The Syndicate

Golden wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:The item voted on Night 2 is a corrupted jury.
That is not the name of the thing I got, and doesn't even seem like a very likely pseudonym for the same thing. It doesn't really relate at all.

I missed voting for someone on it because I didn't think to set that vote up in advance.

Golden does not believe the item he received was the result of the Night 2 voting. This would suggest he received something from an inventor, or is making it all up.
Long Con is claiming to have gifted me a gun on Night 2. This suggests he is an inventor, but not the one who gifted an item to Golden.

We have no public evidence of any other items being delivered at any other point in the game, except by the travel mechanic.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Shoot Jack, IMO.

Jack, Long Con, and Soneji are my final 3.

Golden wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
Golden wrote:
Sloonei wrote:I do not care about Golden's response to the Marmot redirection conversation. I am more interested in the item he claims to have received right now.
There is no value in the town knowing that. In fact, negative value.
You can't even confirm or deny if it has the same name as the item we voted on that night?
I can if you can find for me the name of the item we voted on that night. I can't find it.

Do you think it would be harmful for you to reveal the name of the item right now?

Golden wrote:Lynch me if you must, but I will not be bullied into revealing any information I do not think it's wise to give. End of story.

People who want to force me into saying things that I have made it abundantly clear I will not share should be seen with suspicion, in my opinion. It is not hard to think of good reasons why I would hold back information in the towns interests, I'm telling you that's what I'm doing. Believe it or don't believe it, whatever, but you aren't getting me to budge.

Remind me again what you have revealed about your role and targets.

Soneji wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
Soneji wrote:
Sloonei wrote:hey soneji why shouldn't I shoot you?
Because I'm town.
Who does town soneji propose I shoot instead? Who did you vote for on Night 2?
I voted for you N2.

I would be inclined to say Fredwood but no one shares said suspicion. Shoot Golden.

Why'd you vote for me?

Golden wrote:
Sloonei wrote:I do not care about Golden's response to the Marmot redirection conversation. I am more interested in the item he claims to have received right now.
There is no value in the town knowing that. In fact, negative value.

You can't even confirm or deny if it has the same name as the item we voted on that night?

Soneji wrote:
Sloonei wrote:hey soneji why shouldn't I shoot you?
Because I'm town.

Who does town soneji propose I shoot instead? Who did you vote for on Night 2?

I do not care about Golden's response to the Marmot redirection conversation. I am more interested in the item he claims to have received right now.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
Jackofhearts2005 wrote:Why would Golden, who missed our day 2 scum lynch get the item while Sloonei and Speedchuck, who bagged our scummer at the last second or Nutella, who basically started the train on Marmot, did not?

I all sorts of have problems with the idea that Golden won that vote. The only way that happens is if the mafia is allowed to vote and voted for one of their own to get the item.

Way too convenient for Long Con, too.
If they are both scum, do you think they would link themselves together so strongly in the thread today? Especially given the possibility that I could shoot either one of them at any time to blow the whole thing up in their faces?
WIFOM.

How ballsy is too ballsy before you think a player like Golden wouldn't do a thing as scum? I've never played with scum Golden.

So I'm doing what I always do. Suppose LC and Golden are scum. Suppose they are town.

In which situation do the pieces all fit together?

If they're scum, they're taking a huge risk. If they're town....why did Golden get the night 2 item? Wouldn't think a single townie would vote for him after the day 2 we had.

Who did you vote for Night 2?

hey soneji why shouldn't I shoot you?

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:Why would Golden, who missed our day 2 scum lynch get the item while Sloonei and Speedchuck, who bagged our scummer at the last second or Nutella, who basically started the train on Marmot, did not?

I all sorts of have problems with the idea that Golden won that vote. The only way that happens is if the mafia is allowed to vote and voted for one of their own to get the item.

Way too convenient for Long Con, too.

If they are both scum, do you think they would link themselves together so strongly in the thread today? Especially given the possibility that I could shoot either one of them at any time to blow the whole thing up in their faces?

I'm shooting this thing soon. Anyone got some last minute pleas or suggestions?

Golden, did the item you received night 2 have the same name as the one we all voted on that night?

But also LC's role claim doesn't really strike me as all that detailed. From the perspective that he is scum, he sees that a player with a gun is threatening to shoot him. "But I gave you the gun!" he says, and I point it elsewhere. That's the end of it.

Golden wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
speedchuck wrote:
Sloonei wrote:The biggest and most obvious hang up with Long Con's role claim is that we know that items are being passed out based on our travel destinations. I am uncertain that I believe we have a town inventor who is also giving out items along with this built-in game mechanic. It's not impossible, but I'm not sure how likely it is either. It does not help that LC claims to have given out no other items in the game, and that I am having a hard time justifying him giving me the gun of all people.
But at the same time, he knows what night you got it.

Did you hint at it enough for him to guess confidently?
I don't recall everything I've said about it today. I can easily go back and double check, but I never mentioned anything about it until today.

But we also had no item to vote on last night, and there would have been no reason for anyone to vote to give Sorsha an item on Night 1. Night 2 is the only night that makes sense for me to receive anything.
One thing I'd never expect of Long Con is for him to consider a fake claim in that much detail.

Hey, LC, did you give anyone anything else at any time?

All of us Syndicate regulars are in uncharted waters with regards to role claims. I don't know what to expect from anyone.

speedchuck wrote:
Sloonei wrote:The biggest and most obvious hang up with Long Con's role claim is that we know that items are being passed out based on our travel destinations. I am uncertain that I believe we have a town inventor who is also giving out items along with this built-in game mechanic. It's not impossible, but I'm not sure how likely it is either. It does not help that LC claims to have given out no other items in the game, and that I am having a hard time justifying him giving me the gun of all people.
But at the same time, he knows what night you got it.

Did you hint at it enough for him to guess confidently?

I don't recall everything I've said about it today. I can easily go back and double check, but I never mentioned anything about it until today.

But we also had no item to vote on last night, and there would have been no reason for anyone to vote to give Sorsha an item on Night 1. Night 2 is the only night that makes sense for me to receive anything.

I leave for work in 2 hours. I'd like to shoot before then to give myself time to cast a good vote as well.

The biggest and most obvious hang up with Long Con's role claim is that we know that items are being passed out based on our travel destinations. I am uncertain that I believe we have a town inventor who is also giving out items along with this built-in game mechanic. It's not impossible, but I'm not sure how likely it is either. It does not help that LC claims to have given out no other items in the game, and that I am having a hard time justifying him giving me the gun of all people.

Golden, do you know anything about the specific items in each area on the map?

These two posts from Day 3 are the most relevant, I think, when trying to asses whether or not Long Con would conceivably have given me a gun during night 2. He had very little to say about my spot in the game the first two days (null on sorsha, I came in late) but placed a relatively early vote on Metalmarsh on Day 2. He then came in saying Day 3 that he'd be worried about people who were pushing for marmot to be town in less extreme terms than INH. I had been in that camp for a little while prior to my vote, but I think my vote could have believably cancelled that out in Long Con's mind.

The second post I linked to above is a big long catch-up style post. He prods me with a couple of questions regarding my treatment of Dyslexicon around the deadline on Day 2. I don't get strong interrogative vibes from the questions, but they did seem to contain a hint of skepticism. I wouldn't say it's strong enough to rule out the possibility that he believed in my towniness enough to gift me with a gun Night 2.

However, his apparent obliviousness as to what happened at the end of the day and relative silence about me prior to Night 2 makes it a little questionable that he would choose to gift me a gun that night as his one and only night action for the game thus far.

Long Con wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
Long Con wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
Long Con wrote:EBWOP: I mean Sloonei. Damn name similarities.
Have you given an answer about your nights 1 & 3 targets?
No. I have no such targets.
So your only night action has been to give me a gun on Night 2?
Correct.

Are you willing to share any more information about your role?

Long Con wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
Long Con wrote:EBWOP: I mean Sloonei. Damn name similarities.
Have you given an answer about your nights 1 & 3 targets?
No. I have no such targets.

So your only night action has been to give me a gun on Night 2?

speedchuck wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
speedchuck wrote:
Sloonei wrote:It does not seem that anybody in the game has a town read on Soneji.
Bussing or mafia waiting for a lynch train to start?
I'm not sure I understand this question.
Do you think it's more likely that mafia are throwing their teammate Soneji under a bus since Soneji has provided little value and a lot of suspicion?

Or do you think that Soneji is town, hasn't been around, and mafia are continuing to remind us of how much we suspect them while waiting for us to "cast the first stone", so to speak?

I could see both, but given that several town reads (including one confirmed town) have expressed some degree of suspicion against him, I do not fear scum manipulation too much here. My own read of him turned up very little that was positive.

I would prefer to shoot a widely suspected player like Soneji and leave the more contested options to be settled via lynch. That way we have votes and conversation to analyze tomorrow.

speedchuck wrote:
Sloonei wrote:It does not seem that anybody in the game has a town read on Soneji.
Bussing or mafia waiting for a lynch train to start?

I'm not sure I understand this question.

It does not seem that anybody in the game has a town read on Soneji.

Golden wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
Golden wrote:
Jackofhearts2005 wrote:I want Golden's night results.

Claiming watcher puts a target on your back. Doing so without bringing forward good information is unnecessary.

I can understand some hesitancy to reveal night information due to the possibility of outing say, the doctor, but I think that ship has sailed.

We already ran into trouble with Golden misinterpreting his information (thinking Marmot had busdriver JJJ and Fred). I wouldn't be surprised (assuming Golden is town) if there was a useful gem of information for the town in those results.
Bullshit. We didn't run into any trouble with me misinterpreting information. I made the claim specifically because I was trying to draw out whether or not jay was bad (I mean, it followed from my claim that I was misdirected). Then I gave accurate information that I did not misinterpret.

I have been very clear that I saw no one but me in my watching results the last two nights. What 'useful gem of information' do you think is in there? Because I can only think of one, and that is knowing who I've targeted, and I think that's of more use to scum than town.
Why are you alive? Why did you not watch the publicly exposed vigilante and cop the last two nights?
These questions seem oddly contradictory.

You're right. But on the one hand, you claim to be an unlimited-shot watcher (I think) while all the other roles in the game seem somehow limited, and you're also apparently holding the map, yet you've gone untouched by the mafia.

On the other hand we've had two publicly outed town power roles who you've failed to watch over at night. Two separate possible angles to doubt the validity of your claim.

Strawhenge wrote:I've been meaning to ask, but refresh me on the meaning of POE.

He was a time-traveling alcoholic who wrote horror stories.

juliets wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:As the day wears on I am find myself returning/regressing to my suspicion of JOH too. If I were to make a bulleted list of scummy things said/done by every player, his list would be the longest.
Do you feel like only one of JOH or Quin is bad?

linki

My feeling from the beginning of the day was that exactly one of those two was bad. I've wavered a bit on that, but I still feel it a little bit. I would pick Jack as the bad one right now.

Long Con wrote:EBWOP: I mean Sloonei. Damn name similarities.

Have you given an answer about your nights 1 & 3 targets?

I've read Soneji's and Fredwood's posts. Fredwood looks good. Soneji looks like a big shrug. I agree with Jay that his spinning of a suspicion against Fredwood has the potential of a scum player pursuing a low hanging fruit case while avoiding heavier scrutiny by getting involved in any of the more central issues. There are a lot of things which Soneji has said absolutely nothing about in this game. He appears to have been active on Day 1 but then fell behind. I don't fault him for that, but it provides an uninspiring history of activity in this game.

I also felt like his treatment of Dyslexicon on Day 1 was first angling to suspect him, and then later a begrudging acceptance that the slip itself was not suspicious while refusing to relinquish his general suspicion against Dizzy. I did not like it.

Fredwood looks like a townie who is trying to get his feet under him in a foreign environment.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Sloonei wrote:Why is Soneji your top POE suspect?
I could come up with something to say in defense of every player except for him. I have no idea what he's done in this game that should indicate him to be a civilian.

Has he done anything (beyond the one point you just mentioned) that indicates he is scum?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
Soneji wrote:[VOTE: ] aubergine[VOTE:

Out of all the people I've had some suspicion on today, this one is the strongest. I had some doubts about culture clash but the more I see from Silver Lantern and JoH, the less his posts are excusable. They both have been in the thick of things, not using their unfamiliarity with the posters/style here to excuse their activity/opinions. posted his opinion on the Dys situation to then turn around and say his opinion should be ignored in favor of others. He posted that seeming scummy is a town method of surviving longer where he is from, which I can't see much of a town motivation for posting here. He at that point could tell that is not the standard here nor was there any suspicion on him at the time, so mentioning it could only ever serve as a preliminary defense for any future scum behavior from him or SL/JoH's. Preemptive defenses are near the top of my scumtell list.

Could still be culture clash but I'm betting my money that it is attempting to abuse culture clash to gain an edge.] aubergine
[VOTE: This is an intriguing post in the universe where Soneji and Fredwood are scum together.] aubergine
[VOTE:

I think it looks like Soneji trying to smear a guy for reasons that are unfair -- reading Fredwood as scum because he isn't behaving the same way as JOH or SL isn't about "culture clash" unless you expect everyone from a given culture to be clones.] aubergine

[VOTE: Why is Soneji your top POE suspect?] aubergine

Golden wrote:
Jackofhearts2005 wrote:I want Golden's night results.

Claiming watcher puts a target on your back. Doing so without bringing forward good information is unnecessary.

I can understand some hesitancy to reveal night information due to the possibility of outing say, the doctor, but I think that ship has sailed.

We already ran into trouble with Golden misinterpreting his information (thinking Marmot had busdriver JJJ and Fred). I wouldn't be surprised (assuming Golden is town) if there was a useful gem of information for the town in those results.
Bullshit. We didn't run into any trouble with me misinterpreting information. I made the claim specifically because I was trying to draw out whether or not jay was bad (I mean, it followed from my claim that I was misdirected). Then I gave accurate information that I did not misinterpret.

I have been very clear that I saw no one but me in my watching results the last two nights. What 'useful gem of information' do you think is in there? Because I can only think of one, and that is knowing who I've targeted, and I think that's of more use to scum than town.

Why are you alive? Why did you not watch the publicly exposed vigilante and cop the last two nights?

Soneji wrote:[VOTE: ] aubergine[VOTE:

Out of all the people I've had some suspicion on today, this one is the strongest. I had some doubts about culture clash but the more I see from Silver Lantern and JoH, the less his posts are excusable. They both have been in the thick of things, not using their unfamiliarity with the posters/style here to excuse their activity/opinions. posted his opinion on the Dys situation to then turn around and say his opinion should be ignored in favor of others. He posted that seeming scummy is a town method of surviving longer where he is from, which I can't see much of a town motivation for posting here. He at that point could tell that is not the standard here nor was there any suspicion on him at the time, so mentioning it could only ever serve as a preliminary defense for any future scum behavior from him or SL/JoH's. Preemptive defenses are near the top of my scumtell list.

Could still be culture clash but I'm betting my money that it is attempting to abuse culture clash to gain an edge.] aubergine

[VOTE: This is an intriguing post in the universe where Soneji and Fredwood are scum together.] aubergine

The unfortunate situation for Scotty is that he's probably more useful to the town if he doesn't activate his ability (assuming he's telling the truth), given his time constraints this game. It's a good ole Catch 22.

Long Con wrote:Looking back, I noticed this post from you, Sloon:

Sloonei wrote:A note: When I've caught Scotty as scum before, it's been for contradictions and inconsistencies in his behavior. I don't typically view him doing weird things with his vote and playing loose as bad things. That is just Scotty being Scotty.
Would you classify Scotty's stump/target-proving claim as contradictory or inconsistent? Why or why not?

I don't think that I would describe it in those terms. It's shady on some level, but I think he's been consistent with the claim at least. His failure to deliver on verification opens the whole thing up to skepticism. I'm not willing to dismiss him as a suspect for claiming a role that he can't or won't prove, but he's not doing anything contradictory.

juliets wrote:So then for those who think Quin is civ, the dynamic would be he was blocked by the good role blocker and JJJ by the baddie role blocker?

Jay's claim is that he was hindered on Night 2, Quin's is on Night 3.

speedchuck wrote:Generally, where I come from at least, affecting another character counts as a target or a visit, no matter what it is.

I think I voted for Sloon on night 2. Corrupted Jury sounds exactly like a gun to me. :s

But I think sloon is town, and would be surprised if LC guessed the night with the confidence he had.

I don't know if it is a good idea to ask people for their Night 2 votes, but if we could confirm that I was the selected target for the item that night, I'd put Long Con back in my crosshairs.

Long Con wrote:Maybe sending an item isn't counted as "targeting" like protecting, killing, blocking, etc?

I highly doubt this.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Long Con wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Wait a minute.

I tracked LC on Night 2. He targeted nobody. Shenanigans.
No shenanigans here. Maybe you got redirected?
I don't think so. Specifically Long Con targeted nobody.

Sloonei has received a gun, and I believe him on that front. Someone will die in this day phase. Your claim corroborates his. I don't think you're both bad together. So that would imply I was somehow hindered -- more likely roleblocked. That could also work for Quin's failure.

If your night result was specifically worded as Long Con not targeting a player rather than you failing to receive a result, wouldn't that suggest you were not role blocked?

Maybe I could shoot Fredwood too. I know zilch about him, but he's not immune to suspicion.

Scotty, Golden, Soneji. My list of targets is amorphous.

Long Con wrote:
speedchuck wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
Long Con wrote:*facepalm* Yes, I do know. Night 2, by the way, JJJ.
Oh. Okay then. This is correct.
I reread the thread. Looks like LC was being sarcastic when he said "my mistake". Problem is, a gun being in the night vote is plausible.

Still, being confident enough to predict the night gives me good feelings, and this gift/inventor/whatever is not similar to other claims.
Feeling good about the LC.
My sarcastic abilities are outdone only by my psychic abilities.

What's the font color for psychic posts?

speedchuck wrote:BTW, just realized something.

Mafia has not been afraid AT ALL to try and murder the most dangerous claims. (Cop and Janitor Vig)
Why weren't they scared of a watcher visiting the obvious target?

That's a watcher with the map, mind you.

Long Con wrote:*facepalm* Yes, I do know. Night 2, by the way, JJJ.

Oh. Okay then. This is correct.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:When did you receive the gun, Sloonei?

I would like Long Con to answer this question for me.

juliets wrote:Fred, when you come on today and after you catch up would you give a set of reads please?

Also guys, just trying to put the pieces together, is a stump someone who doesn't talk or vote? And does it make sense that you would "activate" your stumpiness? I'm just totally unfamiliar with a role like this.

I can't help with the balance issues, I generally don't host and when I do, have help with balance.

As I understand it, once a stump activates their role, they can't vote or be nightkilled. They can talk all they want.

Long Con wrote:I'm sorry, did you get that gun from an item vote, Sloonei? My mistake.

I don't know. You tell me.

speedchuck wrote:Balance theory time.

Playerlist wrote: KILLERS
Silver Lantern - Town Janitor
sig - Town Leeroy

INFOROLES
Nutella - 1-shot Day public cop
Nachomamma - Town Scientist

JJJ - Town 3-shot Tracker
Golden - Watcher

REDIRECTORS
MetalMarsh89 - Mafia Busdriver

PROTECTORS
Quin - Odd-Night Doc
JackofHearts - Townie-visiting role
Sloonei - Bodyguard
juliets - Protective
Dyslexicon - Protective

??? WITH A REDIRECTOR MAYBE IN HERE AND ALSO A STUMP WHICH I NEVER KNEW WAS A ROLE AND I THOUGHT WAS A GAME MECHANIC
Fredwood - ???
Strawhenge - ???
Eloh - ???
Speedchuck - ???
DrWilgy - Town ???
Soneji - ???
Scotty - Stump

OTHER THING
LongCon - Inventor? Gun-Giver?

DIVINE
insertnamehere - 3rd Party Angel
Based on this, and the number being at 6-7 non-town (my guess based on similarly balanced games from my old forum):

1 non town in Marmot busdriver
1 non-town in INH Angel
2-3 non-town in the ???/stump group
1-3 non-town in the protective (townie-visiting) group (If it's wrong for me to group you in there, Jack, sorry. Best way I could put this together)
0 or 1 non-town in the Tracker/Watcher group.

There is no way that town has this many protectives. Though, since protective is a loose term, it could have anything to do with redirection and weakened roles. I could see three protective town roles in this case, I think.

Something to look at is the information roles. We had a cop, scientist, tracker, and watcher (though most were limited). I find myself doubting Golden's claim right now. Doesn't help that the claim involved an every-night watcher, which seems like power that would be reserved for the mafia team.
I've never seen a game with a tracker and a watcher on the same team, outside of one that I made myself. Everyone considered it overpowered. This is a CF, but still. Watching that.

Please, people. Give me your thoughts on where scum lie.

Definitely a scum or two in the ??? range. Scotty's prennially unverified stump claim has me scratching my chin and squinting my eyeballs. I have doubts about Long Con's sudden claim (why did he choose to give this gun to me of all people?), and still wouldn't be shocked if one of Quin/Jack is lying.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote:Mafia inventor/gift giver is not unheard of on the Realms but it is more often a town or occasionally third party role.

Assuming LC actually gave Sloonei that gun, what would you give the odds of his alignment being, Speedchuck? I want this question based solely on power claim, not LC's posts.

Assuming he actually gave this to me, I feel good about him. But I've seen no evidence that anyone else has been giftef any items by an inventor, and we also know that there is a general game mechanic which gives out items.

I like point about Golden. Maybe I'll shoot our cartographer.

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