The Syndicate

Syn wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 4:23 pm [VOTE: Long Con] aubergine

No.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 1:54 pmThe rest of his play did not signal "i have given up and am prepared to die," so

Maybe not. But I had made my mind up lol

Actually, I don't think either Invictius or Alison commented on both me and spf leaning town on Tony for his opening. And if they didn't, that doesn't look good on Tony tbh.

May just be Tony then.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 12:30 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 11:13 am

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 9:36 amLulz

Yes?

Jay was fairly clearly setting up a push on me, and tried to get me shot

Jay was going down.

I'm not saying YOU ARE THE SCUM. I'm saying SOME CREEPY FEELINGS.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 9:36 amLulz

Yes?

I have no reason for this, but I want to look into Nanook more. Something about how he went sour on Jimmay before Jimmay had even gotten to analyse Nanook's posts doesn't sit well with me.

Also Tony. Cause I'm drawing a blank there.

But I don't really have the time now. Hopefully I will have at some point.

Marmot wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 6:29 pm Long Con can still be in the POE too. Alison did make a vote to save him Day 1.

I disagree. I think Falcon/LC was just town/town and Alison didn't care. I wish I had more balls/time to suggest just going Alison D1, but this has worked out anyway.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 6:20 pmhow do we live in a world where i did absolutely nothing to shield alison from being in the POE at any point (and no, the exchange with gavial doesn't count) and even outright voiced suspicion against her slot, only for it to be perceived as me having high partner equity with alison?

I mean, I don't really think you're the last one. But to me, you spent way more time trying to focus on Marmot than Alison/Jimmay last day. I felt I had a really good reason to suspect Alison, and you didn't comment on that at all. In fact nobody did..

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 6:16 pmthat said, i would ask you to keep an open mind about me too. the reason i have so much conviction about your push on me is because i feel like i should be BLATANTLY spewed town in a million different directions, and i want to convince you to see that if you're capable of having your mind changed today

The fake claim doesn't spew you imo. At what points are you blatantly spewed town in your opinion? And how are you so obviously not teamed with Jimmay? Genuine questions. I'm not saying you are either. Just don't know why you think it's so blatant.

Marmot wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 6:06 pmHeck yeah!

Thank you, Marmot

Spf not what I would’ve done, Marmot.

I’d shoot Jimmay.

I’m glad I’m not the vig though.

Spf, I’m not scum reading you. I’m scum reading Alison. And there is one more.

I’m sleeping. Good luck with your choices!

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 4:20 pm Regarding Alison:

One gripe is that she gave Invictus a frivolous town read on the basis of overblown chatter about his initial RVS vote on Dizzy. I can't read Alison's mind. I do suspect what happened here though was enthusiasm about generating early town reads. She has taken more to the raw POE approach, quite like the one I often favor, in recent memory and that has been reflected in her recent town play. This was probably an example of the same. By whatever process, she felt like she could town read Invictus and moved from there. Had she played longer I have no idea what she'd have done with that -- if she's like me though, being wrong about an early Day 1 read is not a big deal -- making the read is still valuable for thread development. She was wrong, oh well.

Otherwise her commentary about Invictus is essentially nothing. She didn't dwell on the read and just played the game to the extent that she could. I can understand folks having doubts about the interaction, but that it's being treated as a slam dunk by so many folks is good evidence of confirmation bias clouding the game. That's on everyone else to sort out; I am not going to spend more of my limited time concerned with that. She's town. I'm town. You'll find it if you let yourself find it (the general "you").

1. It’s not about Alison reaching a slight town read on Invi, it’s about the whole line of questioning being unnatural. Heavy handed, asking for links, when the starting point is literally a meaningless RVS vote.

2. “So many folks” are not treating this as a slam dunk. I’m literally the only one who brought the interaction up and cared to discuss it. Nobody else has.

3. I think the interaction shows that they are teammates.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 4:17 pmthat is correct. he wanted to force the vigilante to out themselves

The vig would never actually have to out there though, be real. His claim was never going to fly.

"No, but actually I am the vig who shot my own and everyone's top town read!" is as good as outed. I can't even tell if he tried to make it believable or not, cause it just never could be.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 4:13 pmlike no offense marmot, but i genuinely am having a hard time wrapping my head around that being the play that you want to make. that is absolutely absurd and you'll have to excuse me for being a bit frustrated that you claimed at all, let alone claimed with the intention to shoot the person who literally gave you the cover to hide, lmfao

Invictius was already 100 % outed.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 4:12 pmYou're certainly not required to do it if you don't want to.

No, I don't want to.

I do that shit in my head. If I air every doubt I have in the thread, it's very easy to muddy the waters and for strong scum to argue their way through the cracks. And that is exactly what I'm nervous about right now, and why I would shoot your slot if I had a vig shot.

Long Con wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 4:02 pm Look at us, dizzy, just two good old misrememberers.

Lol

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 4:04 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 4:02 pm Nanook is town though. I know I had reasons. Probably derps and stuff too unfortunately.

That's kind of why I suggested a trustfall. Nanook could be town. I think we need to have some kind of standard for what that read is at this point in the game. I don't have the full game behind me to influence my perspective, so it's purely an interactive detail. If there's something else about him that is important I will listen.

No, I won't do that. I hate trustfalls. It doesn't help me at all. It brings wifom upon me and gives scum wiggle room. Especially if the scum is good at talking themselves out of tight spots. I've won scum games myself by just posting, analysing and contenting-ing the fuck out of town. I'm pretty sure Nanook is town here. I've never been wrong in reading him so far.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 3:57 pmOkay. That runs counter to what LC suggested, so I'd appreciate anyone else giving me a perspective here. It might be an eye-of-the-beholder thing.

Let me put it this way: The chances of LC being a yeet was far from zero. There was a day that could've suddenly taken a turn. I don't at all think Invictius encourages my suspicion on LC and also votes LC himself if they are teammates, when he has enough town cred and enough game in him to just not. Again, he doesn't bus for the fun of it.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 4:01 pm Based on interactions with Invictus, in light of Marmot's claim:

Dyslexicon
hollowkatt

staypositivefriend
DkKoba/Syn
Long Con

TonyStarkPrime
Nanook

Names within tiers are not ordered.

Nanook is town though. I know I had reasons. Probably derps and stuff too unfortunately.

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 4:00 pmWhat do you make of my point that SPF was trying to keep Alison/JJJ from being vigged?

I have not read this. But yes. I was wondering why spf did not engage with me Alison suspicion at all actually. And I was like, why does she not also consider that as a vig option? Cause that is where I would vig if I had a shot.

Long Con wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 3:36 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 3:21 pm Can anyone tell me whether Long Con was ever a viable wagon on Day 1 or the start of Day 2?

I think it was only Invictus that scum read me, I think I had mostly Town reads going on.

I voted you and did not town read you. In my mind, you were a possible yeet until the very EoD when Alison and probably some others said you were town. Maybe I'm misremembering though.

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 3:53 pm Also, the reason I claimed today is a couple reasons

1) I'm POE'd so I'm just going to get that out of the way.
2) Gavial is already an outed tracker, so the mafia has to either kill him tonight, giving me two shots, or kill me tonight, giving him another track, but giving me 1 shot at least.

Well this is pretty fantastic then. I think Alison/JJJ is scum. I guess spf/Tony for the last one?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 3:54 pmThere's a relative dearth of things to talk about, even if from the Invictus side those things are of significance. I'd be more comfortable if I had more content to develop my perspectives. Gun to my head Long Con is not Invictus's teammate.

Pretty damn sure LC is town. I could feel Invi really wanting to go there D1, and for reasons of "lack of town tells" not anything that is "gotcha" which it might be with a teammate. Invi dislikes unnecessary bussing.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 3:53 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 3:50 pm

Gavial wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 3:03 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 2:44 pm @Gavial Where was Tony’s pr-cover that you speak of?

Post#24 and Post#987 - #988

I take 24 as an obvious joke, and not sure what happened at all in 987-988. But ok. I don't think Tony has been especially scummy anyway.

Is that the vig joke? If so it was also a joke

Yeah, so I don't read it as cover, I read it as jokes. Also, it's funny that Gavial played openly like PT on D1 and lived to D2 with a result lol

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 3:21 pm Can anyone tell me whether Long Con was ever a viable wagon on Day 1 or the start of Day 2?

He was D1. Game state felt like either him or Falcon to be yeeted from my point of view.

Marmot claimed vig now, so hey. But maybe stupid reason to clear him: He immediately followed Invictius on his RVS vote on me. Yeah, Marmot is maybe a player who would do that, most teammates would probably spread votes. But if Marmot is actually vig, then we're golden anyway.

Gavial wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 3:03 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 2:44 pm @Gavial Where was Tony’s pr-cover that you speak of?

Post#24 and Post#987 - #988

I take 24 as an obvious joke, and not sure what happened at all in 987-988. But ok. I don't think Tony has been especially scummy anyway.

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 3:34 pm I think it's SPF/JJJ. I can make a case for why I think it's the two of them, but there's a lot of how SPF handled Alison Day 1 that's very teammate compatible.

That would be cool. I'm ok with that. Could see JJJ/Tony as well.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 12:34 pmFrom Invictus's side this interaction is pretty boring. There's nothing here that stands out to me as indicative of anything either way; it's all soft and directionless. If I want to stretch hard I might suggest the "why would you want to chop town?" is an easy bit of shade to hurl when you are looking for a place to do so (in this context a civilian Tony). I have little confidence in that view.

I'd argue that this is the exact type of shade teammates like to throw at each other as distancing. It's cheap and obvious. "Why would you want to chop town?" is such a dishonest question to begin with. I think it's not really a good look.

I'll try to understand why Gavial has cleared Tony first, but for now, I haven't.

hollowkatt wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 3:23 pm does JJJ stroll into the thread like this and just start crunching posts/solves/analysis? I've spec'd him before but my play with him is vv limited.
His posts with analysis re players/Invictius seems legit/doesn't seem to push an agenda.

Imo, he'd do it as either alignment.

Marmot wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 3:31 pm

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 2:57 pm @Marmot do you believe SPF's counter claim on Invictus was theater?

Yes

I'm also the real vig and plan on shooting her tonight.

Oh, this is spicy. Finally.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 12:12 pm

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 5:34 am Your analysis is fine. Thank you. You're still getting yeeted.

JJJ's getting cranky. I've gotten a couple of these replies already.

"Thanks for analysis, okay. Still, die."

I don't care about being thanked for doing things. I care about receiving feedback for the actual conclusions I have drawn, whether people agree with me or don't, and what specific points they feel need further discussion or reassessment etc. This is how I mean to incorporate myself into the Mafia game, and if I am not even given that respect then every civilian involved with that treatment is doing the team a disservice. Folks can suspect me without discarding me. That's not okay. I realize not everyone has done so, but at least three players have to my count.

I did give you feedback, although briefly and probably snarky. It's fine analysis. I agree. By the time I made the post you're reacting to here, you had done three isos. Koba, me and Hollow, concluded we're all town. I agree with that. I repeated one of your points about Koba to confirm my town read there. So it's analysis about three people you clear as town which I already agreed with, hence why your analysis is fine.

At this point my PoE is pretty much you, Marmot and Tony. None of what you've posted have changed my mind about having you in the PoE. I've also explained why I scum read Alison. Though I don't think anyone engaged with me on that.

I'm not in the habit of ignoring anyone, but I don't see the point of chewing on analysis, clearing people I've already cleared.

@Gavial Where was Tony’s pr-cover that you speak of?

I agree with SPF on Marmot btw. His play so far has been inoffensive and with a lack of showing consideration for his reads.

I was considering whether Alison/Marmot would be a less likely team, since they both ended up voting Falcon, and too many scum voting the first misyeet together rarely happens imo. But thing is, Marmot was already on Falcon and Invictius was on LC. And those were the choices Alison had, and it would look strange if she voted someone else and she didn't care to stake out a new solution. So it's entirely possible that this is the team. But it could also not be the team. I have a very hard time seeing what the solve would be if both was town though. That kind of just doesn't work.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 11:35 pm Let's try it this way:

Those who suspect me to whatever degree, could you please state what you believe to be Alison's worst crime(s)? I may or may not bother answering to said crimes, but it would still be useful to me to know what brought our dear player roster to this scenario. Thanks.

Worst crime is her reading Invictius town for RVS voting me when he knows me from beforehand. In that line of questioning she asked for games we had played together, which was totally unnecessary when the question could just be answered with a yes or a no. It created the impression that she didn't know anything about Invictius, but it was heavy handed and awkward. She also (indirectly) assumed Invictius as scum during that line of questioning and she assumed me (openly) as town. Her line of questioning seemed to be: "Is Invictius scum trying to make a harmful wagon stick on Dizzy?", which imo is an absurd take when the vote in question was an RVS vote on page 1. In no way would I be threatened by that. She answers this question with "No, Invictius would not be scum doing this, because he knows me from beforehand and knows how good I am at projecting town in smaller games. So this makes him more towny." Apparently for RVS voting me. She creates kind of a huge deal about it when asking for links to games me and Invictius has played and asks him to summarise my play in it, for no apparent reason that I can think of. Ungood. Very strange. Forced interaction. Unnatural investigation.

Her other takes has seemed strange to me. Her landing on a lhf she could've read well eventually is very uninspiring.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 10:45 pm

Marmot wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 10:41 pm I prefer correct reads to spicy reads.

reads can still be spicy even if theyre consensus - like, if you had a super unique and wild reason to scumread the alison slot based on a heavily detailed infograph psychoanalyzing their interactions with invictius, i would find it villagery even if your read is a "consensus" read. the issue is that your reads feel relatively barebones to me

Lol. Speaking of, what do you think of my read of Alison? I find her handling of the "does Invictius know Dizzy?"-question all shades of wrong and unnecessary.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 10:33 pm

Gavial wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 10:28 pm JJJ never makes it to F6/F5.

I understand that you suspect my slot and that's fine. I really would appreciate your feedback on my analyses though, especially those about your suspects -- you're in a uniquely strong position and I value that perspective. If you're going to suspect me then so be it, but it'd be super to get your takes.

Your analysis is fine. Thank you. You're still getting yeeted.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 9:39 pmi've been weighing the theory that this specific exchange between invicitus and myself spews both nanook and koba as town

it feels like invicitus is trying to subtly "egg on" koba to continue pushing on nanook - koba had launched some aggressive attacks on nanook and when i tried to shut the conversation down, invict lit things on fire again by broadly complaining about nanook's playstyle and echoing koba's opinion

Yeah, and Invi's first real launch on someone was on Koba, saying he didn't like his first string of posts. I think he started the Koba suspicion before anyone else, if I'm not mistaken? Should speak to Koba's credit, me thinks. Similar to what Jay just said.

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 9:31 pmcould you explain why falcon45ca is in that POE? why is he scummy?

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 9:25 pm Now that the game is over I can say that Alison talked about some rl health issues in scum chat in the just ended hydra game, so I'm reasonably sure her absence is not ai

Hoping she feels better soon.

Gavial wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 8:45 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 12:50 am I do have a legitimately reachy read which I haven't outed yet.

@JaggedJimmyJay
Wanna explain this for Alison.
What do you think that reach read is?

She already said, Gavial. It was spf.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 8:26 pm Hey gang. I've followed loosely and have at least a vague understanding of present game matters. I appreciate y'all giving me an outed mafia to start with; I will be digging into the interactions straightaway. I don't believe in ketchup, and that will probably be the best way for me to get acclimated. In the mean time folks should tell me exactly what I should care about the most in this game, more than anything else in the world. What's most important?

JIMMAAYYYY!

I think the most important thing to focus on is that you spew your last teammate.

I keep calling Invictius Plat, cause that's what I know him as. Sorry about that.

One of the reasons I think it's Invictus/Alison:

The whole exchange around "Does Invictus know Dizzy" feels very fabricated to me, and not something Alison would naturally investigate in the manner she does.

Alison wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 12:52 am Has Invictius played with Dizzy before?

Alison wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 1:12 am @Invictius Have you played with Dyslexicon before?

Prods with two questions (apparently from Invi's RVS vote on me).

Alison wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 1:51 am

Invictius wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 1:35 am

Alison wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 1:28 am

Invictius wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 1:26 am

Alison wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 1:18 amLink?

to my last game with them?

Yes obviously.

the condescending tone is palpable, nice ot meet you too

https://www.mafiacafe.net/forum/standar ... #post20390


^im undercover platypus

Condescending tone was not intentional. If I intend to condescend to you it will be extremely obvious.

Then she asks if Plat can post to a game where we played together. Not sure why she would ask this tbh, since a yes/no-answer should suffice as an answer to her question about whether Plat knows me or not.

Alison wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 1:53 am I can't seem to search on that site and the UI is unusable so please summarize Dizzy's alignment and what he did before dying.

Why does this question exist? This is totally pointless. Why would Invictus have to prove what my alignment was and what I was doing in a game we played together in order to answer whether we have played or not?

This whole line of questioning seems to just exist to plant that Alison doesn't know anything about Invictus and is totally unfamiliar.

Alison wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 2:48 am I'll give a light townread to Invictius if he knows Dizzy since I don't think anyone who knows Dizzy would be inclined to choose him as the random bandwagon Day 1 target.

Alison wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 2:49 am Well, at least not in a game this size. In larger games maybe, since he'd be more inclined to slank early, but Dizzy is good at projecting town in smaller games.

Also, the conclusion makes no sense either. I was never a bandwagon. In fact, Invictus was the first lone vote on me. Not a bandwagon. And it was early page 1 random ass RVS. This is not "mafia trying to make me a thing, but they can't, since I'm good at projecting town". Alison's whole argument makes no sense here. What I'm getting from this is that Alison is saying that Invictus could be mafia trying to "make me a bandwagon" (which is questionable in itself, cause it was one lone vote on D1), but then she turns it into a town thing, because "Invictus would know I'm not easily bandwagoned on D1 since I'm good at projecting town". There's several mistakes here. First of all, it was completely meaningless RVS and not a bandwagon vote trying to make anything stick that would threaten me. And second, she assumed me town here and she also assumes Invictus as scum (but then turns it around).

The whole thing just rubs me all the wrong ways. It's a meaningless line to take. It creates distance between them in the form of "Alison is not familiar with Invictus". She asks for a game and everything and asks Invictus to summarise my play in it, which is totally meaningless to the point she's trying to make. It's all wrong to me.

I hope this made sense. It definitely does in my head, but I'm not sure if I explained it well. Would like thoughts.

hollowkatt wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 2:06 pmI notice there's no comment on that MU doesn't deserve me
Dizzy strikes me as the kind of person who would wear sleeves without a shirt whenever possible

Accurate.

Syn wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 2:04 pm bold of you to think dizzy is wearing a shirt

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Sat May 15, 2021 1:50 pmSure, I mean, I dont think it implicates you and I'm not that interested in killing you, i just don't think it clears you!