get up and go to my toilet. I better end this post. Oh my goodness there is puke everywhere.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:16 am okay then I guess you'd be the one to ask... would you consider Mac's treatment of his suspicion of me to be pretty typical Mac meta?

Something you just said actually made me chuckle, because it is a good depiction of the man we call MacDougall as a Mafia player:

Kylemii wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:10 amit seems like you've made a decision about me that you're now trying to brute-force into reality.

I wouldn't say he's trying to brute-force his read into reality, but he is pursuing it with an aggressiveness and thoroughness that is typical of him. I don't think his conduct is a concern on any meta grounds.

Quin wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:15 am jaggedjimmyjay how is it you have a self imposed post restriction yet you're still 2nd place in terms of post count?

I'm a colossal failure.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:11 am And if his vested interest was on winning the game via not beinf lynched day 1 as mafia?

I think his posts would look different and that there'd be fewer of them. They'd be more self-obsessed. He'd be playing more defense and prodding into others less frequently.

It is clear we don't agree on this matter, and I'd prefer to end my part in this dialogue. I am trying not to inflate the thread with these lengthy exchanges.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:05 am I'm not tunneling Jimmy. That's unfair and for someone who influences most of the play to say that is not appropriate. I have made reads on a lot of players and I have given quin lots of time to change my mind too.

That wasn't an accusation or a dig. I don't view tunneling as an inherently bad thing. If you don't think you're doing it, sure okay.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:00 am Quin, Jay have you played with Mac before?

I have probably played 50-60 games with MacDougall. We both got our start in Mafia on RYM, along with Sloonei and dunya.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:54 am And do you know Quin to be an inactive mafia member? I consider him one of the finer and more confident mafia members I have ever had the pleasure of teaming with.

And I don't see that much solving. Am I missing where he has made some great and insightful civvie posts?

I don't know him to be an inactive mafia member. I would expect less concerted effort than I saw from him though with Internet problems hampering him if he didn't have a vested interest in figuring out the game. I think his posts bear that appearance too, even without necessarily being great and insightful. Granted, if this Internet issue was the only thing I liked about Quin I probably wouldn't have found the same inspiration to change my mind about him. It was one point among a few.

If you want to hang out in the tunnel for a while, be my guest. I've moved on for the time being.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:46 am Generally yes but in this context in particular? You genuinely feel that the average player is more likely to seek out alternative ways to play the game as a civvie than mafia?

In a vacuum, absolutely yes. Mafia members slank off more in general, and when the universe hands them an excuse to do it free of judgment, many of them are going to be very pleased -- even those who've been under some pressure. Also consider the character of Quin's involvement in this period of connectivity issues: is he merely fending off accusations and assure survival, or is he attempting to solve the game?

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:37 amIf you want me to do something with that much effort assist me.

I just did that.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:34 am So Jimmy you are saying that there is no value in considering what you would do in a situation when assessing what another player would do, at all, unless they were a similar player to you?

I would say that the value is limited. It might serve as a baseline in the absence of any known personality or play style (like if I am playing on a new site or judging a newcomer from another site). I don't hold other players to my own standards if I already know they don't play the way I do, because other players generally aren't hopelessly competitive and obsessive like I can be. That's to their credit.

A direct parallel I can draw for Quin is to the RED vs. BLUE game, when Golden and I screamed at him for a while, eventually leading to his mislynch. One of the reasons I was screaming was Quin's handling of his other accuser, Golden. I thought it looked terrible and I lynched him and he was a civilian. Looking back now at Day 0 of this game, I was screaming at him at least in part for his handling of an accuser (me) and his general obstinate reception of that felt familiar.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:06 am Quin seems fine. He was obstinate in the face of my bossy ass, something I think is typical of his civilian play, and I like that he has continued to find ways into this thread despite Internet troubles at home which would leave him a reasonable excuse to slank off.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:38 pm

Quin wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:31 pm 3J, why are you town reading me now? I'm wary of how you went about dropping the suspicion on me.

I decided I believed your comments about being lazy and worn out of playing at a crazy level, and in that context your posts don't really look that bad. I actually found myself feeling a bit of the same thing when I started getting shit and that was telling. All else aside and despite that weariness of the game, you've been heavily involved and weren't deterred by heavy pressure right out of the gate. That's a difficult task for any mafioso. Plus there was the thing you mentioned about your Internet screwing up, and I liked that you were still trying to find ways to keep your presence felt here.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:17 am Your posts look busy and look like you. You know that. You also know that it's the detail in which you can unravel so asking me to go read your posts like that is facetious.

I have no idea what any of these three sentences mean. Please restate them another way.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:17 amYou sound like you would rather me just assume you are civ? What does that sound like? Dare we not question you?

What? I didn't say that or anything similar to that. I didn't imply that or anything similar to that. You said my crappy-Internet-based reason for changing my mind on Quin looked bad. There were other reasons too, and I want you to talk to me about those as well if you're going to judge my turn on Quin. I also asked you a question about Quin earlier which I don't believe you addressed directly.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:17 amWhat you would do is very relevant when in the context of your analysis of players. Answer my question without the defensiveness.

Its relevance is very limited. Nearly nobody on the Internet plays Mafia the way I play Mafia. I might care about that if I am assessing a Sloonei or a MovingPictures07. To judge Quin based upon my own behavior and tendencies does not make sense, because Quin plays this game quite differently to me.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:06 am Personally I would like to ultimately see quin lynched. I feel he is the most compelling lynch and given the volume he has posted if the only good reason anyone has to refute the bad stuff is that he would probably not post as much as a mafia player with bad internet well I disagree and that's an awful reason.

Jimmy. If you were a mafia player who had bad internet and were one of the few players looking lynchable would you post with less frequency than if you were town with bad internet? I feel entirely the opposite and having really thought about it I really question the nature of the analysis from you. Bad look.

I would probably find a public place with wi-fi and post from the restroom stalls. I don't give a shit what I would do. Quin is not me. That also wasn't the only reason I changed my mind about Quin. Go read my posts and then tell me how bad they look.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:07 am Is there more to be said about why Long Con is the most compelling suspect?

I don't know that I'd call him the "most compelling" suspect. However, if I take my orange reads and remove the two first-timers as well as Jack**, I'm left with Wilgy, Marmot, and Long Con. The former two have given little reason for civilian credit, and I already lost interest in the one positive note I made about Wilgy earlier. They're also the sorts of players though who cannot reliably be read in that way, because they don't tend to accumulate civilian credit when they're civilians. Long Con is the exception, a player who I'd expect to have done something in this game by now that'd make him more readily readable.

**Jack is a candidate I would consider lynching. Before I continue down that tunnel however I want to see what he does with the case you compiled.

I voted Long Con again.

Long Con wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:26 pm He answered that, it's because I haven't contributed anything to the game. It's not because I'm bad, it's because I have nothing to say at this time. Only one thing has triggered me as suspicious, and it's Made's player salad a few posts back, asking like 10 people a different quick question. I'll vote for Made for now. Other than that, not much has pulled me into this game, just a lot of huffing and puffing that doesn't much strike me as particularly civ or bad.

I can understand and respect a desire to relax early in a game after his recent engagements with Epignosis. I struggle to believe though that the only thing in this thread he felt was worth his discussion was that Made post. Day 1 or not, we're over 700 posts in this thread.

Glorfindel

Sloonei
Kylemii

speedchuck
Made
lapluie
Quin
nutella
Simon
TonyStarkPrime
Elohcin
MacDougall

birdwithteeth11
Dom
Gumshoe

Dave
DrWilgy
Marmot
novaselinenever
Jackofhearts2005
Long Con

If you've questions, give 'em to me.

nutella sounds genuine.

Sloonbeard, can you summarize your suspicion of Jack?

Sloonei wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:32 pm Marmot

This one intrigues me.

Simon wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:22 pm If I made a rainbow list, everyone would be yellow. I mean come on, the game is just starting.

I read Simon's one post positively. I don't think he'd be hard-pressed to pretend he has reads as a mafioso. In this case he looked at all of us like we're crazy for thinking we know what we're doing on Day 0 and yellow'd everyone. He might be right.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:14 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:25 pm Food for thought: Jay reads me better than any other mafia player on Earth. I will arrogantly claim that I read him better than any other mafia player on Earth. We've both called each other "lock town reads" already in this game. How do people feel about this?

Get a room

First nomination for 2018 best quote has been submitted.

Moved my vote to nutella.

[mention]nutella[/mention], a question for you:

In Mountain Mafia, you opened the game with a perspective of just do it on Day 1, allowing yourself to play "fast-and-loose" and voting as your whims inspired. Example

In this game you seem to be playing from a more timid, uncertain vantage point. You played very well in the mountains game and had a lot of success. Why do you think you've changed in this regard?

sig wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:10 pm I'm surprised Made, JJJ, quin ect took the first page so serious it's odd seeing how it is day 0 first page.

What does this mean to you?

Kylemii wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:53 pm btw how large is the sample size for glorfindel's "I am town" meta

It's not really a matter of sample size if you ask me. All I need to know is that he was not town in Mad Max, and no matter how hard I tried or how I framed the question, he would not claim to be town (or answer me period). Quin was on his mafia team and corroborates that. The man doesn't lie; that's his moral decision and I believe him completely.

Epignosis is indeed my biggest mafia read.

Quin wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:42 pm That said, you went from wall posts about things that reflect badly on me to responding to me with "I think you're probably town" and haven't brought me up since. It's as though you were going cold turkey on interacting with me and I'm not sure how to take it. It at least makes me uncomfortable.

Yep. I can spend three pages of thread space calling someone scum, and if I end up changing my mind I am perfectly willing to drop it cold turkey. There's no use wasting time in the gray zone. I have no specific intention to avoid interaction with you, but with a different perspective now I have less reason to specifically seek your posts out.

Quin wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:39 pm Either I or someone else should go through the relevant people's posts to figure out if this is player salad or not.

When I think of "player salad" it's more of a broad web of players in a suspicion pool (other than one derived by POE). It looks something like this:

"Today I would be willing to vote for X or Y or Z or maybe... W."

In that regard Made's question salad doesn't look functionally like player salad to me. It does look like question salad though. Made should talk about what interest he has in those questions.

I'll answer mine:

Gun-to-head I would call Mac a civilian. We mind-melded a bit early in Day 0 in a way that I doubt was intentional copy-catting from him.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:36 pm What's the case on Dave? I won't vote him on Day 1 to be nice but I still want to understand all the suspicion on someone who has made little impression on me this game.

"Case" is probably not the right word for a guy with two posts:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:18 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:15 am Dave's bad. Discuss.

I'd agree that he's more suspicious than the other minimal-posters. I agreed with your earlier reception of his first post, that it seemed a bit forced, and all we got tonight was a basic response to an @ tag.

I'm not lynching him today either. Same goes for novaselinenever and lapluie and any other first-timers.