The Syndicate

MacDougall wrote:

Quin wrote:Okay, I'm pretty sure you meant after. That helps me understand.

I agree her being recruited is a possibility.
I do not see her being Lu Bu a possibility, as I still think it's counterproductive at surface value. I could argue that the secret behind his role might involve him lynching a certain person within his faction, such as the leader - but I have no reason to justify this.

Lu Bu theory would require her having found a negative read on Sorsha and having joined her team anyway. I think that the flavour of that role lends itself to having cop ability before making the selection as part of it's secrets. Which would explain her infodump without context, however why would she join either Mafia faction after having dumped intel into the thread about two potential Mafia players? You are right, it seems unlikely.

Yellow Turban recruited is possible, but that would be assuming secrets entirely, as a result highly speculative and to my mind unlikely just by virtue of that fact.

Recruited by Sorsha, the cult leader, would make sense, but would require her being a warrior, which in flavour wouldn't make any sense for her to have acquired info as the warriors in this game don't seem to have any skills outside of strength in combat.

All the theories have their pros and cons, but none are great. The fact remains however that she dropped her case. I would like to know why.

MacDougall wrote:

Quin wrote:

MacDougall wrote:

Elohcin wrote:I voted Sorsha and TH. I have my reasons but probably shouldn't share them with the class.

Earlier in the game she declared Sorsha bad. And yet, she hasn't voted Sorsha since day 3?

Elohcin wrote:

Quin wrote:

Elohcin wrote:I voted Sorsha and TH. I have my reasons but probably shouldn't share them with the class.

I think you should.

If I do, I may be punished.

She also soft claimed intel.

And interesting that it is you Quin who questioned Elohcin about it, but have quickly defended her from me.

My read of this play is that Sorsha is the recruiter and recruited Elohcin to shut her up. Were you recruited too Quin?

Best case Elohcin soft claimed intel on a player and has since acted like it never happened for shits and giggles or as a civ gambit to pressure Sorsha. Worst case, well ...

I left it alone after it became pretty clear it'd lead to an info dump. I didn't think further on it. If Eloh was recruited, it seems counter productive to her new win condition to lynch the person who recruited her.

Does anything in her posts lead you to think that it could be the former?

Sorry who has she tried to lynch that would be identified as her recruiter? She infodumped intel on Sorsha early in the game and then completely backed off her from Day 3 onwards reverting to the prevailing meh style of play that the majority of us are exhibiting.

Of course, it would make little sense if she was Lu Bu to infodump scum intel on Elohcin only to join her faction. Or perhaps she wasn't aware of the faction Elo was part of, just her alignment.

At any rate, there is smoke there. Black smoke.

MacDougall wrote:Also possible that Elohcin is Lu Bu and selected a faction that she discovered Sorsha was part of.

MacDougall wrote:

Elohcin wrote:I voted Sorsha and TH. I have my reasons but probably shouldn't share them with the class.

Earlier in the game she declared Sorsha bad. And yet, she hasn't voted Sorsha since day 3?

Elohcin wrote:

Quin wrote:

Elohcin wrote:I voted Sorsha and TH. I have my reasons but probably shouldn't share them with the class.

I think you should.

If I do, I may be punished.

She also soft claimed intel.

And interesting that it is you Quin who questioned Elohcin about it, but have quickly defended her from me.

My read of this play is that Sorsha is the recruiter and recruited Elohcin to shut her up. Were you recruited too Quin?

Best case Elohcin soft claimed intel on a player and has since acted like it never happened for shits and giggles or as a civ gambit to pressure Sorsha. Worst case, well ...

MacDougall wrote:So you are disputing the validity of my read based on the fact that she tied someone we have no confirmation of the alignment of with a deceased civilian, and yet others see the circumstantial evidence towards my civdom and disregard it. Most amusing.

If we lynch Bass and Bass is bad, I will accept your rebuttal. Until such times it is highly, highly speculative.

MacDougall wrote:Now, if I may. Elohcin is bad.

Golden wrote:

Quin wrote:Is...anyone going to comment on the double length night phase we just had? Is that relevant? Or was Epi just busy?

I'll catch up at some point. I'm still looking at Bass. We should listen to what's his face for once.

It's common to extend phases for US public holidays. But you can always ask the host.

Sloonei wrote: I'm sorry.

nutella wrote:

Russtifinko wrote:

Quin wrote:

nutella wrote:Also though, we've been kind of assuming the YTs only have 2 members left, but considering their team is chock full of secrets they might have recruited by now and might be doing way better than we think.

ehhhhhhhh????????

I second this "eh?". Now that you mention it, recruitment would be a pretty fitting mechanic for a religious cult, but nutella, where did you come up with this? Do you have any non-lore reason to think it?

The fact that Yellow Turbans only have 3 members next to Nanman's 5, combined with the fact that all of their roles have secrets, leads me to believe it's likely they have a recruitment potential.

Golden wrote:Actually, recruitment makes a lot of balance sense. I always thought that team was too small.

I don't find nutella suspicious for raising it. I mean, seriously, nutella is going to be chewed out by her own teammate MP all game and then spill their teams key secret? I don't think so.

nutella wrote:Also though, we've been kind of assuming the YTs only have 2 members left, but considering their team is chock full of secrets they might have recruited by now and might be doing way better than we think.

Bass_the_Clever wrote:Talking in this game seems dangerous. Also if they are killing high posters and people who look like they are these civ leaders then why would they leave Quin alive ?

Sloonei wrote:

Quin wrote:

Sloonei wrote:

nutella wrote:By my count 16 out of 30 players voted. The participation rate in this game continues to be shameful

not that i've been a beacon of activity, but still!

also shouldn't this thing be locked? am i breaking the rules?

Would it be too much to ask for the baddies to do us all a favour and kill off all the inactives?

they seem to be working on it.

Sloonei wrote:

nutella wrote:By my count 16 out of 30 players voted. The participation rate in this game continues to be shameful

not that i've been a beacon of activity, but still!

also shouldn't this thing be locked? am i breaking the rules?

Sloonei wrote:

Quin wrote:@Sloonei

In general, I choose not to view explanations for inactivity as suspicious, because I think it's in bad taste to use it as a crutch when one is bad, so I just have to hope that's not what TCF was trying to achieve.

I also didn't like his 'I don't mind being voted for' post. I don't trust anybody that's done it, and that idea has only been solidified given MP's flip after doing the same thing. I'm writing this and I'm thinking we've had this exact conversation before. Oh well.

TCF is saying a lot, but there's not a whole lot of meaning behind his words. With that said, he did inspire me to scrutinize DP more. He might even be responsible for the bandwagon on DP right now. I'd throw him some civ points for that, but obviously not a whole lot given the multiple teams thing. I'm struggling to draw the line here between 'Is DP's voting pattern, suspicious, or am I just pissed off at his unhelpfulness?' Right now I'm looking at the former, and even if I'm wrong, it's not the worst outcome.

With that said, one of my votes will go to DP. I'm not sure on the second, but I'm going to go through Luffy's posts since my ISO of his Day 1. It won't be as comprehensive as before, though.

I'm not sure how I feel about the MacDougall train. It's unlikely at least that he's MP's teammate. I'll look at him too.

linki: wait, does day end today? shit what

I voted DP only.

I hesitate to award him any townie points for the DP thing. Like I said in my ISO, DP is the easiest target someone could pick out of this game right now.

I am in agreement RE: Mac. I'm really not feeling any of the suspicions against him.

Elohcin wrote:@ Sloon: I guess Quin is cool. I don;t have any beef with him at the moment anyway. We had a misunderstanding, that's all. My fault for not fully comprehending my skimming the thread.

Elohcin wrote:

Quin wrote:

Elohcin wrote:Someone else picked your name out first and said something about it that made sense to me. It's been quite a long few days and I cannot even remember what it was that they said or even who said it. I was commenting on THAT person's post. You are getting quite squirmy over the whole situation. That makes me more suspicious of you than what was originally said.

References to me being squirmy please.

I'm talking about all the posts you've made this afternoon....like you are getting all scared I'm going to vote you just b/c I agreed with something someone said about you.

Quin wrote:btw, 'right before' is not the same as 'a few days ago'. I think you're backpedalling.

A few days ago? I don't remember saying a few days ago. Bah-humbug, I guess I actually have to go an look for the post I was talking about now. It was a linki for me after that ISO of MP that you were mentioned in.

**Looks back at posts from earlier today**

Hmm...I cannot find what I was talking about. I must have misread something at the time. Derp.

Sorry, I've really not been paying attention too much all game.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:@Caps

Nothing, but it sounds manipulative.

@Quin

I don't.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:This Caps-MP theory could be true, and I do think some posts Caps made today are suspicious, but the whole thing has so much WIFOM I don't want to touch it with a 10-feet pole.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:

Quin wrote:ayyyyy I was right for a change!

b-b-but Quin, you haven't talked about MP since like Day 2!

Shut up!




---


Anyway, I support a TCF lynch. Glorfindel is nearly always on the latter half of the major bandwagons. Let's talk about that.

I wish they would stop killing all of the active players

Wtf is a TCF?

nutella wrote:Pleasantly surprised at the lynch result!! Nice.

RIP TH Weird that the YTs have killed another non-player.

Sorsha wrote:I'd like to say I find it notable that MovingPictures and TheCapsFan both voted for each other to be prefects. (and they both also voted for jjj )

I'll likely be voting for CapsFan today since I think he voted for one of his teammates in the prefect poll.

Nice catch.

Everything the YTs have done in this game is weird and my paranoia sensors are going bananas right now.

TheCapsFan wrote:In that case, Sorsha, you have nothing to worry about, because I'm civ.

Why do you keep repeating that? It doesn't make it more likely for anyone to believe you are a civ.

Elohcin wrote:Someone else picked your name out first and said something about it that made sense to me. It's been quite a long few days and I cannot even remember what it was that they said or even who said it. I was commenting on THAT person's post. You are getting quite squirmy over the whole situation. That makes me more suspicious of you than what was originally said.

Elohcin wrote:

Quin wrote:

Elohcin wrote:I know I haven't talked a lot this game. You know how I am in huge ass games!!! But as we are losing people (Achem....JJJ...) I am able to keep up a little better. So my thoughts on the whole MP voted for Caps and Caps voted for MP (for prefect) is this...
Would they really have done that if they were both bad? Wouldn't that be too obvious? I mean...we were allowed to vote ourselves. SO...if they were both bad, why not both just self vote, then there is no connection to be made between the two of them.

**Disclaimer** this post in no way supports the idea that the self voters (for prefect) were/are bad :P

On another note: I can see the Quin suspicion/theory as being true.

What Quin suspicion/theory?

the one right before I wrote that post.

Elohcin wrote:I know I haven't talked a lot this game. You know how I am in huge ass games!!! But as we are losing people (Achem....JJJ...) I am able to keep up a little better. So my thoughts on the whole MP voted for Caps and Caps voted for MP (for prefect) is this...
Would they really have done that if they were both bad? Wouldn't that be too obvious? I mean...we were allowed to vote ourselves. SO...if they were both bad, why not both just self vote, then there is no connection to be made between the two of them.

**Disclaimer** this post in no way supports the idea that the self voters (for prefect) were/are bad :P

On another note: I can see the Quin suspicion/theory as being true.

Scotty wrote:I don't have lots of time today, but I'm just gonna put these statements out there:

-I think Quin is bad. I may or may not have time to form a case on him, but this is based on mostly tone.
-LoRab looks good this game.
-I don't buy TH's rebuttal after being silenced, nor do I understand why we dropped that case entirely. He can be very articulate when he wants to be, and comments like he has made such as [paraphrasing] 'I play this way because I'm trying to play a specific game' is raising my alarms. I may or may not be voting for him this phase.
-I don't feel like CapsFan warranted any votes yesterday or the day before. Volunteering for a battle and then chickening does not a baddie make.
-I think killing Soneji, who has made no appearance this game, is a VERY odd choice. I think there are several people in this game that would kill an inactive to increase the challenge. Because that must be what that is, right? A challenge? There is no other rational explanation for Soneji dying last night. That only helps the civs. Whoooo would do that as bad?

Glorfindel wrote:Thanks, Guys I haven't been all that successful with my previous games on this site (as you probably know) and I'm told that to be better, I need to try harder to create discussion and analyse things more so that's what I'm trying to do. Your encouragement means a lot so thank you

OK, so with reference to your request Quin, I've quoted the post that I referred to below. I apologise if I misrepresented what you said in any way but reading back, I think I interpreted it correctly?

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Quin wrote:As far as Day 1 goes, I still do think that MP has come across as the most suspicious to me, so I'll vote there. I'm also going to vote Bubbles, because she's just one of (a few) who haven't checked in yet.

and now I'm off to bed.

You're probably going to be further confounded by this, but I like that you stuck to your guns on this and actually voted for me. Here, have a bump on the rainbow list to slightly darker but still not remotely dark green.

As for your question about MP's team mates, I think I need to be less tired to answer that... If I can get back to you in morning, if that's OK (we are in the same timezone after all)? Likewise, of all the people that hadn't checked in, why did you nominate Bubbles (she's so nice...) and what's your opinion of her replacement?

Glorfindel wrote:No one else seems all that interested so - looking at MP's ISO:

Day 0:
0.1 He votes for TheCapsFan and 3J for Prefect after TheCapsFan votes for him.
0.2 He makes (for the first time a reference to the players who are yet to check in)
0.3 Makes a light-hearted throw away line at Dom's campaign for Prefect
0.4 Responds to a remark by 3J about his voting for himself for Prefect
0.5 Remarks that my selection process for voting Scotty and 3J for prefect is not logical and admits that neither is anyone else's approach and also asks DDL for opinions of suspicious Day 0 activity.

0.6 Questions 3J's response to 0.4
0.7 Thinly veiled accusation to 3J of lack of transparency on Day 0 reads and then appears to accept 3J's explanation
0.8 Queries Quin on why he is not interested in his (MP's) interactions with 3J after he (Quin) expressed curiosity at the dialogue between TH and 3J.
0.9 Quin responds to MP saying that he already "agreed with his sentiments" to which MP responds to Quin with

Day 1:
1.1 Invites general discussion around the game's duel mechanic
1.2 Despite critisizing 3J for making early GTH reads in 0.7, MP throws out his own list of 'tentative' Town reads (Boomslang, DDL, 3J, Quin and Turnip Head).
1.3 MP makes his second reference to players that had not checked in - naming (Buubles, DisgruntledPorcupine, LoRab, Rabbit, Soneji and S-V-S)
1.4 Quin objects to MP saying that he hadn't sufficient posts to have earnt a Town read.
1.5 Gets aggro at Mac for criticising his Town reads and then attempts a justification on them in response to 3J's request.
1.5.1 Praises Boomslang for his Day 1 activity and engagement (consisting of opinions around strategy for selecting players to duel).
1.5.2 Gives credit to DDL for a couple of posts (of which the links don't work for me).
1.5.3 Says that he tried to get a feel for 3J and found his response 'genuine' and that hadn't seen anything 'questionable' or 'alarming' in terms of 3J's contributions.
1.5.4 Briefly says that he likes Quin's questioning of TH (refer 0.8) and
1.5.5 Nominates three of TH's posts that demonstrate 'critical thinking'.

1.6 In a response to Bass claims to have suspected 3J but then exhonerated him based on his responses.
1.7 Gets upset at MacDougall for his accusations based on his lack of activity.
1.8 The reconciliation.

Day 2:
2.1 In response to a post by DDL where he suggests that MP is angrier than normal and considers whether it was alignment indicative, 3J summarises MP RL dilemmas and states that he's "fine with MP right now."
2.2 Apologises for his behaviour
2.3 Questions Nerolunar as to whether he followed up his suspicions on MP over his GTH reads with a vote (he didn't).
2.4 3J claims MP as his top Town read based on his interpretation of MP's RL circumstances. Quin agrees and accuses MP of buddying to which MP responds with a request for an explanation.
2.5 MacDougall accuses MP of buddying up to his GTH reads and suggests (I think) that MP's behaviour was manipulative. MP responds with a reasonably calm rebuttal claiming to doubt Mac's sincerity.

2.6 In response to a post by Sig expressing interest in his accusation at Mac, MP replies with a battery of questions as to what Sig means.
2.7 Quin states he'll vote for MP (He actually voted MM and Dom) to which MP indicates confirms his 'Town cred' slightly more.
2.8 Queries why Dom, MM and Russ are attracting votes.
2.9 Claims not to understand Sorsha's suggested approach of voting for Prefects
2.10 Makes some comments to 3J about the case against Russ.

2.11 'Digs' 3J's case on Russ and dismisses the case on MM based on his WIFOM with Wilgy.
2.12 Notices that Dom is "throwing around a lot of suspicion (DF, 3J, Bass) ... But doing so in a fairly assertive manner... On the basis of little, dubious or non existent content" but claims that behaviour is not in itself inherently suspicious for Dom.
2.13 Not five minutes later, MP blows up at timmer for making random votes on Russ and Dom and wants a CFD where he wants to vote for timmer (and continues to pursue timmer until he is removed at EoD 3).
2.14 MP challenges DF on his suspicions of Dom and proceeds with a fairly strenuous defence of Dom.
2.15 Starts an active campaign against Nutella

2.16 At the end of the Day he makes a post nominating Dom and Boomslang as his 'TOP civilian reads'

My observations:
People have made some suggestions so far this Day phase to the effect that 3J may have been one of MP's partners in crime. I personally don't support that view. I believe (again, perhaps naively) that MPs behaviour was genuine and came from a place of frustration. I think from reading the tone of their interactions, 3J was cutting MP some slack as a consequence of his circumstances and in 3J's case at least, he fell for the opportunity that MP took to buddy up to him.

I think MP may have included at least one of his team mates on that list however and I didn't get the same vibe of sincerity from all of them as I did with 3J.

If you look at MP's list of absent players (refer: 1.3 above) do you notice anything unusual? It appears to me (so far) to be the list of the Yellow Turban's NKs in reverse order. Where else have you seen those two names together?

I'm concerned by MP's relationship with Dom this game. I find it odd that MP started off casting doubt on him (refer 2.12 above) and so swiftly turns apparently making him a catalyst for his campaign against timmer and then ended defending Dom so adamantly.

Quin wrote:I've not entirely excluded MP from my suspicion pool but I don't have anything new to adjust my read yet, and I don't want to tunnel based off of a Day 1 ping. I'll give him more time.

One of my votes will be going to marmot. I find it interesting that he's being defensive against 3J about his counter-productive Wilgy votes, rather than being pro-active and questioning me, who was the one who put that part of the argument together. I don't think he's tried to scum hunt at all since he came under fire.

I'm also voting Dom, based on the ping I got from an earlier post (just ISO me - I also mention the marmot there). He abandoned a discussion about something he thought was so clearly suspicious when prodded.

nutella wrote:

TheCapsFan wrote:Took a quick glance at the vote patterns, because I like those, and I could definitely see JJJ as scum.

I'd like to put up a case against Disgruntled Porcupines. The original reason I was drawn to him was because his vote on me was the scummiest.
- Has posted like twice all game, both just saying who he votes for, with no reasoning.
- Day 2, he votes for Russetfinko (alongside MM and JJJ) and timmer, who we know to be town (alongside MP and JJJ once again).
- Day 3, he votes for me and timmer again (alongside MP)
- Always one of the last to vote, and only against people with substantial amounts of votes to their name

This is decent I guess.

Unsure how I feel about CapsFan right now but I could see him and JJJ being MP's teammates I guess.

Golden wrote:

Quin wrote:Reading back, I notice that 3J pretty vehemently opposed my case against MP. He even declared MP one of his top town reads at one point.

I'm coming around to the idea that 3J may have been bad. Would anyone care to pursue this avenue with me?

I also feel as though there is a decent shot Jay was yellow turban. I never trusted him in this game. Didn't trust his self vote for prefect, didn't trust him backing MP's push on nutella...

BUT... playing both sides here... would Jay have been so overt in his support of MP if they were two of a three person team? I feel like thats such a small team that you might need to hide your links more.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Bass_the_Clever wrote:I mean I agree one is easy and one isn't but I feel like a good mafia player would push for the civ against mafia option.

"Good" is a relative term. I know which side I'd be taking if I was a bad guy and it's not that one. To make that proposal (Boomslang's proposal) draws attention to oneself, because it is atypical and it places a civilian read at risk. This at face value sounds problematic, even if there is a perfectly valid rationale for the idea under the surface.

The single most frequent signal that a player is bad is that they aren't thinking critically -- they are taking the surface-most interpretation of posts and basing all of their reads on that. They think in fewer levels of complexity than townies, not because they're dumber but because they already know more about the game than townies know.

If I'm bad in this game, I'm quite content to suggest we pit suspects against each other knowing full well that town's ability to actually determine who should be called "suspects" is inherently flawed. I'd also be confident that there wouldn't be a townie out there telling everyone their initial perspective might be backwards like I'm doing now.

TheCapsFan wrote:Took a quick glance at the vote patterns, because I like those, and I could definitely see JJJ as scum.

I'd like to put up a case against Disgruntled Porcupines. The original reason I was drawn to him was because his vote on me was the scummiest.
- Has posted like twice all game, both just saying who he votes for, with no reasoning.
- Day 2, he votes for Russetfinko (alongside MM and JJJ) and timmer, who we know to be town (alongside MP and JJJ once again).
- Day 3, he votes for me and timmer again (alongside MP)
- Always one of the last to vote, and only against people with substantial amounts of votes to their name

Sorsha wrote:

Quin wrote:

Sorsha wrote:

Quin wrote:Reading back, I notice that 3J pretty vehemently opposed my case against MP. He even declared MP one of his top town reads at one point.

I'm coming around to the idea that 3J may have been bad. Would anyone care to pursue this avenue with me?

I was thinking the same thing when I saw that CapsFan and MP both voted jjj for prefect. What is there to pursue though? He's already dead...

Scenario: We've lynched all but one of a team's baddie, (let's use yellow turbans because that probably resonates most with MP's flip). We spend a number of phases linking interactions between members of the yellow turbans to scumhunt without realising that the nanmans killed the last member three nights ago.

Plainly, it's of benefit to us to have an idea of the identity of any baddies that have been killed by the other team so we can avoid wasting lynches on an already dead baddie team. Of course, we shouldn't operate under the assumption that this is the case, but ..yeah.

Oh, okay.. I thought we would be told when one team was eliminated so I was just thinking of seeing how Caps flips so I didn't think we would still be trying to hunt Yellow Turbans after being told they were all dead.

TheCapsFan wrote:Apologies once again for the second bout of inactivity. Just climbed my way out of the Tartarus that is summer assignments. Senior year. Four AP classes. Lots of work. Yada yada yada.

Sorsha wrote:I'd like to say I find it notable that MovingPictures and TheCapsFan both voted for each other to be prefects. (and they both also voted for jjj )

I'll likely be voting for CapsFan today since I think he voted for one of his teammates in the prefect poll.

I'm town. How could I have known that MP was bad? I voted for two people that I've played with before, once. I didn't (and still don't) know what "prefect" even was.

Oh right, of course, my bad. I believe that some other players have brought up suspicions of you yesterday, you could probably address those if you want to change our minds.

Sorsha wrote:

Quin wrote:Reading back, I notice that 3J pretty vehemently opposed my case against MP. He even declared MP one of his top town reads at one point.

I'm coming around to the idea that 3J may have been bad. Would anyone care to pursue this avenue with me?

I was thinking the same thing when I saw that CapsFan and MP both voted jjj for prefect. What is there to pursue though? He's already dead...

nijuukyugou wrote:

Elohcin wrote:
I am voting MP for sure. But I don't know who to vote second. Any volunteers?

Too true. Especially true, being that the pages for me are loading at a snail's pace. ARGHHHH EVERY PAGE, EVERY CLICK IS LIKE MOLASSES

Well, I managed the last four pages. Well, three, I guess, since this isn't a full page, but that's better than I have been doing all game. And you know what? I got out of it about as much as I thought I would for reading randomly in the middle of the game - people all over the place, not much consensus. So here's where I'll vote.

One vote will be for Sloonei, for semantics. The other day, I managed to catch this post at the top of one of the pages I glanced at and its wording pinged me:

Sloonei wrote:TheCapsFan and Sorsha

Of the candidates with lots of votes, they are the ones I am least inclined to put town reads on right now. TheCapsFan has seemed shaky and non-committal at times. I've not said much about him because I was trying to get more answers out of him before throwing an accusation his way, but that's out the window now.
Sorsha because I've spent the day waiting for her to explain a thing or two, but that never happened.

"I am least inclined to put town reads on right now"? What. Even saying "I'm leaning slightly baddie" or "these guys are in the yellow part of the rainbow" would be more committal than "least inclined to put town reads on." Wishy-washy weirding wording to the max. Unacceptable.

(and oh my god even getting an ISO and getting to the page with that post to quote it is friggin' torture, so no more ISOs/quoting today)

The other will be for Russ, because according to the few people posting, the dude wants to be voted. But hey, I could duel, too! But I'll go with Russ, since I'm not a fan of self-voting.