The Syndicate

you probably only need to answer one of us

Epignosis wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Sloonei wrote:That's not true, you can scratch and claw your way back up my rainbow. I am confident, but I am not certain.
I have no intention of scratching or clawing my way up a rainbow.
Will you do anything at all?
I suppose, but I'm not particularly motivated.
What is causing this lack of motivation?
My spreadsheet and the fact that I am almost sure I made an erroneous assumption that I didn't catch. Things aren't looking too swell. If I get lynched, you won't lynch a cop, but I'm not kicking up any fuss.

What was your erroneous assumption? Can you describe the state of this spreadsheet of yours? I've heard nothing about it before now.

Epignosis wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Sloonei wrote:That's not true, you can scratch and claw your way back up my rainbow. I am confident, but I am not certain.
I have no intention of scratching or clawing my way up a rainbow.
Will you do anything at all?
I suppose, but I'm not particularly motivated.

What is causing this lack of motivation?

chaindeath wrote:Sloonie, chaindeath doesn't think that Nero could be presenting this case as a townie genuinely.

Why not?

Epignosis wrote:
Sloonei wrote:That's not true, you can scratch and claw your way back up my rainbow. I am confident, but I am not certain.
I have no intention of scratching or clawing my way up a rainbow.

Will you do anything at all?

That's not true, you can scratch and claw your way back up my rainbow. I am confident, but I am not certain.

chaindeath, I see the link you are making but I think those circumstances are different from his vote for you today. In the post you bring up, he is deferring to Scotty because he said things that Nero liked. In his vote today he seemed to be appealing to the Prisoner's input for absolutely no reason other than to give the appearance that he's putting thought into his vote, when it seems like he had made up his mind long before the day even started.

My question for you is whether or not you can see Nero's suspicion of you being genuine and coming from the perspective of a townie? I am not asking if you think this is the case, I am asking if you can conceive of it being the case at all.

Hey chaindeath, what's up?

But why was Epi's badness a foregone conclusion to you?

Prisoner 509378 wrote:
Sloonei wrote:I am predisposed to sympathize with Nero's caution in that post, but I understand your point. I have not been viewing Nero's post so strongly and I am inclined to agree with Soneji's take on it. Nero could have just been saying that we should be careful about those things. He was not necessarily saying that they would happen, just that they're possibilities. A townie should be conscious of these possibilities.
That said my mind is by no means made up on this matter.
I think I have a way to convey why his comment struck me as unnatural. When you say that "a townie should be conscious of these possibilities", I don't necessarily disagree -- but I want to you to ask yourself where your mind is when you're pursuing the lynch of a suspect you genuinely have without objective confirmation of that player truly being a baddie (like an ID or something). Are you worried about other players bussing/saving your suspect (keep in mind that at this point, the tally largely favors your suspect being lynched), or are you worried about ensuring your work was in your town's best interests? I think a townie, in a natural state, sees a tally that favors his/her preferred lynch, will say to themselves something like "okay, here we go. I think we've done this correctly, and I hope it works out." Then after the lynch is finalized and the baddie role is confirmed, that townie is able to expand their mindset to encompass more complex dynamics -- like "who attempted to save my suspect? Who might have bussed my suspect?"

Nero brought that concern into the thread as a foregone conclusion well before any lynch had been finalized, like it was his desire to lock the tally on Epignosis and create an unfavorable circumstance for a wide breadth of possible voting activity after his post. This implies an extreme degree of confidence that Epignosis is going to flip cop -- I'd argue more confidence than even you have in that truth right now. Ask yourself, if in this Day 11, a larger wagon mounted on Epignosis, what your immediate concerns would be, and what you would post in this thread.

Your answer may differ from mine, I don't know.

I get this. I can understand the suspicion and I want Nero to respond if he can.
It also strengthens my suspicion of Epi in a way as well, but I think everything is doing that this point. I am confident he's bad.

Sox go down 1, 2, 3 their first inning of the season. It's all over.

Okay Nero, the thing I didn't like about your chaindeath vote and the way you brought up the Prisoner's exercise in framing it was that you seemed to have your mind made up on where your vote was going to go before any of this got started, but you still gave the appearance of doing your homework before placing it on chaindeath.

Nerolunar wrote:
Prisoner 509378 wrote:Doing this again, but this time I will make no comments about what I think is likely or unlikely. You guys tell me.

Supposing the innocence of Sloonei and Turnip Head...

chaindeath

Spoiler: show
If chaindeath and Elohcin are town, cops are:
EPIGNOSIS
NEROLUNAR
SONEJI

If chaindeath and Epignosis are town, cops are:
ELOHCIN
NEROLUNAR
SONEJI

If chaindeath and Nerolunar are town, cops are:
ELOHCIN
EPIGNOSIS
SONEJI

If chaindeath and Soneji are town, cops are:
ELOHCIN
EPIGNOSIS
NEROLUNAR
Elohcin

Spoiler: show
If Elohcin and chaindeath are town, cops are:
Epignosis
Nerolunar
Soneji

If Elohcin and Epignosis are town, cops are:
chaindeath
Nerolunar
Soneji

If Elohcin and Nerolunar are town, cops are:
chaindeath
Epignosis
Soneji

If Elohcin and Soneji are town, cops are:
chaindeath
Epignosis
Nerolunar
Epignosis

Spoiler: show
If Epignosis and chaindeath are town, cops are:
Elohcin
Nerolunar
Soneji

If Epignosis and Elohcin are town, cops are:
chaindeath
Nerolunar
Soneji

If Epignosis and Nerolunar are town, cops are:
chaindeath
Elohcin
Soneji

If Epignosis and Soneji are town, cops are:
chaindeath
Epignosis
Nerolunar
Nerolunar

Spoiler: show
If Nerolunar and chaindeath are town, cops are:
Elohcin
Epignosis
Soneji

If Nerolunar and Elohcin are town, cops are:
chaindeath
Epignosis
Soneji

If Nerolunar and Epignosis are town, cops are:
chaindeath
Elohcin
Soneji

If Nerolunar and Soneji are town, cops are:
chaindeath
Elohcin
Epignosis
Soneji

Spoiler: show
If Soneji and chaindeath are town, cops are:
Elohcin
Epignosis
Nerolunar

If Soneji and Elohcin are town, cops are:
chaindeath
Epignosis
Nerolunar

If Soneji and Epignosis are town, cops are:
chaindeath
Elohcin
Nerolunar

If Soneji and Nerolunar are town, cops are:
chaindeath
Elohcin
Epignosis
Okay its the same.

Are anyone ready for a Chaindeath lynch now?

What I really want to ask if why did you feel the need to reference this post before putting your vote on chaindeath? It's not like you were coming up with a new suspicion. No new information is being brought to light by you doing this, but you did it anyway. You've been suspicious of chaindeath all game, and you're voting for him right now despite the apparent support in the poll for Epignosis, who is also on your suspect list. Why chaindeath and not Epignosis, and why did you need to reference the prisoner's post?

I was one of the three townies. Brofists to llama and g-man.

Nerolunar wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
Nerolunar wrote:Tbh I dont even know what he means. I don´t know Wilgy that well either.
That was a reference to something earlier in the game, where Wilgy brought up someone's scum game from Zodiac (SVS or Epi himself, I think) as a point of reference for this game. Epi dismisses that that game can be used at all, since 9 of the 12 players in it were scum so it wasn't a real game ("Maphia" is our name for that on RYM, let's bring that over here).
Yeah okay, thanks.

I think the first few days of Zodiac can be relevant. People didn´t know what the hell was going on, at least my team didn´t.

Linki~

Yes, and that is what I said to Epi. I was only in that game for 1 day before he killed me, so I don't discount any of my reads in my time there.

In lieu of a big ISO post I'll continue posting small snippets of things that have me feeling suspicious of Epi. Here is the exchange I referenced earlier in this post where Epi's response to my comments seemed overly defensive:

Spoiler: show

Sloonei wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Sloonei wrote:Depending on how SVS responds to my earilier questions, my vote today seems like it will be coming down to her, Epignosis, or ika.
Why me?
You don't seem as aggressive as usual. It's disconcerting.
People have been saying that about me for the past several months.
I am referencing as far back as Rocky & Bullwinkle.

Epignosis wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Sloonei wrote:Depending on how SVS responds to my earilier questions, my vote today seems like it will be coming down to her, Epignosis, or ika.
Why me?
You don't seem as aggressive as usual. It's disconcerting.
People have been saying that about me for the past several months.
I would like to see some evidence for this. What recent mafia game did another player accuse you of being less aggressive?

Linki: Sloonei, I don't think you can use Rock and Bullwinkle as a reference point since it's still an ongoing game.
I really don't want to trudge through old games to find specific posts, but it's true.

There are multiple reasons I am not as aggressive as I was last year. In terms of time, I've been hosting for six months. I also have a new profitable hobby in fantasy NBA, which takes a great deal of time and research to stay profitable.

In terms of Mafia, though, I started trying to dial back as far back as Death Note, when I was almost certain FZ. was bad and would not relent in hunting her down. It was a terrible blow when I realized how much time and effort I wasted contributing to my own loss. That made me begin to reevaluate my approach.

One big thing for me recently was Lost Again, in which I couldn't imagine Bullzeye being bad and argued against his lynch. S~V~S successfully got him lynched and won us the game. If I had my way, we would have Lost. Again.

Another major reason I'll just mention, without going into it, is that our site is becoming too confrontational for some people, and I'm trying to make a conscious effort to avoid contributing to that. I know I'm not the only one.

If I get lynched because I'm not being aggressive, oh well.

Epi went to considerable effort to bring up past games and developments to explain why he might not appear as himself, but a lot of the things he references predate me coming to the Syndicate, and like I said, I was drawing reference from a game that ran concurrently with this one (Rocky & Bullwinkle), so none of what he says even applies, really. I am not used to Epi being so ready with reasons to explain a point of suspicion against him. When he's town, I've always seen him as a player who is very confident and thus doens't often need to defend himself the way he does here. Which makes me think perhaps he did feel the need to do so in this game, because the suspicion was legitimate.

I have been trying to start my Epignosis ISO for nearly an hour, and now we're 30 minutes away from the first pitch of the only baseball season that really matters. This thing is never getting done.

Prisoner 509378 wrote:
Sloonei wrote:I am not sure I understand what you find so suspicious about Nero's Day 10 behavior, though. I read Nero's strong caution as consistent with his general play this game and more believable than a lot of Epi's behavior. I don't disagree with him when he says that bus attempts or lynch saves are possibilities in a situation like the one we were in yesterday.
The caution he expressed left room for only two scenarios: epi gets bussed or Epi gets saved. Both of them imply by default that Epi is bad. This appears calculated in that Epi cannot win, and any vote movement, no matter what can be associated with one of those two scenarios. He put everyone who had not voted already, and frankly those who had, in a lose-lose position. It's quite like what Epi pulled himself.

Both of those posts were instant b/s to me. Instant. And each player responded to them in a way that exposed the logical flaws. I agreed strongly with Epi's response to Nero's caution. I agreed strongly with Nero's response to Epi's chaindeath ultimatum.

They could easily both be full of crap.

I am predisposed to sympathize with Nero's caution in that post, but I understand your point. I have not been viewing Nero's post so strongly and I am inclined to agree with Soneji's take on it. Nero could have just been saying that we should be careful about those things. He was not necessarily saying that they would happen, just that they're possibilities. A townie should be conscious of these possibilities.
That said my mind is by no means made up on this matter.

Rainbow colored suspicions:
Nerolunar

Epignosis

I am feeling especially skeptical of Nero all of a sudden, but Epi is still comfortably ahead of everyone else.

Nerolunar wrote:Tbh I dont even know what he means. I don´t know Wilgy that well either.

That was a reference to something earlier in the game, where Wilgy brought up someone's scum game from Zodiac (SVS or Epi himself, I think) as a point of reference for this game. Epi dismisses that that game can be used at all, since 9 of the 12 players in it were scum so it wasn't a real game ("Maphia" is our name for that on RYM, let's bring that over here).

Another thing that's not really part of my main suspicion but I feel is worth highlighting:

One of Epi's earliest actions in the game was to call me his first (or one of his first) suspects because I... Expressed some doubts about Mongoose, confirmed scum.

Epignosis wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
Mongoose wrote:
agleaminranks wrote:
Epignosis wrote:I'm taking my vote off Long Con. I wouldn't want anyone to think that I suspect him.

agleaminranks, come say something.
Hiii, I'm trying to catch up on the posts so far. I didn't get a chance to read through it yet because I just started my new job today as an afterschool math and physics tutor. I'll have something solid to go on in the next few hours hopefully~

Oh wow, imagine seeing you in these parts!

In other news, I think it's transcendent that we are having the Voting a Non-Participant discussion again, and on my first day back!. Historically, I am very fond of this tactic (that is, in the absence of anything meatier -we've certainly had meat in the room on day 1, so to speak).
This post just caught my eye. I acknowledge that Mongoose has expressed some pretty legitimate reasons to not be active thus far, but when a player goes out of their way to express both of the thoughts expressed in the bottom paragraph, and then doesn't provide the thread with any meat herself, I can't help but see it as a player who is potentially trying to fluff up their own posts by spouting pro-town sentiments without actually contributing anything to the townie cause. Or the family cause. or whatever.
Putting my vote on Mongoose and then passing out.
Ooh. Now I have a reason to vote for somebody.

Someone ask me why Sloonei is bad.

Epignosis wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Enrique wrote:whys sloonei bad mr nosis
Mongoose does what Sloonei accused her of. All the time. And I have missed Mongoose something fierce.
Never have I ever played in a game with Mongoose.
I know. She's a peach.

I'm going to bed. I'll move my vote off you then if I'm satisfied with your apology for suspecting Mongoose.

In the thread's present climate these posts feel even less genuine than they did before. I dismissed it as Epi being Epi earlier, but these posts always resonated unusually for me. The tone of the first post where he starts to accuse me does not match his "I know/waiting for an apology" response at the end. Considering that Epi had already placed at least one vote and had a good number of heavy gameplay posts before this, that he names this as his first "reason to vote for somebody", but then immediately backs down from that stance. He had already voted for Enrique, suggesting a reason, and yet this is his first real reason, but he bases it on nothing. It strikes me as insincere.

The first post that caught my eye when I opened Epi's post history, from Day 1 or 2 where he dismisses my entire town read on Nero because I referenced Zodiac in the post:

Spoiler: show

Epignosis wrote:
Sloonei wrote:Reasons I think Nero is town:
Nerolunar wrote:
ika wrote:
Sloonei wrote:What is the point of asking silverworlf, or any player at all, if they are town? Also if silverwolf is the player you feel you can read the best, why are you focusing so much on her? Shouldn't you work on the players you can't read so well?
Reactoins, reads, what they say. I mean theres like endless reasons to ask it in general. To undertsand ym you first need to knwo i need a person i can talk to and trust. silver is the only person here i knwo and i can read acurately. So if shes scum i push her hard to get her lynched. If shes town we have the ultimate syagery and can decimate scums.

Players i cant read so well (aka everyone else) im not trying to sort on a day 1 phase. it would be more around mid/late day 2/day 3 where i try to do so
What are you going to do if Silverwolf appears to you as town? Who are you going to vote for today if you don´t have any reads?

@ Matt I agree that is strange. But is it alignment indicative? I don´t think so.
In the one other game I played with him (Zodiac) he was bad (and I know everyone but me, llama, and G-man was bad in that game, but still!) and I noticed on Day 1 Nero was just hopping on board with a lot of pre-existing cases and didn't really appear to be trying to figure things out. This post here reads as a genuine Thought Process to me. He's asking questions and getting involved. Ditto on this follow up post where he puts a vote on ika. He has a series of posts focusing on ika/silverwolf, and I have no trouble reading these posts as a series of progressing thoughts about the two of them as he asks questions and gets answers. I can see his thought process unfolding and it makes sense.

He also has a few other posts where he points out things that he find suspicious, but doesn't go overboard on them. He doesn't seem too hasty to name a suspect, and is letting the game come to him at a natural pace. I like that, it indicates to me, again, that his thought process is a natural and honest one.
Examples: here, here, here.

He hasn't posted the most content in the thread, but Nero has struck me as one of the most consistent and agreeable players in the thread so far this game. I haven't seen any big cases made against him, but I don't really understand why there would be one. If someone's got a case, please share it.
It amazes me that you can have that kind of read on Nerolunar based on Zodiac. You have Wligy levels of perception.

It seemed relevant. What do we all think?

ISO incoming

I am not sure I understand what you find so suspicious about Nero's Day 10 behavior, though. I read Nero's strong caution as consistent with his general play this game and more believable than a lot of Epi's behavior. I don't disagree with him when he says that bus attempts or lynch saves are possibilities in a situation like the one we were in yesterday.

Prisoner 509378 wrote:Hey Sloonei, do you want to resolve to lynch one of these real suspects (Nero/Epi) and not settle for a less substantive weenie lynch (chain/Eloh)?

Pending Turnip's perspective.

Yes. There's a reason I haven't moved my vote, even as a precaution.

Prisoner 509378 wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
Prisoner 509378 wrote:I mean seriously, Nero's worst post of Day 10 and maybe the game (cautioning against bussers and savers of Epi) was about Epi. Epi's worst post of Day 10 (putting Nero in a lose-lose scenario with his chaindeath "test") was about Nero.
I don't think it's impossible that the cops would have been attempting to put some distance between themselves on Day 10. We were nearly assured to catch one of them, so it could be a viable strategy for two of them to want to appear as unconnected as possible.
Yes, that's what is on my mind. I don't see townie investigation/interrogation in Epi's attacks on Nero, they appear calculated. I don't see townie caution in Nero's treatment of the Epi wagon, I see calculation.

Neither of them gave the other a chance. And that makes me very wary of a chaindeath lynch. They're both eager to do that one.

Calculated is a word I should have used in my explanation of Epi just now. I am in complete agreement. All of his moves feel calculated, and I don't like it.

Prisoner 509378 wrote:The thing that concerns me most about Epi is that the progression of night arrests points to him, and I'm not convinced it's just framing. I keep returning to the Silverwolf and Black Rock kills.

This was hardly even a consideration in my suspicion of him, but I welcome it into the fold as another piece of evidence pointing against him. My suspicion is based on the tone and content of his posts. I stated at the very beginning of this game, like two years ago, that he seemed to be lacking in something. I called it aggression at the time, but this was disputed. Epi responded to it with what I now see as an overly defensive explanation against my accusations. Epi was a little more forthcoming and less resistant to the accusation than he normally is, and this made me think that purpose It was because there is some truth to it. It's Day 11 and I still get this sense even from Epi's most recent content. He's still more on the sidelines than at the center of any of the case-building IMO. Like he's waiting for the thread to set itself up before he reacts to anything, instead of presenting his thoughts upfront and ahead of everything else, if that makes sense. I will try to explain this more succinctly in my ISO later.
He seems like he is planning his cases too carefully. Something I will be on the lookout for in my ISO is whether or not I feel like he's been too logical or mechanical in his thought process, as that is usually a sign that a person's reads are more manufactured and not so much from their gut.

Nerolunar wrote:
Sloonei wrote:What causes you to trust in that exercise right now, Nero?
My own alignment(Im town) + my trust of Soneji and distrust of Chaindeath and Epignosis. I think the scum team presented in the "If Nero and Soneji are town, then: ..." is the truth.

But this is just you restating your reads. Why are you referring to this exercise right now, and what do you like about it?

Prisoner 509378 wrote:I mean seriously, Nero's worst post of Day 10 and maybe the game (cautioning against bussers and savers of Epi) was about Epi. Epi's worst post of Day 10 (putting Nero in a lose-lose scenario with his chaindeath "test") was about Nero.

I don't think it's impossible that the cops would have been attempting to put some distance between themselves on Day 10. We were nearly assured to catch one of them, so it could be a viable strategy for two of them to want to appear as unconnected as possible.

Prisoner 509378 wrote:I think we should be willing to consider a universe in which both Epi and Nero are town. There's nothing logically challenging about an Elohcin, chaindeath, Soneji cop team.

I agree, Turnip 's opinion is crucial right now.

Sloonei, it might help if you build a full case of the things that sell you on Epi as a cop. Remember that one day ago I was willing to take him out, so I can be sold here. I'm primarily troubled by the problem that both of them are suspicious. I am also even giving a lot of thought to Epi and Nero being cops together, because they were both nonsense throughout Day 10.

I plan to do this at some point this afternoon.

What causes you to trust in that exercise right now, Nero?

My two town reads of the 5 uncertain players share their suspects with me, and this gives me pause. Turnip Head, wherever you are, any thoughts you can share would be my favorite thing in the world right now.

That is also what my 4 person cop team looked like. Are you at all worried that Soneji is perhaps juwt trying to appear agreeable so that he can buddy you and/or me?

If you have time, could you pull out some quotes that demonstrate Soneji's thought processes being similar to yours?

I broke it down to you two because you're the ones the prisoner and I don't agree with. I think you are good ans Epi is bad, and he thinks Epi is good and you are bad. What do you think of Epi?

Great, now the thread is haunted.

I wish someone would say something.

I am not working and will be snowed in all day tomorrow, so I can't imagine I'll do anything other than mafia. And watching baseball.

I also went back to look at Nero's previous two (scum) games on the Syndicate (Arkham and Zodiac) and feel like he's expressed himself a lot more confidently and consistently in this game than in either of those. But one would have to assume that his scum game would change with three consecutive performances, so I'm not sure how much weight I put into that.

TURNIP HEAD! Help us. Who should we lynch: Epi or Nero?

I simply do not agree with you on Nero. And you seem to not agree with me on Epi. We agree on chaindeath. Elohcin is also my least confident cop read because there isn't any content there. We'd be better off if Serge had just stayed in the game.

Prisoner, GTH you have to pick one person to vote for today, who do you choose?

I'll wait for Nero to respond to that before I say anything.

Prisoner 509378 wrote:
Sloonei wrote:Something that stands out to me in the posts highlighted by the Prisoner above, and in Nerolunar's post history all game long, is his willingness to change his mind. I think scum players can sometimes tend to be more stubborn, to pick a couple of false targets to focus on and stick with them as long as they are able. Nerolunar has been openly changing his stance on people all game long, and to me this progression looks very natural. He's had very little trouble, to my eye, articulating his thoughts and providing reasons to account for his changes of mind. That is to say, I find the progression of his thoughts throughout this game to be believable. There are a few pings here and there but on the whole his game looks too relaxed and not calculated enough for me to think he's a bad guy. I've only read 3 of the 4 pages of his post history so far, but at the moment this is how I'm feeling.

dem linkis.
Non-concurrence. I thought he was the worst-looking player.

why?

Something that stands out to me in the posts highlighted by the Prisoner above, and in Nerolunar's post history all game long, is his willingness to change his mind. I think scum players can sometimes tend to be more stubborn, to pick a couple of false targets to focus on and stick with them as long as they are able. Nerolunar has been openly changing his stance on people all game long, and to me this progression looks very natural. He's had very little trouble, to my eye, articulating his thoughts and providing reasons to account for his changes of mind. That is to say, I find the progression of his thoughts throughout this game to be believable. There are a few pings here and there but on the whole his game looks too relaxed and not calculated enough for me to think he's a bad guy. I've only read 3 of the 4 pages of his post history so far, but at the moment this is how I'm feeling.

dem linkis.

you son of a bitch!

Prisoner 509378 wrote:
Sloonei wrote:Just read back through Soneji to see who would be his least likely teammates in the event that he's a cop, and came out of it feeling confident that he's my strongest town read in the mystery pile.
Rank the likelihood of each other player being his cop team mate.

lnink: agreed, I'm good with that.

I'll do this after I'm done double checking Nerolunar.

Prisoner 509378 wrote:I honestly think it's a bad idea to pile votes onto anyone right now, and I would encourage you to move yours Sloonei. That doesn't mean I'm saying we can't lynch Epi, but we have non-participants and barely-participants who are just going to join the pile and never return to the thread. The game might hinge on their laziness.

Fair point. If I move my vote I will put it on you because that's the safest place I can think to put it.

Just read back through Soneji to see who would be his least likely teammates in the event that he's a cop, and came out of it feeling confident that he's my strongest town read in the mystery pile.

ALSO the fact the game is still happening confirms that the undercover cop is dead. If not then it's 3 civs vs 4 cops vs 1 prisoner. There are 4 of us civs and 1 prisoner vs. 3 cops.
I think Boomslang was the undercover cop because if he was town then like what the hell?

Again inclined to say that chaindeath's response looks the worst.

linki: OH YEAH!? i kind of agree. Neither of them look peachy there.

Prisoner 509378
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