LoRab and Black Rock
LoRab wrote:Black Rock wrote:LoRab wrote:Ugh. Just got home from a long day at work during which I had no time to mafia--so just read through everything since last night. Waiting for dinner to get here and will then answer the points made about me. In short, I'll say I'm not bad. I have nothing to hide. Eye me all you want. *twirls*
But, yeah, I'll go back and quote posts and make an actual defense when I'm on a full stomach.
Oh good, I've been waiting on you all day. I look forward to seeing what you have to say, the twirl stopped meaning anything to me years ago.
Fell asleep on the couch about 5 minutes into the episode I started of Making of a Murderer. Now I'm up and groggy and cranky. Sorry you have to wait until morning.
And I know my twirling means nothing to you. Although I do believe that you were the person that called me out one time for not twirling, which is more or less why I always do it now. Can't remember what game and if I was bad or not then.
Dom wrote:I'm voting Rico for today. I am travelling tomorrow an dmight check in. NYC for the weekend. SEeing Hamilton and Spring Awakening (again).
So envious!! I need to get Hamilton tickets. Did you hear they broke the internet the other day, kind of like Star Wars did when those tickets went on sale? And I'm bummed I didn't get to this production of Spring Awakening. I saw Deaf West Productions do Big River years back and they were amazing--I was hoping to see what they'd do with SA, a show I love. Alas. No time before they close. Have a great trip!!!
LoRab wrote:Black Rock wrote:Ricochet wrote:Matt wrote:
Btw, everyone going after Lorab for her twirl is awkward. Lorab's twirl is fun, IMO, whether she's good or bad. I've never once thought she was good or bad because of it, but it's fun, you meanies!
Good luck making a case on her, then. I'd literally pay money to watch.
She is building the case herself. As far as I'm concerned she is making excuses and avoiding answering anyone's questions or concerns. That sounds like baddie LoRab to me.
Although I enjoyed your twirlaholic funs, LoRab. I'm not impressed that you didn't address anything last night. It's been a long time since I have had such strong baddie vibes from you.
I fell asleep last night. Did I miss questions in my post a little while ago? What haven't I addressed? Seriously, please let me know so I can answer. I answered the posts I saw that had specific things to say about me. I didn't see any other posts that raised anything else. What else can I address?
Your vibes about me are wrong.
linkitis: Fair enough. I was a bit confused that you said I didn't answer anything.
LoRab wrote:Black Rock wrote:Metalmarsh89 wrote:JaggedJimmyJay wrote:AAAAAHHHHH WHOOOOO DEEEEEEEEEY
Now I feel bad for voting you.
Actually no I don't.
I just voted for LoRab... because she is bad. I see you have switched your vote to yourself. I hope in my future reads I see a damn good reason.
No, she is not. If you could make a case on me, so that I can explain my actions and defend myself, please do. If you think you have info on me, it isn't accurate. I'm not bad, and I'd like to be able to defend.
LoRab wrote:Black Rock wrote:I have put my vote on LoRab. Not to sound like a broken record or anything. I thought I might vote for JJJ but I found some of his more recent posts to be compelling and I am less sure he's a baddie. I work tomorrow before and during the deadline so I want to make sure I have a vote in just in case.
You continue to be wrong about me.
The most important thing we need to do with BR is determine how realistic the possibility is that her aggression against LoRab was a continued bussing effort. I think the best way to approach that question is to see how LoRab handled BR's accusations. For the most part it's a lot of "no, you're wrong", which doesn't say much.
However, I did yellow-highlight one bit in the above quotes that I find telling. LoRab asked BR for a substantive case and tried to shake her from any possible "information" she might have. This looks to me like a mafioso struggling to get around the hounding of a non-team mate and displaying frustration/almost desperation at a lack of avenues to defend and maybe escape it. That's a nice look for BR.
Black Rock wrote:Now that I have quoted the post deleted the twirls and previewed it I can be satisfied.
Interesting back and forth between Rico and LoRab.
I haven't read the 11 pages before page 20, and I won't be unless I think I missed something important. Ricos posts don't count.
My opinion is all though Rico has been distracting and posting a lot of crap (all the way up to page 8) I don't find him that suspicious. Would he really want that much attention? I was thinking he had a neutral role, if those exist in this game.
He did have a point about LoRabs original post. Seemed easy and even her Matt points were wishy washy at best. Not the best example of LoRabs mafia play. Is she bad? or just not that into it?
Black Rock wrote:I am going to vote for LoRab for now. Her posts reek of her mafia self. I look forward to seeing what she has to say to Epig.
Black Rock wrote:Sorsha wrote:I read your response LoRab (not quoting because it is so huge) you always have a way of making things seem so rational and I usually can be swayed to see things how you see them. I'm going to stick with my gut for today though and vote for you.
I've not had enough time (and won't before poll closes) to catch up over the past few pages but I'll be able to over the weekend and hopefully have some stronger suspicions then.
votes LoRab
That's how I feel. Her responses are so clear and convincing. I have myself questioning my gut. I have been fooled by this LoRab before. I am leaving my vote where it is for right now while I finish my catch up.
Black Rock wrote:Metalmarsh89 wrote:JaggedJimmyJay wrote:AAAAAHHHHH WHOOOOO DEEEEEEEEEY
Now I feel bad for voting you.
Actually no I don't.
I just voted for LoRab... because she is bad. I see you have switched your vote to yourself. I hope in my future reads I see a damn good reason.
Black Rock wrote:Epignosis wrote:I'm still on Lorab. I said she cracked under pressure. I applied pressure. She disappeared. When she came back, she was sweet as sugar. I think her twirly behind got the jitters when I called her out so early.
*thumbs up*
Black Rock wrote:Ok, I have basically caught up.A quick answer to Juliets and HB.
I did not respond to LoRabs responses to her suspicion because I saw no point. She took her time, made her excuses, and as far as I am concerned, carefully crafted her response so it was 'just perfect'. The fact that she was under suspicion because of her wording means she was careful to try and debunk that theory. LoRab is not a player to be underestimated. She is smart. She is crafty. She is a damn good mafia player. She is also one that is hard for the masses to suspect because of that. Mostly I am running on gut. If I were a baddie trying to take down LoRab for no good reason, I would have dropped it after it didn't work. LoRab is a personal friend of mine and I won't go after her unless she twists my gut (except for the brief period I always thought she was bad). I also have played with her for 7 years and know for a damn fact she is not an easy target to get lynched. This is not baddie BR trying to take out an easy target. This is BR acting on her gut. When I act on my gut I cannot give you the proper reasons, the reasons some of you need to make sense of all. I have not built a case because there will be no good case to build. LoRab was accused early and she will be careful.
Could I be wrong? Damn right I could. I didn't role check her and I can't know with certainty. Am I questioning myself? Yes, because I am starting to wonder is HB has information I do not. If HB does not tell me he knows without a doubt she is civ then I will not trust LoRab this game.
I will go back and address any other concerns juliets and HB have.
Black Rock wrote:Black Rock wrote:Ricochet wrote:Black Rock wrote:I'm so behind. Life kicked my ass yesterday and I just got time to post this today.
I just wanted to say that I didn't miss the vote yesterday, I was unable to vote at all. I will do a big catch up after my three year old goes to bed, he's being a demanding... and is requiring I move away from the computer as I type this. Because he's being rude to mommy I think I will take my time.
Ok, so that's the late sig, Golden and BR being incapacitated so far - I don't remember Boomslang or LoRab having voted on 3.0 though. Is it possible to start correlating who might have wanted one less vote on the tally from these three players? Who do you think w/could have incapacitated you, BR?
I felt like the person who blocked my ability to vote was afraid I was going to vote for LoRab, I'm on the fence if it was a baddie power or a civvie one. I would have likely voted for JJ, but I'm not completely caught up so that may have changed.
So far from page 70-74, I am completely ok with a JJ lynch and would have for sure voted for him because it does look like a push for LoRab.
Not saying I don't suspect LoRab still. They are likely on two different teams.
I'm also ok with a Tranq lynch. I'm not going to give him a pass, by saying that's just Tranq. He's much more devious than that.
Golden, why do you feel so strongly about JJJ?
Black Rock wrote:I have put my vote on LoRab. Not to sound like a broken record or anything. I thought I might vote for JJJ but I found some of his more recent posts to be compelling and I am less sure he's a baddie. I work tomorrow before and during the deadline so I want to make sure I have a vote in just in case.
Obviously BR put extensive effort into pursuing a LoRab lynch and got a very early start. I think almost all of this looks authentic.
Some might be unamused by this WIFOM, but I honestly completely believe BR when she says this.
~~~
BR missed the first JJJ/LoRab poll war, but expressed willingness to lynch both.
She voted for LoRab the second time.
~~~
I feel pretty strongly that Black Rock is not on LoRab's team.
LoRab and Boomslang
LoRab did not mention or engage Boomslang.
Boomslang wrote:Alright, I have to go record some music and must vote. I don't think Rico is mafia, I think Llama is civ, and haven't really considered the Lorab arguments. Therefore, I'm going to leave a protest vote on Mac: as has been noted previously, his playing is not that different from Rico's, but he's being very defensive of it and was blatantly hypocritical when he compared his own baseless accusation to the one MM made about him. *votes Mac*
Linki w/Rico: Tranq should speak up, true facts.
Boomslang wrote:I'm running low on time before class, and I don't think I'll be able to vote after that. Quite disappointed in Drac's lack of posting today. I think the JJJ case is overblown; his effort with the smiley curse alone, when as a baddie he could have safely played it cool, makes me lean civ on him. Lorab's defense seems genuine, while sig is much more flippant. I don't like the games he played with smileys in a recent post, in particular; it's self-conscious, not natural. I'll put my vote *on sig* unless I find time on a class break to read more and change my mind.
Linki w/Golden: Good illustration of the difference between civ read/buddying. Worth keeping in mind, imo.
Boomslang wrote:Ricochet wrote:I did a search of Dom's entire post and have found only a dozen of posts in which the word suspish appears. He himself has used it only once before, in Star Wars.
I now believe Dom is in team with someone who is inadvertedly influencing his word use during their private chatter.
Players who so far who used this word in this game are llama and LoRab.
I... kind of like this theory. It's just crazy enough to make sense, and I know I often find myself using the language of the group I'm talking with. Does this necessarily make him bad, though? I'm not pinged super hard either way. On the civ end, I like his pressure on Tranq and the way he's been skeptical of Mac throughout the game. On the mafia end, I don't like the way he's expressed support for off-wagon candidates and then circled back to the main wagon for all of the lynches thus far; feels just a touch too blendy.
GTH, I guess I'd say bad. The connection of "suspish" with Lorab, combined with his consistent but low levels of aggro toward her, could make the case for mafia teammates.
The first two posts here show Boom acknowledging that people are suspicious of LoRab and explaining why he's voting for someone else. The first one is a rather blatant "I haven't considered the LoRab arguments" and the second is a positive read on her. I won't make significant judgments about this kind of limited content, but I will say the first one doesn't strike me as a conscious effort to ignore the case against a team mate -- it looks like an authentic shrug. The third post here is the most interesting to me, in which he lends some support to Rico's "suspish" theory and implicates Dom and LoRab as possible team mates. I find myself wondering whether any of LoRab's team mates could bring themselves to distancing from their team mates based on
that case -- it's so easy to discard and not take seriously.
~~~
On Day 3.0 Boom missed the vote I believe.
On Day 3.5 he voted for FZ in that 4-way tie madness. I hate this vote, but I'd have to look deeper than the scope of this analysis to understand it better.
Generally it's not enough for any confident read, but I would lean slightly towards a non-team mate relationship.
DharmaHelper and LoRab
LoRab wrote:DharmaHelper wrote:HamburgerBoy wrote:Epignosis wrote:What's with the hesitation on Lorab? I suspect her because of her wording regarding Ricochet, and her response was too measured, too kind. Black Rock claims to read Lorab well and says she's bad (and I believe her, because Lorab's tone is a mystery to me and I've only played a handful of times with her). Is that not a one-two punch? What's the deal? Lynch her already and be done. Then see where we stand.
That's my position. Still.
Even her very first post regarding LoRab is actually one of suspicion built on agreeing with Rico's case on her, and as you have said yourself, Rico was spewing bullshit. BR's next post was basically (if indirectly) agreeing with your case on LoRab. She then said a couple things about wanting to see LoRab address points to her, and then ignored that LoRab actually did later. After that, she then proceeded to agree with Sorsha's post against LoRab. Sorry, not a one-two punch to me, it looks like for the better part of day 1, her only concern was agreeing with people that found LoRab suspicious.
In fact, in light of the Rico-LoRab thing I had overlooked before, what do you think of the possibility that Black Rock was bussing? I don't find BR's case on LoRab to be coming from anywhere genuine.
This ain't the first time ol' HB took up the fight for the Not Too Shabbi Rabbi. Is that offensive to say? LoRab. I'm referring to LoRab. Whom I adore.
For my part, I'm not sold on a case that in the course of Night 0 to Day 3 has not evolved past "I got the heebies"
Not too shabbi rabbi...I kind of like it.
This is LoRab's only acknowledgement of DH's existence. It's a chummy statement that doesn't touch on the content being quoted -- in which DH expressed some light suspicion of Burger for his anti-BR stance (which wasn't necessarily a pro-LoRab stance).
Yay, I get to talk about a Vocaroo post!
The second half of the recording is about her, so skip ahead to about 1:20 if you want. He asserts that on Night 0 he hasn't seen anything from her that he'd characterize as abnormal. He also grants that the people who have expressed concern that her posts looked a little rehearsed (Mac and I primarily) weren't wrong to say so, that he understood our perspective. He didn't think it was inherently suspicious for LoRab to have a few posts that sounded rehearsed though, and even suggested it could be normalcy for him in typed content rather than spoken content.
His read was off obviously, but that's not necessarily a big deal. I would take some issue though with the fact that DH covered such a wide range of the spectrum of the LoRab conversation in this recording without really disagreeing with anyone. He agreed with those suspecting her that her posts looked rehearsed, or that they
could look reheared. He stood in LoRab's corner though too by maintaining a non-suspicious perspective of her in spite of that.
DharmaHelper wrote:Let me see if I can cover what I said with any level of efficacy.
1. I find the discussion around RadicalFuzz more suspicious than RadicalFuzz. Seems like an easy place to start a train and place a copout Day 0 vote.
2. I don't think LoRab is suspicious, and I don't think the argument that her posts are "careful/crafted" holds up. I can see the thought process behind it, I just don't think it is solid.
3. I questioned Golden at one point regarding why he would trust Mac's gut if he finds Mac to be suspicious.
4. I slammed Rico some more regarding his rainbow list, and I posited to Golden that the purpose of the list and Rico's general behavior was in an attempt to look civvier than he is and to hide behind humor, basically.
DharmaHelper wrote:HamburgerBoy wrote:Epignosis wrote:What's with the hesitation on Lorab? I suspect her because of her wording regarding Ricochet, and her response was too measured, too kind. Black Rock claims to read Lorab well and says she's bad (and I believe her, because Lorab's tone is a mystery to me and I've only played a handful of times with her). Is that not a one-two punch? What's the deal? Lynch her already and be done. Then see where we stand.
That's my position. Still.
Even her very first post regarding LoRab is actually one of suspicion built on agreeing with Rico's case on her, and as you have said yourself, Rico was spewing bullshit. BR's next post was basically (if indirectly) agreeing with your case on LoRab. She then said a couple things about wanting to see LoRab address points to her, and then ignored that LoRab actually did later. After that, she then proceeded to agree with Sorsha's post against LoRab. Sorry, not a one-two punch to me, it looks like for the better part of day 1, her only concern was agreeing with people that found LoRab suspicious.
In fact, in light of the Rico-LoRab thing I had overlooked before, what do you think of the possibility that Black Rock was bussing? I don't find BR's case on LoRab to be coming from anywhere genuine.
This ain't the first time ol' HB took up the fight for the Not Too Shabbi Rabbi. Is that offensive to say? LoRab. I'm referring to LoRab. Whom I adore.
For my part, I'm not sold on a case that in the course of Night 0 to Day 3 has not evolved past "I got the heebies"
DharmaHelper wrote:Black Rock wrote:Ok, I have basically caught up.A quick answer to Juliets and HB.
I did not respond to LoRabs responses to her suspicion because I saw no point. She took her time, made her excuses, and as far as I am concerned, carefully crafted her response so it was 'just perfect'. The fact that she was under suspicion because of her wording means she was careful to try and debunk that theory. LoRab is not a player to be underestimated. She is smart. She is crafty. She is a damn good mafia player. She is also one that is hard for the masses to suspect because of that. Mostly I am running on gut. If I were a baddie trying to take down LoRab for no good reason, I would have dropped it after it didn't work. LoRab is a personal friend of mine and I won't go after her unless she twists my gut (except for the brief period I always thought she was bad). I also have played with her for 7 years and know for a damn fact she is not an easy target to get lynched. This is not baddie BR trying to take out an easy target. This is BR acting on her gut. When I act on my gut I cannot give you the proper reasons, the reasons some of you need to make sense of all. I have not built a case because there will be no good case to build. LoRab was accused early and she will be careful.
Could I be wrong? Damn right I could. I didn't role check her and I can't know with certainty. Am I questioning myself? Yes, because I am starting to wonder is HB has information I do not. If HB does not tell me he knows without a doubt she is civ then I will not trust LoRab this game.
I will go back and address any other concerns juliets and HB have.
Still catching up on last night, but I got to this post and felt the need to address it, because it set off several red flags.
1.
Refusing to engage the person you suspect in discourse regarding those suspicions is pingy as Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck. The reasoning you give here also doesn't make sense to me. You say her response was measured and careful in order to debunk the theory that she was being too measured and careful? Dunno, that doesn't click with me. I'm wary in general of anyone who outright refuses to back up their suspicions of someone. That tells me you know you're standing on thin ice and would rather ignore the person you suspect (in this case LoRab), than have your suspicion debunked. If a suspicion cannot stand up to scrutiny, it is either false in nature or faulty in nature.
2.
This is fear mongering to me. You're not arguing the facts of the case, you're propping LoRab up as this "big scary boogie woman" as justification for why you refused to engage. Using a player's skill at the game as a reason to A) Want to lynch them and B) Ignore the holes in your suspicion does not sit well with me.
3. Explicit WIFOM. And especially faulty WIFOM as well.
4.
I find this particularly amusing. There won't ever be a good case to build on LoRab ever in the whole game? That's just patently false. Anyone can build a "good case" on anyone given enough time and content and effort. But you don't want to put that effort forward because why? Because you know that if you do, your "gut read" starts to turn into something entirely different?
Looking at this post, I'm seeing a majority of emotional appeals rather than factual statements and evidence. That tells me that you have no evidence, and indeed no desire to acquire any such evidence. It comes down to you just wanting to lynch LoRab because she's a "good player", which is a motivation I'd associate with baddies.
DharmaHelper wrote:Matt wrote:Mac, no, I'm not trying to create conflict. I have reason to believe Epig is a big bad and I wanted your thoughts on him. Which I'm not sure I even got, you pretty much just kept turning it back on me, I see. Just to be clear, though, you no longer suspect Lorab?
Llama - Thanks.
FZ - I was immediately pinged by you when you said that you had never played a game with bad sig. You have, though, in Dune. I suppose we could chalk that up to plain forgetfulness regardless of affiliation, I dunno. Also, in one reply to Rico, you say something to him like "Way to twist my words" or something, which I thought was funny because Rico is civ so you think Rico is twisting your words? Then, a few posts later, you comment that there is no reason for you to guess about Rico because you know his affiliation...makes me feel that at some point between those two posts, your potential teamies reminded you that Rico is a civvie and therefore accusing him of twisting your words ain't cool.
DH - If you think Black Rock is fibbing about Lorab, does that mean you also think Epig and others are BSing their cases on Lorab? Or is it just BR?
How would that make sense? Black Rock's suspicion of LoRab to me looks disingenuous, but that has no bearing one way or the other on Epi or anyone else. My comment on Epi's side of things was that I don't hold much stock in a case that hasn't evolved in 3+ days of discussion beyond what I don't see as a smoking gun. I don't recall "anyone else" having thoughts drastically different from Epi or BR in the case of LoRab.
If I got into all the problems I see with Epi's play we'd have another Mac/Rico/Zebra situation, or more accurately, another DH/Epi situation of taking up the thread for no good reason.
DharmaHelper wrote:FZ. wrote:This. DH's colour posts really bug me. Not because of the colouring. Because I find myself thinking his attempts feel blown up to seem like he's so engaged in scum hunting. And I find myself disagreeing with his reasons for suspecting people. For example, if someone can't back up their suspicion with a great "case" like people expect, it doesn't make them bad. If anything, when I'm bad, I try to really back up my suspicions as much as I can. Just like he's doing here. It's so easy to find these easy reasons to suspect people. By easy I mean, not doing what is expected by the book (like backing up suspicion).
1. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since you haven't read the rest of the thread apparently. I am not "attempting to seem like I'm scum hunting." I'd like to know what gave you that vibe. I try in every game I play to be verbose and thorough in who I suspect.
2. If we disagree, we disagree.
3. Let me be absolutely clear. not being able to back up your suspicions and not being willing to back up your suspicions are two different things. Building and presenting a poor case does not make a person bad, I agree. What I found suspicious was not that BR built and presented a poor case though. What I said was that BR did not build a case, she did not engage LoRab, and she did not make an effort to pursue her suspicion of LoRab. In my view, this means that she knew that if she did, the case would fall apart and not be as strong as what she'd presented. Two different things.
DharmaHelper wrote:FZ. wrote:DH, to spare us all another long post quote, I'm answering without it.
It's not that I don't think you're not attempting, I'm just not sure I buy the sincerity of your suspicions. Yeah it could just be disagreeing I guess, but I'm not sold on it yet. You seem like a logic person and the way you play as a civ, from what I've seen, is something I find easy to relate. The fact that I find myself disagreeing with you so much bothers me.
I get how that's different, but in what way did she not pursue her suspicion? She voted for her twice. I perceived it as a gut feeling more than a solid reason, thus her answer that she can't really build a case. Again, I can only judge by how I play when I think of what a baddie would do (unless I know that person's bad game really well), but if I were a baddie, I would try to build the case, just so I look like I can back up my votes and not look bad.
Uhm, she literally said "I won't bother to respond to LoRab's defense because it's too perfect."
DharmaHelper wrote:Golden wrote:DharmaHelper wrote:What kind of fuckboy wagon is this?
Which one?
Because honestly, I'd agree with you that the JJ wagon is.
Bruh if you can't look at these LoRab votes and see some kind of fuckery, I can't help you.
DharmaHelper wrote:@FZ Instead of pissing down my back why don't you actually address my suspicion?
1. Why did you actively participate in the lynching of someone you had come around to believing to be genuine? Why not place your vote on a third party that you suspected?
2. Why did you immediately point the finger at JJJ voters rather than LoRab voters? What do you think of the LoRab train in general? Do you think Tranq's vote or Motel Room's vote look civ motivated?
The first post shows DH reasserting the bit I mentioned above from the Vocaroo post. This time it should be noted that he's clearer about disagreeing with Mac and I about LoRab's posts being rehearsed even though he understands the thought process. Otherwise the remaining content leaves us a ton of opportunity (and challenge) in reading DH's motivations. The color-heavy discussions he has around BR's suspicion of LoRab and FZ's suspicion of him
for that are very substantive. While it's obviously not the best look for DH to work so hard to shoot down a BR gut read that has proven to be rock solid, it must be acknowledged that the points he made don't appear manipulative or fake. I can understand a civilian having the mindset that he is espousing in this many-colored post.
I'm curious what DH thinks of BR now in light of LoRab's baddie flip. Please talk about that if you haven't already, DH.
Then there's also the end of Day 3.0 madness in which DH appeared in the thread, observed the quick wagon mounting on LoRab, and then slammed on the brakes before leading people back onto my wagon. I've asserted that his behavior in this stretch appeared disingenuous to me, because it required him to believe things that I think would indicate he did very little critical thinking (that a quick wagon is inherently a problem, that I am mafia and my entire team tried to save me all at once). I maintain that this is a bad look. It might be a matter of me disagreeing severely with DH's entire perspective of what a townie in a Mafia game is supposed to be doing (which would also stem from his view on rainbows which I think is completely wrong). This is where I feel I have to defer to people who know him better to help me get a grip on what he's done.
General questions to all non-DharmaHelper players who know him well -- is it typical of him to resist end of day bandwagon shifts as a civilian? Is it typical of him as a civilian to think an entire mafia team would expose themselves in a pie-eyed stupid strategic move? Help me out here.
~~~
DH voted for me on Days 3.0 and 3.5.
~~~
Overall there's a lot to think about. I agree with HamburgerBoy that it's hard to say his defenses of LoRab against BR's suspicions looks disingenuous. That appears sincere to me. But his conduct at the end of the Day 3.0 lynch looks highly insincere to me. I'll wait for feedback.