The Syndicate

Epignosis wrote:
Quin wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
juliets wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:All:

Tell me why we shouldn't lynch Elohcin.
She's not here to defend herself, which I know is an "old-school" reason not to Lynch someone but you asked.
But it's not like she hasn't had lots of opportunity to be here to defend herself. We told her she was a suspect yesterday and she asked for more time, which we gave her.
She hasn't had lots of opportunity. She literally hasn't been home all day.
Who's on your short list?
Other than her, you. I don't like lynching for information, but that seems to be what you want. Were this a fully open-setup Heist, I wouldn't bother, because you could be killed and then I would know your role. You seem to want everybody to know your role.

My role is insignificant. I know there's some damn good arguments to be made against me and I know I'm basically immune from night kills now. I don't want to stick around until LYLO and have the baddies turn on me then. It's just a matter of damage control.

Epignosis wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
juliets wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:All:

Tell me why we shouldn't lynch Elohcin.
She's not here to defend herself, which I know is an "old-school" reason not to Lynch someone but you asked.
But it's not like she hasn't had lots of opportunity to be here to defend herself. We told her she was a suspect yesterday and she asked for more time, which we gave her.
She hasn't had lots of opportunity. She literally hasn't been home all day.

Who's on your short list?

juliets wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Quin wrote:What's the gist of the case against Eloh 2.0?
Her vote against Wilgy was opportunistically timed, the timing and circumstances of her replacing back in are suspicious (although I am less sympathetic to this part of the case, as expounded by Epignosis) and she asked for a day to explain herself and then promptly disappeared. Her predecessor, AP, was basically an absentee.

Bad voting record. Bad participation. That combined with the process of elimination I outlined above makes me thing she is surely bad.
Again, I would leave participation on Thursdays out of the equation.
But then why did she ask for a day to prove herself if she wasn't going to be here?

I think you're taking it too literally. I don't think we should be throwing suspicion at her just because she didn't post within the period she asked for. 'Give me a day to prove myself' can just as easily mean 'Give me a chance' to me.

The suspect pool is narrow but there's no room for a pass while we wait on content. Ok.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:I don't know why this would mean anything. They have changed, for the most part.

linki: Because she is a less-than promising candidate. She feels like a good Day 1 lynch right now. That doesn't fly here.
It would mean that you're either very stubborn or you're fake. Neither is ideal. I think you are 0 for 3 in your Boomslang/llama/JJJ triumvirate and those seem to be the names you've been most interested in hanging for quite some time now. I have a new challenge for you:

Tell me why your suspects are civilians.

Boomslang was early to vote for two baddies. Wilgy tried to save DDL with a llama vote. I have no reason to view you as a civilian.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Hey Quin, somewhere in your lamentations about being so sorely wrong in this game so far, have you considered reassessing your reads?
You know, contrary to popular belief, I don't just ride my conclusions to hell.
Your current suspicions appear to be the same as they were on Day 1 for the most part.

I don't know why this would mean anything. They have changed, for the most part.

linki: Because she is a less-than promising candidate. She feels like a good Day 1 lynch right now. That doesn't fly here.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Hey Quin, somewhere in your lamentations about being so sorely wrong in this game so far, have you considered reassessing your reads?

You know, contrary to popular belief, I don't just ride my conclusions to hell.

Sorsha wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:What's the gist of the case against Eloh 2.0?
~ Process of elimination

~ Her suspicions of Epi and I look fake

~ She requested an extension and didn't do anything with it

~ Her Wilgy vote was too late to mean anything, and when she answered to that it was pretty much to second my own comments.

~ I am less personally invested in the circumstantial replacement-relevant suspicion, but it exists.
I guess this has blossomed into more than just the circumstantial case Epi gave when she replaced back in.

I could go this route today since no one wants to vote jay with me.

He's also an option.

insertnamehere wrote:Quin. Would you be willing to vote Llama with me?

Yuh.

I can't really suspect her for her absence or lack or participation. I've seen active baddie Eloh's and inactive baddie Eloh's. Ultimately I think I just suck at reading activity levels as an indication of alignment.

I agree that her voting record since subbing back in sucks. It was insignificant since the train was already a runaway.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:
~ I am less personally invested in the circumstantial replacement-relevant suspicion, but it exists.

I hope so. The next person who pulls this as a valid reason to suspect her is gonna get it.

What's the gist of the case against Eloh 2.0?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:
insertnamehere wrote:If I'm not in imminent danger of being lynched, I'd probably be most inclined to vote Quin today. The truth of the matter is that until the whole "1 baddie in the LC/Quin/INH" trio thing is debunked, my head is gonna be on the chopping block.

I'd rather get ahead and save my head by voting Quin, who has been in my shortlist of suspects for a while now. It's a high risk/high reward situation. Until the possible baddie in the trio is caught, I'm going to keep taking heat, and the civilians will be stuck with the same topics of conversation. If I'm wrong about Quin, I also accept that I will almost definitely be going home D5.

I'm willing to take that risk.
I'd rather you did vote me. The fact that I'm still alive is off-putting and I think that there's some serious shit going on behind the scenes. I'll even self-vote if it comes to that.
If you're a civilian I would urge you not to do that. There are numerous ways where your alignment could become more evident than it is right now. You're not an obligatory lynch in this or any phase.

I'm either voting for llama, Boomslang or myself. I might not be an obligatory lynch, but I am a beneficial one.

insertnamehere wrote:If I'm not in imminent danger of being lynched, I'd probably be most inclined to vote Quin today. The truth of the matter is that until the whole "1 baddie in the LC/Quin/INH" trio thing is debunked, my head is gonna be on the chopping block.

I'd rather get ahead and save my head by voting Quin, who has been in my shortlist of suspects for a while now. It's a high risk/high reward situation. Until the possible baddie in the trio is caught, I'm going to keep taking heat, and the civilians will be stuck with the same topics of conversation. If I'm wrong about Quin, I also accept that I will almost definitely be going home D5.

I'm willing to take that risk.

I'd rather you did vote me. The fact that I'm still alive is off-putting and I think that there's some serious shit going on behind the scenes. I'll even self-vote if it comes to that.

Boomslang wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Boomslang, it'd be ideal for you to at least answer to Quin's allegations.

oh hi, linki
I voted for you because I thought you were in the wrong about LC and being overly pushy/thread-controlling about it. If Quin calls that "disingenuous," that's his problem, not mine. I've stepped back from that position after your immunity claim, because think that claim was a civ move meant to get the town moving in more productive lynch directions, which it in fact did. My line about returning suspicion was meant to reflect that the lynch was not in fact tied in the poll—Quin had the vote lead. I had assumed people would thus go for Quin first, and then pursue other targets at their leisure, but conveniently he wasn't on the Day 3 poll.

Linki w/Quin: You're just mad because I found your other teammate.

It was a tie with an almost even split between half the players. Half a player roster doesn't go after the one with seemingly the most votes just because there was a tie. This just feels fake as shit.

Boomslang wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Boomslang, it'd be ideal for you to at least answer to Quin's allegations.

oh hi, linki
I voted for you because I thought you were in the wrong about LC and being overly pushy/thread-controlling about it. If Quin calls that "disingenuous," that's his problem, not mine. I've stepped back from that position after your immunity claim, because think that claim was a civ move meant to get the town moving in more productive lynch directions, which it in fact did. My line about returning suspicion was meant to reflect that the lynch was not in fact tied in the poll—Quin had the vote lead. I had assumed people would thus go for Quin first, and then pursue other targets at their leisure, but conveniently he wasn't on the Day 3 poll.

Linki w/Quin: You're just mad because I found your other teammate.

Then put your damn money where your mouth is and prove it.

thellama73 wrote:I've changed my mind. I think all the remaining players should vote for Elohcin 2.0.

Why?

I mean, look at this:

Spoiler: show

Boomslang wrote:Alright, finally catching up on all of this. Biggest thread of the thread so far seems to be the Sorsha/Llama spat, and I'm leaning slightly bad on Sorsha because of it. I think JJJ's analysis of the response timing and nature is useful:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote: I can understand. It's jarring for anyone to be facing an accusation so quickly after a game begins. His accusation came two minutes after your post, as you said, and then your joke response to that came 11 minutes after that. To me that looks a player who is briefly frozen by unexpected pressure searching for a way to approach it.

Sorsha wrote:All for one line and an emoticon? Seriously? How am I supposed to respond to that?
In terms of defense, you're probably not supposed to respond to that. Some accusations don't facilitate defense. It isn't ideal, but a civilian must still render them when they apply. Instead of a defense, I would anticipate a more exploratory response to llama than the one you provided -- even if you believed it was a joke.
However, I think JJJ got away with blaming Sorsha for the use of timestamps. Sorsha just used the phrase "literally two minutes" to describe llama's post. JJJ then emphasizes Sorsha's own timing on his own, and in a later post says, "I wasn't going to mention the timestamps until you brought them up first." That strikes me as shifty.

LC makes an interesting read about Quin buffing up post count through repeated pokes at the same idea (lack of overlap in JJJ's reads). Leaning slightly good on him for that and the follow up posts.

I disagree with INH that llama is pushing a narrative that benefits him. He left his own name off the blender/hunter list, and I don't think he made the strong claim to hunterdom that INH is suggesting.

Epi makes a simple but sensible read on DDL's inconsistency. And DDL has since posted, but not addressed it.

MM feels honest about his minor frustration over the state of game.

Will cast vote once things develop more/I drink it in.

Spoiler: show

He's talked about me more than he has anybody else and never has he said anything that might put him off voting for me. I'm pretty sure that just now was his first post talking about Made. He already wants to vote for him. Whatever.

Boomslang mentions his suspicion of me in every second post yet conveniently hasn't put his money where his mouth is once in this game. If a baddie was going to keep me around and then get rid of me at LYLO, it'd be Boomslang.

My shortlist is still the same. People just gotta tell me where they want to put their votes and I'll follow suit.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:I suspect Boomslang for actual reasons. ISO, fam.
I ISO'd, fam.

These are the posts I found in your history in which you cast suspicion upon Boomslang for reasons unrelated to his survival:

Spoiler: show
Quin wrote:Boomslang, did you read the entire discourse between me and LC? I struggle to see how you can be on board with the 'boosting my post count' idea if you had done so.

I also disagree with your stance on 3J. I'd ideally have done the same thing, because it allows Sorsha to confirm or deny whether she was watching the thread without realising it.

Quin wrote:You're expecting me to come out guns blazing at the onset of suspicion, Boomslang. He used the wrong word to describe my posts, and I told him I thought he was wrong. He elaborated, so I elaborated in turn. It's not 'deflecting' if I address the point, either, so there's another instance of people using buzz words that don't fit. I think to say now that you think LC's point had merit shows that you didn't really evaluate what you read, because whatever point he made was quickly refuted, and even he didn't pursue it. Unless, of course, you want to tell me that my three posts were insistent, even with my elaboration of their contexts.

about Sorsha - Maybe I can rephrase, because I was painting it a bit too cut and dry. If Sorsha is being legitimate about not being around, she'd say so. That doesn't really say anything about whether she's good or bad, just that she wasn't around. If she didn't bring it up, it heavily points to the idea that she was around, and it adds value to 3J's thought process.

Quin wrote:I feel like I should elaborate on my Boomslang read.

He's come across as disingenuous twice in his cases against me.

The first time, he jumped on LC's theory that I was being insistent by pushing my argument against 3J. This was after I discussed it with LC and even he moved on from that specific element of his argument. He still assures me that he read the dialogue to the end, which clearly isn't true.

The second time, he accused me of backtracking in my theory as to why he survived, even though nobody had expressed suspicion at me for it at the time. Backtracking isn't a thing in that context.

He's not voting me either. He wants to bring attention to 3J, so he's not voting me. Even though he's suspected me more than anybody else in this game. Nah.

I'd call a baddie team of llama, 3J and Boomslang.
It appears all of this suspicion you have of Boomslang (these posts are all Day 2 or earlier) stems from the direct interaction between you and him. A couple questions:

1. What worries do you have, if any, about being influenced by bias?

2. Do Boomslang's voting record or his survival mean anything to you or no?

Hey Quin

1. None. It's just a read.

2. His survival doesn't. His votes for baddies are a point in his favour, but his (at the time) throwaway on Day 2 came across completely disingenuous. He hasn't returned to elaborate on that read except to give a wonky justification that proclaiming your lynch immunity makes you civ.

Boomslang wrote:Back in the saddle for the moment. Some thoughts:
I wouldn't play JJJ's lynch immunity the way he just did, but I'm tempted to believe him. Doing it like this feels like a civ move, because he couldn't know for sure when suspicion would come back on him. If he uses immunity while suspicion is still hot, and proclaims it, he does make the civs more likely to lynch a baddie.
However, I still don't believe LC is bad, based mostly off his interactions with JJJ.
Wilgy definitely looks weird. Casting an incredibly wide net, throwing tinfoil at me despite "all rational thinking." I'm ok with a vote there, especially because we can't get Quin and probably can't/shouldn't get JJJ.

INH probably deserves more of a look. Went very quiet after Day 1, the result of which spoke against his llama case (which was his tunnel). He claimed he was going to reassess things, but has since stayed under the radar.

He was literally tied for the lynch the day before. I think it's obvious that returning suspicion wasn't going to surprise him.

Made wrote:
Quin wrote: Where did your suspicion for 3J go?
Still there, but with Wilgy flipped baddie, I feel it's more likely between you and INH. Both INH and JJJ voted early, but INH vote set precedence for a JJJ lynch. Where JJJ had every reason to vote for a more likely candidate considering he had a lot of heat at that point, his vote kinda came out of left field. While misguided, it reads genuine, especially when coupled with his recent thoughts in thread.

There are two baddies left.

Question for Made:

Where did your suspicion for 3J go? The other day you chose to lynch him over me, and now it's either me or INH? It sounds to me like you just want to be on a leading wagon.

I'm serious about my suggestion that you lynch me today, for the record. All keeping me alive is doing right now is giving the baddies an opportunity to keep me alive until LYLO and then get rid of me then. I look too shitty for redemption. I'm already seeing counter wagons being set up for EoD.

If you are going to vote away from me, I'd endorse votes among llama or 3J. I'm excluded Boomslang just because I think if one of llama or 3J flip bad, there's a high probability of them being teammates.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:The 'Eloh subbed in after being an informed role blocker therefore she's not likely to be civ this time' thing isn't actually a thing. We all know what the deal was with Eloh 1.0 and to pretend otherwise is foolhardy. We're on an even playing field in relation to whatever information she had.
How do you feel about her independent of that point?

I'd still lean bad. Her vote was in the realm of insignificance, and I could see it as a bus attempt.

I feel like I've said it once already, but since people are bringing it up again I'm gonna have to repeat myself.

The whole 'mafia killed one of their own to frame me' theory, which is what is being defined as the tinfoil part of my game so far, wasn't an accusation. It was a reason to believe that we shouldn't be giving Boomslang unwarranted trust because he was the night kill target.

I suspect Boomslang for actual reasons. ISO, fam.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:~ He acknowledged in the sign-up thread that he has a tinfoil reputation,
This is news to me.
I might be remembering incorrectly, because I can't find it now. I thought I recalled you saying something like "I never tinfoil. " in response to someone else's light-hearted poke in some recent thread somewhere.

I know what your referring to. DDL was talking about that huge ass game on another site and mentioned that all he needed was a Quin in tinfoil mode and the thread would explode.

The 'Eloh subbed in after being an informed role blocker therefore she's not likely to be civ this time' thing isn't actually a thing. We all know what the deal was with Eloh 1.0 and to pretend otherwise is foolhardy. We're on an even playing field in relation to whatever information she had.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:~ He acknowledged in the sign-up thread that he has a tinfoil reputation,

This is news to me.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Long Con wrote:The poll ended in a tie, so we get no night post.
And no nightkill!

Yall need a break

Long Con wrote:
Quin wrote:
Long Con wrote:
Quin wrote:I don't think people have really talked about the sock that's that much yet. I'd like to know people's thoughts on it, especially about whether he/she should be trusted. I don't feel like they've said anything of value to us in the three nights they've been around.
Yeah, I haven't been paying too much attention. "Watch out for low posters." Uh huh. I'm also not that into the Cockney thing. Did Jean Genie mention something about info? I don't remember, maybe. Hasn't been enough of a presence, and no one has engaged.
He mentioned that he had info, but then admitted he didn't. He just wanted us to look at low posters. It's not particularly....................................inspiring.
At this point, I don't think it has a big impact on the game. Probably the secret role, aka JJJ, has the ability to post in the thread as Jean Genie.

You think 3J is the secret role?

Don't take that as some sort of hint any which way. People just use that word way too much.

Long Con wrote:
Quin wrote:I don't think people have really talked about the sock that's that much yet. I'd like to know people's thoughts on it, especially about whether he/she should be trusted. I don't feel like they've said anything of value to us in the three nights they've been around.
Yeah, I haven't been paying too much attention. "Watch out for low posters." Uh huh. I'm also not that into the Cockney thing. Did Jean Genie mention something about info? I don't remember, maybe. Hasn't been enough of a presence, and no one has engaged.

He mentioned that he had info, but then admitted he didn't. He just wanted us to look at low posters. It's not particularly....................................inspiring.

I don't think people have really talked about the sock that's that much yet. I'd like to know people's thoughts on it, especially about whether he/she should be trusted. I don't feel like they've said anything of value to us in the three nights they've been around.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Long Con wrote:
Long Con wrote:I think this Denim Shirt angle is a long shot.
I mean Denim Suit, not Shirt.
Do you have any inkling of what the "confuse" mechanic in that role might entail?

I can list off a few that have gone through my head;

- Controlled or random vote
- Post restriction (rather like a curse)
- Controlled or random role use
- False information

Long Con wrote:
Quin wrote:Meh. I'm basically Dom in Mad Max right now

I'm 2 for 2 on the count of throwing untimely defenses for flipped baddies and I've had a now-dead civ role blocker call me out on the night nobody died. I'm sure there's a point where even a civ just needs to put his hands up and say 'get it over with'. I've hit that point. I'll probably join 3J on the legacy front tomorrow.

This is the second game in a row I've suggested my own lynch. God damn.
Yeah, I'm feeling a Quin or INH lynch.

Is this INH suspicion new?

Meh. I'm basically Dom in Mad Max right now

I'm 2 for 2 on the count of throwing untimely defenses for flipped baddies and I've had a now-dead civ role blocker call me out on the night nobody died. I'm sure there's a point where even a civ just needs to put his hands up and say 'get it over with'. I've hit that point. I'll probably join 3J on the legacy front tomorrow.

This is the second game in a row I've suggested my own lynch. God damn.

I actually am a little worried that LC has been trying to keep me in his pocket. That's not really something I can justify though.

thellama73 wrote:^ I find it hard to believe that INH would have asked Wilgy if he was down for a Llama lynch in thread. Being teammates, he would already know the answer to that. I feel better about INH from this ISO

I don't know why you find this hard to believe. Knowing the answer isn't really much of a deterrent from asking him if they're both bad.

thellama73 wrote:I personally think Jay looks awful today. Hemming and hawing about maybe voting for Wilgy and then switching to Made for, IMO, weak reasons.

Quin's continued suspicion of Boomslang is borderline insane. I genuinely don't know what to make of his play. If it were not for the lynch survival, I would be sure he was bad, although that survival could still have been the result of a tie.

It was the result of a tie.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Quin, in specific terms please state your current read on Boomslang.
Hasn't changed. Asking people to stop tin foiling him doesn't help, it both discredits the variety of arguments against him and pushes the agenda that he should somehow be cleared by now.
Or it just makes a lot more sense that he's town. You are starting to remind me of the "Dom is bad no matter what lalalalala" Quin from Mad Max.
Maybe. Or he's your baddie teammate.
lol okay

I thought I had that position reserved for llama, but it turns out he's interchangeable. You're the only constant.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Quin, in specific terms please state your current read on Boomslang.
Hasn't changed. Asking people to stop tin foiling him doesn't help, it both discredits the variety of arguments against him and pushes the agenda that he should somehow be cleared by now.
Or it just makes a lot more sense that he's town. You are starting to remind me of the "Dom is bad no matter what lalalalala" Quin from Mad Max.

Maybe. Or he's your baddie teammate.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Well after that lynch... Here are my thoughts on players based on votes (today and previously).

Boomslang: voted for both baddies lynched so far and survived a nightkill. Looks great to me.
Epignosis: made a solid Day 1 vote, but threw his vote away today. But similar to Elohcin, his vote wouldn't have made much of a difference anyway. I still think he's a civilian.
nijuukyugou: Pristine voting record. I don't remember much else about her, but she's a keeper.
Sorsha: similar to everyone else in the blue group, solid voting record, and making contributions to this game that I have not seen from baddie Sorsha.

Scotty: I wanted to think he was bad, but he's put a genuine effort in this game, and made a timely vote on the Wilgy wagon.
thellama73: I was gradually feeling worse about this guy during Day 3, but I feel better about him now. Timely vote for Wilgy, but there's room for improvement from this cat.

Elohcin: she doesn't look much different to me. Her vote was on Wilgy, but it came late (like in the last minute late) when Wilgy was probably sealed up, so the jury's still out on her.
Long Con: his voting record is relatively abysmal, but this guy has hunted in a way I have a hard time associating with his baddie play. I'll give Jay's case a look, but a bad voting record a baddie does not make.
Made: Been pretty much non-existent to this point, but did vote for Wilgy, a slight good look. I won't more from him before I decided.
Spacedaisy: A self-vote and two missed votes. Need more data.

insertnamehere: he didn't vote on either of the baddie wagons yet. That's not a good look. I don't have good feels on him, so he's worth a solid look in the future.

JaggedJimmyJay: entertained the DrWilgy vote, but eventually placed a vote on Made. Part of me thinks he hoped to get a wagon started there instead of on Wilgy. I still think this guy is bad news.
Quin: this guy has done everything but admit he's mafia. I'm happy to be convinced otherwise, but his name was off the poll today, and I was hoping to feel better about him since he had the chance to play another day. I don't.

teehee

Hell, the argument that the baddies could have self-killed in a frame attempt isn't even an argument to suggest that he's bad at this point. It's just to reason to not throw him civ cred for being night killed.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Quin, in specific terms please state your current read on Boomslang.

Hasn't changed. Asking people to stop tin foiling him doesn't help, it both discredits the variety of arguments against him and pushes the agenda that he should somehow be cleared by now.

Epignosis wrote:Also, I'm allergic to some cats, but not all. We had two cats once upon a time, Tunces and Hazel.

One of my cats is actually a dog, so you might be okay with that one.

insertnamehere wrote:jesus i'm playing like garbage this game

it happens.

it's happened to often to me lately I feel like I don't have a shred of credibility left

linki: no

I should give up

Quin wrote:I thought marmot said 'lynches' not 'mislynches'. So... backtrack.

ebwop

I thought llama said 'lynches' not 'mislynches'. So... backtrack.

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