The Syndicate

i misread it

tutuu wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:54 pm
Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:13 am Honestly, I think Punish the Fool was poorly considered. Not in terms of costs and damage but in its existence at all.

I was normally a weakened version of a roleblocker, a medium strength town role. Specifically, the roleblocker has the low chance to block a mafia kill, saving a townie and catching a wolf. This part of the power was removed, making my role weak to the point of actually being antitown. Without the chance to block a kill, I deemed the chance of blocking a more useful town ability higher than the ability to meaningfully disrupt scum on most nights.

Now, in order to move my ability from antitown to medium strength town, I had to

1) Out my ability, giving the mafia a roadmap and leading to a higher chance of disruption via mafia night action and

2) One or more likely two townies had to sacrifice their night actions by giving me mana.

Perhaps more important than those downsides, upgrading my ability requires the town to coordinate night actions in a way that is unrealistic. In spite of my D1 claim and being widely townread, it’s my understanding that I never received mana from a townie all game. I personally missed the mid day mana giving deadline (midday deadlines being not a thing in 99% of mafia games) multiple times.

Punish the Fool seems to be a mechanic similar to soupkill or anticlaim, ie giving the wolf team a massive bonus in extra kills in order to counter and discourage a game breakingly powerful town strategy of roleclaiming, generally in games with open setups or restricted themes. However, it was instead used to counter a difficult to coordinate mechanic that already requires significant sacrifice.

This town was mechanically weak without PtF. With it, I’d wager that most of the mechanics in this game were not used at all because there was such a strong disincentive for townies to give each other mana.
i disagree with mostly everything here

i dont think that you can say that the mafia non-damaging actions which we got to see in action (interacting with the chopping poll) were way too anti-town, and also say that your ability to block non-damaging actions was anti-town

these two seem to contradict each other, dont they?

i dont think that using the unkicked power of your role was antitown. there were no investigative roles as written in the OP, the most anti town thing you could have done was block one of the two protectives. blocking wilgy and made's roles weren't that impactful, they were VT-esque. all 4 of the mafia members had non-damaging anti-town abilities

you didnt need to out your ability. you needed 2 blue and 3 generic to activate it. you could generate 2 blue and 1 colorless by yourself. you could ask for 2 of any color, at most you could claim that you were centered around blue mana if you wanted to but i dont think you needed to claim anything about your color or ability. urist sent you a blue mana on day 1

there were only 3 townies who had to sacrifice their ability in order to give away mana - urist, guillotine and made. their abilities costed 3. your role, kyle's, hollowkatt's, falcon's, mac's, ted's roles - all of those used 2 mana for their basic ability, and were incentivized to give one of their spare mana away every day, unless they think that they will receive something. marmot and epi were masons with purposely very weak artifacts and were also incentivized to give away mana or use it on one of their abilities. 112's role couldnt activate her ability on her own so similarly she was incentivized to either give it away or try to obtain.

without PTF i think that the game was breakable because people could split the game in two parts - one scummy and one towny part, and force all players from the scummy part to give their mana to the players in the towny part. and then everyone would claim it, and people would keep records of it, and, idk. in the early game maybe it wouldn't have been that breakable but at the mid-late game if there were 1-2 wolves they would have been mech outed easily i think due to being forced to give away mana

i agree that the way it is now was too punishing for town and they couldnt coordinate enough even if they wanted to

i disagree that without it the town was mechanically weak

My base role required all my mana

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:33 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:32 pm In my time in post cap jail I observed HK essentially outing himself as mafia. I believe HK and 112 are teammates.
OK. What posts of his led you to this conclusion?

His reads fluctuate with mood. When Jack hit the thread he suddenly went from subtly framing me as a candidate to town reading me because of Jack's authoritativeness. His read on 112 is essentially top scum but he's done nothing to create activity against that slot and simply just says that's his read.

In my time in post cap jail I observed HK essentially outing himself as mafia. I believe HK and 112 are teammates.

I went over post cap so I gotta stop posting. Soz.

It's information the Mafia can or will possess already that town could use to make better informed decisions. I don't get your perspective on this.

Aight Falcon can I have some reads please?

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:35 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:31 pm
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:28 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:24 pm If you've half killed a mafia it would be good to know because others (like me) also have damage spells.
But we don't know if I hit Maf, including me. So how would it be good to know, since we are incapable of knowing anyway?

I really only see it as a benefit to Maf to know who I hit each night.

Both players I hit are still alive. Let the Maf use their life to find out if its them IMO.

Anybody else wanna weigh in on this?
Did you kill Marmot?
Why don't you spend 3 life and find out who I hit?

Oof.

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:33 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:30 pm I would say that the Mafia would have used punish the fool on me last night and failed because nobody sent me any mana.

I would say that they probably use lifescope every night. They probably use all three factionals every night tbh.
It costs them life to use the Lifescope, does it not? Doubt they've used it every night, if at all.

Me keeping my targets hush hush would encourage them to use their life to find out if they were targeted

They don't have to pay with life. They can use mana. I'd say keeping an up to date tally of life is a critical tactic for them honestly.

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:28 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:24 pm If you've half killed a mafia it would be good to know because others (like me) also have damage spells.
But we don't know if I hit Maf, including me. So how would it be good to know, since we are incapable of knowing anyway?

I really only see it as a benefit to Maf to know who I hit each night.

Both players I hit are still alive. Let the Maf use their life to find out if its them IMO.

Anybody else wanna weigh in on this?

Did you kill Marmot?

I would say that the Mafia would have used punish the fool on me last night and failed because nobody sent me any mana.

I would say that they probably use lifescope every night. They probably use all three factionals every night tbh.

It would be one thing if you were towncore but aside from me and Epi I think most players here have you as mafia.

I don't see the benefit of withholding information here. Mafia knows you have a damage spell now. They can find out who you hit. Heck they may already know. The only people left our are the town.

If you've half killed a mafia it would be good to know because others (like me) also have damage spells.

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:20 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:17 pm
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:14 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:11 pm
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:09 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:06 pm @falcon45ca wanna claim the marks?
Wasn't me. I've not been given any mana, aside from the 3 I generate. I fireballed someone N1 and N2
What does Fireball do?
Does damage to a player, kinda like a fireball IRL
You should out who you targeted and how much damage imo.
Why not let the Maf use their Lifescope instead?

How does that help town at all?

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:20 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:15 pm
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:13 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:10 pm
Marmot wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:32 pm dunya
Epignosis
Guillotine
hollowkatt
Jackofhearts2005
Long Con
DrWilgy
Enrique
MacDougall
tedxtr
Urist
falcon45ca
Justplayingitcool
112

This is my current rainbow. This time, yellow (Enrique) is null, whereas orange is middling (could go either way)
I am encouraged to simply sheep Marmot entirely from this point on.
Why? His voting record was 2 townies. Hate when players sheep the dead, it's pretty wolfy IMO
If you'd followed my progressing thoughts you'd understand. I am trying to understand the purpose of killing him and the best I can get to is that he had great reads.

You can't criticise him for his Ted vote btw. He voted to save his mason partner and his vote was on JPIC prior.
So what if the Maf aren't in his scum list at all, and they hit him so townies would push his scum reads?

I can't create a team comp that would do that that doesn't comprise of players I am already town reading.

I think we should get hard claims from JPIC, Falcon and 112.

The mafia have the ability to determine damage. Town doesn't. Any information on who may have damage on them is beneficial. For instance if Epi has damage and we have a healer we need to know.

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:14 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:11 pm
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:09 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:06 pm @falcon45ca wanna claim the marks?
Wasn't me. I've not been given any mana, aside from the 3 I generate. I fireballed someone N1 and N2
What does Fireball do?
Does damage to a player, kinda like a fireball IRL

You should out who you targeted and how much damage imo.

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:13 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:10 pm
Marmot wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:32 pm dunya
Epignosis
Guillotine
hollowkatt
Jackofhearts2005
Long Con
DrWilgy
Enrique
MacDougall
tedxtr
Urist
falcon45ca
Justplayingitcool
112

This is my current rainbow. This time, yellow (Enrique) is null, whereas orange is middling (could go either way)
I am encouraged to simply sheep Marmot entirely from this point on.
Why? His voting record was 2 townies. Hate when players sheep the dead, it's pretty wolfy IMO

If you'd followed my progressing thoughts you'd understand. I am trying to understand the purpose of killing him and the best I can get to is that he had great reads.

You can't criticise him for his Ted vote btw. He voted to save his mason partner and his vote was on JPIC prior.

Id like to just pool JPIC and 112 as they are the bottom 2 on Marmot's list.

Would I kill Marmot?

I ... don't think so. But maybe if my teammates were very keen to kill him. I would probably just veto it and kill Epi or Dunya over him though.

Anyone green or higher in Marmot's list would almost always veto shooting him. I know that seems simplistic but I feel like there are better kills for all 7 of them to make than Marmot. None of them as mafia would feel threatened by him and in fact would feel like they're better off with him alive.

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:09 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:06 pm @falcon45ca wanna claim the marks?
Wasn't me. I've not been given any mana, aside from the 3 I generate. I fireballed someone N1 and N2

What does Fireball do?

Marmot wrote: ↑Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:32 pm dunya
Epignosis
Guillotine
hollowkatt
Jackofhearts2005
Long Con
DrWilgy
Enrique
MacDougall
tedxtr
Urist
falcon45ca
Justplayingitcool
112

This is my current rainbow. This time, yellow (Enrique) is null, whereas orange is middling (could go either way)

I am encouraged to simply sheep Marmot entirely from this point on.

It feels like a very rand mafia kill.

Very few teams make sense to have agreed to that kill.

Like it almost spews all the syndicate regulars town to me.

So that all being said. I still have question marks over the Marmot kill. If it was a town vigi they should claim imo.

@falcon45ca wanna claim the marks?

Urist didn't do it. Cuz he said he did a protown thing after he saw you get townfirmed.

I feel like it's just Falcon.

I don't particularly think anyone else would target you two

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:25 pm So the Maf are cool with letting player's town clear each other? Huh.

Ya, Epi & Guillo both scum for me.

Cuz this

If I had to guess I'd say its Falcon tbh.

Wait no it can't. Just a town role.

Could be a 3p role tho.

Yes ok that's a town role for sure.

Wait I misread. Carry on.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:58 pm I don't think mafia submitted those powers.

The simplest explanation is a civilian who suspect us did that.

-The person who marked Epignosis has the opposite alignment of Epignosis

Says it on the tin.

Guillo and Epi marked
Guillo and Mac targeted to amplify our vote power on each other
Epi spewed town by the scum kill

I said before that the Marmot kill only makes sense if the Mafia knew he was mason but now I am wondering because that would mean the Mafia spewed Epi clear on purpose. And marking Epi and Guillo at the same time spews Guillo clear on purpose too. Killing Marmot knowing his role would be quite a misplay.

So they just killed Marmot not knowing his role? But why? Why Marmot and not Dunya the neighboriser? Or Epi? Or Mac the outed vigi? It doesn't make sense...

Help.

Guillo why did you go on to humour that the marker is town again after you already clarified they can't be because it states they have the opposite alignment to you?

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:39 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:38 pm Thats a very out of character opportunistic little snipe.
Who cares? Is HK mafia or not?

I do not like the way you are making me feel in this game. I do not enjoy it. I would like for you to at least attempt to consider this when engaging me moving forward.

I don't know who the Mafia are. I am attempting to play the game and solve it. Sidelining my pushes and interjecting in this manner is disruptive to my genuine attempts to solve the game which is contradicting your wincon.

Also level 1 as fuck.

Thats a very out of character opportunistic little snipe.

hollowkatt wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:51 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:06 pm
dunya wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:09 pm @MacDougall who did you block n2?
Marmot.
The conveniently dead guy, got it.

Seriously?

Enrique wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:15 pm
dunya wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:46 am
Long Con wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:04 am I don't see how sending a player a bunch of mana clears anyone. I don't understand the plan, I guess. So, for example, if I receive a bunch of mana tonight, and tomorrow Enrique says he sent it, I should lock him town and appreciate his genius plan?
....

basically, he's saying if he had sent guill 6 mana and all hell broke loose, he would have an idea that maybe it was guil who did that hell. that was the intention behind sending someone like guill all that mana. i think.

alternatively, if the person you sent all that mana to stays mum, and doesn't react, and all hell didn't break loose, i think that's what made epi town read guill. i am not there yet, or close, but i can see why i guess. mafia would know none of them sent it to each other, so 6 unaccounted mana means people trusted them. i'm still loling guil starts day 2 with 6 mana gifts and then questions epi lol

i dont even know why we are wasting time talking about this. epi is lock town by mechanics.
Interesting, did something big happen today? Did all hell break loose? Do you think a lot of potentially harmful actions might have been set in motion last night?

Dude this is a really interesting point. Dunya got 6 mana and then suddenly a lot of what appears to be neg utlity shit occurred.

Hmmm.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:14 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:06 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:59 pm
Long Con wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:53 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:49 pm The goal is not to cover everybody.

The goal is to leave exposed those who get no love.
But how many exposed is ideal? Three?
4.5
4.5 would guarantee a town dies. I would say ideally it would be 2 or even just 1.

Long Con wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:41 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:38 pm
Long Con wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:35 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:22 pm
Long Con wrote: ↑Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:17 pm Both of you, stop this please.

Any two players with BTSC can give six mana to someone. That's my point. I'm not barking up a tree.
I don't care about that.

You accused me of being mafia even though I claimed to have given six mana to one person.

Why would mafia give six mana to one person?

Falcon gave the only reasonable answer, and I don't even like Falcon (as a civilian): "Epi and Guillo are lying about it and are mafia teammates."

Nobody else has provided a reasonable possibility.

So I don't care that you think any players with BTSC can give six mana to someone.

I care that you called me mafia and voted for me to die when 1) You didn't know I had BTSC, and 2) Giving six mana to another person doesn't seem like it would make sense for a mafia member to do.
Well I don't care about any of that, so have fun with it. It made less sense to me to give all your mana to someone of whom you were guessing an alignment. You keep chewing on this as long as you need to though.
Ah!

That was the scheme.

If some big nasty shit went down in the thread at Night, assuming mafia have additional artifacts and what not, we would know who had the mana to wreak such havoc.

It was our way of clearing ourselves to others while outing mafia we overpowered.

I think it was quite a genius plan if I do say so myself.
I give it a 4.5/10.

Sorry

Enrique wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:11 pm
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:14 pm
Enrique wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:59 pm [VOTE: Jackofhearts2005] aubergine

What makes Jack town in your eyes?
Day 0 reasons.

JPIC is straight up scummy. Most of the game he's been confused and going with the flow, not making any effort to actually find something but rather coasting on established wagons.

Justplayingitcool wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:22 pm
Made wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:18 pm
Justplayingitcool wrote: ↑Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:13 pm Finally caught up. I have determined that Made is scum

[VOTE: Made] aubergine

Kyle also incredibly wolfy for having over 100 posts and I don't remember a single one.

Why are we voting Ted?
the really annoying thing for me is gth you're town (unless ted is scum, which i don't think is the case.)
let's play a game. If i'm town, who's bad
If you're town, then I'd suspect Marmot.

The only read I agree with him on is you. I town read falcon as mentioned and I also think Urist has been slightly townie as well, so that would be an instant
There's a lot of this kind of thing. "If you're town, then I'd suspect Marmot" (or anything else in the post) is not a serious conviction, it's just scum wading through whatever shit to get by. He's been very constantly present though, and I'll even believe informed, it's not as if he's out of the loop, he's just content with the thread moving in directions that don't affect him.

Who fucking knows about Wilgy. "Town derp" is a dumb idea but there hasn't been a very strict condemnation or clearing either way.

I think Mac is town but there was a vote on him at the time I chose Jack (who I also strongly town-read (and who has greater reason to vote for me anyway...)). I would prefer not to see him finishing the day without a vote on him, but we have some time to maneuver and I doubt I'm the only one with this opinion of him. For Mac, most of all, I can't read his interactions with dunya and shifting opinions as him being scum. It could all be some bizarre distancing, but the way it played(plays) out makes perfect sense.

Gonna ask something from you too bro - pls stop calling me a "slanker", I don't like it. I plain wasn't here at the beginning; I wanted the game to start a bit later than it did but I accepted the commitment and was excited to play. I spent all of Day 2, when I finally had free time, finally reading 40 pages of shit I missed (and making this situation very clear!). I don't "slank", if I'm playing at all I will have a moderately strong presence, and I'm playing now. If you have to know now, you might see me browsing the thread sometimes during north american daytime but I'm likelier to be active at night. I would also prefer not to talk this again and instead focus on content, of which no, obviously I don't have a fuckton, but I do not regret spending time reading the whole thread over and coming in today with an informed view of the entire game.

Slank is literally just a term to describe someone low posting. It's common mafia verbiage and means nothing else. It's not co-opted from anywhere. It doesn't mean anything offensive.

I have reservations with Marmot as a kill choice too. I know it's like a cliche but I was going to push him and Epi as teammates today from my position as uninformed. The mafia choosing to kill him feels loaded with agenda. The only reason I can see for killing him would be if they heavily determined that he was mason or somesuch. He literally cast a death blow to a town in a split vote, as mafia unless I have plenty to gain (ie. cleared status, or actual proper fear of his role) off his death, I never kill him there.

Like occam's razor says they just knew that he was masons with Epi.

How could they have known? A good guess? My problem with that is that a guess does not overcompensate for how bad he looked off that kill. It literally only makes sense if they knew exactly that he was a mason.

How could they have known?

What if this vote thing is actually not real but it's just a wolf town crier role and gets the top town player killed?

Epignosis wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:59 pm
Long Con wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:53 pm
Epignosis wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:49 pm The goal is not to cover everybody.

The goal is to leave exposed those who get no love.
But how many exposed is ideal? Three?
4.5

4.5 would guarantee a town dies. I would say ideally it would be 2 or even just 1.

dunya wrote: ↑Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:09 pm @MacDougall who did you block n2?

Marmot.

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