The Syndicate

Also, I wasn't 'off the wagon' at all. There was no wagon when I placed my vote. You just happened to establish a wagon that wasn't mine.

Golden wrote:We have a deepwolf, and for me it's now about figuring out who it is. Marmot and Quin seem like the likely suspects, to me. But of those two, Quin seems the most suspicious. He was off the wagon yesterday, and keeps pushing marmot./

So, an early vote on quin for me.

1) Quin 1.0 was off the Scotty wagon - was civ. Recycling an already used argument that flopped isn't very creative.
2) Was off the wagon yesterday because I was pushing marmot (don't separate the two) - who is also your supposed second choice. Not sure how x = y here.

Next!

Sloonei wrote:How would you rank the three of us who voted for reywaS?

Sloonei = A bus wasn't really necessary as he was pretty unanimously town-read already.
3J = Self-preservation vote. Not hugely convinced it was a bus because he'd been arguing against Wilgy the past two phases.
marmot = Made a case on him at one point.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Quin wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:I just think he was bussed.
I don't. I just laid out the things I liked from MM. Sloonei could have voted for me and had no trouble supporting that vote with the posts he has made.
This is at face value. I don't know what the lynch poll looked like, but like Sloonei said, he is a prime bus candidate.
I was at work when the lynch happened, so don't have access to the final poll. But it looked something like this.

3 - JaggedJimmyJay [DrWilgy, insertnamehere, Epignosis]
3 - reywaS [Metalmarsh89, JaggedJimmyJay, Sloonei]
1 - Metalmarsh89 [Quin]

I think you had your vote on me?

I did.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:I just think he was bussed.
I don't. I just laid out the things I liked from MM. Sloonei could have voted for me and had no trouble supporting that vote with the posts he has made.
This is at face value. I don't know what the lynch poll looked like, but like Sloonei said, he is a prime bus candidate.
Meh. He was the result of process of elimination. So is DrWilgy.

The PoE meant nothing to Quin 1.0, and means nothing to Quin 2.0.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:I just think he was bussed.
I don't. I just laid out the things I liked from MM. Sloonei could have voted for me and had no trouble supporting that vote with the posts he has made.

This is at face value. I don't know what the lynch poll looked like, but like Sloonei said, he is a prime bus candidate.

Sloonei wrote:
Quin wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:I'm inclined to think DrWilgy is the last mafia. This was all he had to say after reywaS flipped the first time.

DrWilgy wrote:Jay and Epi are bad. GG.
But the thing is, several players looked so... sincere. Epignosis got riled up and called Golden a dingus. I've already pointed out why I think Golden isn't mafia. Jay looked good before the true flip. inh looked alright.

On the other hand, Sloonei looked so-so, and if I'm wrong about Wilgy, Sloonei is another guess for mafia. Quin is possible too. Quin had very little to say after reywaS flipped civilian, and just as little to say after reywaS flipped bad. On the flipside, he had a lot to say before the day ended.

So my rainbow list for mafia looks like this:

Golden
Epignosis
JaggedJimmyJay
insertnamehere
Sloonei
Quin 2.0
DrWilgy
I think sawyer was bussed.
by jiggyjiggyjig?

I just think he was bussed.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:I'm inclined to think DrWilgy is the last mafia. This was all he had to say after reywaS flipped the first time.

DrWilgy wrote:Jay and Epi are bad. GG.
But the thing is, several players looked so... sincere. Epignosis got riled up and called Golden a dingus. I've already pointed out why I think Golden isn't mafia. Jay looked good before the true flip. inh looked alright.

On the other hand, Sloonei looked so-so, and if I'm wrong about Wilgy, Sloonei is another guess for mafia. Quin is possible too. Quin had very little to say after reywaS flipped civilian, and just as little to say after reywaS flipped bad. On the flipside, he had a lot to say before the day ended.

So my rainbow list for mafia looks like this:

Golden
Epignosis
JaggedJimmyJay
insertnamehere
Sloonei
Quin 2.0
DrWilgy

I think sawyer was bussed.

For Day 3, I mean.

G-Man, will we get a lynch poll in the poll thread soon?

Metalmarsh89 wrote:I'm basically confirmed town.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:JaggedJimmyJay bussed Reywas for civ cred. Discuss.

It is a lovely hat.

JaggedJimmyJay bussed Reywas for civ cred. Discuss.

Anyway, I'll try and check in after I wake up.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I know for certain that he hopped from a townie to a townie, so I don't care about that. I think you're biased by it having been about you.

It's unfortunate that you think that.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Would you prefer I just answer now if you're on the way out?
I would.
I think there is room for misinterpretation. The language of your post is "I find this other Scotty stuff suspicious, his deviation from meta less so."

You meant "less so" as in "not suspicious".

Another way to read it is "less suspicious", which is a very different thing. It'd be read as though you've made note of Scotty's deviation from meta as a valid point against him, just not the strongest point. That's not the same thing as "it's not a point against him at all", which was your intent.

I also don't think it's a problem that MM had that perspective while still voting Scotty. That suggests to me that he was thinking about both of you in isolation and making jugments of individual points, like an uninformed townie must. He evidently found Scotty more suspicious that day in the end.

I still don't think there's room for that interpretation. I even said 'meta is meta and not evidence'. I always bring things up that are of interest, even if it's not something that necessarily makes me lean one way or another on a player. But if for some reason he did misinterpret it, I already countered him once explicitly saying that I was arguing it was not suspicious. See below.

Spoiler: show

I still don't have anything to dissuade me from my suspicion that he was just vote hopping on Day 2.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Would you prefer I just answer now if you're on the way out?

I would.

I have to be up early in the morning to prepare for this presentation, so I might be around to make any last minute decisions. No guarantees, though. I don't actually know what time day ends on my end, I just wake up to it. I was hoping he'd be around to talk about this, but I mean, time zones.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:That's inaccurate. I actually said I think Scotty is mafia that Quin 1.0 was not his partner on Day 1. I later said I like Scotty's comment to Quin, at which point my read started to shift.
Could you bring out the posts that illustrate this progression?
Why yes! This one and this one.
This does look like an authentic series of thoughts. I don't know that you'd be inclined to flop around on the Quin read like that as a baddie, since the latter example carries an implied positive for Scotty -- the same guy you were about to murder. It looks more like you were considering isolated points as they came to you and making judgments, which is a town look.

Whaddya think, Quin?

The post that supposedly made him shift was a post where I suggested that Scotty's change in Day 1 tactic was not suspicious. I know marmot read that. I already countered him on this. Neither of those posts explains why he was supporting the accusations against me while still voting the person who said them, and neither of them explain why he felt a 'pressure vote' was appropriate.

Here's the post, for reference. There is zero room for misinterpretation here.

I think Day 1 is much too early for Scotty to be dishing out scum-reads because they haven't stepped up to the plate, so that's mildly suspicious. Also interesting to note that he's straying from his typical 'voting an inactive on Day 1' strategy, which I find less so, because meta is meta and not evidence.

I'm voting marmot for now.

If I'm looking at post histories, it'll have to wait a few hours. I'll probably want to be more in depth than I can be while phone posting.

I need to sort out my feelings towards the INH wagon. I do keep coming back to his 'lynch jay, if good, lynch quin' contingency which doesn't sit well with me at all.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:Because that would be stupid.
Apparently it wouldn't be. *remembers for next time*

I have a feeling this game will go down as a great lesson in WIFOM. The prevailing wisdom around here seems to be: never ever ever listen to anything that is WIFOM ever, it's always meaningless and unreadable and I refuse to listen to it.

Maybe I'll learn what WIFOM means

I forgot to colour my posts, but you'll figure it out, JumpingJollyJack.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:I guess his vote for you isn't ideal, I'd have liked a case from him to back it up. But as it stands, I don't think it's a bus, and you're sitting lower on my rainbow list than he is.

I'm not bothered by his Day 2. From my perspective, the only reason his vote appears to be so uninvested is because of how meaty the Quin 1.0/3J trains were in comparison. In a less active game than this, it'd be put down as Wilgy being Wilgy, and that's how I'm going to perceive it.
"Wilgy being Wilgy" is a cross-alignment phenomenon. That's not "credit". It's hesitation on your part. And I think it's a critical mistake you're making.

It's not. It's typical Wilgy behaviour, mixed with an action that reads civ to me. Even if it was hesitation, 'hesitant' to scum read someone trumps 'confident' to scum read someone.

Quin wrote:It's hardly a save considering every time I put marmot's name forward INH gets put forward as his personal meatshield. It doesn't look like marmot's going to ever be lynched at this rate.
I don't understand your meaning here. I'm not talking about INH. I'll restate my question:

You suggest Marmot bussed Scotty.

I clearly wanted Marmot to vote for INH at the end of Day 1.

He didn't do as I asked, and he cast suspicion on me for asking it.

So, in the universe you're suggesting where Marmot and I are team mates -- Marmot hammered the same baddie I was trying to save. My team mate and I are directly at odds. Moreover, if you think the Scotty lynch was inevitable, then why do you think I tried to prevent it? The exact opposite of what Marmot did. I don't think this makes sense and I am trying to illustrate that for you.

Any suspicion the marmot has thrown upon you seems to have fizzled out quickly. Why didn't you do the exact same thing your teammate did? Because that would be stupid.

Quin wrote:Will you lynch the marmot with me today?
Probably not. I'm not even sure I'd vote for him out of self-preservation. If you can lay out a comprehensive case against him I'd be willing to look it over. To this point I don't really understand why you read him the way you do.

I've made my case against him quite clear. I can ISO him properly tonight, but my gripe is mainly within his voting pattern. It's flimsy, contradictory, and weakly justified. Day 1, he voted Scotty allthewhile he was nodding along to his sussing of Quin 1.0. Day 2, he sat his vote on you as a 'pressure vote' for most of the phase, (I do not understand how a pressure vote could have possibly done anything for anyone at the time) and decided all of a sudden that you'd changed his mind. As far as I'm concerned that was a premeditated baddie move.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Quin, do you really believe that Wilgy placing one vote away from the larger wagons is good reason to remove him from candidacy to be mafia? That strikes me as an incredibly dubious thing.
I didn't remove him anything. You're removing people from it based on a single reason to town read them, which I think is bogus considering I can think of more reasons to scum read many players than town read them. Playing by your logic, however, I think my reason for 'removing him' is a good one. I'm more inclined to scum read anyone who tries to discredit alternative votes than scum read him for sticking to his own suspicion.
The only player I have removed from candidacy for just one reason is leetic, because multiple reasons are impossible with leetic. I believe you agreed with my rationale for him. For everyone else I have provided multiple reasons.

If Wilgy showed any actual investment in his "alternative vote" I might understand your perspective. He slanked out of the spotlight with that vote, and today he's jumped right onto the easiest wagon available without a word. That doesn't bother you?

I guess his vote for you isn't ideal, I'd have liked a case from him to back it up. But as it stands, I don't think it's a bus, and you're sitting lower on my rainbow list than he is.

I'm not bothered by his Day 2. From my perspective, the only reason his vote appears to be so uninvested is because of how meaty the Quin 1.0/3J trains were in comparison. In a less active game than this, it'd be put down as Wilgy being Wilgy, and that's how I'm going to perceive it.

Quin wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:People who suspect me to whatever degree: I have a request/demand for you.

Tell me who my supposed living team mate is.
marmot. I think you have a weak reason to add him to your list of town reads and his voting pattern so far is suspicious.

Sorry about my inactivity, I have been reading, but uni work demotivated me a lot from this today. I'll be sporadically active tomorrow.
Alright, tell me this Quin:

If you think Marmot shouldn't get credit for his Day 1 vote because the Scotty lynch was "inevitable", okay. For the sake of argument I'll go with that.

Why then did I try to "save" the same guy? He's gone anyway the next day, so why am I willfully making myself look like a doofus?

It's hardly a save considering every time I put marmot's name forward INH gets put forward as his personal meatshield. It doesn't look like marmot's going to ever be lynched at this rate.

Will you lynch the marmot with me today?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Quin, do you really believe that Wilgy placing one vote away from the larger wagons is good reason to remove him from candidacy to be mafia? That strikes me as an incredibly dubious thing.

I didn't remove him anything. You're removing people from it based on a single reason to town read them, which I think is bogus considering I can think of more reasons to scum read many players than town read them. Playing by your logic, however, I think my reason for 'removing him' is a good one. I'm more inclined to scum read anyone who tries to discredit alternative votes than scum read him for sticking to his own suspicion.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:People who suspect me to whatever degree: I have a request/demand for you.

Tell me who my supposed living team mate is.

marmot. I think you have a weak reason to add him to your list of town reads and his voting pattern so far is suspicious.

Sorry about my inactivity, I have been reading, but uni work demotivated me a lot from this today. I'll be sporadically active tomorrow.

I generally agree with your reasons to town read certain players, 3J.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I'll state the reasons I can think of to read each player as town (other than those I can't do so for). I'd welcome anyone who disagrees with any point made to state your disagreement. I acknowledge that I could be town reading the wrong person somewhere, and dialogue can help hash that out if so.

Epignosis -- He didn't merely contribute to the Scotty lynch, he did so while pursuing a unique element of suspicion. He wasn't involved with the content that Sloonei and Golden among others found problematic, he was in his own bubble. That strikes me as both typical of a town Epignosis, and just being unlikely team mate behavior in general.

I agree. I think pursuing angles outside of the scope of what most people were talking about is a good look for him.

insertnamehere -- Every argument I've had with him (and I've observed between he and Golden) is reminiscent of arguments we've already had in prior games where INH turned out to be town.

As far as meta reads go, I guess I'm cool with this.

leetic -- Scotty joined my Day 1 vote against leetic in such a way that it appeared an opportunistic move against a low-content player.

I think Scotty made him look good too.

Metalmarsh89 -- He had the opportunity to tie the Day 1 tally at 4-4 between INH and Scotty. He elected to vote for Scotty, effectively securing his lynch, despite having been given a big opening by Sloonei and I to do otherwise.

Like I said earlier, Scotty's lynch was inevitable. I don't see a reason to give him civ cred for jumping on a lynch that likely would've happened the next day if not Day 1 anyway.

Sloonei -- He had more direct influence upon the development of the Scotty wagon than anyone else on Day 1.

My reasons to town read him are the exact same.

~~~

I do not town read MP/reywaS or S~V~S/Wilgy.

I have my own reason to town-read Wilgy, which I've brought up. You've pointed out why Wilgy can't be the SK, and I agree. That makes him town in my book. A lack of cause to town-read sawyer doesn't convince me that he's bad, though. I've got stronger cases against people who were involved in Day 2 I would rather pursue.

leetic logged in yesterday, so it's possible that he was here to send in a kill.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:
Quin wrote:'Quin' has been mentioned 275 times so far in this game. 'Quin' was mentioned 897 times in Turf Wars.
We're at 316 now, folks.
So how about all those town reads of mine. Am I wrong about someone?

I don't agree with your reasons for town-reading the marmot, but I appreciate the points you're making. That's off the top of my head, I'll do you one better when I've had lunch and made some more progress with my presentation.

Quin wrote:'Quin' has been mentioned 275 times so far in this game. 'Quin' was mentioned 897 times in Turf Wars.

We're at 316 now, folks.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:I could entertain the idea that Wilgy is the serial killer, based on two ideas that come to mind, but I have no reason to even look at sawyer right now.

1) Wilgy made sure to stay out of the two main wagons Day 2 (I initially town read this, but it is also fitting for an indie)
2) You set him up as the Day 3 lynch, so he killed your main supporter and is now trying to lynch you
I think #1 is scummy and #2 could as easily be scummy as indie. I think Golden was right and the mafia team killed him for it. They left me around so they could popcorn the day away while I get guillotined. Golden being right would mean I am also right, but who's gonna listen to JJJ anyway?

I disagree with #1, but you knew that already. I'd believe you on #2 if it weren't for the fact that I think you're bad.

What do you think Golden was right about?

btw, I did look at your ISO and you're good as far as your read on Rico. With this in mind, give me your serial killer case.

I could entertain the idea that Wilgy is the serial killer, based on two ideas that come to mind, but I have no reason to even look at sawyer right now.

1) Wilgy made sure to stay out of the two main wagons Day 2 (I initially town read this, but it is also fitting for an indie)
2) You set him up as the Day 3 lynch, so he killed your main supporter and is now trying to lynch you

Silly Quin got straight out of bed and found out that Ricochet and Golden got killed and for some reason decided to mash them up into one event.

I see it as a very unlikely scenario that Jay killed Golden. Going off what I've read, Jay was coming into Day 3 on very thin ice. Killing his biggest supporter right now is basically a suicide mission.

I think it's possible that he killed Rico. One of the things I read when I woke up was his reasons for town-reading every player (bar the few he couldn't) and Ricochet's stood out to me. It looks incredibly lacking. As for the latter part of this defence, in my first game here I was bad and I made damn sure I asked every question and started every conversation on the main thread exactly for this reason. Initially I thought this was a weak defence for a teammate, but obviously the night post overruled that. But what it could also have been was a half-hearted defence for someone who was about to die.

Ricochet -- His true effort level is low enough that I don't get the impression he has manipulative intent. Scotty engaged him with OT chatter that could have happened in a BTSC if they shared one.

So he's not really 'looking good', but he does make me want to pursue another train of thought. By no means am I feeling better about 3J, but I'm going to spend today looking at who would kill Golden, because I think that's the serial killer.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:that nightkill is too clean.
What do you mean by "too clean"?

I overthought it, but your biggest supporter being killed is a good look for you. I have some thoughts id like to share but ill wait until I've gotten my shit sorted before I do

that nightkill is too clean.

I have to get this powerpoint presentation done by tonight, so I'm forcing myself off of my many distractions until it's done. I'll check in again right before I go to bed.

Maybe Ricochet will have given me a straight answer by then. Who knows?

Ricochet wrote:
Quin wrote:
Why did you elect to ignore your personal suspicion of 3J and vote for me just because I was on a PoE (yet again, which is prone to baddie manipulation)?

I think you need to explain to me exactly how this thing works because I do not see how a collective PoE cannot be prone to baddie manipulation.

The Quin 1.0 and Quin 2.0 thing really has gone out the window, hasn't it?

I have a secret to share.

Guys,
I'm Quin 1.0.

Ricochet wrote:
Quin wrote:Strong town
Golden

Mild town
Sloonei
Epignosis

Neutral
leetic
reywaS
DrWilgy

Mild bad
insertnamehere
metalmarsh89
ricochet
JaggedJimmyJay

Why did you elect to ignore your personal suspicion of 3J and vote for me just because I was on a PoE (yet again, which is prone to baddie manipulation)?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:He's already got his defence here ready, but reading of any kind based on emoticon usage is...a horrible case. My emoticon usage has shit all to do with my alignment and everything to do with my emotions at the time. Couple that with this discussion is ongoing with marmot who I don't feel fantastic about sets off alarm bells.
I agree that a case based around emoticons is not a strong one. I don't believe that's the relevant detail though -- I'm not assessing the strength of Marmot's post, I'm assessing the honesty of Marmot's post. I made a number of dubious gut reads in that early stage because that's how I play Mafia. This was pretty much the same as me giving you a positive nod for using caps lock. Those were real reads. They weren't reads I'd invest myself immensely in, but they were real. Reads are stupid early in a game, and I embrace that. I state my stupid reads.

I looked further at the context and I agree he sounds honest.

Quin wrote:Golden used the 'just because it's easy doesn't make it bad' defence when I accused him of taking the easy route when coming up with potential teammates. I know you read it, but you didn't seem interested in that. Also, on what planet do townies lie more easily?
Is there a reason I should have been interested in that? I agree with Golden's logic. Whether townies lie more than baddies can be debated; I think it depends upon how one defines "lie" in that context. It is true that baddies provide a number of false reads, all of which can be called "lies". They're implicit in the nature of the game though. I was referring to lies which doesn't necessarily have to exist for Mafia to work -- on that front I certainly lie more as a townie than as a baddie. I fake night actions, I fake confident reads, I fling the nastiest sort of poop without provocation -- these are all reactionary tactics that I have tried in my town skin. I don't think I'm alone in that style.

I apologise, I didn't give you full context here. I was suggesting that while you didn't scrutinise Golden for this post, you did scrutinise someone else for pretty much the same thing. I cannot find said post after going through your post history AGAIN, so either I'm forgetting what it said, or I was mistaking you for someone else.

Quin wrote:You don't get immunity from having your game criticised just because the person civ-read you once. Wasn't it you who said this:

Spoiler: show
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:My objective is to generate a game thread which promotes the highest-possible chance of facilitating strong reads. I change my mind more than anyone I know for this reason -- the only read that matters is the one that accompanies a final vote. Everything else is a part of the process of arriving at that final vote.
It seems contradictory that you'd act so aggressively to someone who's just trying to do the same thing you do.
I don't think INH was ever doing that. His griping about my play while calling me his strongest town read could serve him no real purpose. From the perspective of a town INH, that should be viewed as a pointless effort, and I said as much. I was probably acting as much on annoyance as relevant Mafia pursuit at that point because INH wouldn't shut the hell up about it. I have been doing things my way for a long time, and when someone complains about it without offering any actual alternative it's really annoying.

It wasn't 'while' he was calling you his strongest at all. Things change. It's perfectly clear that by the time this conversation comes around he's starting to trust you less. I get that having your game criticised without being given an alternative is annoying, but I don't see how that's relevant here, because I'm not interpreting it as simple criticism.

Quin wrote:This is a meta read. Curious he looked for a game in which he was bad and didn't think to back it up with a game where he was civ. For the record, here's a civ INH in Triskaedekaphobia also not taking Day 1 accusations seriously. Or are you segmenting the two because the former seems 'funnier'?
That was the point. I had already said earlier in the game that this was behavior associated with civilian INH. I went looking for a contrary example to determine if that prior read was inspired by an illogical mindset -- and I determined it was. So I ceased to give him credit for it.

Where did you do this? I found the post were you drew associations between this game and Triskaidekaphobia, but that conversation was not about whether he took Day 1 suspicions seriously. It was about his opposition to your methods.

Quin wrote:He's on both sides of the fence on a Scotty lynch.
I was never enthusiastic about the Scotty lynch. Until the very end of Day 1, I was never enthusiastic about stopping it either. It just didn't inspire me. Oh well.

Okay.

Quin wrote:I didn't like this interaction then and I don't now. 3J has always been for alternatives, and even if he suggests that he doesn't support mine because he doesn't agree with it, I think it's suspicious that he'd try and discredit my vote by saying it had no utility, even with the case I had behind it.
Sloonei was never going to be lynched on Day 1, and it doesn't take a superpower of projection to say that. I thought you opted to camp your vote in a place where it had close to no chance of mattering, and I said so. That this happened while other suspects were garnering tally attention was the problem for me. I've seen baddies do that shit and I didn't like it when you did it.

I vote outside the main wagons all the time. If I'm extremely confident that someone is bad, I'm gonna vote for them. I didn't do it to skirt the sidelines, I fully intended to fight for that lynch, and I did.

Quin wrote:I'd go so far as to say Sloonei was the reason Scotty was lynched. You haven't made a single hint towards your thinking that he could have been bussed by Sloonei, so I see how you could think that Sloonei was suspicious here, whether he actually voted Scotty or not.
Incorrect.

Prove me wrong.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Well I'm going to need to reprocess everything in light of that.
Mmhm. I feel much better about sloonei now.
I might actually feel worse.

I don't know, I'm going to try to block it all out until I have time to reassess objectively.
This is good, I also have doubts about you. You were opposed to the Scotty wagon from the moment it started. You pounced on INH with me as soon as the alternative arose. Your other big suspect has been leetic, who has three posts which are largely unsubstantial.
If my goal is to save my partner, I never need your INH CFD. I stay on leetic and I push that case.

I wasn't "opposed to the Scotty wagon from the moment it started". At one point I even said I was content with it. I didn't take a harder stance against it until the EOD sequence during which you did the same thing. And props to Scotty, I'm a boob. I shouldn't have done that. But shit happens.

The reason my immediate reaction to the new reveal features new doubt about you is the pre-flip town projection Beck was referring to. I didn't care about it at when I really believed Scotty was town, but it has new meaning when he appears town but actually isn't. The same CFD attempt I took part in was your own creation. With a little time to think about it though I am not inclined to attack you for this. The CFD was always relatively unlikely to come to fruition, and I don't know that you'd be so sloppy as to peel away from your team mate at the last minute for a hail mary CFD.
You may or may not agree with my logic, but I provided it.

I do not know what this is doing here.

Quin wrote:Why does marmot deserve civ cred here? I don't really get your leetic thing here but I have nothing bad to say about it.

Everything from about this point here that stands out to me is that 3J is crumbing his intention to vote for me, but he's standing back and saying 'hey, I get it! I just want to gather more information!'
I've already talked about that Marmot vote repeatedly. Just go find it.

You've put it down as being a 'hammer vote'. My question stands. He shouldn't have been given civ cred so loosely for jumping on the inevitable. Scotty's lynch was dead set.

I was never "crumbing my intention to vote for you". I didn't place my vote because I didn't know what I wanted to do with it. The only thing from you that I really wanted to hear was your read on Golden, and I didn't take a stance until you provided that read. If you had been more antagonistic against Golden I probably wouldn't have voted for you. There's no way for you to know I'm telling the truth here, but that's what it is.

I don't believe you wanted a civ Quin 1.0 to scum read Golden. Your argument to suggest that civ reading him was a scum-tell was riddled with confirmation bias. Your argument is that 'if I don't think a guy is bad because he's confident that I am, I must be bad'

~~~ Insert spoiler-screwed recreation of my own Quin/Scotty interaction analysis. I don't want to dig through this HTML mess to find points, so if you made any here that you want to hear about just say so.~~~

The ones that got butchered were just three of a larger number. Your EoD pretty much consisted of openings for your to take at a moments notice.

Quin wrote:And then there's this little number.

Spoiler: show
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:At this point Quin, I'm not certain how far defending yourself can realistically take you. Whether you end up lynched or not, the best thing for the town faction would be for you to focus purely on hunting for baddies and leaving us with a legacy. If it's good enough shit, the votes might evaporate anyway. I say this mostly because it's what I'd most like to see; I've already seen the defenses and I can conjure them before they are shown to me. Give me the suspects.

The choice is yours obviously.
Clearly the scumhunting I have been doing isn't good enough for him. He's going on about legacies, which also raises alarms. Just because I'm dead doesn't mean my scumhunting is right. I don't trust this, I think this is a massive discredit job and a way to try and shut me up.
I did the exact opposite of "try to shut you up". I did the exact opposite of "discredit" you. I wanted you to use your time wisely. You clearly disagreed about how time is used wisely. I gave you the advice that I later took myself: I didn't waste my time defending myself against your mega-ISO and instead focused on what was important to the town faction. You don't have to agree with the mindset, but it's one I've promoted in nearly every town game I've played since about 2013.

Defending myself was a wise decision, and best for the town. I maintain that. I would much prefer to give you the tools to analyse how people reacted to my defence, who accepted it, who didn't, and give you a meaty lynch poll and thread than give you the reads I could have come up with which may or may not have been correct. Telling me that defending myself isn't realistic is most definitely an attempt to shut me up.

Quin wrote:And then this. It just furthers my opinion that he's preparing for me to get all my posts out so that he can fake a now-informed vote. He intended to vote for me long ago, he just wants to look good doing it.
The Golden read. What I was looking for was some iteration of "I suspect Golden". I didn't get it, I didn't buy it, I thought you were bad. I was wrong. Shit happens.

See above.

If I get lynched, Quin 1.0 will know the feeling.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:3J I'll respond to that after my lynch analysis.
I'm down for this action if you have the time, Quin.

I forgot. It'll take some time so I'll do it after dinner. Pinky promise.

Golden wrote:
Epignosis wrote:I'll make it plain then, and I'm sorry to resort to this kind of thing but, you've caught no mafia. None.

I got results. You didn't. Golden didn't. Neener Neener.
Lol. Was on Scotty before you. Neener Neener.

And I don't suspect you.[/quote]

I mean, there is really no more places to take this than to epi going so far to discredit the method that it's about 'who is better'.

I told you already epi, I don't care if yours is longer. You can have the best townie game of all time, be on fire, nailing everyone. I'll say good job!

The concept of a PoE doesn't eliminate the need for good case work. Not one person has ever objected to the CASE on Quin. You didn't at the time either. INH said it was a good case.

You seem to think that being right makes you more likely to be right the next time. I think you'll find that isn't true.[/quote]

Quin objected to the case on Quin

Golden wrote:
Quin wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:I think we should react upon the utter shit heap that occurred over the past few phases rather than put our votes on people who were not involved.
If there's a scum among them, how do we win?

That was a serious question. If there's an answer I'm missing, please lemme have it.
I didn't say 'never lynch them'. But we've just had 2 phases of the most meaningful and meaty contributions I've ever seen and you want to ignore all of that and focus the few who weren't involved.
Isn't a possible outcome of 'meaty contributions' that you are able to identify that all those involved were town? I would disagree with 'focussing on wilgy and rey'. There isn't much to focus on. Analyse other stuff. But focussing on them and ending up lynching one of them, are two different things in my book.

Do you support lynching one of the two tomorrow, then?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:I didn't say 'never lynch them'. But we've just had 2 phases of the most meaningful and meaty contributions I've ever seen and you want to ignore all of that and focus the few who weren't involved.
Tell me why I want to lynch them.

Because they weren't involved?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:I think we should react upon the utter shit heap that occurred over the past few phases rather than put our votes on people who were not involved.
If there's a scum among them, how do we win?

That was a serious question. If there's an answer I'm missing, please lemme have it.

I didn't say 'never lynch them'. But we've just had 2 phases of the most meaningful and meaty contributions I've ever seen and you want to ignore all of that and focus the few who weren't involved.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:I think we should react upon the utter shit heap that occurred over the past few phases rather than put our votes on people who were not involved.
If there's a scum among them, how do we win?

I think we should react upon the utter shit heap that occurred over the past few phases rather than put our votes on people who were not involved.

Strong town
Golden

Mild town
Sloonei
Epignosis

Neutral
leetic
reywaS
DrWilgy

Mild bad
insertnamehere
metalmarsh89
ricochet
JaggedJimmyJay

Golden, do you have a rainbow list right now? Should I ask Epignosis?

I feel like if Luffy were playing this game he'd have some sort of breakdown.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Finally, the guy with 55 posts nobody seems to care about. Last game I played with him people talked about him so much I got sick of it, so maybe everyone else is sick too? But we gotta face Quin too eventually.

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