The Syndicate

Weeeeeerd. *brofist*

It'd be amusing to see the dead chat.

I was so mad when I drew mafia in my Vompatti game. I really intended to do that the entire game and only stopped because I was bad and wanted to support my teammates better.

I was so ready to phone it in if I'd been a civilian.

Long Con wrote:
nutella wrote:I didn't really follow this game at all after I got lynched but wow. JJJ and Dizzy can be baddies?? That's possible??

Congrats guys.
It was a good game. FZ pulled off a masterfully-timed fake cop claim and got me, the cop, lynched. Makes me want to play another game just like this, armed with the experience of this fakeclaim. Completely blindsided me!

I think this is the most balanced setup I've seen. Having played it 4 times now, it really is perfect for equalizing the matchup. Its weakness is that it is so cop-focused that the entire game revolves around that player. Being the cop in this setup is probably more pressure than being mafia.

I've never been the cop though. Vanilla town twice and mafia twice.

A few thoughts:

~ Lynching nutella first was big. She has learned to clear herself effectively when civilian and to prevent that was significant.

~ The MP kill was unorthodox in that it wasn't cop-centric. It's almost the exact same kill my team made in the champs finale two years ago in this setup. MP was the motivational heart of the civilian faction and we ripped it out. The thread stagnated thereafter, to our gain.

~ The Luke kill was a mistake, and Dizzy and I get most of the blame for that. FZ wanted Epi. Luke was our #1 cop and Long Con was #2.

~ The fake cop claim was an idea all three of us developed at all times until it was needed. When the time came, FZ's execution was excellent.

~ When Golden subbed in, I said "aw SHIT" to my laptop screen. I sensed an unspoken mutual distrust between us, like a strategic shadow war waiting to reveal itself. I never believed he trusted me. Had I gone to a final three he'd have been dead, which is the ultimate nod of respect. I was literally a mafioso tinfoiling on a civilian.

~ Dizzy did an awesome job putting effortful content into the thread under pressure. Both of my teammates were fantastic in what I consider my core baddie belief: being suspected means nothing. Who gives a crap. Just get to the next day.

~ I didn't want to kill Epi. He gets killed too damned much. The cop ID sealed it though.

~ This was extremely close to going the other way. My hammer vote on INH processed simultaneous to the poll ending. We'd have been dead to rights.

Again, great game everyone.

People at the airport are looking at me weird as I celebrate.

Good game everyone. At no point did I ever feel like we were truly "winning". It was a stressor. Thanks for hosting Floyd, you did a great job!

I'll have more to say later. I really do need to conserve phone charge.

insertnamehere wrote:WAS JAY EVER EVEN ON A PLANE

30 minute delay.

I have to maintain phone charge so I can't stay here. I endorse a Dizzy lynch.

Dizzy's recent responses to criticism have had a trend of reflecting that criticism with implied critical language rather than straightforward language. I'm not a fan.

INH has given some manner of an analytic effort under pressure which I think bears more civilian value by comparison.

I am inclined to leave my vote where it is.

I'm in airport hell and my plane will be boarding shortly. I have to make my final decision quickly.

It'll be important for the civilians to vote as a group to minimize any chance of opportunistic mafia voting in the end. I won't be here at EOD so my final decision is going to have to come earlier. Marmot, sell me on an INH vote instead.

Voting Dizzy.

lol I forgot my Taco Bell sauces.

You get the point, man.

I'm taking a look at the possible dynamics, similar to the method Golden discussed up there. I'll use Taco Bell sauces to indicate my feelings.

Dizzy/Elohden -- Eloh didn't mention Dizzy, and Dizzy didn't say much about Eloh. On Day 2 Dizzy included Eloh in the bad side of their POE list. That's really it between those two. The rest comes after Golden joined the game, in an interaction which is largely characterized by a questioning Golden and an answering Dizzy. It's one-sided in that way, which is similar to my own dialogue with Dizzy in recent memory. I don't know that most distancing I encounter takes on that appearance. This is plausible but not inspiring.

Dizzy/Marmot -- Their earliest interaction was pretty chummy with the cat gifs and the raisins. The most pressing moment is probably that coming after the Luke kill, when Marmot voiced suspicion of Dizzy as a result of that kill. In the event that they're teammates, Marmot being the one to push that implication first would be a hard distancing move. The necessity of such a thing would be questionable, since I think Dizzy was held in relatively high regard by a number of players before that kill. It'd represent Marmot getting out in front of the backlash, but I am not sure that's as likely as Marmot simply making an observation and pursuing it genuinely -- something not indicative of a teammate relationship.

Dizzy/INH -- INH had Dizzy as a town read on Day 2. There isn't content preceding that read to foretell it or to suggest a progression or development. He supported Dizzy's proposed mafia team of Marmot and I on Day 4. Dizzy made note of INH's absence a few times on Day 1, at one time they called him a neutral read that they forgot was playing. On Night 1 they voiced their retrospective disinterest in an INH lynch because of his inactivity. On Day 2 Dizzy placed INH on the green side of the POE. When Golden requested a team dynamic on Night 4, Dizzy started with Marmot/JJJ and switched to Marmot/INH. That's rather sloppy if they're teammates. Generally I do think this interaction is mafia-compatible. They were mutually supportive without visibly progressed reads after the first day.

Elohden/Marmot -- Eloh didn't mention Marmot. Marmot dropped a flier vote on her on Day 1, though it was in OT color so I don't know what that was. He chose INH over Eloh as a lurker deserving a vote on Day 1. Golden has discussed Marmot as a candidate on a few occasions without stating specifics yet. Marmot has pressed Golden a little bit on his stance on INH. The content is limited here. I'd call it a plausible dynamic.

Elohden/INH -- Elohcin showed up late on Day 1 and placed a self-preservation vote on INH. The occurrence looks organic to me. I don't struggle to envision Eloh logging in, seeing herself with a few votes, and then plopping a vote down on a counterwagon without looking over whatever discussion is happening or has happened. In that regard I think that's a decent indicator that these two can be dissociated; such a careless self-preservation vote is less likely to appear among teammates. If I recall correctly there were other counterwagons available too for nutella and FZ. INH placed her in the center of his Day 2 rainbow. Golden has voiced suspicion of INH as a pair with Dizzy. That Eloh vote is the most telling to me.

Marmot/INH -- Marmot spoke on Day 1 of our recent trend around here of successful lynches of low posters, and he focused the crosshairs on INH for that starting mid-late Day 1. He has carried that suspicion through the game to this point, taking issue with INH's rainbow on Day 2 and associating him with me, and that was his Day 3 vote prior to FZ's claim. INH called Marmot one of his top two mafia reads with FZ, and if all three are bad then that is very hard distancing. I'm not sure that's likely. He agreed with Dizzy's suggestion of a Marmot/JJJ mafia team. They've been at each other's throats for a while. I lean away from this being a teammate relationship.

Put them all together, and Dizzy emerges as the one with the interactions that look most compatible. I see at least one possibility for the other three which is plausible. Marmot probably emerges looking the best, because the most believable interaction I see for him happens to be with Elohden -- a dynamic pairing the two players I dissociated most from FZ. INH looks compatible with Dizzy, otherwise I don't see as much. Golden has a couple plausible dynamics; neither one is particularly moving though.

Same question for you, Marmot. I know of your INH suspicion, what do you think of the others right now?

Dyslexicon wrote:Alright, I'm going out tonight, so I won't really have the time to be around before tomorrow, but I do have time tomorrow. Would be cool if all considering voting me writes out why and what they think I'm not addressing to their satisfaction. I really want to prove that I'm town to whoever else of you that are.

I am not clear on what your reads are right now. What are your reads?

Golden wrote:Read back and consider a marmot/dizzy team and see what you think.

Golden, can you expand on this dynamic you presented to INH and clarify your own present position?

Dyslexicon wrote:Also, I voted for FZ the whole fucking time EoD. I only voted JJJ when LC asked me to. Was this unclear somehow? I get that you are confirmed town, but god damn.

Dizzy, what inspired the frustration you were displaying here? Given that you knew Epi was confirmed, you had no reason to distrust his motives when he was questioning you.

insertnamehere wrote:
Dyslexicon wrote:
Golden wrote:Dizzy, gun to head, who is the baddie team?
Marmot and JJJ.
Gun to head. BUT I haven't done the work and looked through the FZ-stuff.
This'd be my GTH baddie team too. Plus FZ of course.

INH, what leads you to suspect the remaining mafia team you have indicated here: Marmot and I?

This day phase might be a shit sandwich for me. I have some time tonight and maybe tomorrow afternoon. Tomorrow night I'll be away though, and I'll be on a plane scheduled to depart the gate at almost exactly the deadline of this lynch on Sunday. This might be my busiest week or two until autumn when I start PhD hell.

It's important that we field as thorough a conversation as we can today as a group. It's LyLo, meaning we cannot afford to have a single civilian final vote on another civilian. Let's try to give ourselves the best chance we can here. I understand that folks are busy, so am I.

Marmot wrote:Not sure if I did, but the reason I didn't suspect FZ Day 1 is because I liked her responses to the pressure she received. I remember she compared herself to nutella at one point, saying that they're being suspected for similar reasons. I looked back through their posts at the time, and determined FZ looked a lot better than nutella did. I think that comparison was a strong reason for my suspicion of nutella and townread of FZ.

I do see a moment in which you stated your perspective that the two differed for you. It's less clear though what specifically made you like nutella less at the time in her posts versus FZ's. Please talk about that.

Dyslexicon wrote:I highly disagree that they were illegible any more than early reads are, and will continue to give reads just the way I want in future games.

I encourage you to play however you want to play. If you're to claim though that your .gif reads had any relevant meaning, then please clarify what all of them were meant to convey.

Dyslexicon wrote:I realize self meta is unhelpful in game. Anyone who wants can have a link to my last scum game to see what that looks like if they want. The reason this point in particular is something I don't see myself doing as scum, maybe especially surrounded by so many players I don't know well, is just that I as most players am image conscious as scum, so outright supporting a teammate that was highly suspecting this blantantly just would look bad. What you see is my immediate reaction to reading that post. Yeah, it was wrong, but it was a town reaction. I also think you're a good enough player to understand why I would not want to do this if I was scum without my explaining it to you, I think it was implied in my first post. Whether you believe me or not is another question, and whether you want to or not is a third.

I don't necessarily think self-meta is unhelpful. I do believe that some players do report on their own meta in times of crisis or pressure in ways that are genuine, and indeed they are often discarded too quickly for fear of WIFOM. I am inviting you to talk about this because I am willing to listen to it. On the matter of FZ, your early reception of her wasn't especially "supportive" -- the specific example we're discussing here was, but I wouldn't call that thematic of your treatment of her. I think you covered a wide spectrum with her; to include questioning her, voting for her, and supporting her. The breadth of that spectrum isn't necessarily a problem, but it does stand against the point you're giving me here: that you were "outright supporting" of her full stop while she was under suspicion.

I don't like the highlighted portion. You've implied that my motivation for discussing this with you is insincere, but you haven't actually said that, while also asking that I read your mind (to know how you'd explain something before you've explained it to me).

Dyslexicon wrote:I have a question for you: Do you think you've sorted me out? I have more questions than that, but want to start there.

I don't think I've "sorted you out". I think you're a suspect. I think I need to engage in this dialogue with you to maximize my chances of making the correct judgment. What is the purpose of this question?

I barely have time for 48. Keep it there please.

Talking with Dizzy:

Spoiler: show

It doesn't make me feel much of anything. I could believe that the mixup was genuine. I highlighted a question you asked though which covers some of my room for doubt: I don't see what reason you have to care if the thread knows you and "FZ/FM" had played together before. The dialogue is all neutral.

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I understand that you can't really answer to the Luke kill. It's circumstantial suspicion. That's how the game works though. If the Luke kill was motivated by a cop hunt, then it's a bad look for you -- Luke's only read on Day 2 was to suspect you. That's not the only plausible scenario, but it's one that must be considered.

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It's been no kill in each example I've seen. I doubt that's relevant to this game with the entire mafia team alive.

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I don't know that I believe you had real intentions behind the cat gif reads. You could explain them now just about any way you want; they were illegible when you provided them.

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Okay. I'm forced to take or leave things like this at face value, because you're telling me what your own meta is. It might be helpful if you'd explain why you wouldn't do whatever thing as scum instead of that you wouldn't do it. This is a recurring theme throughout your response.

Spoiler: show

It looks that way. The attempt was rather blatant. Did you anticipate drawing a night kill for this?

Dyslexicon wrote:I don't know what is normal or not here, but wouldn't it just make sense as a last effort anyway instead of just to roll over and die? Also, what is the significance of her coming up with it herself or not? Wouldn't all other suspects here, myself included, be likely to see fake claiming as a possibility?

Yes it makes sense, as is visible in the results of the gambit. It worked. Whether it makes sense is less meaningful to me than whether a player is likely to actually do it -- I don't drive my reads based upon what is most "ideal", but rather what I perceive as most "likely". This kind of gambit simply hasn't happened much on The Syndicate if at all, even in scenarios where it probably should have, because most players are not accustomed to this kind of claiming environment. FZ especially has been away for a while when games like this have become more prevalent. I made a judgment call and it was wrong. I don't know who came up with the idea; my reads are focused on other points.

Having reviewed the interactions, I'd rank the teammate candidates as follows (least to most likely):

Golden
Marmot
INH
Dizzy

Las interacciones de FZ y insertnamehere

FZ stuff

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FZ's mention of INH here appears pretty forced, as though she felt the need to acknowledge his existence however she could. That's not great.

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She voiced some support for the notion of lynching INH on Day 1, though that support was half-hearted with caveats. She revisited this, in combination with comments about MP and nutella, later in response to accusations that she wasn't providing enough reads. Her Day 1 vote ended up on Long Con while the latest prevailing wagons were nutella and INH, so she didn't follow through on this.

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This question serves little purpose other than to smear Eloh and INH for missing votes, something unsurprising given their sporadic presence in the game.

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Her original suspicion of INH was half-hearted, but she seems to have discarded it by Day 3 when she asked for a case. Reiterated

~~~

insertnamehere stuff

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He was dismissive of the early dialogue between MP and FZ. I'm not sure what "he said/she said" means in this context. Please expand, INH.

Bottom red in a Day 2 rainbow

He didn't like her responses to attacks. It'd be ideal to know which responses this refers to, as it is apart from the prior dismissal of the MP-specific conversation.

Spoiler: show

He went for an FZ/LC dichotomy after the cop claim and didn't initially take a side. In the end he followed Occam's Razor, which I think was an LC vote (correct me if not). INH, you said you meant to look at their posting histories to make your decision -- did you do that, and if so what did you find?

~~~

Conclusion

I think INH emerges from this looking worse. Most of FZ's posts and his EOD1 dismissal are bad looks. His read from Day 2 onward is severe, but there isn't follow-through.

Las interacciones de FZ y Marmot

FZ stuff

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When FZ dug into MP for the "drawing out the cop", the accusation was focused around speedchuck listing Marmot as green in a rainbow and MP inquiring about it. I find myself wondering whether she'd be equally willing to take this angle of attack if Marmot is her teammate versus if he isn't. If Marmot is bad, then there ought to be other opportunities here which require less effortful manufacturing, like erroneously linking Marmot to speedchuck and/or MP down the line. It's a complex and speculative notion I grant. Either way it's fair to think that FZ meant to discredit her accuser (MP) above all else, and that would leave Marmot as a bystander.

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She revisited the matter a number of times while answering questions about it. Marmot continues to exist as a bystander in this discussion. I think the highlighted portion is a decent look for him. It was specifically not the read itself that she wanted to harp on, it was MP's treatment of the read. I don't know that most baddies approach this scenario this way if their teammate is the bystander.

Spoiler: show

She supported Marmot's suspicion of Dizzy on Day 3, but also garbled that support into a giant waffle. She positioned herself here in such a way that she could treat any potential Dizzy lynch however she wanted and still have supporting data behind it. If Dizzy was to be lynched she was set to share the credit or the blame with Marmot, another decent look for him.

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Prods him for an INH vote.

~~~

Marmot stuff

Day 0 banter

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I've said on a couple occasions that I think this is the sort of little detail that a civilian Marmot tends to notice. I wouldn't say this is a purposeful accusation if they're teammates beyond WIFOM, because it's not likely to move anyone. It looks more like something he noticed and felt like exploring.

Spoiler: show

The vibes are vague. This comment is fluff.

FZ is one of three greens in a Day 1 rainbow. I don't know what inspired this read.

Marmot supported FZ in her concern about MP drawing out the cop. He also clarified here that his green reads were intended to contribute to the cop cover strategy. It's a convenient answer.

Discarded his prior concern regarding the timestamp observation re: FZ and Dizzy

Spoiler: show

He felt FZ looked sincere in her responses to MP.

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He supported FZ in her late Day 1 grievance with LC. I don't object to that, because I did too.

Part of his case against INH was that he believed FZ was an easy target for INH's suspicions.

Spoiler: show

Marmot supported FZ in her cop claim. I understand the base premise of the reason he provided -- that in the absence of a counterclaim, the claimant should generally be believed. This is a standard I have voiced before. Circumstance shouldn't be ignored though, and I do think there was room for question in the scenario we saw unfold given that FZ was under lynch pressure at the time of the claim. I'll grant that if Marmot is her teammate then this is very brazen public cop hunting that they'd have collaborated on. WIFOM.

~~~

Conclusion

It's a mixed bag. I think FZ's posts reflect more positively on Marmot, because she was sort of using him as a circumstantial weapon to attack MP. Marmot's posts are less encouraging, largely on a basis of WIFOM for his vocal support of her on Day 1 and his response to her cop claim. I'd say this interaction is teammate compatible, but with enough reservations that a confident read is difficult.

Las interacciones de FZ y Elohcin

FZ stuff

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Softball question for Elohcin regarding her meta perspective of her husband. Expanded. This looks like FZ just trying to cram herself into some dialogue or another which would make Elohcin a circumstantial bystander.

Gives speedchuck shit for a rainbow, specifically coloring Wilgy and Eloh orange (along with her) without discussing those two as much. This reads similar to a "why me?" defense in that FZ is griping about receiving more negative press than two other baddie reads beyond just the rainbow. I think that's a nice look for Eloh. FZ pushes the issue with MP by criticizing him for not inquiring with speedchuck about those reads. It's all quite cooked.

Spoiler: show

This is a question thrown into the void, a prod of the two people least likely to answer it. It bears the appearance of a smear.

One last prod

Elohcin stuff

Nothing really other than a brief response to the initial meta query about Epi.

Conclusion

I think the best look is in FZ's handling of the speedchuck rainbow and MP. Beyond that, I think we'll have to judge Golden at face value for the content he puts in the thread now. He's shown solid investigative energy so far. It's an overall positive.

Las interacciones de FZ y Dyslexicon

FZ stuff

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Brief exchange in which there is some confusion about who FZ is. Things like this bear some capacity for WIFOM which leaves me disinclined to view it as dissociative. Dizzy strikes me as a fan of WIFOM.

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FZ. gives civilian reads, Dizzy prods for explanations, FZ. responds accordingly. This is a neutral exchange between them in terms of their treatment of each other. Dizzy's prod for expansion is an okay look in that it forced FZ to qualify further than she may have wanted.

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FZ covers a lot of ground in this discussion -- to be "thinking the exact same thing Marmot was" in this circumstance would be to suggest suspicion, but she went to some lengths to devalue that suspicion with the rest of this commentary. The reasoning is questionable too: if Dizzy is mafia and thinks Luke is the cop, that shouldn't prevent Dizzy from trying to lynch him. The mental gymnastics supporting the waffle aren't a great look. She reiterated the point later.

Dyslexicon stuff

One of six players included in this early list of "cat .gif reads". It's pointless.

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This vote appears meant to be RVS. Its reactive value would seem limited without any reason provided though, no matter how petty. "Cause wagon" isn't my favorite phrase at face value. Vote placed here

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Their interaction that follows from that vote is rather chummy. FZ says a lot about the vote but doesn't take a stance beyond the eyeball emoji. Dizzy doesn't go anywhere with it thereafter.

Dizzy Day 1 reads list -- They took a stance (slight scum) which is better. Dizzy asserts they didn't like FZ's first post, which had been a dialogue earlier. I don't believe Dizzy participated in it until this moment. That would have been the sort of accusation which'd ideally be tacked onto the "wagons are fun" vote previously.

Dizzy next post was to like one of FZ's -- apart from liking the post, the rest of Dizzy's commentary here is to contest her reception of MP's cop strategizing and ask for expanded thoughts. It's not clear why Dizzy liked the post.

Day 1 POE list, FZ is in the "could lynch" tier

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Typical prod.

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They placed an FZ vote late in Day 1 and then observed that they were not alone in doing so. The language accompanying the vote is tentative.

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This question was soon followed by a changed vote to nutella. The prodding continued which is what led to the discussion of FZ's town reads I already mentioned.

Dizzy doesn't like FZ's reaction to the nutella flip. The middle portion of this post in which Dizzy voices suspicion of her based upon the notion that nutella's alignment was clear pre-flip is hard to follow and at face value doesn't look great to me. That's an extremely specific accusation based upon a premise that I don't really buy.

Spoiler: show

Dizzy asked this question after having already given MP a "RIP". That means the question is unanswerable and was meant to be rhetorical -- "what should we make of FZ and Marmot being elevated on MP's list before he died?"

Not ideal.

Day 2 POE with FZ on the bad end.

Contemplating FZ/Marmot as a team but not FZ/speed

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Day 3 vote for FZ is their first mention of her that phase. Expanded with an assertion that we're "close to the time of solving". This is vague. Dizzy please explain what you meant by that.

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After her cop claim, Dizzy was doubtful.

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Dizzy made it clear they wanted to lynch FZ and sided with LC throughout EOD, including voting for me in the end. I am hesitant to award much credit for their having been correct given that this commentary occurred when the LC wagon had taken off. The likelihood of the lynch moving back to FZ at that point was lessened. If Dizzy is bad then this would represent a pretty standard example of highroading a lynch.

~~~

Conclusion

I would call Dizzy a compatible teammate of FZ. The positive indicators are smaller and less numerous than the negative indicators.

Marmot wrote:
Marmot wrote:Do you think FZ opted to fakeclaim on her own, or that another player (in this case Dizzy) may have proposed the idea?
The reason I asked this question was because Jay specifically said near the EoD he didn't think FZ would have fake-claimed like this on her own.

Jay, knowing now that FZ likely did fake-claim, what do you make of that assertion?

I wasn't sure she was the type to pull a fake claim gambit at all given her minimal experience playing in roleclaim-friendly mafia games. She was absent for much of 2016 here when those games truly became more prevalent on The Syndicate.

I was wrong. It's possible she was advised by a teammate; it's possible she came up with it herself.

Golden wrote:http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 04#p351602

Looking at the last three posts before MPs death, starting with that one... what do people think of Marmot's post in there? I tend to think it looks like, not something a baddie would bother asking when they are about to kill MP.

Could be. If Marmot is bad, MP's last living post there would be a victory for him. The question he asked would then represent milking it, which strikes me as unnecessary.

Marmot wrote:I'll be around tonight and tomorrow to say stuff.

Also, Epignosis was kightkilled. You know what that means?

Do you feel the kill should reflect positively on you?

I'm here for a while. Go go gadget interactive reads.

Hey y'all, my current Mafia focus has to be on prepping the crossover. I'll return to this when I can. At least the next lynch is clear cut.

Good lord.

Hat's off, FZ. That was a good play.

Long Con wrote:Ok, I will happily vote JJJ.

Please kill this guy.

Epi why the hell are you doing this right now? I am not bad and you do not have a red peek on me.

Epignosis wrote:I'm the real cop and 3J is bad. I forgot to send in my other PMs though. Sorry.

Nope. Cut that shit out. What do you think of FZ/LC?

Apart from the peeks I find myself wondering whether FZ is the sort to even fake claim. This kind of dynamic is unique to heists and I don't believe she has played many of these if any.

There's not much to evidence an Epi peek in Day 2. FZ was hardly present during that stretch.

I do see some evidence of a Wilgy peek:

Spoiler: show

It's not exactly clear given that he's shoved in the middle with two others. She spoke of Wilgy often on Day 1 and didn't voice suspicion of him.

Dyslexicon wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Dyslexicon wrote:@JJJ - Not going to respont to your ISO, sorry. Don't know what else to say than I think I've played a pretty straight town game (well, straight for me lol), and I can't really answer to the Luke kill, which is annoying.
I don't care about your answer to my ISO. I care about your reads.
Well, I'm going to

Vote FZ

And then I will note that your tone has changed towards me. Do you not care about my health and well being anymore?

Well I don't mean to be a jerk. Why the FZ vote?

Dyslexicon wrote:@JJJ - Not going to respont to your ISO, sorry. Don't know what else to say than I think I've played a pretty straight town game (well, straight for me lol), and I can't really answer to the Luke kill, which is annoying.

I don't care about your answer to my ISO. I care about your reads.

Long Con wrote:JJJ, even with MP specifically seeking peek-cover compatriots, you would expect to see a peek reveal that was somewhat obvious? In this post, he seems like he wants to, at least.

I belabor the point only because I feel like it's a weak-ass reason to supposedly rule someone out from being the cop, just because you didn't notice a peek from him. Sounds made up.

I've already spoken about this well earlier in the thread. The lack of a visible, clear peek is not the only reason I think MP was a poor kill. I also think he was the clearest cover for the reasons I spoke of repeatedly which recall what he did in Arrested Development Mafia. He made a cover play that kept the real cop alive in the last day which secured the win -- he has made cover work beautifully before and his desire to repeat that was all over his discussion of the cop.

It's not "weak-ass", it's a combination of meta and observation. MP being killed didn't leave us with a "seer hunt cleared" name either because there wasn't a clear peek in his posts. If the mafia thought he was the cop then the mafia were not paying attention. I don't know what motivated the kill or what strategies the mafia wished to pursue. Based upon my experience playing in this setup both as a civilian and as a mafioso, I think it was a bad choice.

Long Con wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
Spoiler: show
speedchuck wrote:
DrWilgy wrote:JaggedJimmyJomps has been hacked by Vomps!

What a twiiiiiiiist!!!

Mafia, plz don't kill me early. I had to move away from my Wilgette and need this to keep my mind busy.

(and I'm still most definitely a doctor... just a zonked one...

So, who is bad?
Elohcin wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:I also like the way LC handled all of that conversation, looking into it more intently.

I'd say I have two town reads already then. Cool.
What about me? What about me?
I can't fully explain the gut feel, but these two posts gave me bad vibes. Wilgy addressing the mafia sounded suuper fake, which may have been the point, but my gut doesn't like it.
I also just get the willies anytime someone begs for an early read from a trusted towny, probably even more so when it's masked by jest.

These two posts seem jokey, of course, but I get a non-genuine feel from them. And on D1, that's enough to shove someone to the bottom of the heap.
speedchuck is now a town read.
JaggedJimmyJay, how did you know this wasn't his Day 0 peek?

I don't know that. If he intended that to be his peek it was strange execution -- his first reception of speedchuck was negative.

Epignosis wrote:Then that would make Luke a poor choice either way.

That depends on how the mafia perceive the cop threat. Here we are talking about whether it is a legitimate implication or a setup.

Long Con wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Long Con wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Long Con, tell me why MP was an obvious night kill choice.
Civ leadership role, little to no suspicion, lots of cop talk.
I think he was a poor kill choice. He was the most vocal about cop cover and did not leave a readily-discernible free peek that I can see on Day 1. You suggested earlier that you thought he might be the cop yourself. Why did you think so?
Maybe there was no free peek? I just looked at the kill choice and said "Why did they kill MP? I guess they thought he was the cop, trying to hide out in the open. I guess they saw him as a threat and it's easy to see why/"

Floyd said there'd be a free peek in the sign-up thread.

If the mafia don't actually know that then it makes more sense for MP to be viewed as a cop.

Epignosis wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Epignosis wrote:Was Luke a good kill choice?
I can understand him being viewed as a cop candidate given his low profile, so from that perspective it's an understandable choice. That is the chief point against Dizzy.
It's also a chief point that someone was trying to set up Dizzy.

Sure. If that was the motive then I think it was a bad choice.

Epignosis wrote:Was Luke a good kill choice?

I can understand him being viewed as a cop candidate given his low profile, so from that perspective it's an understandable choice. That is the chief point against Dizzy.

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