The Syndicate

uneditable formatting error

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:This seems to be ninja's primary defensive post in the face of Sloonei's suspicion, broken up so I can address individual points:

Spoiler: show
nijuukyugou wrote:I don't want to quote Sloonei's entire case again because it was a real pain in the ass to format and re-format, but I will respond to points he brought up about me. For your convenience, his case can be re-read here for those of you who keep claiming you're going to "look up the case on Blooper again."

Reading through this case, I'm not even sure what team Sloonei is trying to peg me on, because neither team makes any sense. He said my interactions with G-Man and sig "do not paint me in a favorable light." So if he's making the claim that I'm on Team Webber, then he's also asserting that I threw not one, but TWO teammates under the bus without even trying to defend them. I don't count giving G-Man, a player who just subbed in, one day's grace as a defense. Even the host gave that to him. I also don't count not mentioning sig except later in an unfavorable way as a defense. And I sure as shit don't count VOTING FOR TWO PEOPLE ON MY "SUPPOSED TEAM" as a good way to play mafia. It doesn't matter if they were later votes. It would still be two supposed teammates. That's poor, lazy, and cruel team playing, and I'm not any one of those things.
I get the impression that Sloonei was more inclined to suspect you as a Team Webber member than a Team Wildhorn member. He can correct me if not. I have two points to make about your Team Webber-based self-defenses.

1.) They're unfair. It isn't remotely uncommon for a mafia player to vote for two team mates, and when it happens it is neither poor, lazy, or cruel play. It is perfectly valid strategy, and it often works. So for you to insinuate that it is an absurdity to be faced with these accusations is frankly incorrect.

2.) Your candor and language move me more than your logic. Your comments read to me like a frustrated townie who feels like the case against her is bunk (even if it is not bunk) who is lashing out. Mafia players are obviously capable of mimicking this manner of frustration, so it's up to everyone else to make a judgment call. And I think you read like a townie here.

My judgment call is not the same as yours here.

Spoiler: show
nijuukyugou wrote:If he's trying to peg me on Team Wilhorn, that's also nonsensical. I made a crazy tie-up vote Day 1 for LC a) to amuse myself and b) because I (rightly) believed LC was bad. I would never throw a teammate under the bus on Day 1, especially with a vote that close. That's idiotic. AND I VOTED FOR HIM AGAIN because my mind did not change about him.
I agree that it would be harder to peg you as a member of Team Wildhorn. That doesn't mean it's "nonsensical" though. In Economics on Day 1, Birdwithteeth placed a very bold vote for his mafia team mate Bass that could have legitimately gotten him lynched. It didn't. If someone suspects you've done something similar with your Day 1 LC vote, they have every right to say so. That person is then charged with the task of delivering a believable case for why he/she feels that way, but again -- it's never "nonsensical". That is unreasonable of you.

And given that I have illustrated a decently parallel example that worked brilliantly for the mafia, you definitely can't justify calling the notion "idiotic". Just like I said before: anti-town players have done these things and they have been effective in countless mafia games throughout the history of the Internet.

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nijuukyugou wrote:Sloonei himself admits to making this case with major tunnel vision turned on, and it looks like the logic sensor was turned off. One of his other major points is that I didn't mention enough suspicion of sig at the right time, and that sig's weird posts about me gave him pause. I've already addressed the first point. As for the second point, I will say it again as I said to Sloonei: this is precisely the kind of paranoid suspicion that sig was going for. He attempted to paint me in a bad light by lying about me (he said I switched up a vote when I haven't switched a vote all game, even since he was lynched), then buddy up as he was going down (and then buddy back down again) so I could look bad.
Regarding the part I highlighted: please show me. You don't have to restate old defenses, but if you could refer me back to the point where you addressed this that'd be super. Otherwise, most of the points Sloonei makes about sig's commentary and then your responses must all be seen as speculative to anyone who is not either sig or you. However, you do provide an important example of sig attempting to smear you (by accusing you of some kind of bad vote switch that didn't happen).

I addressed this here.

Sloonei: what is your response to that specific point of defense by ninja?

Spoiler: show

The case wasn't nonsensical. I am currently inclined to believe that your defenses are genuine, but that doesn't mean there's no case. Your own commentary about how you typically behave or would behave as a mafia member are honestly irrelevant, because there's no way anyone else can just take you at face value there. That's pure WIFOM.

I read you as more town than mafia, but not so securely as you seem to think is warranted.[/quote]I am not familiar with nijuukyugou, so I can't claim to know how she would typically respond to a case like this one, but her strong dismissal of it as "nonsense", and all the stuff about her rejection of the theory that she's on a team with sig/g-man, makes me feel like this reaction is not genuine, and that she's reaching to swat the case away rather than addressing things directly.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Sloonei wrote:But everyone seems to have left, rendering the discussion of other things unattainable.
Give me a topic. We can conquer the whole page if we must.

You said you've got some town vibes from a few of nijuu's posts. Which posts in particular gave you these vibes and why?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:The thing that made me reconsider Neverwhere as bad the most was her interaction with G-Man, but I think Sloonei has done well to show why that probably shouldn't be so important. G-Man seemed to enter the game as dead meat.

I feel more comfortable lynching Neverwhere than nutella. Anyone who follows my lead: I take full responsibility for whatever happens. I think it's the best move.

Oh, I actually thought Neverwhere's interaction with G-man was pretty telling. Yes, he entered the game as dead meat, but Neverwhere had not taken a firm stance with anyone until that point, and she did it with G-man right away, about a topic that wasn't necessarily related to the content of his posts. With tunnel vision turned on, I can easily see this as a scum player distancing themselves from a teammate.

The tally seems to have been pushed back an hour later from where it had normally sat at earlier when I was in the game. This is good, I thought we were approaching the final minutes before the deadline.

But everyone seems to have left, rendering the discussion of other things unattainable.

Neverwhere continued

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Neverwhere wrote:Sorry you gott go sig, but glad we finally caught some scum!

I'm not really sure about TB being mafia anymore. Her reactions do read pretty genuine, however....

Golden -- you said that TB was playing her usual civ game and that in previous games she's had pretty spot on insticts, or something like that. However, the two games I've played with Bubbles, mafia won both time and in only one of those games did a mafia get caught and that was because of a little slip up. That is not to say I don't think Bubbles is a good player -- I do. I'm just wondering if you could elaborate as you make it sound like she was top baddy catcher....

That "we" feels a bit ambitious, as I don't recall her being on the sig bandwagon at all. In fact, a ctrl + f search of her post history reveals this as her first mention of sig's name, and it comes after he'd been lynched. She then backs down from her TinyBubbles suspicion, but not entirely as she follows up with a question about her.

Spoiler: show

I can continue to read this as possible scum teammates distancing themselves. G-man was a hot target before he even entered the game, and this is really the first firm read she's offered on anyone all game (her TinyBubbles suspicion was almost completely based on Bubbles' "I'm civ" post). She's been very vague and waffly all game with everyone, and this is by far the hardest stance she has taken on anyone to this point.

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Very similar to that earlier post she made about "noticing [BR's] slip" that wasn't really a slip. Here she again latches on to a very tentative and speculative statement which might condemn another (town) player.

at this point i am fairly confident that Neverwhere is bad. I can go on, but this feels like a good enough place to end.
There are other topics to discuss.

Let's look at Neverwhere again.

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Her first real game-related post, after a bit of harmless Day 0 banter. She wordily explains her way into stating a suspicious against Hedgeowl, like she was looking for some specific avenue by which to enter into some early suspicions. She hints at being suspicious of three of the big names in the thread at the time but fails to state any reason or opinion about them, and then parrots another case which had been stated by Turnip Head earlier in the game. If Neverwhere is scum, then something like this might also help to clear Turnip Head (and whoever's replaced him, I'm not totally sure who's in for who at this point) from at least being on Neverwhere's team, as this post has the feel of a scum player seeking out a genuine case to piggy back on early in the game.

Spoiler: show

She continues to only vaguely hint at a case against SVS and cobalt, two popular names in the Day 1 discussion, and then waffles on her one definitively stated suspicion against Hedgeowl. It's understandable to lack some confidence on Day 1, but I am still skeptical of the language with which she is asserting her reads. She's, less subtly than some, giving herself reasons not to post a whole bunch in the thread. I accused a number of people of this early in the game, and it worked with at least one player (gamerguy), but I did not pick up on Neverwhere doing it as much. She does it pretty glaringly here, though.

Spoiler: show

Neverwhere wrote:
Canucklehead wrote:Thursday, June 18, 2015
9:23 AM

So I 100% lied lastnight and didn't read a damn thing or make a comment, but I'm doing so now. The wait is over, friends. Canuck is here, all is well, let your great fat bellies be soothed.
Here are my observations after reading (let's be honest, I barely read. Saying I skimmed would even be generous) Day 0/1. These are stream of consciousness notes that I'm taking as I browse, so apologies when I say shit that’s already been resolved/dealt with. Just look at it as a little extra dramatic irony in the narrative of my unfolding submersion in the game
- Lots of people I don’t recognize or know. Hi new friends! If you are at all serious about mafia, you are going to hate me. Yaaaaayyyy! *kermit arms*
- Lots of new jargon and acronyms being thrown around (gth? Iso? Yaaawwn) Looks like some of you spent too much time watching the big boys play during the Champions tournament and have become infected with their slang. Ick.
- For some reason, people are talking about the Reading Rainbow Kickstarter, and I am currently gulping coffee from my RR backer mug. I AM SOOOOO FUCKING COOOOOOOOL
- My thoughts on the perennial voting for newbs discussion: I hate and fear new people because they may be more clever than me and will steal away from me my very dear and much beloved mafia friends, so I advocate for shooting them in the face the minute they walk through the door. But that’s just me.
- Cobalt pops in with a not-so-humble brag about being MVP and having awesome instincts so we should fear her enormous mafia balls. Cool.
- Golden jumps in immediately after with a more subtle but no less eye-rolly brag about how he was sooooooo smart his first mafia game that everyone got naked and did a dance in his honour. Did everyone take an extra dose of Chest Puffing pills this morning?
- I'm in love with Gumshoe. Hi, sailor.
- Epi thinks "interesting" is a stupid word. I agree. The next time an undergrad hands me a paper telling me how "interesting" Measure for Measure is, I am going to set it alight and force them to watch their minutes of half-hearted effort burn to ashes in front of their eyes. HAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHA. Take that, undergrad!
- Epi's analysis of LC is poorly received by SVS who is too savvy to be impressed by "enigmatic crap"
- People are now saying "interesting" a lot. I imagine this is a baddie plot to get Epi's face to explode. I wonder if it will work!
- Bwt shows up and Golden drops in an OT comment about bwt bussing a teamie that, were I being especially paranoid, I might think is laying the very first teeny seed in case bwt should need to be set-up for a lynching later…
- Epi is ON FIRE this game. His response to SVS is astute and on point
- Golden attempts to buddy up to Epi, but his buddying up to Epi is not as good as my buddying up to Epi
- I've just noticed that there is a player who has Paprika from Blue's Clues as their avatar. I will never vote for this person.
- OMG I'm only on page 5. This is super tedious and boring tbqh.
- Golden attempts to make a portmanteau about a colourless rainbow. Fails. Instead, makes a portmanteau evoking the plethora of wheat varieties available in this great nation.
- Gumshoe likes Golden's word. I no longer like Gumshoe.
- DDL (aka old me) pops in with a banal post. Yawn. Former me is boring.
- People are trying to gang up on Gumshoe, my beautiful love (I lied before, when I said it was over between us. I can't pretend anymore. Even if you do like Golden's horrible word, I LOVE YOU GUMSHOE! TAKEMENOW!), and should be prepared to face my wrath for impugning his spotless character.
- TH, our knight errant, comes pricking onto the plain with his sword directed at Hedgeowl's heart. I had no recollection of Hedgie's posts, and I just read them within the last hour, so I can definitely buy some sort of blendiness accusation there….I could also, however, buy an attempt by TH to redirect discussion away from Epi's attention suck and onto other things….
- MM votes for LC and runs.…
- Ooooh! I just replaced in! AND I CANNOT BE LYNCHED, BITCHES! HAHHAHAHAHHAHHA
- Epi strokes my ego by bringing up Roger Rabbit. I do very much like having my ego stroked, but I guarantee I will not play that well in this game. That might have been a once in a lifetime blaze of glory for me and it was fucking exhausting. For this game, I'm back to my usual MO of relying on snark and latching on to other people's suspicions to get me through this game.
- Scotty provides some nice cover for me by "speculating" that I'm neither mafia nor a civ power role. Thanks, Scotty!
- DDL comes back in to ruin my ill-gotten trust. Bastard.
- Dfaraday pops in with a post that makes it clear he hasn't really read the thread, and instead has only read a few people's impressions of the thread
- Paprika asks a lot of questions that she wants to seem important/probing….but I don't think she's hitting the analytical home runs she thinks she is
- MP WOT INCOMING!!!!! Hi, MP. Missed you.
- I basically skimmed the last couple of pages cuz I got bored.

Right now, I'd be willing to vote for Golden, SVS, Cobalt, Slooni, and maybe LC or TH.

Glancing at the poll, it seems like there are lots of people who haven't chimed in on anything (but maybe I just glossed over them in my "read through")…..Dreams? Tiny Bubbles? Who else?
Marry me.

Can someone tell me how many hours till the end of Day 1? Time zones fuck me up.

Positively reacts and acknowledges Canucklehead's first big post in the game, but doesn't offer any comment on it.

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Missed the vote, and claims she would have voted for SVS, the confirmed indie. Neverwhere never gives any reasons why she is suspicious of the people she mentions, just lists them as names, and also works in a remark about/at Epi 1.0, who would soon be killed.

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More vaguely-stated suspicions. It's like she's trying to win a secret "who can be the most vague?" contest in the thread. I think she's winning at this point.

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Drops a vote on Cobalt (I think) on Day 2, when he was everybody's mother's top candidate, and then she leaves.

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"Excuse me while I WIFOM this out." Golden presses her on her stated suspicion of him and she falls back on "odds are it will happen eventually", which is to say "there's no real reason." There has been no content thus far which inspires me to believe Neverwhere is town.

At this point she makes the "slip up" observation which has been noted a thousand times and remains suspect.

Spoiler: show

Present skepticism aside, when the TinyBubbles bandwagon first flared up, it was the lowest hanging fruit this game has seen to date. Anyone who was on that case became a major target to me. Neverwhere seemed like one of the most eager to pursue a Bubbles lynch at that time.

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The vaguery continues, and the suspects continue to be the easiest ones.

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"My vote's on Bubbles, but I'd be open to jumping on any bandwagon that starts up today."

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Feels like a bit of an ambitiously stated early suspicion against me. A lot of people made the observation about me asking loads of questions early on, but Neverwhere was one of the few who seemed to spin it in a firmly negative light.

I'm also noticing now that she took a firm stance against G-man in the thread right away, but not about any of his game-related content; she instead calls him out for the format of his posts, a repeat of his Economics picture posts. This may suggest that she's a teammate of G-man's trying to set up some immediate distance before he goes down.

this is taking longer than i expected, so i'll post what i have for now so that it's out in the thread. Not that I expect everyone to care, but if you're considering voting for Neverwhere, here's a fragment of a case.

nutella wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I'd have preferred it if nutella hadn't gone *poof* right after gaining a little support.
Hey hey, I'm still here, just had an errand to run. Glad to see I might get another chance. I'm totally down to jump on a Neverwhere lynch, and it'll break this horrendous tie, so I'll go for it.

Why Neverwhere?

Epignosis wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Hey look, Golden voted for me. I figured somebody would.

I'm going to assume my behavior on this page re: nutella is the reason and respond accordingly:

When someone makes a post that gives me pause about my crusade against them -- I am always going to allow that "pause" to be expressed publicly within my own behavior. Anything else is pure stubbornness/tunneling and I try not to play that way. I'll reference things in her post that inspired this reaction from me, even if it's largely a matter of intuition.
I can vouch that this is perfectly ordinary behavior for Jay.
Regarding a silent vote that has been placed on him temporarily by a silent person?

Yes, that as well.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Hey look, Golden voted for me. I figured somebody would.

I'm going to assume my behavior on this page re: nutella is the reason and respond accordingly:

When someone makes a post that gives me pause about my crusade against them -- I am always going to allow that "pause" to be expressed publicly within my own behavior. Anything else is pure stubbornness/tunneling and I try not to play that way. I'll reference things in her post that inspired this reaction from me, even if it's largely a matter of intuition.

I can vouch that this is perfectly ordinary behavior for Jay.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Also Sloonei, you had asked earlier w/r/t my case on DFaraday why I am so certain TinyBubbles was town.

I'm not. I am treating every player who has flipped town on death as though they were a townie. The Jekyll/Hyde character does exist, but I don't think it's advisable to make significant strategic alterations based on theories of any specific dead player being that role.

I just wanted to know you had acknowledged this possibility in the game. As insignificant as it appears, it is still the case that that role exists and we might at some point lynch a bad guy that appears good.
I would not bank on it at any point though.

Currently working on a fresh ISO for Neverwhere.

I just discovered the two extra pages of smilies.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:MOCK ME ALL YOU LIKE, ELOHNOSIS. I WILL ENJOY.

I'll be mad with you, ravingjimmyjay.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Sloonei, what are your thoughts on Neverwhere specifically? I saw that you'd given the GTH mafia read, but I don't recall you saying much else.

It's more of a gut feeling. I recall having some particularly strong lingering suspicion about her that I couldn't place my finger on while we were both around early in the game. I felt like I was close to having some sort of case on her but didn't have the time to look into it. She since seems to have left the game under some pretty rough circumstances and I hope everything is going okay on her end, but I can't help but suspect that she was scum in this game and has since abandoned her post. I wonder how this would fit in with metalmarsh's speculation about night kills.

fingersplints wrote:I've played with you a bunch as well and I am reading you as bad so

Why? What specific points point you toward bad nutella?

nutella wrote:Sloonei, what do you think of Spacedaisy reading me as my usual town self? Considering she has played with me before lots of times and you never have.

I would love to hear more about this, from anyone who has played with you before. You indicate that a number of people here have played with you. but have not yet commented on this. Who are they?

Epignosis wrote:Hey Sloonei.

Dem figures from da hood.

How corrupted you is?

10/10, corrupted to the bone.

nutella is not by any means out of the woods for me yet, but that post may have momentarily swayed me to lean more toward Neverwhere.
My mind is not made up and I need to look into their posts again before I can come to a decision. I'm here until the deadline, probably.

I was just going to say that nutella's post right here at the top of this page reads as very genuine to me. I've never played with her before, so I cannot speak for anything of her past behavior, but the tone of that post felt like the right amount of desperation for a townie at this stage in a lynch. I would appreciate some confirmation on the honesty of her own meta-critique, if anyone can.

A cursory glance at fingersplints' post history leaves me feeling pretty good about her, and there is very little chance that I'll be voting for her today.
I was planning to do a thorough casing of splints, nutella, neverwhere, and DFaraday right now but I just got invited to go on some outdoor adventures and could say no. I don't know if I'll have time to do all my homework before the deadline, but at this point my vote seems most likely to end up on Nutella or (if Nutella is able to convince me she's town) Neverwhere.

If anyone has anything to say about any of those four names, please speak up. Here's my mini rainbow rankings of the four of them, bearing in mind that I've still not done as much research as I'd like since being resurrected:
fingersplints
DFaraday
Neverwhere
Nutella

niju remains my top suspect, but her case doesn't seem to be catching on still.

Why do you believe epi is indie? And why did you have a civ read on Gumshoe? I apologize if you've already explained this, but it couldn't hurt to refresh our memories.

Splints has been a divisive case since the beginning of the game. A lot of people have had her as a top suspect, mainly because she's been quiet, but others, myself currently included, have been more trusting of her. I admit to not having looked into her at all since I got back. Any new thoughts you can share about why splints is bad would be very useful.

nutella wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
nutella wrote:Hmm thanks for the insight on MM, Daisy. You've drawn attention to some weird behavior that I wouldn't have caught otherwise. I look forward to his response.
Do you care to comment on any of the votes that have been cast against you?
I already commented on the first two, and I don't think I'm going to get an explanation from Golden.

What about other things? How do you feel about possibly being lynched? Who are your suspects? If you've got a rainbow in you that would he nice

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Sloonei, who do you want to lynch today?

nijuukyugou. But, as that is highly unlikely to happen, i can also possibly get behind Nutella, DFaraday, or Neverwhere. The state of inactivity has left us in an undesirable position

nutella wrote:Hmm thanks for the insight on MM, Daisy. You've drawn attention to some weird behavior that I wouldn't have caught otherwise. I look forward to his response.

Do you care to comment on any of the votes that have been cast against you?

Spacedaisy, you came in to the game at a strange time. What has your general approach been, and who would you say are your top suspects right now?

I think there is some merit to MM's analysis of the night messages and nightkill flavors throughout the game. This is not to say I agree or disagree with his conclusions, but I think it's a good thing to have brought up.

I wanted to produce a lot more content than I have today, but my day was longer and more tiring than I was anticipating, and I'm mostly asleep at this point. I'll hopefully get back at it tomorrow. In the meantime my suspicion remains most heavily on ninja, but I think nutella and DFaraday have been trending more downward than anyone else since the time that I left. Neverwhere is probably my strongest inactive scum read at the moment as well. I had a number of unanswered questions about her before she stepped away.
still reading things, but i don't have the focus or energy to produce any big casing posts tonight. maybe something will inspire me.

For the people currently voting for or suspicious of Nutella: which team do you think she is more likely be on? Why?

I am skimming through the pages since my death. Forgive me if I bring up things that have been covered already.

DFaraday wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:i am sure this has been addressed already but: in a two-mafia-team game, how is it a relevant defense to survive a night kill?
It makes it unlikely that you are on the team that tried to kill you. Although, I once hosted a game where a baddie team NKed their teammate Night 2, so I wouldn't put it past any Mafia team to fake a kill.

I think Golden is probably not part of the plot, but I agree with Timmer that this sudden push for Cobalt, who's been on the backburner for days, is suspicious and comes across as a BR save. My thoughts on BR have not changed, aside from becoming even more suspicious of her, so I'll put my vote on BR for now.

*Votes BR*

If possible, DFaraday, could you recall who you thought was trying to save BR by pushing for Cobalt's lynch on this day? And why was Golden not "part of the plot"?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Regarding the part I highlighted: please show me. You don't have to restate old defenses, but if you could refer me back to the point where you addressed this that'd be super. Otherwise, most of the points Sloonei makes about sig's commentary and then your responses must all be seen as speculative to anyone who is not either sig or you. However, you do provide an important example of sig attempting to smear you (by accusing you of some kind of bad vote switch that didn't happen).

Sloonei: what is your response to that specific point of defense by ninja?

Here are the sig posts in question, so that everyone may judge them for their self:

Spoiler: show

His initial reaction was a strange reaction to niju's Day 1 vote which seemed very forced, and then when pressed to rate his suspicion of those of us on his bandwagon, he provided the nulliest, wafflingest read possible on niju, going above and beyond to say something and nothing at the same time. It was odd. I do not necessarily see it was sig trying to smear niju, as all he ultimately manages is to give her a complete null read. It seems like he was trying to distance himself from a teammate, but didn't want to leave her looking too suspicious. However, I absolutely cannot dismiss the possibility that it was just sig picking one target at random to act strangely toward, but this response doesn't feel strong enough to be something like that. It feels more like he's simply overthinking it (which also does not implicate niju in itself, but).

And now I can finally get back to casing niju

nijuukyugou wrote:I don't want to quote Sloonei's entire case again because it was a real pain in the ass to format and re-format, but I will respond to points he brought up about me. For your convenience, his case can be re-read here for those of you who keep claiming you're going to "look up the case on Blooper again."

I like and appreciate that she is actively promoting the case against her in the thread. Thank you ninja for not letting yourself slip back into the shadows. That said...

Reading through this case, I'm not even sure what team Sloonei is trying to peg me on, because neither team makes any sense. He said my interactions with G-Man and sig "do not paint me in a favorable light." So if he's making the claim that I'm on Team Webber, then he's also asserting that I threw not one, but TWO teammates under the bus without even trying to defend them. I don't count giving G-Man, a player who just subbed in, one day's grace as a defense. Even the host gave that to him. I also don't count not mentioning sig except later in an unfavorable way as a defense. And I sure as shit don't count VOTING FOR TWO PEOPLE ON MY "SUPPOSED TEAM" as a good way to play mafia. It doesn't matter if they were later votes. It would still be two supposed teammates. That's poor, lazy, and cruel team playing, and I'm not any one of those things.

This whole paragraph set off every alarm I have. She first mentions that she's "not sure what team" I had her pegged on, but it was a fairly prominent point in my case that I had been working with the theory that she was a member of team Lloyd Webber, with sig and G-man. For her to express confusion over this point feels a bit like she is overreaching to dismiss the point. She then goes on to say that she can't be on that team because she "threw two teammates under the bus", which is both painting her behavior in a more favorable light than reality and creating a palpable layer of WIFOM. niju may very well have taken part in both lynches, she was 8th/11 and 12th/13 in their respective lynches, and I don't remember her being a driving force in either of those lynches, both of which were landslides by the time she cast her vote. So for her to dismiss the possibility by hinging on her track record as being too staunchly opposed to these players here is a bit misleading. And then she casts that layer of WIFOM by seemingly forgetting that bussing is a thing that frequently happens in mafia games. These would not be cruel, lazy, or poor team moves. She would have looked more suspicious for not following along at those points.

If he's trying to peg me on Team Wilhorn, that's also nonsensical. I made a crazy tie-up vote Day 1 for LC a) to amuse myself and b) because I (rightly) believed LC was bad. I would never throw a teammate under the bus on Day 1, especially with a vote that close. That's idiotic. AND I VOTED FOR HIM AGAIN because my mind did not change about him.

But here she acknowledges the possible strategy of bussing a teammate, when before it was not even something that crossed her mind. Regardless, I was never trying to peg niju on team Wildhorn.

Sloonei himself admits to making this case with major tunnel vision turned on, and it looks like the logic sensor was turned off. One of his other major points is that I didn't mention enough suspicion of sig at the right time, and that sig's weird posts about me gave him pause. I've already addressed the first point. As for the second point, I will say it again as I said to Sloonei: this is precisely the kind of paranoid suspicion that sig was going for. He attempted to paint me in a bad light by lying about me (he said I switched up a vote when I haven't switched a vote all game, even since he was lynched), then buddy up as he was going down (and then buddy back down again) so I could look bad.

Listen to logic, people. If you've ever played on a team with me before, you know I'm not a lazy player (especially since I have a crapload of free time right now!) and I avoid throwing teammates under the bus as much as possible, at the cost of my own thread reputation. This case is nonsensical, and while Sloonei made it with good intentions for the civs, it's wrong. That's all I hope I have to say on that. I'm gonna have a look at people who are really, suddenly eager to get on this case without actually getting on it. I'll return later with thoughts.

I had tunnel vision turned on, yes, but I think that can be a useful tool. When I say I am tunneling a person, I mean that I am looking at their posts specifically through the lens of them being scum. If I find the case believable, I follow up on it. I found this case believable. My point about sig, and the one which remains most relevant at this moment, as its still not been satisfactorily answered, is that nijuu, in a Day 1 post, said that she had "garnered some good reactions" with her vote for Long Con in a heavily contested poll. She would later claim, on Day 5, that one of those "good reactions" was her "first ping" on sig, but when looking back through the rest of her posts, there is very little evidence to suggest that she was suspicious of sig any point near that, and quite a bit of evidence to the contrary of this. That, coupled with her questionable behavior with the two lynched Lloyd Webber baddies, gives me a strong suspicion that she is the third member of their team.

This is just an update on where my thoughts were at the time of my death. I will refresh points as I get back into the game fully now.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:A number of people including me have expressed some vague misgivings about DFaraday. So I'll look into him now.

Spoiler: show
DFaraday wrote:
Gumshoe wrote: My pm mentioned Sondheim, Brown, Schwartz, and Hammerstein together. It also repeated "lyricist" and "3/4" over and over. I think it may be Schwartz's role and I don't think he's a threat to us but I obviously can't be certain.
Lyricist could apply to any of those names. And 3/4 is a time signature indicative of a waltz. Mine was something about "revived" and "most overrated". I hope that's not a shot at The King and I.

I do think it was odd that Hedge brought up bandwagons for no particular reason. I think it could be to preemptively establish herself as looking better if one player does take a lot of votes, while also not really committing to anything herself.

Epi is reading as standard throw-everything-at-the-wall Epi to me, and LC hasn't done anything to ping me either. I don't agree with Epi that LC was using inflammatory language or trying to avoid offering his thoughts. He's done quite a lot of offering that I can see.

SVS is also on my radar for how strongly she reacted to the "interesting" thing. I doubt anyone will get lynched because they used an empty term like "interesting" or such, so her reaction towards Epi seemed misplaced.
This guy seems like a pretty no-nonsense type player. Almost every single one of his posts are directly relevant to game discussion. That's just an observation, it doesn't mean anything. Anyway, I highlight his third post here because it exemplifies that: he entered Day 1 with some immediate thoughts to share. The good thing here is that he took some real stances and made decently specific observations. This indicates to me that he was paying close attention to the content of other players more than to his own content: the mark of a townie. The only negative point to be made is that the four people he chose to comment on were perhaps the 4 most often discussed in the game to that point. His originality can be questioned.

I think I had this exact same point in my early ISO of him around Day 4, whenever I was silenced.

Spoiler: show
DFaraday wrote:Responses in magenta, because I like magenta.

Sloonei wrote:
What are your thoughts on the possibility of LC and Cobalt dominating the discussion? Is this a good thing or a bad thing? Do they deserve to be the centers of attention? What makes you think Cobalt is more bad than LC?
As always, any reads on anyone else that you might have would be handy as well.
I think this kill could have been Cobalt trying to frame LC while setting himself up as the victim, and also I find his last minute vote switch to SVS very shady. I do think we need to get to the bottom of this feud or else it will continue to upstage everything else (pun intended). Not to say they have to be our only focus, but no matter what LC/Cobalt will be a major talking point for the time being.
The night kill of Epignosis 1.0 seemed to be a hot topic on Day 2, probably because of Epi's small handful of significant suspicions and the implications associated with him in his death. DFaraday suggested it might have been an intentional frame job perpetrated by Cobalt to smear Long Con. This turned out to be exactly the opposite of the truth, but DF wasn't alone in that perspective. Faraday: I'd ask you if you could revisit your mindset from this early stage and explain why you felt it was Cobalt doing the framing rather than Cobalt being framed?

Spoiler: show
Day 1:

DFaraday wrote:
TinyBubbles wrote:And i'm a good guy AGAIN for the third time in a row!
I wouldn't really question that if you hadn't mentioned it...

DFaraday wrote:
Sloonei wrote:Let's all pretend none of Cobalt, SVS, or Long Con are available to be lynched today. Who do we all vote for then?
*Whom

TB is on my radar with her eagerness to let us know she's a civ. Apparently she's done this before, but it's still pingy to me.

But for now I think I'm going to *vote SVS*. I know she definitely could manipulate voters' sentiments if she wanted to, and I think that could have happened as early as the comments about Epi's "interesting" speech.
Day 2:

DFaraday wrote:Responses in magenta, because I like magenta.

Sloonei wrote:Has anything changed about your feelings toward TinyBubbles?
I guess I feel slightly better, since that one comment is the only ping I've gotten from her.

DFaraday wrote:
Sloonei wrote:Who is your top suspect right now, DFaraday? would you be willing to put an early vote on anyone right now?
I suppose still Cobalt, although his over-the-top reaction to LC surviving did seem pretty sincere. Were I to do a rainbow list, the next highest people would be TB, Hedge, and Gamer Guy (now G-Man). I think Golden may have been on to something with his find, but i agree with MM that it's not really in the spirit of Mafia to use other threads for info.
Day 3:

DFaraday wrote:I've fallen behind over the last day, I need to catch up. Going off of my cursory glance so far, I'm thinking Golden/LC is civ/civ. Golden, at least, is pretty unlikely to be on one of the baddie teams.

For now I'll put my vote back on TB, since I know I'm not actually going to vote for Cobalt today.

And also, I agree with Nutella that not reading the thread and not making cases are two different things. One is lazy, one can be lazy or a strategy.

DFaraday wrote:I'm not sure why I said "back" on TB, since I hadn't voted her to begin with. I need coffee.

EBWOP: Because I've already found her suspicious, and I haven't yet caught up on the Sig/LC/Golden stuff going on.
One thing that interested me about DFaraday in the first half of his ISO is this progression in his read of TinyBubbles. We know now due to her Day 6 lynch that Bubbles was town, so it's especially important to verify the thought processes people displayed in this thread leading to her lynch to determine whether they were sincerely suspicious of her. I think there is some decently suspicious content here for Faraday. He played with a decent degree of thoroughness early in the game, so that he went for this Bubbles case and placed that vote on Day 3 is troubling -- especially because this was the phase in which sig was lynched. When Faraday placed his vote for Bubbles, it placed Bubbles in a 4-2 lead over sig (before the landslide eventually swept sig away). That's a pretty bad look.

Here I would have to ask why you are so confident that TinyBubbles was town. I have had a lingering doubt in the back of my mind while on the sidelines about TinyBubbles being Jekyll & Hyde. I did end up feeling like there was a lot of questionable behavior in her posts, and the role description appeared in the OP shortly after her death, from what I remember. It's not too certain, but it's enough to plant seeds of doubt in my mind. I think I saw this discussed in a few places while I was gone, but I am not sure what anyone's general stance is right now. What do people think about the Jekyll & Hyde role?

It can be forgiven if his case against Bubbles is significant enough to warrant his vote... but I don't see it. In fact -- there isn't a case at all. The only distinct negative comment Faraday made about Bubbles' content in this game was that very minor Day 1 "ping" at the top of this quote pile. Otherwise, the only things he says about her are either positive, or negative without any reason given. So, in a phase in which a mafia was eventually lynched, Faraday gave a confirmed townie a 4-2 tally lead over that mafia player without ever actually mounting any kind of case against her. Faraday is definitely going to need to answer to this.

I do agree with this, however. I don't remember Faraday's case against Bubbles evolving into anything too substantial, but it could just be that he didn't express it.

Spoiler: show
DFaraday wrote:Finally caught up. Good job, everyone, even though I probably wouldn't have voted Sig had I been around. I didn't find the case that convincing, but apparently it was right

I do agree that Splints' vote seems like it could be a teammate bandwagoning, but for that matter, Ninja's vote rubs me the wrong way too. She does straight up say it's a bandwagon vote, but I still feel pinged by it.

I hope LC and Golden can move on from the feud for next day. It feels like a whole lot of miscommunication, probably between civs.
This is the second time I've seen Faraday refer to the LC/Golden "feud" as being a likely civilian versus civilian affair. This bugs me a little bit on two fronts: it is a subtle means of linking Golden with LC, and also it obviously serves as an indirect soft defense of confirmed mafia LC.

Spoiler: show
DFaraday wrote:G-Man seems to have no interest in defending himself, and it reads like a defeated baddie to me (or at best an unhelpful civvie). Speaking of unhelpful civvie, that's how I'm looking at MM. If he were bad I don't think he'd have such tunnel vision; this is definitely a departure in style for him. I'm still not convinced about LC being bad, either, so MM's sureness seems misplaced.

I will go ahead and *vote G-Man*

DFaraday wrote:Yay for no death! Even though I'm probably still going to vote G-Man, his vote chart is helpful. My initial takeaway from it is that the later LC voters from Day 1 are unlikely to be Mafia 2, since the vote was fairly tight all the way up to the end. And given the way MM has played, I very much doubt if he's on that team, so I think basically all of the LC voters on Day 1 are not Mafia 2.

Similarly, I'd think the early Sig voters on Day 3 are probably not Mafia 1, but once it started to turn into a runaway, I'm thinking one or two teammates slipped in. So I'd say Sloonei, Scotty, FZ, and Bubbles look pretty good in that regard, but MM, Ninja, or FS (or more than one of them) could have been a bandwagon vote for a teammate.

DFaraday wrote:I'm going to go ahead and *vote G-Man* now. Nothing has changed my mind about him.
This is somewhat curious treatment of G-Man on Day 4. It's decent enough that he placed his vote for a mafia player, but the progression here seems at least a little inconsistent. The first post asserts that G-Man has "no interest in defending himself", which in itself is really not a terribly scathing accusation. We've all seen townies do that many times I'm sure. The primary point of interest is that he said G-Man was at best an "unhelpful" civilian. So it's noteworthy then that in the next quoted post, he maintains his anti-G-Man stance despite calling his vote chart "helpful". "Helpful" is the opposite of "unhelpful", which was a key component of his prior accusation. So if that changed, I am curious why he didn't seem to budge at all in his stated suspicion (as he reiterated in the last quoted post).

This is the phase in which Long Con (the mafia team of which G-Man was not a member) ended up lynched. DFaraday's vote for G-Man made it a 5-4 tally lead for LC -- quite close and still swingable into a G-Man lynch. I think there's valid reason to suspect based on the above that Faraday's suspicion of G-Man was somewhat disingenuous. That might indicate he was bussing G-Man to improve his credibility, or it might indicate he was protecting Long Con.

Either way, that's a bad look.

G-Man was eventually lynched the next day phase, but it was such an avalanche tally that it's really not possible to give anyone credit for it based on just their votes.

0 for 2.

DFaraday's rate of contribution has fallen off quite a lot in recent phases. I'll leave him to explain why. One troubling result of this is that his focus has been consistently narrowed. Over the last three day phases, he has said very little about any player other than the three in the above quote: Cobalt, Bass, and ninja. We already know two of them were town, and it's entirely plausible three of them were. Given the highly suspicious, easy nature of the Cobalt and Bass lynches and Faraday's lack of thoroughness as they were perpetrated, I view this with suspicion.

DFaraday's final votes for reference:

Day 1: S~V~S (2nd of 7)
Day 2: Cobalt (6th of 9)
Day 3: TinyBubbles (4th of 4)
Day 4: G-Man (4th of 6)
Day 5: G-Man (4th of 13)
Day 6: Black Rock (4th of 4)
Day 7: Black Rock (2nd of 7)
Day 8: No vote
Day 9: Bass_the_Clever (3rd of 6)

~~~

Overall, I think DFaraday plays a tight game. He conveys the right sort of pro-town persona. However, there is a significant amount of dirt I just dragged up without having to look very deep. He has 42 posts in this thread, and I still had all of those issues with his content. I think he's suspicious and will call him an anti-town read.

I encourage him to address my points. I'm always open to hear rebuttals.

I like where a lot of this is going. I snipped a random chunk of content to make this less big, not because I found it any less meaningful than the rest of the content here. Did Faraday respond to this ISO in any way? I will probably find it along the way, but I have other matters I want to tackle first, and it couldn't hurt to refresh the case against him right now.

my laptop had started up but when i picked it up to move to my desk, it restarted and the process has begun again

i can see my home page!

DFaraday is in this game. I need to keep that in mind.

That's a not-fully-refreshed set of GTH reads, for the record.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Jay! Call the last two members of each team GTH. Go!

(Possible NK'd members included).

Lloyd Webber:
Nijuu
neverwhere

Wildhorn:
MP/epi
Devin/Gumshoe/maybe daisy but i don't think so

Technical difficulties persist, hang tight

Does anyone have any questions I can answer in smaller posts while i just have my phone? It is not helping that the red sox are currently in a rain delay. I am completely at a loss for things to do.

Been waiting a half hour for my laptop to start up so i can make big posts.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:I voted Bass as a placeholder.

Why? Surely you must have actual suspects right now.

Sorry dudes, I've been busier than expected today. I hope to put up some big posts and get fully back in the swing of things at some point later tonight.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Sloonei, question for you... When you presented your case against sig earlier in the game, did the majority of players seem to support or reject your case?

The case caught on pretty quickly and easily. I remember more support than rejection of it. I would have to look back to recall specific cases.
I am curious as to why you are asking this question.

nutella wrote:
Sloonei wrote:Who do you think has arbitrarily voted for you, Nutella, and why?
Well obviously splints and niju, as they have just voted for me. Both of them just kind of tagged along to my name being discussed and said something like "ehh I guess I'll go ahead and put my vote on nutella" without giving any actual reason. Niju in particular was like "oh I'll either vote for splints or nutella, hmm what the heck let's go with nutella" that is the definition of arbitrary right there.

@Splints that's because my reasons for you are pretty much those cases, and particularly your voting record. I think your behaviors toward LC and BR were potentially teammate-ish. I know you have defended at least regarding BR.

I feel like you are taking niju's vote out of context here. She was flippant about it, but not because she seemed to be thoughtless about it, but because she had to run. I came back from the dead and suggested that everyone put a vote on their top suspect. Niju did that, and then she left. You're right that she could have given more reasons to support her vote, but I do not have the same objection to it that you are mentioning here.

Who do you think has arbitrarily voted for you, Nutella, and why?

I feel like MM is an independent. I don't have anything to back this up at the moment.

Spacedaisy wrote:I want feedback on MM because frankly he has me feeling all kinds of bad vibes right now.

Ninja Splints and LA, what are your opinions of MM please?

JJJ, same question.

I'm going to go back and read your ISOs Jay.

What is your opinion of ninja?

fingersplints wrote:What happened to your guys rainbow reads?

They'll come when i'm on my laptop
Could you give us an approximation of what your hypothetical rainbow would look like?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I'd be more likely to vote for nutella than for fingersplints.

I'm not a big fan of creating a nutella/fingersplints dichotomy though. They have probably been the two most-often discussed suspects entering this day phase, and that's fine. But let's keep that field of suspicion broad.

What do you think of nijuukyugou?

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