The Syndicate

Gonna start ISOing everyone while I have some time. I may prioritize the people in the poll. That doesn't exonerate Rondo or Martin, but I don't want to spend my finite playing resources on people that cannot be voted for. If time permits I'll cover them too.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 1:13 am Rico I've read their ISO like 3 times and honestly aside from a few very small examples, I cannot tell what they're thinking about the players they are discussing. Maybe I am just having trouble understanding them, but I also see this from people who are good at scum sometimes, speaking in such a way that can be interpreted later however they want. The one place they seem to take a strong stance on was Scotty, but that was something that was a "nosescratcing" post early on, and only once Rico was a viable wagon does he push hard there.

My impression of Rico is that he has tried to provide nuance and take care about the way he discusses the things he discusses in a similar way to myself. I believe there are takes in there; they just don't always come in that succinct "town read/mafia read" format. I cannot point to a specific example off-hand though, so I will consider what you've said when I review Rico today. I intend to review everyone.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 1:24 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 1:19 am Could anyone that suspects Rico please just summarize their gripes? A single sentence would be super.
I literally did that like 3 posts before this one. Are you reading me, or?

I've been answering some unrelated questions and saw that the topic of Rico was being discussed. I'll go check what you said.

Zenon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 12:26 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 10:54 pm
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 10:49 pm Talk to me about Neon plz, cuz I'm having troubles finding them as town
I think she decently resembles the town version of her that I saw in champs this season, primarily by way of interrogative chutzpah, and also her skepticism of people she thinks are being too widely town read (especially tutuu), and her exasperation about feeling ignored. I acknowledge the appeal to emotion in the last bit, but I don't really care about that.

Do you have specific concerns about her?
I actually don't really understand how feeling frustrated that I personally felt ignored at EoD is AtE

I know sometimes that term comes with a negative connotation, so no slight was intended. It's only "AtE" if you're mafia and milking it to dissuade suspicion, so add "potential for" after "acknowledge the" in my post. I don't get that impression though.

Zenon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 12:23 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 10:12 pm
You have an axe named Lucy. You do not need to pick “wood.” You always have wood.

If you are lynched on an Odd Day, you will transform into a Werebeaver. Before succumbing to death, you will have one chance at Night to kill someone who voted for you. You are not required to kill anyone.
Assuming Scotty was responsible for one of the kills, it had to be Vivax. S~V~S didn't have her vote on him at EOD.
Makes sense Scotty would kill his CW that's just good play.

D1 was T v T and a claimed doc who's hard defending the best player in this PL is still alive?

Yeah I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say there's at least one in Tutuu JJJ cause that just doesn't track for me but I'm not gonna hard push it.

I will vote: Tutuu though.

tutuu claimed that both she and I would be protected (see claim), and I received notice to verify that at least for myself.

Could anyone that suspects Rico please just summarize their gripes? A single sentence would be super.

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 11:54 pm That's what I've not been seeing from you...just a general short list of ain't voting for today.

Perhaps I've missed it?

The closest thing to a comprehensive list I have posted is this. I've primarily been working within dialogues about single or smaller groups of players, so it may not always be consolidated that neatly. But it's there.

Otherwise I'm not sure what you referred to in your other comment, unless you mean full-scale associative reads charting. That's something I would like to attempt this day phase. I'd do it every day, but it's a ton of work (especially in a bigger game like this one). I don't always have the time or frankly the desire.

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 10:49 pm Talk to me about Neon plz, cuz I'm having troubles finding them as town

I think she decently resembles the town version of her that I saw in champs this season, primarily by way of interrogative chutzpah, and also her skepticism of people she thinks are being too widely town read (especially tutuu), and her exasperation about feeling ignored. I acknowledge the appeal to emotion in the last bit, but I don't really care about that.

Do you have specific concerns about her?

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 10:46 pm Who's in yer town group thus far?

I feel pretty good or better about each of the following:

Martin
Ricochet
Rondo
tutuu
Zenon

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 10:30 pm Sounds good to me, and I look forward to it. Truth be told I haven't fully wrapped my head around the camps thing, and I think part of that is that maybe the two camps are organized differently. Like the 1st camp is largely organized by a commonality of town reads, and the 2nd camp is organized by a commonality of either susses or "I would be ok throwing this out". From the limited time I was at EoD, it seemed like there were only two groups of voters and they usually followed each-other. Sometimes that was because of me, sometimes it wasn't.

I'm unsure how productive looking into this could be though. It was day 1 after all, and I doubt its something the mafia were simply masterfully manipulating to their advantage while simultaneously being aware of it. Day 1 had plenty of posts and not everyone was able to keep up all the time. If there is some core issue with our collective solving however I'm all for detecting it and setting things clear.

To be clear, I don't suggest that we dig back into this "camps" dynamic as a means for solving the game. Perhaps one could try to do that; it might yield interesting things. My intended message was more about how we move forward though, and I direct it at myself too. If our communication is just plain better as a group, then I think that'll be an important boon.

My own solving methodology will be more conventional. ISOs. Associations. Bread and butter.

You have an axe named Lucy. You do not need to pick “wood.” You always have wood.

If you are lynched on an Odd Day, you will transform into a Werebeaver. Before succumbing to death, you will have one chance at Night to kill someone who voted for you. You are not required to kill anyone.

Assuming Scotty was responsible for one of the kills, it had to be Vivax. S~V~S didn't have her vote on him at EOD.

I don't have much time right now to dig in, but I do have some baseline philosophy of the game that I think is pertinent:

Day 1 was characterized by some frustrating trends. The game seemed to be weirdly factionalized (not in the usual way) between "reads camps", such that any one person's town reads suspected each other in various different iterations (especially my town reads), and there wasn't much cohesion or purpose to what was happening. That's going to need to change for this game to get onto the right track, and there is still plenty of time to see that it does. This doesn't mean anyone needs to change their reads necessarily, but it does demand an open ear and willingness to hear each other out.

I have a few methods in mind to sort things more thoroughly, and I will in due time.

I thought day started later. I've been getting my time zones screwed up

[VOTE: lasagna] aubergine

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:56 pm
MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:42 pm I've take a short break from playing with my friend as it has come to my attention that I'm the top wagon for some reason.

Given that I do not have much time to spend here and make a case or push, I am forced to claim.

I'm a role that can completely wipe out any mechanically-added votes against a person. I'm not claiming character, and not specifying the flavor in which that takes place (or if there are any limits to what vote-manipulation I can deny), in case there's character anti-claim. Ideally with these limits I have not satisfied any anti-claim against me while satisfactorily describing my role.

If this gets me night-killed then its probably better that way than to be misyeeted over what seems to be largely shrug yeeting and/or unsubstantiated cases (from what I could limitedly read while playing with my friend).

@S~V~S

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:42 pm I've take a short break from playing with my friend as it has come to my attention that I'm the top wagon for some reason.

Given that I do not have much time to spend here and make a case or push, I am forced to claim.

I'm a role that can completely wipe out any mechanically-added votes against a person. I'm not claiming character, and not specifying the flavor in which that takes place (or if there are any limits to what vote-manipulation I can deny), in case there's character anti-claim. Ideally with these limits I have not satisfied any anti-claim against me while satisfactorily describing my role.

If this gets me night-killed then its probably better that way than to be misyeeted over what seems to be largely shrug yeeting and/or unsubstantiated cases (from what I could limitedly read while playing with my friend).

wilgy, rico, and vivax have food / martin, scotty don't

would go back to Wilgy over Martin, but hunger still applies

tutuu wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:49 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:48 pm [VOTE: Vivax] aubergine
I can vote vivax toi. Scotty isnt here to switch. Can we save martin?

Looks like the door is open

Zenon wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:48 pm I'm largely invisible

*spooky ghost noises*

I always see you, Zenon. Right there where you are.

[VOTE: Vivax] aubergine

I JUST PULLED A MUSCLE IN MY FOOT EFFING OW

I'd rather vote Vivax than the other non-Wilgy wagons.

Why is Wilgy town?

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:28 pm I can't fact check it...or I don't feel like fact checking but like.

JJJ did you sus Vivax first and Scotty outed the sus second or was that point bullshit?

I was first

My main takeaway from Rico's case was that it strengthened my impression of Rico.

One thing in particular that I liked from Martin that I also liked from Ricochet: each of them received and discussed my suspicions of Vivax with nuance. They expressed their own perspectives, including those not in alignment with mine, but did not shade either Vivax or I in the process. In each case, it struck me as an outside observer providing a genuine viewpoint.

@Lime Coke what do you think of Rico's case against Scotty?

S~V~S wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:16 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:10 pm @DrWilgy @S~V~S could you describe what you found off about Martin? You may have already clarified, so I will check quickly too.
Alot of it was his interfacing with Scotty tbh. I also really didn't like that whole faux TMI trap he says he set that no one ever explained to me when i asked about it. That kind of trick/trap stuff always rubs me the wrong way. Like I know it's just a game, but I don't expect civs to do that.

I had asked you before, maybe you missed it, why do you TR him?

While I do think it would be hilarious if Scotty took me down with him, and am kind of in love with the idea, I could also move to Martin. Although i will loathe all the little barbs and insinuations from Scotty should be both live.

I provided a sliver of an answer here. To expand: I think he has displayed good attention to detail, seems quite earnest in his efforts to sort players, the structure of the game itself, and the climate of the thread. I don't really fault you for casting doubt on the "TMI slip" thing, because it's an unorthodox play and can come off as weird or unnecessary. I don't really hold that against Martin though, because I think it makes sense for his personality (he has a mind for unorthodox play in both alignments), and I have done similar things on occasion in the past. I would be more concerned if he seemed to wield that experiment opportunistically, but I didn't get that impression.

I appreciate your answer anyway and am thinking it over with what time remains.

Scotty wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:15 pm I haven’t checked, why is rico voting me? Is it self prez?

Rico cased you outright. click here

Scotty wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:12 pm Do you think my hint is more likely a mafia power or town power?

I have no idea, but if it's some kind of vengeful hint then in my 12 years that role is probably mafia more often than the randomizer would predict.

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:09 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:09 pm Vote preference for the current 2+ vote wagons:

Wilgy > Scotty > Rico > tutuu

We're not trapped on these four though. We have 51 minutes, and it could be anyone.
You think Scotty has a higher chance of flipping mafia than Rico?

I'm not thrilled with voting either one, but yes -- even if only for the spooky

hints.

@DrWilgy @S~V~S could you describe what you found off about Martin? You may have already clarified, so I will check quickly too.

Vote preference for the current 2+ vote wagons:

Wilgy > Scotty > Rico > tutuu

We're not trapped on these four though. We have 51 minutes, and it could be anyone.

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:07 pm Yeah it's been back and forth and I just ended up voting him instead.

Don't find him towny besides his responses to votes.

Are you able to describe your concern, even if just vaguely?

The game is a bit weird, as some of my town reads have been opposed to each other at various junctures. It's difficult to find cohesion and consolidation in that environment. Sometimes it be like that.

I have experienced some turbulence with my read on @Scotty. Hopefully my man is still here to talk with me.

Vivax wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:01 pm Maybe there‘s a mafia traitor/recruitable member mechanic cause that‘s where I‘d place JJJ probably.

Maybe I‘m biased but they vibe strongly like deliberate antagonism in places.

I have no desire to antagonize. I've even tried to keep the thread peaceful within reason. I may have antagonized you just by way of suspicion, as I don't really follow your process. I'm always listening though and encourage you to respond to my gripes and/or continue your own hunt as you see fit.

Spoiler: show

Lime Coke on Ricochet

Scotty wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 6:48 pm I dare you to vote me

Scotty wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 6:54 pm It’s ok.

spooky

Scotty wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 6:50 pm Ironically, I view SVS, who isn’t voting me here, the most scummy person not on my wagon.

She keeps pussyfooting around what she thinks of me, and it’s so noncommittal that *i’m* not buying it

I suggested before that I am not entirely clear on your suspicion of S~V~S. Take me back before this most recent couple of pages -- was it purely her treatment of you? What about her was careful or tricksy? Please try to answer quickly if you have somewhere to be. A single sentence summary would be super.

S~V~S wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 6:36 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 6:32 pm Is there a reason that falcon should not be voted out
Is there a reason he should be? I don't read him well, I tend to sheep Zenons opinion there.

Wilgy says you TR Martin. What am I missing? He felt a bit shifty to me, and I never understood the faux TMI slip thing he supposedly set up to catch Zenon?

I just read him and he didn't say anything I felt positive about.

I just don't see town in him, and both of his votes bug me.

I think Martin seems authentic in his work, and #685 is a nice summary of that even if not my whole read. I don't take much from the "TMI slip" thing. Martin seemed like he was trying to progress his own view of the game via Zenon, and I don't think he has wielded that "experiment" in a problematic way.

Spoiler: show

Vivax wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 3:20 am
Ricochet wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 2:40 am Page two and the mech talk is fine, I suppose. Easy pocket material, tho, especially with the prevalent "ooh tutuu is town for mechtalking this much" sentiment.

Tutuu still bit wishwashy or just plain derpy now with the whole "town be swag and not pick food" but then "oh wait getting increasingly hungry will lose game for town" progression.

Ping on Rondo asking to be grouped with the mechtalkers. For what? Or what kind of cred?

I don't think the game will be faultily designed (especially with this being an Epig game) as to reach a mechanical loss i.e. fX town being starved or mafia hogging all the protections each time.
I'm not too fond of this post for its structure. Could be excessively designed to appear contributive. The suspicion on Rondo and the reaction OMGUS is interesting if it goes further, otherwise I could see them both doing some early distancing with this.

Vivax wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 5:53 pm
Ricochet wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 5:47 pm Of those, Vivax exhibits either a loss of steam during the second half of today or increasingly less convincing angles and ideas, this vote being the lowest
That‘s a good town case on me in this game state.
Because all I can do right now just as any other town who doesn’t exhibit exceptional confidence is more or less to float about carelessly hoping I don‘t get murdarad

Vivax wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 4:05 am I thought it was performative at the time, that‘s about it.
Thread context was rather relaxed iirc and rico appeared like someone who had a pressure to post more than necessary based on that post.

Stadium commentator vibes.
In hindsight it‘s not that important to me, there‘s better fish to fry.

Vivax wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 5:17 am
Ricochet wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 5:09 am Die_meatball, please be mindful of Rule 4, if you are serious in tone and replies.

If it’s not or a defensive thing or an injoke thing, please clarify.
To jump to her defense a little bit, she´s the impulsive type and likes to post in hyperbole but I hope nobody takes it personally as she needs to build a more nuanced mafia persona which requires practice so she´s going to exhibit that ´wooden mallet to close targets´ posting style for a while, probably.

I believe that post tone = exacerbated yelling directed at tutuu is a strong town point nontheless.

Vivax wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 5:35 am
MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 5:30 am
My justification (specifically the reasoning regarding the claim) was only provided when I decided to defend Tutuu, and only did so in the interest of potentially solving Zenon (and maybe others who interacted with the TMI assumption). Multiple people have implied or directly said before-then that Tutuu was not going to be the chop for the day, so there was no real towncred in defending Tutuu or re-affirming a consistent read I've had since early into the game. Maybe I would've looked smart, but that intelligence would've held very little impact in people's eyes. It wouldn't have changed the game at all really.

Not everyone figures mafia day 1. Unless you're Macdougall, in which case at some point in the day everyone has been figured as mafia at one point or another.

The only credit I am giving to you about your suspicions of me is that its semi-accurate, in that is generally one of my go-to's as mafia. Most notably whenever I decide to white-knight someone. But Tutuu did not need white-knighting and I wasn't going to gain anything from it. I only engaged in something looking of the sort when Zenon persisted in their suspicion of Tutuu.
I´d be interested into your reads on rico, scotty, JJJ. No explanation required.

I´d ask about tutuu too (don´t spell it out loudly) but you think the claim made her town, while I keep in mind that fakeclaiming is possible. That´s what made me think you used an information angle where you knew she was town and threw the read out as a form of appeasement/earning townreads.

Vivax wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 11:36 am Not really the list in order of confidence type but my elimination pool for today would be Rico/Martin/SVS, most realistically. I roughly agree with most placements in Seanzie´s list which is a blunt way to describe it but I am happy to ascribe to it.

That´s cause I was able to get some information from them. Wildcards for me would be Wilgy/motobot. Porscha initially too but she´s town from the latest tone in her posts imo, method worked for me so far I think. Lime Coke idk either I can have others figure it out.

Seanzie seems town.

Vivax wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 6:10 pm [VOTE: ricochet] aubergine

I'm not sure Vivax has done much to develop this Rico read. As far as I can tell, the suspicion provided is still centered upon the "structure" referenced in the first post here. Otherwise he has held Rico as a name among suspects without further commentary and then contributed to him being a 3-vote wagon. Wet fart noise.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 6:32 pm Is there a reason that falcon should not be voted out

I was already a bit skeeved, and the vote he just put on Scotty does not give an impression of one that cares about the roof

Is there a reason that falcon should not be voted out

Belzy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 4:16 pm I cannot read 1k posts rn. So colourful read list get my attention.

Understandable! I'll let you absorb the game at your own pace.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 4:15 pm I skimmed Martin and my brain stopped working halfway through.

Someone tell me their thoughts on the slot.

I think he has seemed quite earnest in his assessments of mechanics, other players, and the climate of the game itself. The middle one means more than the other two, and at least you can get the meat of that primarily in his big wall post.

Belzy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 4:14 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 3:42 pm
Belzy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 1:09 pm Tutuu is leading wagon, but also a (top) town read by many - how did this happen?
Hey Belzy, about how much of the thread have you read so far?
Close to nothing. Moslty I looked at ppl's readlist.

Okay, thanks for answering. Did you poke around looking for reads lists in particular?

I'm wondering if Belzy's awareness of the threadstate for tutuu (being top town read by numerous people while also being the top wagon) represents a problematic disconnect from their engagement level. The poll is visible enough granted, but I'm not sure one can know how others read tutuu without reading a reasonable portion of the game.

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 4:03 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 3:44 pm falcon seems to have no suspects beyond a lone barely-explained Creature vote. I am perturbed.
I am suffering from some form of malaise, of whose origins I know not

I hope you feel better soon and that you discover the origins of your ailment for vengeance.

Are you content to push Creature?

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 4:01 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 4:01 pm
DrWilgy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 3:55 pm Good morning. Haven't read shit. Why are we yeeting JJJ and Tutuu?
You tell me.
I'm just jelly of your looks tbh

You know, Mafia threads need more posts like this one right here.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 3:55 pm Good morning. Haven't read shit. Why are we yeeting JJJ and Tutuu?

You tell me.

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