The Syndicate

Damn it feels nice to not have to bullshit today.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Wed Sep 07, 2022 9:03 am GG.

You played me into a corner Jay well done. I wish I had the stamina EoD 4 to have actually played out my vote on you.

When you voted me at 3:30am, I was terrified that you’d immediately fall asleep and I’d be screwed

outed wolf wrote: ↑Wed Sep 07, 2022 9:08 am nice bus

disappointed you killed me n1 :P

Yeah that was lame. I didn’t want you upsetting the status quo, and the time zones were much friendlier to you. Cheap shot.

Good game everyone

I dedicate this one to @MissSparkles.

What do you make of the idea that Sparkles tried pretty hard to pocket Sabi? That’s a significant driver of my town read.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Wed Sep 07, 2022 3:02 am I'm changing my vote to [VOTE: Sabi ] aubergine and setting an alarm.

Got one shot for mom's spaghetti I guess.

I know Sabi is traveling, but I don't know if Sabi autos this much f3. Plus my re-reads really weakened my town read on Sab while also weakening my W read on Jay.

I can now see that there is a scenario, where EoD Jay becomes so wrapped up in my vote shift where MAYBE he can beleive that he spooked me out of a snipe. I still think that's ridiculous, but MAYBE there's room for Jay to believe it. Especially if he's emotionally invested in fighting against the jay f3 paranoia which he keeps bringing up.

I'll think about this and wake up in 5 or so hours I suppose.

What do you mean by “autos”

As I’ve said, my morning will be demanding. I will try to poke in and out while I can up to the deadline.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:47 am Ugh,

Further reading of Jay's actual posts regarding the EoD, and maybe he is just paranoid town.

Emphasis on "I hate that" perhaps suggests that he legitimately believed I was trying to snipe him, and in him believing that maybe, just maybe he also believes that I was spooked off him.

Jay, even when sleepy, and I cannot iterate this louder. I take the 50/50 with Nook if possible 100% of the time.

I think the current alignment would leave mafia you with something resembling a 50/50. Sabi voiced paranoia about me before this phase. They and I also represent players who take some amount of care and listen, while both Nanook and falcon shoot from the hip.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:23 am I just went through Sabi on Esooa again.

idk, I just don't think it's Sabi. I really don't see that case coming from wolf. I could be wrong, but rn the effort that went into that push when it happened at least feels like it's from a town mindset.

This is one of my sticking points. This is a read that could use some expansion, and it’s critical to this final 3. Even if you have since changed your mind, I need to better understand what led you here while you were here.

What was it exactly about the “effort” and the timing of Sabi’s Esooa case that had compelled you? What distinguished them from any instance of any player giving an effort?

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:17 am Esooa wanted Jay.
Nook wanted Jay.
Falcon wanted Jay.

I don't know how it's not Jay when I think about that.

They could be wrong? I'm continuing my Sabi assessment now.

From your hypothetical solving perspective, fine, but I want to ensure this is property contextualized. Nanook and falcon also had you in their POEs (Nanook just shrunk his to include himself). I don’t recall Esooa’s read off hand.

They were wrong about me anyway. I live long enough and folks are going to worry about me. Just the way it goes.

Regardless of alignment I appreciate the effort Wilgy

I’m here, sort of

There’s much to process.

It's getting late, and I am getting tired.

I think Wilgy is more likely to be mafia. I think he was the better overall fit entering the day, and I don't think he has played this final 3 like town. If it's Sabi, then all one can do is tip the cap. I will still be around for a bit yet, but whenever I pass out I pass out. I'll still be open to talk as long as I am here. It's possible I wake up before the deadline tomorrow, but I cannot make guarantees. It's a busy morning ahead either way.

[VOTE: DrWilgy] aubergine

@DrWilgy, regarding your Sabi read:

What I am looking for is evidence that you have given this day real thought. I see so far what looks like evidence that you decided how you felt before it even started.

You showed up and voted me. You called Sabi town for pushing Esooa (town). You have spent a great deal of effort complaining about reads that you don’t think are mafia indicative (my concern about last night, your activity level, your meta), and none of that means “Wilgy is town” even if I accept them.

Nobody needs to keep a personal JJJ calendar when I am literally playing the game. My posts indicate when I am here. I have spoken a number of times about what I have going on outside the game. Right under my avatar says I live in Ohio. It was 3:30 in the morning. That’s not just some reasonable time for me to be awake and react to anything.

You fit with Sparkles because you created an outed wolf wagon for what strikes me as little clear reasoning and stayed on it as it countered Sparkles. You left Day 1 speaking in Sparkles’ defense too.

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 6:57 pm Why didn't w!Wilgz just vote for you Jay during eod

If you mean literal deadline EOD, like when the poll is expiring, then 1) that means staying up all night or setting a crack of dawn alarm (everyone has to sleep including Wilgy), and 2) making an incredibly shady vote onto a tinfoil wagon right at the last minute with no chance for any conversation. Then the “it was a reaction test” excuse isn’t even an option. I’m just dead and he has to answer for it.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 6:47 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 6:36 pm
DrWilgy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 6:33 pm Him "thinking" that fear of backlash got me off him last cycle is still an absolutely preposterous claim.
No it isn't. You placed a vote in the middle of the night, and I wasn't supposed to be there to fight it. That creates a unique situation, and I don't think the explanation you're shoving down my throat is the one that has to be true or even makes the most sense.

There are other things about you that I find suspicious. You can continue to harp on this, but it's unlikely to change my mind. I need to see you talk about Sabi in a meaningful way.
If I wanted to snipe you, why did our interaction happen hours before EoD? In the middle of the night isn't a moment before EoD, so if I was sniping, why did it come with room for you to respond? Hell, setting an alarm isn't hard, if sniping you was my goal I 100% just do it before EoD. Your argument doesn't make sense Jay.

If it's a snipe, why do it with time before EoD?

If it's a snipe, why didn't I commit?

Again, there's no saving you if Falcon wasn't around. Does a Wolf Wilgy ever choose to enter last day with Nook over you?

And I will continue to harp on this, this is critical for understanding and explanation. You can't answer those questions honestly and I think it's because you know I was just doing what I thought to do in the moment without much real thought otherwise.

The deadline is at the crack of dawn. Both of us have to sleep. You’re not going to hang around literally all night waiting to snipe, and doing it unannounced right at the deadline creates suspicions of its own. These are not compelling questions. If I am literally unconscious, then it’s functionally the same thing at 3:30am or at 8:30am.

You can keep yelling about this. There is a whole game behind you.

I don’t think your Sabi read today looks real.

I think you fit with Sparkles by association.

I think your engagement with the game tanked commensurate to the mafia win outlook.

I think you’re out of your town meta.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 6:33 pm Him "thinking" that fear of backlash got me off him last cycle is still an absolutely preposterous claim.

No it isn't. You placed a vote in the middle of the night, and I wasn't supposed to be there to fight it. That creates a unique situation, and I don't think the explanation you're shoving down my throat is the one that has to be true or even makes the most sense.

There are other things about you that I find suspicious. You can continue to harp on this, but it's unlikely to change my mind. I need to see you talk about Sabi in a meaningful way.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 6:29 pm Yeah, I'll try to take an unbiased look at you and sabi in a moment as I gotta double check.

I just don't think I'm wrong here though.

I don't see how a town Jay doesn't come to the same conclusion that I would've just day yeeted him had I been wolf.

I don't think it's reasonable to demand that I have that exact interpretation of such a specific incident. Anyway, go ahead and do your thing. I'll be around for the most part.

Essentially, Wilgy, I want you to investigate Sabi in some capacity. As it stands my vote might as well already be placed. There remain numerous hours ahead though that I am willing to use.

Alright -- just getting a vague idea of the process that led you to your decision.

I would like for Wilgy to respond before I make my final decision. I'll continue thinking it over. As most other nights here, I doubt I am going to be able to hang out late into the night in this game thread prior to the deadline, so it'll have to be sooner than later. I have an early morning tomorrow.

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 4:34 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 4:33 pm
Sabiplz wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 4:15 pm He voted Nook for not a solid reason D1 to try to counter sparkles after the lucy wagon died.
Did you mean outed wolf instead of Nook, and if not does that difference mean anything to you?
I got the names mixed up. My b

That's fine.

Were you primarily thinking about the game in broad terms, or have you been looking in ISOs today during travel, etc?

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 4:15 pm He voted Nook for not a solid reason D1 to try to counter sparkles after the lucy wagon died.

Did you mean outed wolf instead of Nook, and if not does that difference mean anything to you?

I'll be a bit busy this afternoon running the labs, but I should still be able to poke in sporadically.

Given the day so far, I am leaning toward Sabi as the other town and Wilgy as mafia. I suspect Wilgy wanted to weaponize me for paranoia, and in so doing he has had to force some justifications for why Sabi is town (justifications that don't work, e.g., Sabi is town because they pushed a town chop or Sabi is town because they wouldn't leave me alive), and it looks inauthentic rather like Sparkles did at the start of the game. That also extends from my general developing views of the game over the last few days.

I am not totally sure, and I can't help but worry that this is what I am supposed to do given that I've town read Sabi and they're still here with me. So I am still listening. To both of you.

Sabi, whenever you're available today after traveling, please say the word. I understand that is your priority, not a forum game, but I should be around this evening.

Town casing myself

Spoiler: show

I placed it all in a spoiler to alleviate the wall pain, but it's still important to review this. If there are questions, please let me have them. The game is still winnable, and this is a critical step for both town members. I don't ask that the other town write a massive wall like this, but any effort to provide a "why I am town" argument is appreciated. I will listen. I can't guarantee I will receive every point well, but I will listen.

I need to sleep.

Wilgy, in the event that you are town, then I strongly encourage you to review this game more thoroughly — all of it. I’m not it. As it happens, I have never been to any final 3 as mafia in my career except for 1 in my literal first game and 1 in a sockpuppet when I could pretend I’m not me. It’s just not how I play that alignment.

Sabi, I look forward to hearing from you when you have the opportunity. There is a lot to process, and we need to do so as much as possible. I understand you’re traveling so do your best.

“JJJ gets dragged into final 3 as town as a paranoia distraction and eats the game losing mischop” has happened to me before.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 12:07 am Actually, I think I may have been one of the last people to give Sabi a hint of 'you might be w' and that happened when like Esooa was alive?

Yeah, Sabi aint it. If Sabi was wolf I don't know if Falcon dies before me.

Falcon voiced some suspicion of Sabi last phase. Falcon was understandably paranoid and had some suspicion of everyone, including you and I.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 12:05 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:23 pm
DrWilgy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:17 pm Alright, and again, why would I move back if I'm wolf? You fail to acknowledge that my best shot for wining would've been right there if I was wolf and I chose to toss it away.
I’m saying that if you’re mafia, you don’t intend to move back. But then I show up out of the blue, make a stink, and scare you back to the Nanook wagon. If I am dead and everyone sees my town flip, my words carry weight in final 3. It was unexpected that I’d even have the chance to leave that legacy that late at night. It breaks the strategy, or at least it can.
Then I have a 1v1 with Nook and let Sabi pick between us. Sweet.

Why would I EVER keep you alive. What would I have to be afraid of? Nook would still be alive.

And maybe I'm wrong, sabi's the wolf and you are presenting a completely practical read of me that's just incorrect. I'm like 75% though on that not being the case.

Once I intervene that all breaks down. You continue to gloss over that.

Now that I am here I am a paranoia magnet merely for having the username that I have. I am not particularly surprised to be here regardless of which of you is mafia.

If you can see my read as practical then why are you presenting it as though it’s nonsense and/or the stuff of mafia agenda?

I don’t think your reasons to town read Sabi make sense.

“They pushed a town chop” doesn’t make sense. Not at this point.

“They wouldn’t keep Jay alive” when I’ve town read them all game long doesn’t make sense.

The entire notion of “who is shooting for a mafia wincon” strikes me as vague and meaningless right now. Just discarding that possibility for Sabi in this phase is a problematic mindset.

Alright, we still have time

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:15 pm I'm just gay and town.

Don't mind me.

Watching you two cross.

I'm not chilly.

I still want to know your thoughts.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 04, 2022 3:29 amoki

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 04, 2022 3:30 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun Sep 04, 2022 3:28 am My top town read is Sabi. falcon follows. Wilgy’s mafia prospects increase if he kills me here and walks into final 3 with Nanook. The two of them would need to be thoroughly examined and made to answer for themselves. No matter who is there though, give due scrutiny. I don’t want to see “I’d rather lose to X than Y” or any such thing. Play to win, no matter who.
Calm down. Explain this one.

I mean, you do this “reaction test”, I show up an give a reaction that was inherently unlikely to even happen, and this is all you did with it.

“oki”

What is the point of this test? What are you looking for?

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:17 pm Alright, and again, why would I move back if I'm wolf? You fail to acknowledge that my best shot for wining would've been right there if I was wolf and I chose to toss it away.

I’m saying that if you’re mafia, you don’t intend to move back. But then I show up out of the blue, make a stink, and scare you back to the Nanook wagon. If I am dead and everyone sees my town flip, my words carry weight in final 3. It was unexpected that I’d even have the chance to leave that legacy that late at night. It breaks the strategy, or at least it can.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:15 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:12 pm
DrWilgy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:07 pm I don't think it satisfied wolf wincon in the moment. I.e. a wolf's timing on that push is awkward.

If Sabi was wolf, the Esooa push would've happened after nook yeet.
That seems like a very generous interpretation. They’re both town. Chopping them in any order is great, especially if Esooa (a player who is often aggressive) can be silenced first.

These are snap reads that can make some sense earlier in the game, but now is final 3. It feels like you’re trying to justify a read (Sabi town) instead of truly explore it.
Why do you imply these are snap reads? I've had Sabi as town most of the game. Just however this comes to mind when comparing who's trying to wolf wincon.

Also you disparage the read as snap, but technically we are currently with the most information possible. Shouldn't now the peices of the puzzle be coming together?

That’s precisely what I mean. Sabi has been a town read for most people all game long. And yet they’re right here with us. That demands some kind of exploration, and to default right to “town read” again without doing that is similar to making a “snap read” (not exactly like something on Day 1, but the spiritual equivalent in this game state). I have thought Sabi is town this game too, but there has to be some inkling of doubt. I don’t know how you can so easily make that judgment right now, and the rationale is questionable.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:11 pm
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:08 pm
DrWilgy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:05 pm So answer me this, if I'm wolf, what incentive did I have to move back? Falcon was still on you right?

Feels like that not trying for that yeet would've been a massive misplay in the context of me being wolf as you had already said the PoE was Nook and I.
If you’re mafia then the play didn’t work. My roommate’s dog was literally keeping me awake, so I hopped in and happened to see it. Then I broadcast exactly what the motive would be. Moving back is, in that world, an abort mission.
Your vote was already on the counter wagon. It would've been up to Falcon and Nook to be up and to shift. Why would've I aborted for YOU specifically?

I'd understand this argument if it was Falcon saying 'nah' but that didn't happen.

The point is that, if you’re mafia, that wasn’t a reaction test and you probably didn’t expect me to show up and say anything about it.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:07 pm I don't think it satisfied wolf wincon in the moment. I.e. a wolf's timing on that push is awkward.

If Sabi was wolf, the Esooa push would've happened after nook yeet.

That seems like a very generous interpretation. They’re both town. Chopping them in any order is great, especially if Esooa (a player who is often aggressive) can be silenced first.

These are snap reads that can make some sense earlier in the game, but now is final 3. It feels like you’re trying to justify a read (Sabi town) instead of truly explore it.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:05 pm So answer me this, if I'm wolf, what incentive did I have to move back? Falcon was still on you right?

Feels like that not trying for that yeet would've been a massive misplay in the context of me being wolf as you had already said the PoE was Nook and I.

If you’re mafia then the play didn’t work. My roommate’s dog was literally keeping me awake, so I hopped in and happened to see it. Then I broadcast exactly what the motive would be. Moving back is, in that world, an abort mission.

It is kind of hard to believe that was a reaction test at what would have been 2:30am for you.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:03 pm I think the way I see this game is simply this:
Jay hasn't done anything that would imply he's not playing a wolf win con.

Sabie's efforts on Esooa, didn't satisfy a wolf wincon. W Sabi I don't think cases and foils a towny that hard.

So [VOTE: Jay] aubergine.

Advise me as to why I'm wrong before we lose the game here.

How does casing and chopping town (Esooa) not satisfy the mafia win condition?

It doesn’t have to make Sabi mafia, but I don’t see how you discard the possibility.

The alternative chop you voted was me, the only one in the game I know is wrong. I’m going to push a Nanook chop over my own chop every time, and all of my POE work had led me to that chop anyway.

But for you to drop in at a time when I have been asleep pretty much every phase and sneak a vote onto me — yes, there is absolutely room for agenda there. As with anything, that doesn’t have to be the case, but you better believe I am voicing that possibility as a legacy if I am about to eat a chop.

@DrWilgy you were doing a reaction test in the middle of the night? It’s frankly a miracle I was even awake. It was quite literally 3:30am in Ohio. What is your time zone?

In the meantime, I'd like to say that over the last couple days I have assembled my dissertation committee and sent out requests for letters of recommendation as I begin my job hunt. Doing that stuff is always supremely awkward, and even having sent the requests is a huge relief. Human society is nonsense, and I have no idea why we do this to ourselves.

This has nothing to do with the game, ignore me. I just wanted a release.

I want to hear from Wilgy.

I will town case myself later. The other town player alive should remember that we have to handle two objectives to win a final 3: vote correctly and prove we’re the wrong vote. I encourage both of you to do the same.

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 11:09 am Yes

thots

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 10:31 am Lind if hard to have break out maf game when I have randed mafia twice in the last like month and can't really change my meta like that

Did you catch up on the last eod before this phase started?

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 10:17 am I mean if you want to count fol as chat mafia since it's not really like forum mafia imo.

But I started playing end of September 2021 ( just checked when my first game was). My only experience has been forum ( besides the irl party games).

I have also played avalon, sh, and tos (the irl version and not the forum version) as well before I played forum mafia.

Thanks.

I'm trying to determine to what extent this game would be "abnormal" for you as mafia. It doesn't look like the other games you linked or that I found on MU. I have seen players have "break out" games before though where they kind of figure it out and then ball out.

I have to consider the possibility that you left me with Wilgy knowing that he had I have been at odds recently, expecting an easy cross between us.

Sabiplz wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 10:01 am
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 9:50 am @Sabiplz can you expand on exactly what made you vote Nanook last day phase?
POE reasons.

He didn't really town tell.

Dead townies had him in their POE

Okay. Same, essentially.

I’ve seen some of your forum mafia-aligned games. Did you play any other style before forum (e.g., chat mafia)? What’s your total experience level like?

@Sabiplz can you expand on exactly what made you vote Nanook last day phase?

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