The Syndicate

Let’s fill this now even though speedchuck is evil.

leetic wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:48 pm Well, I died way too early in that one, but good game! The way I handled that EoD was pretty terrible and I guess I'll have to learn for next time.

being the victim of a day 1 mislynch is the most frustrating thing that can happen in this game. sorry.

did you guys even mean to win this game?

These were the two moments that influenced my decision the most:

Spoiler: show

Long Con wrote: ↑Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:20 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:59 pm
Long Con wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:02 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:00 pm Turnip Head is town.
Oh.
Mr. LC, you had just got done ISOing the accused Turnip and then dropped a vote on his Head, only for Sloonei to shove this obnoxious town read back in your face. You barely reacted at all. What was this response?
It was exactly because I had just finished a bunch of work on Turnip Head. Like I said, every time I put effort into the game, it was instantly shit on. That's part of the reason I got a "screw this" attitude. I just spent an hour going through and analyzing Turnip Head's posts, and the only response is the most townread player saying "Turnip Head is town." What am I supposed to say? I just spent an hour saying what I had to say about Turnip Head. Repeat myself? I felt like a nerd who tried to be cool, but then one of the popular kids was like "Ha ha no."

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:11 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:03 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:58 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:55 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:53 pm I ranked all the players and then divided that into groups of 4 because that was roughly how I felt — there were no “huge gaps” in how townie I thought anyone was, no runaway towncore and no obvious scum. Coulda done it all in one running list but I wouldn’t have felt differently about it. It’s not like I type something and that determines what I think about each person
You said yesterday that speedchuck and long con were incompatible. Why?
I really thought it was FG. I changed my mind towards the end of the day (which is visible) when I saw how speed and LC interacted over my power role; it seemed clear that one was covering for the other.
But when I asked you why you thought it was funnygurl your answer was "I don't think it's Long Con."

"Why is it funnygurl?"
"Because it's not Long Con."
"Okay. Why is it not Long Con?"
"Because it's funnygurl."

yes I was hoping no one would notice that. Maybe I was being stubborn.

Long Con's explanation fits perfectly with his behavior and retroactively disarms me a bit. I felt a little bad for having made him feel that way.
Tony, on the other hand, appeared to be caught in a slip.

Long Con wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:49 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:45 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:40 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:35 pm
Long Con wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:33 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:32 pmEpi remains undefeated.
That's the part that hurt the most about all this.
I would be lying if I said this didn't factor into my determination over the last 48 hours.
As you were painstakingly trying to determine who had the better non scum claims at lylo it dawned on me that in that scenario looking for who is not the scum will benefit the scum as they have intentionally been playing to both look not scum and also to make a reducing number of players look scum. Should I find myself in those shoes again I will be lynching the player who simply looks least like a townie, not most like the scum. I think Jay summed it up well earlier when he basically reduced the scum to their sum parts on the basis of who was actually trying to game solve.

I don't envy the situation you were in but I learned that much from it so thanks.
Yeah, if I'd have cast my Day 4 vote at the end of Day 3, we'd have won this game. I should have stuck with that feeling, I guess. But even as this phase wore on I felt like LC's answers resonated more truthfully with me. He sold me at all the right moments.
It was fortunate that I was able to answer honestly to almost everything.

GOOD LORD though I almost ruined everything when I fake-claimed to have checked ts account for Assassin. I really checked funnygurl - which led to a successful Speedchuck kill, so I couldn't tell you that or it would have easily looked bad.

So I looked at ts account's role - Researcher - and it seemed safe to say he wasn't an Assassin. Then after I posted, I got a bad feeling, and looked up the character. Assassin. I went immediately into the chat and said "Sorry guys, I fucked up". Came back to the thread for Tony's "FALSE!"

The ironic thing was that I was right about ts account not being an Assassin for official game purposes.

ugh. My response to the role claims was backwards. I thought "speedchuck's role explains Tony's behavior" before I thought "Long Con's role pairs conveniently with speed's."

Sloonei wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:35 pm Every suspect I can come up with feels underwhelming. That could just mean that the bulk of our activity has been driven by civilians.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:40 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:35 pm
Long Con wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:33 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:32 pmEpi remains undefeated.
That's the part that hurt the most about all this.
I would be lying if I said this didn't factor into my determination over the last 48 hours.
As you were painstakingly trying to determine who had the better non scum claims at lylo it dawned on me that in that scenario looking for who is not the scum will benefit the scum as they have intentionally been playing to both look not scum and also to make a reducing number of players look scum. Should I find myself in those shoes again I will be lynching the player who simply looks least like a townie, not most like the scum. I think Jay summed it up well earlier when he basically reduced the scum to their sum parts on the basis of who was actually trying to game solve.

I don't envy the situation you were in but I learned that much from it so thanks.

Yeah, if I'd have cast my Day 4 vote at the end of Day 3, we'd have won this game. I should have stuck with that feeling, I guess. But even as this phase wore on I felt like LC's answers resonated more truthfully with me. He sold me at all the right moments.

Long Con wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:33 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:32 pmEpi remains undefeated.
That's the part that hurt the most about all this.

I would be lying if I said this didn't factor into my determination over the last 48 hours.

Turnip Head wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:26 pm This game is for LC's highlight reel, he was so sneaky

I'd heard the stories of vintage LC and observed it from the outside, but this was the first time I'd been personally victimized by it. It's an honor.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:25 pm Also fun to play with new people!

of course! [mention]Funnygurl555[/mention] [mention]ts account[/mention] you guys are great! Thank you for playing, let's do it again sometime.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:16 pm Idk, I think that “no claims but really it’s only no explicit claims” is pretty town sided in an open or semi-open setup where roles are publicly available. But stricter “no claims whatsoever” enforcement leads to more modkills, which isn’t particularly fun for anyone tbh.

So idk, mixed feelings but I usually prefer claims.

"No claims" works (or perhaps only used to work) better when the player base is all part of an insular community that is familiar and comfortable with the rule. It was the norm when I first arrived here, and I hardly recall there being any problems with it. People just knew how to avoid those gray areas. But as we've expanded and new styles have come in, it's clear that most folks don't play that way and often don't want to play that way. The gray area becomes a lot more gray and people wander into it without even realizing. That's nobody's fault and it shouldn't be received as a criticism of anyone anywhere. "No claims" does feel like a bit of a relic these days, but I still like the environment it offers.

But it's obviously much harder to enforce, and I think the best balance between the two is to allow roleclaiming, but to build in mechanics that deter people from doing it en masse. I'm hoping to explore those options in my next game.

Another thing that went into my decision today was the history between LC and Epi. The newer folks won't be aware of this, but there was once a time in Syndicate history where those two would always seem to have some significant back-and-forth every game no matter what their alignments. I was convinced that if they had been partners in this game, they would have been tempted to make some big bold play in the thread. Instead they were mostly subdued around each other. They threw me a change up.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:58 pm Yeah I’m pretty pro claiming. Imo a no claim game has to be pretty strict about softing or breadcrumbing to be fair, and that results in a lot of modkills that aren’t very fun.

At this point I'm not pro- or anti- either option. They are both appealing. I'm pro-variety, I guess.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:54 pm I hope everyone enjoyed the game! I know it was a bit non-standard, hopefully it was more fun than frustrating. If you guys liked this kind of thing I can run more of my experimental setups in the future.

The concentration of fun-to-frustration was about 100% fun and 0% frustration.

Any game that comes down to 2v1 lylo is excellent. This one was definitely unique with the midgame divine intervention. I loved it. Thank you, nanook.

what were jay and nutella's full roles?

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:16 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:16 pm Did funnygurl kill speedchuck with the apple? I at least want to feel good about that
Yep!

Apple kills were you shooting TH and FG shooting Chuck

Okay good. I can tell myself that we never would have made it to lylo without me in the first place.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:17 pm Is there a reason the thread keeps getting locked? Is this not where we post game?

Sometimes it does that if you’ve clicked the “lock” option in a post somewhere.

Did funnygurl kill speedchuck with the apple? I at least want to feel good about that

The gods and I all agreed about the team yesterday.

Long Con wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:06 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:04 pm butts. Sorry. Well played, Mr Con.

why the hell did you vote for yourself?
Risky gambit.

I'm glad it worked. It's been a while since I've lost to a genuine gambit like that.

Long Con wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:07 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:06 pm If anyone has questions about the setup, feel free to ask them!

One note: scum had the ability to decide ties. This was supposed to be in the OP, but I realized after D1 that I had overlooked putting it in there, so to best maintain the balance of the game it became a factional ability instead.
Note: I did not know about this when I self-voted.

oh

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:06 pm If anyone has questions about the setup, feel free to ask them!

One note: scum had the ability to decide ties. This was supposed to be in the OP, but I realized after D1 that I had overlooked putting it in there, so to best maintain the balance of the game it became a factional ability instead.

oh

butts. Sorry. Well played, Mr Con.

why the hell did you vote for yourself?

nanook is punishing me for taking so long.

That was the top deterrent against voting you. We shall see.

wouldn't it be incredible if it was actually me all this time?

[VOTE: TonyStarkPrime] aubergine

Several things prevent me from going with Long Con here:
-The self-vote and Turnip Head's reaction to it.
-Epi's actual aggression toward LC.
-Long Con's effort early on, particularly toward TH.
-Long Con's frustration leading up to the self-vote is evident in a number of places on review.
-None of the mafia members actually made meaningful pushes against Tony. They all mentioned him, but those mentions were flat. They resonated exactly the same as TH/Epi interactions.
-Long Con voted for Radishes Day 2 along with Epi and TH while speedchuck was on TH. I don't see a mafia team strategizing to load up three votes on one player, while the fourth member is bussing a teammate.
-Long Con's role claim is more believable than Tony's.

Good game all, sorry if I'm wrong. You've both played extremely well and this has not been an easy decision. If I am right then it's clear my purpose in life is to stop tony from winning mafia games. If I am wrong then Epi continues to bat 1.000 and we all have to put up with that for a little while longer.

[mention]NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME[/mention]

Long Con wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:53 pm I was hoping that my version of your power would give me a chance to kill you.

Actually before I vote: I was asking if you had a response to tony's big post on the bottom of the previous page.

I think I've made my decision. But first, a few words.

[mention]Long Con[/mention] care to respond?

Long Con wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:02 pm First, I don't really discover a role, I receive a nerfed version of an ability my target has. It didn't tell me anything about his alignment.

What was different about the ability you received and the one listed in his role description?

[mention]Long Con[/mention] you say that you targeted Mikey and learned his role D/N2. Yet when we were collecting everyone's guesses for the three person mafia team, you had him listed as your alternate pick. Why?

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:55 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:48 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sat Apr 11, 2020 2:24 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Sat Apr 11, 2020 2:18 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sat Apr 11, 2020 2:17 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sat Apr 11, 2020 2:13 pm
Long Con wrote: ↑Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:06 pm Ok, well then my "spirit vote" is on Tony. His role claim is a lie. I'm Desmond, and I'm Civ, and there's no way in hell he wouldn't have tried to kill me last night if he had the chance. I assume he tried to target someone else with his power (likely to kill Desmond if you can find him). He was trying to draw me out so he'd know who to target.

Sloonei, I'm town, and voting Tony is the way for us to win the game.
SHOULD HAVE TARGETED LC
yes my role works the way y’all thought it did I got a clarificatory PM I’m slightly ashamed that I took a stance on my own role and then was completely wrong so you can throw that into the untrustworthy things about me bin
Could you explain your role in as much details as possible?
The way LC said: I target someone, and if they’re Desmond, I kill them. Last night I targeted Speed — I knew Desmond had to be on the scum team because of how Speed reacted to my power, and Speed was the safest guess for being for sure on the scum team. I didn’t target LC because even though he had the highest chance of being Desmond I also thought he might be town.

Im also ascetic, which seems to be a common theme in this game. I said that yesterday. If LC targeted me, his action would have failed.
Why did speedchuck's reaction explicitly confirm for you that he was mafia?
He=Desmond?

he=speedchuck

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sat Apr 11, 2020 2:24 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Sat Apr 11, 2020 2:18 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sat Apr 11, 2020 2:17 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sat Apr 11, 2020 2:13 pm
Long Con wrote: ↑Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:06 pm Ok, well then my "spirit vote" is on Tony. His role claim is a lie. I'm Desmond, and I'm Civ, and there's no way in hell he wouldn't have tried to kill me last night if he had the chance. I assume he tried to target someone else with his power (likely to kill Desmond if you can find him). He was trying to draw me out so he'd know who to target.

Sloonei, I'm town, and voting Tony is the way for us to win the game.
SHOULD HAVE TARGETED LC
yes my role works the way y’all thought it did I got a clarificatory PM I’m slightly ashamed that I took a stance on my own role and then was completely wrong so you can throw that into the untrustworthy things about me bin
Could you explain your role in as much details as possible?
The way LC said: I target someone, and if they’re Desmond, I kill them. Last night I targeted Speed — I knew Desmond had to be on the scum team because of how Speed reacted to my power, and Speed was the safest guess for being for sure on the scum team. I didn’t target LC because even though he had the highest chance of being Desmond I also thought he might be town.

Im also ascetic, which seems to be a common theme in this game. I said that yesterday. If LC targeted me, his action would have failed.

Why did speedchuck's reaction explicitly confirm for you that he was mafia?

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:44 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:39 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:32 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:54 pm I think LC is town. Likely if I were scum my scum partner has taken the target of me or LC. I’m not helping the case by defending LC.
Only speed has
oh I see a problem here
This is the post that I based my Speed/LC not teamed thing on.

I have no clue what it means
Are you telling me you do not remember why you held a firm contrarian viewpoint all of yesterday?
I remember why I thought LC wasn’t mafia and Ive explained that. I only made two posts about specifically Speed/LC not being paired and they’re back to back and it’s clear that my mind is elsewhere. I can only look at what I wrote to see what I thought.

If this is falling on deaf ears, vote for me now. I don’t want this to be dragged out. But if you seriously have doubts, I’ll do whatever I can to help you.

Why was funnygurl your choice instead of me or ts account?

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:32 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:54 pm I think LC is town. Likely if I were scum my scum partner has taken the target of me or LC. I’m not helping the case by defending LC.
Only speed has
oh I see a problem here
This is the post that I based my Speed/LC not teamed thing on.

I have no clue what it means

Are you telling me you do not remember why you held a firm contrarian viewpoint all of yesterday?

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:33 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:31 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:25 pm You haven’t touched on speed coming after me late yesterday, I assume you think it was staged?
I am not putting as much stock in things from late yesterday, yeah. Should I?
It was where it became clear to me that LC was scum

Why?

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:25 pm You haven’t touched on speed coming after me late yesterday, I assume you think it was staged?

I am not putting as much stock in things from late yesterday, yeah. Should I?

I’m not posting everything I have to say right now. I don’t need to do that, I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:11 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:03 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:58 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:55 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:53 pm I ranked all the players and then divided that into groups of 4 because that was roughly how I felt — there were no “huge gaps” in how townie I thought anyone was, no runaway towncore and no obvious scum. Coulda done it all in one running list but I wouldn’t have felt differently about it. It’s not like I type something and that determines what I think about each person
You said yesterday that speedchuck and long con were incompatible. Why?
I really thought it was FG. I changed my mind towards the end of the day (which is visible) when I saw how speed and LC interacted over my power role; it seemed clear that one was covering for the other.
But when I asked you why you thought it was funnygurl your answer was "I don't think it's Long Con."

"Why is it funnygurl?"
"Because it's not Long Con."
"Okay. Why is it not Long Con?"
"Because it's funnygurl."

yes I was hoping no one would notice that. Maybe I was being stubborn.

I'm gonna need you to tell me what you were actually thinking.

My biggest hang up in general is that the mafia team treated both of you pretty similarly. There was some token suspicion both ways. Epi even voted for both of you. But I think LC's push on Turnip Head looks more believable than any interactions Tony had with any of the other tree, and I also think the pushes against LC look a little bit more sincere. All three dead baddies targeted LC early on Day 1. It took a lot longer for Tony's name to appear in any of their ISOs. But then, LC made even less mention of Tony than any of them, so I can't really take that to the bank. Tony just wasn't talked about early in the game. LC was. But a lot of that LC chatter was fueled by Turnip Head, speedchuck, and Epi.

It's probably obvious which way I'm leaning at this point. Tony, tell me why I'm wrong.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:58 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:55 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:53 pm I ranked all the players and then divided that into groups of 4 because that was roughly how I felt — there were no “huge gaps” in how townie I thought anyone was, no runaway towncore and no obvious scum. Coulda done it all in one running list but I wouldn’t have felt differently about it. It’s not like I type something and that determines what I think about each person
You said yesterday that speedchuck and long con were incompatible. Why?
I really thought it was FG. I changed my mind towards the end of the day (which is visible) when I saw how speed and LC interacted over my power role; it seemed clear that one was covering for the other.

But when I asked you why you thought it was funnygurl your answer was "I don't think it's Long Con."

"Why is it funnygurl?"
"Because it's not Long Con."
"Okay. Why is it not Long Con?"
"Because it's funnygurl."

[mention]Long Con[/mention] you singled out leetic and Turnip Head as players you spent a lot of time and effort on. Why?

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:53 pm I ranked all the players and then divided that into groups of 4 because that was roughly how I felt — there were no “huge gaps” in how townie I thought anyone was, no runaway towncore and no obvious scum. Coulda done it all in one running list but I wouldn’t have felt differently about it. It’s not like I type something and that determines what I think about each person

You said yesterday that speedchuck and long con were incompatible. Why?

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:37 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:37 pm
Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:17 pm @TonyStarkPrime why did you wait until Day 3 to start looking for roles?
Power works on odd days. Since I thought it was a trigger, I was never going to use it day 1.
Why would I look for roles before?

Because your role apparently depends on locating one specific role. I'd think you'd want to get a head start.

I swear I'm almost ready to vote.

[mention]TonyStarkPrime[/mention] why did you wait until Day 3 to start looking for roles?

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:30 pm [VOTE: Long Con] aubergine

He's obviously a wolf. TSP is also. I'd say the third one is Sloonei. Wrap it up.

lol

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:27 am
Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:51 am
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:47 am
Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:30 am
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:27 am
Sloonei wrote: ↑Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:06 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:44 pm Okay it’s not Sloonei, LC, Drago, TS
Probably not Mac, Epi, MR, FG
Could be Leetic, Speed, Ted, TH
rainbow
There are no substantial mentions of either speedchuck or turnip head prior to them being named in the four person pseudo-POE here. Tony, can you remember what went into these reads?
Wanted to split it into groups of four. I don’t think I’d substantially talked about anyone to this point and Speed’s read throughout the game was mostly “speed’s just kinda here”. Don’t remember why TH was there.
Why was groups of four the way to go?
12 players divides evenly
but why was that the proper way to split up and express your reads?
As opposed to...

A standard rainbow-esque lynch where players are divided into groups based purely on how you feel about them, not whether there’s four of them.

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