The Syndicate

c4 and Wilgy

From Wilgy

Spoiler: show

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:27 pm
c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:22 pm [VOTE: NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME] aubergine
Speaking of which.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:27 pm
c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:31 pm I wanna stop talking about the hammer thing
no

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:31 pm Simply this:
if MR flips RED, I don't think these are wolves
c4e5g3d5, Alison, MacDougall, NotAnAxehole

I think there's a likely chance MR is red because of them not being hammered for what, a 10-12 hour period of floating 4?

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:01 pm
c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:23 pm I don't really care about Wilgy's hammer read, villagers have wack reads

I do care that Wilgy has 0 reads that don't involve the word "hammer"
That's just incorrect. I TR Hally, NAA and Marmot.

NAA I even vocalized.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 4:49 pm
Hally wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:16 pm
c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:12 pm
Master Radishes wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:59 pm
Hally wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:58 pm jay, why is radishes the towniest town to ever town?
I bet I can answer this and if Jay explains what's in my head I'll return the lock town read on him.
Radish hypes up the whole did he think what I thought he thought thing, making it sound like there's a high bar for Jay to clear here

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:59 pm
Hally wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:58 pm jay, why is radishes the towniest town to ever town?
his reception of Nanook doing the "Jay and Mac are outed" thing and conversion of that into "Nanook and Mac are outed" looked very real to me, even if he didn't intend for it to be taken as incredibly serious. The brain that happened in MR's brain to facilitate that read is something I don't figure mafia are braining on Page 1
All Jay has to offer is describing what Radish did and saying "this feels like town"

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 7:00 pm Yep Jay town.
And that's enough for Radish apparently

Bit of a letdown
and you’re also town
Hally explain this one to me plz.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:42 pm
c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:02 pm Gut is saying Dizzy's Wilgy read is towny
Same, and while I dislike the reason why (as I now know of a weak spot in my scum game), I agree that it is valid.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:47 pm Read the past few pages.

I think my PoE at this moment is Mac, Radishes, Alison.

Tinfoil C4. I can't express why.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:56 am
Hally wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:32 am the thing is i can’t tell if he’s gimmicking here? his tone is weird but not in an obviously gimmicky way
I don't have the capacity for gimmicks rn. Getting married in a week.

My tone is probably off because I didn't read the first 10 pages and I'm struggling to really read anyone as scum. With the exception of c4, and I don't even get that one.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:02 am I haven't played with c4 before.

And idk. They seem like they are quite alright with many a wagon. They were on MR, Nook and Alison. They are cool with anyone going over and persistently keeps people at 4. I think they are the only one who's been on all 3 potential yeets.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:18 am
Hally wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:04 am
DrWilgy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:02 am I haven't played with c4 before.

And idk. They seem like they are quite alright with many a wagon. They were on MR, Nook and Alison. They are cool with anyone going over and persistently keeps people at 4. I think they are the only one who's been on all 3 potential yeets.
c4 never voted alison

he actually was the only one defending her for most pf the day
Holy shit.

My b. I feel like I jumped timelines as I swore I saw c4's name there.

From c4

Spoiler: show

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:23 pm I don't really care about Wilgy's hammer read, villagers have wack reads

I do care that Wilgy has 0 reads that don't involve the word "hammer"

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:07 pm
DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:01 pm
c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:23 pm I don't really care about Wilgy's hammer read, villagers have wack reads

I do care that Wilgy has 0 reads that don't involve the word "hammer"
That's just incorrect. I TR Hally, NAA and Marmot.

NAA I even vocalized.
Oh my god.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:18 pm
c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:07 pm
DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:01 pm
c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:23 pm I don't really care about Wilgy's hammer read, villagers have wack reads

I do care that Wilgy has 0 reads that don't involve the word "hammer"
That's just incorrect. I TR Hally, NAA and Marmot.

NAA I even vocalized.
Oh my god.
Okay, so it turns out that this does in fact imply Wilgy hasn't said anything about his Hally and Marmot reads
And in this case "vocalized" means he said "I think Axe is town because he townread me"

This is pretty dumb

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:50 pm
DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:30 pm Thinking about Hammering Alison.
You can wait on your decision until tomorrow because if she's town wolves will hammer her by then anyway

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:33 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:04 am
DrWilgy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 1:02 am I haven't played with c4 before.

And idk. They seem like they are quite alright with many a wagon. They were on MR, Nook and Alison. They are cool with anyone going over and persistently keeps people at 4. I think they are the only one who's been on all 3 potential yeets.
That's worth talking about, @c4e5g3d5. I think I like the observation for Wilgy anyway if it's accurate. I don't remember the wagons clearly.
I didn't vote Alison but I eventually gave vocal support so close enough

I don't think any of the three pushes besides Nook support Wilgy's point in context tho lol, and certainly not in terms of like, holding the rest of the list to the same standards

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:53 pm Alison Nook Mac Axe Wilgy

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 6:20 pm It doesn't seem as pressing to say this anymore, but Wilgy gets a break IMO.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:07 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:02 pm
c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:00 pm
Hally wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:58 pm c4’s entrance feels kinda underwhelming, i agree
Same
How do the Day 1 and Night 1 kills impact your broader view of the game?
I don't usually do much with legacy but this looks like the kind of list where I should do something with legacy
Axe and Wilgy looking like distractions was the big takeaway

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:12 pm
Hally wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:02 pm
c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:00 pm
Hally wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:58 pm c4’s entrance feels kinda underwhelming, i agree
Same
who are the wolves?
Nook is wolfy and I haven't felt a need to persuade anyone

"Mac needs to step it up" has been hammered into all of us enough
Gut says he's been playing in a generally unaligned way but I don't normally need my gut with Mac

I have reasons to like all of Axe/Dizzy/Radish/Wilgy and just need some of them to be stronger ffs

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:23 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:16 pm
c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:12 pm
Hally wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:02 pm
c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:00 pm
Hally wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:58 pm c4’s entrance feels kinda underwhelming, i agree
Same
who are the wolves?
Nook is wolfy and I haven't felt a need to persuade anyone

"Mac needs to step it up" has been hammered into all of us enough
Gut says he's been playing in a generally unaligned way but I don't normally need my gut with Mac

I have reasons to like all of Axe/Dizzy/Radish/Wilgy and just need some of them to be stronger ffs
what are those reasons?
Axe has a towny self-absorption
Dizzy is being significantly more effective and less agenda'd than GoC
Radish's takes have felt like they came without obligation
Wilgy made catches I didn't expect him to when I didn't expect him to

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:58 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:52 am @c4e5g3d5 who are your suspects other than Nanook?
My Achilles heel

I have non-PoE reasons to think Mac and Wilgy are wolves
I do not think Mac and Wilgy are Wolves
That's about all I can give you rn

Conclusion

I don't think they're both mafia. The interaction strikes me as uncoordinated. I highlighted the parts that sell me on that. I particularly doubt that mafia Wilgy decides to adopt only one suspect, his only teammate, and portray that suspicion as a giant shrug.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 10:08 pm @JaggedJimmyJay when you did the last chart do you remember particular instances of others treating Radish in an unaligned way that I should skip to

I do have some in mind, but I would vastly prefer you pursue this task free of any biases I might introduce. Afterword I may share.

Thanks Hally

I hate losing even more than I hate playing. I will blowing the thread up soon.

@c4e5g3d5 if you could review each of the MR interactions that’d be spectacular.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:32 pm I can help with the project, but like, chances are the most you get out of me is I point out two or three things from the sidelines that I think are interesting
Like my normal play ig

I need 2-way interactions for every living pair. Is there any one player on this list that you think you read particularly well?

Hally wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:36 pm still don’t think c4 is a wolf

What gives you the most confidence, if you could summarize quickly?

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:30 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:16 pm GTH reads on Nanook right now go go go
w

What if I were to tell you that in the last hour or so my reads on you and Nanook have inverted?

cool cool cool

Who wants to help me with a Super Special Interactions Project?

Gonna require explaining things so

GTH reads on Nanook right now go go go

I am confused by this game.

We mischop now, and we [probably] go to Limlo in our current state of cluelessness.

Level heads my friends, I beg

am i going to have to do an interactive chart for the whole damned game

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:23 pm Nook popping in to push back on the two most recent out of however many points against him, and doing it exclusively with factual information, while trying to project not caring, is baaaaaaad

Why is this baaaaaaad

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:16 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:11 pm @NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME would you say it is typical for NAA to suspect you when you are town and/or when you feel that you are playing within your town meta?
Yeah I think so

Although he should actually have me town here if he looks at my entrance, but

It's not really outing for him to incorrectly push me afaik

Would appreciate if you could say something about the orange bit, @NotAnAxehole

Something that occurs to me about the Marmot kill. Some folks suggested it might have been a doctor dodge, but I kind of didn't feel that since Marmot is a very legitimate target on his own power. However, I could see mafia being more motivated by a watcher dodge, since that is easily the strongest role in the matrix. Only relevant if it applies to this game, and might not mean anything. Marmot's legacy is something I keep bumping my head against though. Mac and NAA were his top suspects among the living (Nanook and Wilgy secondary).

@NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME would you say it is typical for NAA to suspect you when you are town and/or when you feel that you are playing within your town meta?

To anyone who cares to answer:

Who's the most likely player to flip mafia that is not contained in the following set: [Nanook, MR, Wilgy]?

This has definitely been an irritating Day 2, and it feels like the solving is not progressing (as a group, I mean, including myself). Perhaps that's just a credit to the two mafia.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:05 pm Lmk if I need to bury Nook but I don't think I do

I think you should.

Folks who have suspicions of c4, I'm open to hearing about those more.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:51 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:31 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:29 pm 145 posts LiTeRaLlY uNrEaDaBlE
imagine NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME implying post count and readability have any connection
Imagine saying there's nothing in 145 posts to read

Like fuck, if you can't read me that's fine, but just say that, don't pretend ive done nothing lol

I didn't say you've done nothing.

@NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME, NAA has made 99 posts. Must be something readable in there, eh?

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:29 pm 145 posts LiTeRaLlY uNrEaDaBlE

imagine NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME implying post count and readability have any connection

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:24 pm "He doesn't care" and "he seems flat" are just awful ways to read me

how about:

you barely have reads and are trying your best to blend

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:19 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:11 pm If the day ended in five seconds and I had a free hammer, it'd go on Nanook. He's been near or in the poll lead all day and is just existing. He doesn't have to "care" in the conventional sense, but in his town body I'd at least anticipate snark or sarcasm or even serious counter-efforts.
I don't care what you'd expect lol

I'm sure you don't. I don't whether or not you care.

I'm playing in a subdued version of my 2015ish rage meta. Nobody recognizes it anymore I guess.

Rest assured though there was a time when I didn't write every post I make like a Nice Calm Boy. I might need to play with more animation like this if I am going to have fun (jury is still out, but I'm trying).

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:11 pm MR is quite towny here actually.

I'm a little bit tired of Jimmay saying "Do stuff, solve the game, I can only read you by that", cause I don't really think that's true.
I had half the thought that I've only really seen Jimmay solve patiently with PoE and wanting to hear people out even if he suspects them, so this smack smack bang is a change of pace. This is not really an accusation, but

I can understand it being annoying, but let me clarify:

Players don't have to "do things, solve the game" to be readable to me. What I am saying is that when I have suspicions, constant self-defense is the absolute least effective manner of changing my mind. I just don't work that way. I think self-defense even as a construct is from the starting point ">rand mafia", even if everyone does it sometimes. The surest means of moving my vote is helping me figure out someone else that is a better vote.

If the day ended in five seconds and I had a free hammer, it'd go on Nanook. He's been near or in the poll lead all day and is just existing. He doesn't have to "care" in the conventional sense, but in his town body I'd at least anticipate snark or sarcasm or even serious counter-efforts.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:06 pm I don't care what you need. I'm making my own way through this game based on my own personal situation.

It's important for me to be in sync with the flow of the thread and due to irl circumstances I haven't been. Sometimes conversation helps me, regardless of the (game-related) topic.

That's fine. You're going to do your thing. I'm just saying that the current state of our dialogue is probably not going to change my mind.

I am bothered that Nanook's only accusation of Day 2 so far has been a single vote for c4 that he blamed on IAWY. At least I don't remember any other accusations.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:01 pm You seem intent on finding reasons to keep me in your line of fire, but I'm still not finding it particularly scummy, so I guess that's something.

It's unlikely to change if your post history continues to be defined by people are suspicious of me. I need some offense.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 6:45 pm Anyway I just mainly like people talking about me.

If you want to know why I'm not a wolf here it's (a) I've not tried harder to (fake) solve and (b) my general comfort level talking directly to people (instead of around/about them) and (c) I've not made a TMI slip (which I do at least once per wolf rand).

I would protest B). I have employed the "third-person point of view" tell myself on occasion before, and it's something I have noticed in your game here -- particularly from players that suspect you.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:47 pm Why am I and Dizzy in a dichotomy? That was an Alison thing and now it's an NAA thing and I don't know why.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 2:15 pm So I can have some light reading on my bus ride home, why was NAA's EoD villagery?

I dont even know what to feel about him, I just don't really get why he's now a town read.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Sun Feb 27, 2022 6:56 pm I've never, in admittedly more limited than you might expect experience, seen Jay treat someone the way he's treating Mac now. I find it interesting and probably alignment indicative.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 5:35 am Alison read up and wrote a bunch of words on it and came out with almost exactly the same view, i.e. the same inner PoE with one minor addition.

If she's town she's reading this game kinda badly.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:49 pm I am unconvinced that Alison is this convinced about me.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 1:58 am Alison's reasoning for voting me is strikingly poor for her. I want to call it wolfy but I expect better fake nudges from her when she's wolfing. I'm going to quietly scumread her for the rest of D1 but do nothing about it.

I would argue that you talked about/around Alison considerably more than you talked to Alison. If you respond to this post please don't quote the whole thing.

@Master Radishes only real way forward for my read on you to change for the better is to know who is mafia instead of you.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 6:35 pm Would prooobably be harmless but better safe than sorry

It'll be later later

People think you 1610'd, so you might want to deal with that.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 6:32 pm Jay, what do you expect when you look for scum Radish?

(I promise not to be offended by anything you say.)

I don't know, I haven't seen much if any of scum Radish. My best guess would be that you'd adopt a more formulaic or generic approach to hunting (e.g. trying to squeeze explanations out of people that don't give them because townies give explanations), and perhaps your Day 1 would be a little more involved.

Hally wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 6:27 pm jay, how confident are you that radishes is a hit?

Not super. I might be around 50/50, which would at least be ">rand" for the lingo people. The best thing going for him right now, in my view, is that the most probable team on the board is Nanook/Wilgy.

Having trouble seeing a team outside MR/Nanook/Wilgy.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:27 pm Like I mostly am trying to get a read on NAA in return by understanding him. I don't intend to defend myself point by point or anything.

But like... Jay. Wtf.

I’m also skeptical that you’re wtfing me before determining why I have asked my question.

Probing NAA for explanations makes about as much sense as pushing Radishes to make relevant posts on Day 1.

It has the appearance of a genuine motion, but it has very little promise given the player being probed.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:25 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:18 pm
Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:04 pm
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:45 pm
Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:14 pm And what's your reasoning for me being scummy?
You should have argued with the ghost before she became a ghost.
Alison had a case. A poor one, but a case.

What's yours?
Do you believe this is going to help?
Do I...believe having someone explain why they scumread another player is going to help?

Yes. Yes I do.

I don’t believe you. You’re basically demanding that a known non-explainer do a bunch of explaining when he has already made his stance clear.

Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 5:04 pm
NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:45 pm
Master Radishes wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:14 pm And what's your reasoning for me being scummy?
You should have argued with the ghost before she became a ghost.
Alison had a case. A poor one, but a case.

What's yours?

Do you believe this is going to help?

@DrWilgy I would love to be thoroughly licked by your unique intuitions.

Hally wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:06 pm nook citing the vibe tell may be the villageriest thing he’s done this game, unironically

I find it suspicious. Nanook is not a player I expect to see reference anyone else's methods to justify his own reads, save maybe a very small 451 shortlist. Nanook gets reads the Nanook way, not the IAWY way.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:42 pm There's a hard difference check between Nanook and Mac.

It's an interesting thought, and I hadn't construed things in that way. But it is true that their interaction is not what I am used to seeing from Nanook and Mac.

Hally wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:34 pm honestly though i wouldn’t even be that surprised if dizzy is a wolf but it’s kinda impossible to get there when half the game is not really playing so i feel like i almost have to trust him

Yep. That's where I end up removing Dizzy and NAA, but with a similar feeling of

Hally wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:23 pm weird game honestly

Agreed.

If a broader consensus leaves us with this suspect pool:

DrWilgy
Dyslexicon
Master Radishes
Nanook
NAA

Who are the first two you (anyone reading) remove from consideration?

Hally (400)

To me, this feels like a game where we probably shouldn't be relying mostly upon the kinds reads that technically apply to anyone -- does this person look classically town to me, and how much have they done? Otherwise very few living players meet the town standard and the game is left to chance (we'd have to choose correctly among a big pile of suspects). We're in kind of a shitty spot where it feels necessary to rely on gut judgments, even those we struggle to describe, as a primary tool. That's where I've been today with my NAA town read. I tried to put myself there with Wilgy but couldn't do it. I think I can get there with Dizzy. I'm not there with MR. I'm not there with Nanook. I'm there with Mac. I'm there with c4. I'm there with Hally.

I could be wrong about NAA. I cannot possibly claim to be confident. But I have felt the feel for him when it was most critical to feel the feel.

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