The Syndicate

It had said "First attempt" so that was what I meant. Now that I think about it though, it wouldn't have been possible anyway, because I just realized that it only would've worked had they shot him on the final night. My bad!

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

nijuukyugou wrote:I (and the elements I had at the time) figured you were bad the moment you started trying to get people after me.

Yeah. When our kill attempt on you failed, I was shook. There was probably no more difficult lynch on the table than you, and to make matters worse, we had to find a way to generate it without making you look like the Process, because it was too late in the game to lynch the Process openly.

Honestly, the only reason I didn't think it was Nijuu was because I was so deadset that you were the Process. I really wanted the K4J vote that phase, so I really regret not autolocking it at the beginning of the day to force it.

Really cool that the dead players took on the elements, very nice touch. I wish I would've bought into that theory earlier but part of what sold me that Process was 3J was the sheer amount of effort going into each sock, plus his own interactions with them seemed fabricated to me.

Also, had Dfaraday already used his one-shot protection? Cause I think we could've won if not.

Also, what was Luna's role?

Great game mafia, especially 3J who did a great job distancing himself from the rest until the very end when it was no longer necessary. Especially in manipulating those final phases into the best case scenario for the mafia, I wish I was around to try to argue you on the element lynch but sadly I don't think it would've resolved in my favor anyway.

The major lesson from endgame here imo are that if both factions need to eliminate a third party to win, and there is an easy way to work together on it, it needs to happen. I was a broken record about it the whole game, but the elements that remained put us in a bad position late game.

Sad to see that I had flipped Nijuu and 3J but at the same time the order I wanted to lynch it wouldn't have mattered. I wish people had hopped onto my suspicions of K4J as well, but I can see why Nijuu was pushing 3J, likely having snapshotted him.

Excited to see the exact nature of the elusive process, as well as the identity of Luna. My theory on Snapshot is that the player roles that got publically revealed were its doing, as I was Olmarq, and I'm relatively sure I was checked at some point.

Great game balance imo Epi, and the process mechanic was cool. It worked as I believe it was meant to, late game powerhouse if left ignored.

Luna is definitely friendly, but I'm unsure if it's vote means anything. The fact that we haven't lost yet implies that between our two remaining civs and Luna with our votes/roles we can pull this off.

DFaraday, I think it is a bit obvious now that you are my civ buddy, and 3J and K4J are scumbuddies based on last phase. Nijuu probably role copped 3J with snapshot and was confident he was getting a baddie. Mafia likely shot Nijuu at some recent point and already deduced him to be process.

Shit. This is why I wanted to do K4J instead. The fact that the game hasn't ended yet means there may be hope though so I guess we keep fighting.

NOTE: Luna is still alive. If I die tonight, the remaining civ and Luna need to vote for K4J.

3J - Your case for K4J being The process and cloud walk are weak. Voting record isn't enough to base the civ read on this late in the game with only two dead imo, especially when both of those lynches K4J was the LAST vote on the player and therefore did note contribute to either. K4J being process is possible albeit unlikely imo.

Also 3J, I was hesitant to hop on board with your plan yesterday because had the mafia successfully killed another voting element, we would have lost the little leverage we have over them at this point and nothing would have stopped them from a civ kill, though this ended up working out well in the end.

Also, I will ask the question to the group then since people still find my game long focus on the process suspicious (despite the fact that we are now seeing exactly why we should have done more work taking them down from the beginning). Why would I wait until night 3-4 (can't remember which) to shoot the process if I were mafia?

My guess for Process in order of likelihood is 3J > Nijuu > K4J > DFaraday.

My guess for mafia in order of likelihood is K4J > Nijuu > DFaraday > 3J

Other civ guess in order of likelihood is DFaraday > 3J > Nijuu > K4J

I would really like to lynch K4J today, but sadly with DFaraday and Nijuu already locking it seems Im stuck choosing between 3J and Nijuu. Got to go Nijuu on this one, as my secondary scum read. Process (3J) can wait one more day.

Vote Nijuu

Also I would like to see a likelihood list like the three I just posted from everybody.

Back from vacation and should be able to contribute more to this now.

Us winning the game right now is actually impossible I think. Unless a doctor is alive, or Preston or Olmarq from the OP. If that is a case, we would need to assume voting power to work right now, we need to lynch a mafia today, putting it at:

2 town votes/2 process votes/1 Mafia vote : 2 process votes/3 nonprocess votes

This then will force the mafia to shoot an element if they want a shot at living, which can either leave us in the same position or drop the process a vote. The only way in which town can win is if the Process is down to one vote by the following day. If the mafia kill fails, we must lynch cheerleader the following day, which will still force the mafia to kill Jerk in order to drop the process down to one vote.

After the Process and Mafia are each down to one vote with one civ remaining we would need to lynch either of the two. Since the Process inherits the mafia's kill after they are eliminated it doesn't matter which one. But afterwards the situation will be:

2 town votes/1 anti-town vote

Then that night we need one of the above three roles, or another existing role that is hidden in order to pull off a win:

Doctor: Protect right - then we would need to lynch the remaining antitown on the next day.

Preston: He would need to protect himself from night-kills on the appropriate night and get shot.

Olmarq: Antitown would need to kill him the last night. Then when it is 1:1 between the antitown and the last town they would both vote each other. The town player would end up winning out the lynch.

So yeah, it kind of sucks and we might not even have any of those three alive but it's something. The lynching order I suggest if we can figure it out to this degree is:
Mafia -> Process -> Mafia

This way if we do have one of those three roles, the Process is not in control of the final kill since we know they had role cop access with Snapshot and may be able to narrow down the last shot based upon it.

Additionally, here are my guesses at the current state of the game:

Process: 3J
Mafia: K4J and Nijuu
Civ: Dfaraday

Mafia: if you shoot the other civ and put me into a mafia vs process kingmaker situation, I will ask that the process claim publically and side with them.

Other civ, please do the same if mafia shoots me.

K4J - I was talking when you voted in relation to when others did, not the times.

3J - Basically this game is a kingmaker scenario where we get to choose who wins process or mafia if we allow the mafia to get the first strike on us. But since I don't have time to argue and there's already enough votes on weed that Process could overrun whatever we do if I don't go with it, looks like I'm voting weed.

What I'm stating is still correct though that the town can't win if we do. We need to force the mafia to only be able to kill elements to win. We're currently equal to the mafia and they will reduce our numbers instead if there is no need for them to shoot the process.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

nijuukyugou wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:We know what every Process element in the poll can do today aside from Luna if that applies.

The Process can still exert too much control over the lynch because it has two votes that count for something -- Fetch and Weed. I think we need to lynch one of those today.

Of course you do, so you can buy more time for your team and people will avoid voting you and seeing you for the baddie you are. Two confirmed civs (assuming NK'ed llama was a civ, which I will most certainly assume) knew it, saw or knew something we didn't, and tried to show it with their crazy votes, but were too busy to prove it beyond that, it seems. Lucky you.

But I'm not too busy. I'm done with work. And I'm coming for you, Jimmy.

You've bothered to paint a picture of some baddie strategy you claim I'm employing, but you've not bothered to address the core point I was making:

Town cannot win this game without reducing the voting power of the Process.

So if you're going to accuse me of bullshitting, then the onus is on you to show me where my assertion is false. Lay it out for me, niju, phase by phase. How does town win this game without addressing the voting power of the Process faction?

Town cannot win the game while we are equal to the mafia either. We have a chance to win if we lynch mafia today. Then the remaining mafia has to shoot an element to have a chance. It's very bleak for us, but we have a shot. The fact that this phase in which town cannot lynch an element and win is the one that you want to do that and not last phase makes me relatively confident that you are not town. Mafia would obviously want to steer the lynch towards the elements right now so the process can't get a voting edge on them. Process could be suggesting this to distance self, but I would lean towards the mafia side of things for 3J's suggestion.

In case mafia is dumb and loses themself the game tonight by killing me, here's my thoughts:

K4J / Nijuu - mafia
3J - Process
DFaraday - Civ

Mafia, if you want a statistical chance of winning you have to shoot an element tonight. If you shoot a Civ the process can tie all nonprocess votes if fetch or clucker have a vote.

I'm not 100% sold on the Mac case, but we need to be united in order to stop the Process from messing with things.

I'll vote for Mac

And that's all I've actually got time for now. I'll get back on later to vote, but if nobody makes a more compelling case my vote will fall on K4J.

kneel4justice wrote:Voted for MP. Sorry, I'm out away from a computer and forgot about the game.

But I don't like that the previous post was her only post against MP. This vote was also at the end of the phase, just like the Eloh vote. However, looking at K4J's voting record, K4J voted in the middle of the day for most of the mislynches and elements. Definitely suspicious voting imo, not contributing to either scum lynch on the day of, but voting them when they're inevitable.

kneel4justice wrote:So Snapshot is a role-checker? That gives me better reason to consider the suspicion it had of DrumBeats. It suspected MP as well? When was this? I need to go see. Considering MP's lack of participation and Scotty's death, he might be a more favorable lynch than DrumBeats..especially since I think while Snapshot is a role-checker, it could still serve as an agenda to help the process survive, which would explain a faulty case against DrumBeats, hoping we would listen to it.

This post actually looks pretty good on K4J

kneel4justice wrote:

Scotty wrote:I went though everything MP said about Elo leading up to her almost lynch and her actual lynch and have a very strong suspicion that he is bad because of it. On the surface he looks town for trying to start that CFD before EoD but I don't buy it and actually think he's trying to look town instead of being town.

Are these votes changeable?

im in a show right now so I will not be around to respond with expediency

I don't recall anything suspicious about his interaction with Eloh. I just remember he was one of those willing to vote for her over Zebra in D1 which had gave me a good feeling. I'll have to go back and see this.

Quickly defends the MP-Eloh interaction.

kneel4justice wrote:Just looked back briefly at MP's posts on Eloh (thanks to JJJ for making that easier). Not quite sure why MP was getting a town-read on Eloh in the first place, as in I would have disagreed with that, but I can't say the particular point in which he became suspicious of Eloh was all that unreasonable or bothersome. I'd like to see some clarification from MP on why exactly he felt good on Eloh and if I missed that -- my apologies, it is 1 in the morning here, lol.

Then sees the reasoning and doesn't offer a full opinion but instead pushes the question to MP.

kneel4justice wrote:MP's explanation of his thought process on Eloh throughout the game makes me feel good about it. I can now understand why he felt good about her and admit that even I might have done so had I actually been in the game and playing it real time.

Niju has done nothing to strike me as suspicious. Taking into consideration the suspicion and voting of Eloh, I feel rather confident that she is not working with the mafia.

That being said, my vote is going to Nero.

After letting MP answer, immediately wipes away all suspicion. This was a great way to deflect Scotty's suspicion.

kneel4justice wrote:I'm out right now. Going to vote Eloh because she hasn't done anything to settle my initial suspicions.

Voted Eloh only when the other votes were already there. Despite strong suspicions of Eloh before K4J did not really do any pushing on her this phase. Instead K4J focussed posts on Nero on Day too, which could have been trying to set up the day 3 mislynch or make it happen in place of Eloh.

I've actually got time to post on vacation now since I got up early, I'll try to use that time wisely.

Some quick thoughts on K4Js ISO:
I'm going to post things separately because I'm on mobile and multiquoting is a pain in the ass

If I were mafia an element would've been shot last night, and much sooner than they were in the game. That simple

Wow, did not expect that one tbh. Mafia, you need to shoot an element right now. If you don't we aren't going to risk lynching one, and you may very well lose the game due to not being able to outvote the Process.

Voting Man.

I'm going to be gone at the update, but it seems nobody wants to lynch an element today. Only fair ig since mafia didn't kill one. I'll be voting gleam as well for aforementioned reasons.

nijuukyugou wrote:

DrumBeats wrote:GUYS I JUST FOUND OUT WHAT LUNA IS!

If you look at the Transistor wiki (http://transistor.wikia.com/wiki/Sandbox) page here apparently Luna is a friendly Fetch found in the game's sandbox mode.

Additionally, the lack of a kill means that mafia either shot the Process, shot an element protected by Cheerleader, or shot a civ protected by a doctor if that is still present in the game. Operator's role is interesting and better taken out before the others die, so I am happy it is out, though the fact that it didn't have a vote makes me feel that it might not have been the best lynch option.

Process elements I would be willing to vote today: Man or Fetch

I feel like elements are still the way to go for now. It would be best to err on the safe side with them before we fight the civ vs mafia war that could drop our numbers below that of the Process.

I might be crucified for saying this, but no way, dude. The mafia misses a kill, giving us an advantage when they have (presumably, barring shenanigans) TWO members left this late in the game, and you want to waste the precious day on a Process element? I understand your numbers analysis. I appreciate that you're not ignoring a dangerous indy. But this focus away from baddie hunting for so long is starting to smell. Bad. I agree with JJJ - Epi may be evil, but he's not SO unbalanced (game-wise; can't speak for his mental state :P ) that we couldn't use the day to hunt baddies.

I'll be doing some vote listy-analysis that's helped me in the past to organize my thoughts, now that I'm able to focus more again. Will post. Will discuss. Would like to see others' thoughts on this matter, too.

...Where is everyone?

If we're not doing an element I will support an agleam lynch. He is the only person I feel strongly enough about that I don't think it would be risking a mislynch.

You drew next to no conclusion from it and you haven't mentioned it since the operator flip or analyzed the operator votes. Seems abandoned to me

Also it seems like distancing because in the end, you only arrived at a very conditional "If this is valid..." Conclusion based upon it, and all gained information you mentioned from it was simply a smaller "they look better, they look worse" For all the effort you put into it, I'm not sure I believe all that effort was for that small maybe conclusion. The effort would be much more warranted if there were a more subtle motive behind it, being to distance.

As for a better way, I personally think analyzing people's behavior always trumps vote analysis. Looking at possible motives and inconsistencies.

Also, answer your own questions please. Town reads, Process reads, Scum reads, if we should lynch an element.

MacDougall wrote:Why don't you tell us who the process is since you just found out.

Of the possible options you seem pretty sure mafia tried to kill Process last night, rather than an element protected by cheerleader. How would you know they did that unless you were one of them?


Stronger town reads: Nijuu - key player in both scum lynches iirc, early vote in a counter wagon on Elochin day one.

Town reads: DFaraday - Good interactions with past scum members; Vote history isn't as good though I'm pretty sure (on mobile so I don't want to go back and check)
K4J - Relatively good vote history, active, and haven't really had any pings there so far

Process Read: 3J - He has tried numerous times this game to legitimize the Process's thoughts/actions. Started and abandoned a case based on the Process research votes, which honestly seemed more like a distancing himself from the Process type thing than legitimate hunting.

Slight Process: Llama - Has tried to distance himself from the elements but yet when time has come to lynch them he hasn't been very cooperative. If he is scum, he is not scum with Agleam imo.

Light Scumread: MacDoug - Contributed absolutely nothing and hops onto suspicions with no explanation.

Major scumread: Agleam - His interactions with Elo and MP reek of distancing attempts. He would always make weak cases on them, but then immediately backs off with a "but I don't know" or by removing the suspicion completely. Voting for MP during Elo's lynch was clear distancing.

Lynch an element today. Both sides need them out of the picture right now.

GUYS I JUST FOUND OUT WHAT LUNA IS!

If you look at the Transistor wiki (http://transistor.wikia.com/wiki/Sandbox) page here apparently Luna is a friendly Fetch found in the game's sandbox mode.

Additionally, the lack of a kill means that mafia either shot the Process, shot an element protected by Cheerleader, or shot a civ protected by a doctor if that is still present in the game. Operator's role is interesting and better taken out before the others die, so I am happy it is out, though the fact that it didn't have a vote makes me feel that it might not have been the best lynch option.

Process elements I would be willing to vote today: Man or Fetch

I feel like elements are still the way to go for now. It would be best to err on the safe side with them before we fight the civ vs mafia war that could drop our numbers below that of the Process.

Mafia, if you don't want to lose, you should shoot an element. If you shoot a civ tonight then the minumum voting spread would be 4/2/3 (Process + Badcell + Weed). That's not too bad, but then we have the maximum, which would be if Man, Fetch, Luna, and clucker have votes. That would put us at 4/2/7 and it would be autolose for everyone but Process. Autolose would still occur if only three of them had votes, putting us at 4/2/6.

Voting Fetch.

Gleam I am leaning towards being mafia, but not Process. I'm leaning towards Jay or Llama being Process.

People, we need to vote Creep out. A vote for Creep is a vote for us not being forced to lose the game due to too much Process.

Seriously guys, let's not be dumb here. Based on the number of votes we know Process to currently possess and the 5/2/1 ratio we know to currently exist, we HAVE to lynch an element today.

If we were to misfire and hit town, we would be down to 4/2/1, which ordinarily isn't bad, but when the 1 at the end is guaranteed at least 3 additional votes through elements, it effectively becomes 4/2/4. If after that the mafia kills one of us instead of an element it would drop down to 3/2/4, EVERY TOWN AND MAFIA PLAYER WOULD HAVE TO VOTE THE SAME WAY IN ORDER TO STOP THE PROCESS. And that is assuming that the Process does not have any more latent vote power through elements we've yet to see.

Basically, if we mislynch a townie, today is auto lose for both the town and the mafia. If we lynch the mafia, we will be in relatively good shape, but would need to take out elements following that to stay alive. If we lynch the Process then we will likely be at MILO the next day due to mafia killing a civ. If we lynch an element, then we prevent autolose by Process votes, scum can't really target us tonight if they want a shot at winning because they're low enough in number at this point to not stand a chance against process alone. We NEED to back and forth lynch/shoot elements before acting elsewhere or it is very likely we will lose.

I just looked back at agleam's ISO, and I am not a fan. I've got to go in a sec, so I'm not going to pull quotes, but I highly encourage everyone to look back on it.

Agleam's opinions on Elo were all over the place. He consistently referred to Elo as a "helpful civilian" but would then say she pinged him, but provide a statement afterwards to nullify the suspicion such as "I'll give her the benefit of the doubt" or "Not sure what to make of it"

Then comes Agleam's interactions with MP, in which he suspects and votes him the day Elo was lynched, a safe time to place a distancing vote. However, in his next post, he nullifies his suspicion on MP by saying that the revelation of Royce's role makes it so he cannot hold onto the suspicion. The problem is iirc, Royce's role was revealed before Agleam voiced the suspicion anyway.

I still think lynching Creep is the best option for today, because if agleam ended up a mislynch and mafia kills a town memeber successfully we would be down to 3/2/1 and Process would have at least 3 votes (Creep, Badcell, Weed's negative vote) And that is not considering Clucker, Fetch, Man, Jerk, or whoever this Luna is. That would put the votes at 3/2/4 at minimum, which would mean that literally every non-Process player would have to agree to take out the Process. The more I think about it now the more dangerous the Process is at the moment.

Voting for Creep

Look at the OP:

The Process
The Process will manifest itself in multiple ways.
The Process itself is immune to Kill ( ), and must be lynched to die. If The Process is lynched, all residual processes will die.

This confirms that all Process elements are indeed aligned with the Process. Take that haters.

With one more process element down, I personally think we should pursue Creep today. That secret vote could mess with our lynches hard.

Voting Fetch.

Mafia, you should consider shooting an element tonight.

@Jimmy I think they should be ignored. It's all WIFOM at this point. If somebody else were in the ISO I would feel the same way about it, there's no point trying to deduce the motives behind what a confirmed anti-everyone role says.

MP will be my vote for the day. I don't find his defense compelling and his suspicions feel forced. Three low contributors, but no strong opinion on any, is a safe thing to say but not push, and then the vote on me based solely upon trusting the Process is beyond irrational imo and citing that I suggested we keep lynching the elements without mafia cooperation as evidence against me, which is 100% untrue.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

DrumBeats wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Later Scotty.

Snapshot was revealed as a role checker. My immediate reaction to that is it's not a good look for DrumBeats. My perception that Snaphot's ISO on DrumBeats didn't seem entirely sincere could be resolved by the role check -- if Snapshot knows DB is bad, then he/she/it has to convey it somehow, and a big ISO is an ideal method.

Or again, the obvious answer: I am threatening Process elements, so the Process wants me dead. And you also seem to want me dead a bit too much as well. You keep trying to build a case on me based solely on the actions of an entity we know is 100% anti-everyone. Also, if Snapshot did check me, what reasoning would it have for saying I am 70% mafia and 30% Process. Should Snapshot somehow be an outside player trying to help who also checked me, it would express certainty that I was either mafia or process not both. I'm really seeing you as the Process right now.

I would also like to see MP answer to the accusations against him when he gets the chance. My vote will likely fall on one of you two.

I don't think it's an obvious answer. If the Process is solely built on each of its elements, all of which serve its interests alone, then it is the most overpowered role I've ever seen. That would mean that whichever player is the Process would have the capacity to place numerous votes in most day phases, protect itself, role check, and who knows what else. Combine that with the diversity of the behavior exhibited by these elements, and I think there's plenty of reason to think that the Process elements might not be so clear-cut.

It wouldn't be though when the entire game is also against them. If played cautiously as I suggested, this possible OP role would have been cut down to a vanilla who needs to be last man standing, which is way UP. We know for sure that regardless of what these roles are controlled by, they are all aligned with the Process. The fact that the OP says that "The Process manifests itself in different ways" before listing all of these makes me readily believe that all are controlled by the process.

Many hosts would interpret what you suggest as an infodump (to express total certainty in a read that is derived from role information), and that is against the rules and generally frowned upon in this culture. A nearly identical numeral scenario actual arose in the Turf Wars game in which Sloonei knew himself to be a Don but still pretended to think two other players had a "3 out of 10" chance of being a don -- he knew that to be impossible, but he was avoiding an illegal infodump. In this example we can even observe that Snapshot did call you 100% bad -- he/she just didn't specify with certainty which bad.

Ah, that sort of makes sense I suppose. I still think using percents though would be a terrible approach if a check was the basis. Then it could be a gut read type scenario that could be pushed a la "You just have to trust me"

I don't know with certainty whether Snapshot role checked you, but I do think there's a clear, objective reason to suspect that it happened. I don't think there's a clear, objective reason to say Snapshot is lying about you solely for the benefit of whichever player is the Process. There's a subjective reason to think so, but that's not as strong.

We know with certainty that the Process needs to be last man standing. We have a clear, objective reason to suspect that Snapshot is aligned with the Process. Therefore there is a clear, objective reason as to why Snapshot would be acting in benefit of the Process.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

DrumBeats wrote:

DrumBeats wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Later Scotty.

Snapshot was revealed as a role checker. My immediate reaction to that is it's not a good look for DrumBeats. My perception that Snaphot's ISO on DrumBeats didn't seem entirely sincere could be resolved by the role check -- if Snapshot knows DB is bad, then he/she/it has to convey it somehow, and a big ISO is an ideal method.

Also just noticed this. Show me where you thought it wasn't sincere. You agreed with the Snapshot's ISO wholeheartedly iirc.

Scratch that, I looked back and found it in the ISO, my bad.

Okay, you've corrected yourself, now what does that say to you about my motivations? You've called me the Process and threatened to vote for me based upon two assertions that are abjectly false (that I have tried to "build a case on you based upon Snapshot's ISO" prior to its role reveal and that I agreed with that ISO). I'd actually just spent time in the night phase explaining to Scotty why I had a civilian read on you. Your desire to deflect a valid concern back upon me based upon content that doesn't exist in my posts is a bad look too.

The first one is completely just my bad. Your first post after the ISO was what I was thinking, in which you pushed it's legitimacy by stressing it not be ignored, which honestly as the ISO as a whole is a barrel of WIFOM, I misinterpreted that at first as agreeing with it. Second part I have bolded and underlined where you tried to subtly paint me bad for Snapshot's ISO, which you previously denied legitimacy. A bit of inconsistent thought Process (ba dum tsss) but for now I will let it slide. I still have a hankering you could be the Process, but it isn't anything worth pushing until all of the mafia are gone. If I were to percent it out it would be 70/25/5 for civ/process/mafia right now.

I am still intrigued to hear MP's response to the nutella argument. I likely won't have time to make a large post tomorrow, but I will look back, read, and make a quick vote.

Agleam is likely not the Process due to his most recent post. He derped on which element died, thinking we needed to look at Snapshot as the dead element. The real Process would likely be more aware of which of its elements were currently living.

DFaraday, MacDougall, Llama, and agleam I would like at least 2 town reads and 2 scum reads from each of you, you guys have been coasting imo.

Scotty wrote:So in case I am actually dead tonight, I feel like importing that I agree that multiple people are running the sock accounts, and think they have their own agendas and win cons that may not be in the same realm as us. Therefore I don't see why we're going after them without hesitation. I'm looking at you, Drumbeats. You thought Mafia was giving us a gift of killing them, and advising us do the same. But I wouldn't be surprised if it were part of your own manipulation that you are Mafia speeding things up a little under the guise of a civ. I don't know why several if you view Drum as civ. Could someone enlighten me?

Wtf is Luna? Like, seriously. Wtf is that?

I view nijuu as town at this time.

I don't know if any of us are in fact Process at this time. I thought Mp might have been, but I'm still going with Mafia.

JJJ, who do you think looks the most suspicious of the non-elements?

In regards to that, I'll answer the same way I answered the Process Snapshot. If I were mafia and trying to manipulate things like that, I would have done it much earlier. If I could help it, every element (except Cell, since it's apparently kind of useless) would have been dead before a single real player. They're an unkown variable that I do not care for, especially when we know for sure that they are aligned with the Process, and they have votes. If its left alone it will win by sheer numbers. I'm not going to defend my plan/idea any more because I have been doing so since Day 1 and it is getting old.

DrumBeats wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Later Scotty.

Snapshot was revealed as a role checker. My immediate reaction to that is it's not a good look for DrumBeats. My perception that Snaphot's ISO on DrumBeats didn't seem entirely sincere could be resolved by the role check -- if Snapshot knows DB is bad, then he/she/it has to convey it somehow, and a big ISO is an ideal method.

Also just noticed this. Show me where you thought it wasn't sincere. You agreed with the Snapshot's ISO wholeheartedly iirc.

Scratch that, I looked back and found it in the ISO, my bad.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Later Scotty.

Snapshot was revealed as a role checker. My immediate reaction to that is it's not a good look for DrumBeats. My perception that Snaphot's ISO on DrumBeats didn't seem entirely sincere could be resolved by the role check -- if Snapshot knows DB is bad, then he/she/it has to convey it somehow, and a big ISO is an ideal method.

Also just noticed this. Show me where you thought it wasn't sincere. You agreed with the Snapshot's ISO wholeheartedly iirc.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Later Scotty.

Snapshot was revealed as a role checker. My immediate reaction to that is it's not a good look for DrumBeats. My perception that Snaphot's ISO on DrumBeats didn't seem entirely sincere could be resolved by the role check -- if Snapshot knows DB is bad, then he/she/it has to convey it somehow, and a big ISO is an ideal method.

Or again, the obvious answer: I am threatening Process elements, so the Process wants me dead. And you also seem to want me dead a bit too much as well. You keep trying to build a case on me based solely on the actions of an entity we know is 100% anti-everyone. Also, if Snapshot did check me, what reasoning would it have for saying I am 70% mafia and 30% Process. Should Snapshot somehow be an outside player trying to help who also checked me, it would express certainty that I was either mafia or process not both. I'm really seeing you as the Process right now.

I would also like to see MP answer to the accusations against him when he gets the chance. My vote will likely fall on one of you two.

I'm voting snapshot tonight. See what the fuss is about.

Based on the sheer number of people Snapshot is "quoting" yet seems to have one cohesive voice, I find it highly unlikely that there are multiple people controlling them. I would bet that The Process was given all of these sock accounts to control, but has to abide by certain posting restrictions. Just my guess about how it works.

Mafia, please kill another one tonight. We can just take them out back and forth for a while.

With that, I am going to place my vote as well. Based on what I have seen here, I think Operator is the one I want to pursue. I'm not sure what "Luna" is, but in case it is a process thing, the fact that it voted Snapshot makes me feel like it is trying to make us push that one. Combined with JJJ's disagreement in lynching Operator, if he is the process he could be trying to push us away from the stronger one. All theorizing, but this is pretty clear cut imo.

Operator

Wow, Process wants me dead. In response to JJJ thinking the Process has an agenda in ISO'ing me, that much is obvious. I am a threat to them because I have been and will continue to be the most vocal person in pursuing the eradication of the Process.

Snapshot wrote:quick load//
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Roxy wrote:I think it's time we lynch Drumbeats. I did an ISO on him and here's what I got.

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Spoiler: show

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DrumBeats wrote:Also, in regards to the process, I'm wondering if we have to eliminate every element of the process to destroy it. Hence why Cell is an option to lynch.

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DrumBeats wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

DrumBeats wrote:Also, in regards to the process, I'm wondering if we have to eliminate every element of the process to destroy it. Hence why Cell is an option to lynch.

That would seem to be an impossible task. That'd require quite a few lynches and they'd all take the place of a player lynch, seriously decreasing the number of opportunities to lynch baddies.

Maybe a combo of lynches and scum kills/vigilante kills.

How about we make a deal with scum here, since we both need the Process dead.

If scum kills a process element tonight, we will as a town lynch one tomorrow.

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DrumBeats wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

DrumBeats wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

DrumBeats wrote:Also, in regards to the process, I'm wondering if we have to eliminate every element of the process to destroy it. Hence why Cell is an option to lynch.

That would seem to be an impossible task. That'd require quite a few lynches and they'd all take the place of a player lynch, seriously decreasing the number of opportunities to lynch baddies.

Maybe a combo of lynches and scum kills/vigilante kills.

How about we make a deal with scum here, since we both need the Process dead.

If scum kills a process element tonight, we will as a town lynch one tomorrow.

Wouldn't it be much more efficient to just try to lynch the player with the role? We have no idea how the game will progress from this starting point and what information or circumstances we might encounter to facilitate that hunt. It's a four man scum team, and this kind of significant Process-oriented focus is the opposite of how to pursue their elimination. Pending ability strength variables, I think town starts this game behind the eight ball in the numbers as it is.

Hence why we make it a deal with the scum. We do not get behind if scum shoots the process instead of us. However, if both factions allow the process to go unimpeded for the bulk of the game, I bet it will take both of us down in endgame easily. It seems to have a lot of roles. I think it is very reasonable to be proactive in getting rid of it early, as long as the scumteam proves their cooperation by shooting first. Only person who should be opposed to this arrangement is the process itself.

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DrumBeats wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Lastly, for the idea that DrumBeats proposed regarding working "with the mafia" to eliminate The Process, I don't think worrying about this at this stage is healthy, since:
1) I don't know how we are supposed to effectively hunt for The Process at this time.
2) You can never "trust" the mafia enough to work with them on something.

Nonetheless, it does seem both factions have a mutual benefit in ridding the game of The Process, so I think inadvertently the mafia will be working with us on that matter. I don't think any specific attempt to work with them would be at all fruitful, unless we reach a certain point later in the game where we can somehow try to pinpoint The Process based on actual hunting procedures, and at that time we can re-open this discussion. But that's just my opinion.

Trying to shut down talk of taking out the Process are we? Noted.

It is healthy and arguably necessary to discuss this early in the game. Both factions have a mutual benefit, we will know we can trust the mafia to work with us should they kill one of the process elements tonight. Then we equivalent exchange lynch one the next day. It benefits everyone besides the Process and does nothing to disrupt the town/scum ratio.

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DrumBeats wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

DrumBeats wrote:By what everyone has responded to my plan, it's clear the very few people have actually read, or at least understood, it. I am not proposing that we blindly trust the mafia and repeatedly lynch process elements. I am stating that we should lynch a process element when and only when the mafia nightkills one.

The cheerleader element implies that the mafia can shoot process elements. We don't have to trust the mafia, we literally just wait for them to shoot a process element instead of one of us, and then we lynch a process element the next day. No trust involved because we will know the next day that they kept their end of the bargain.

How does this actually address identifying and killing the person behind the role though?

By allowing us to hit them when the time comes. I guarantee you at least one of those is something that keeps them safe. If we cut off the Process's power it won't be able to hurt us as much later. Also, if you look at the cheerleader it says that it's vote is worth one. I'm worried that the process will get more votes the longer we wait. We've got nothing to lose, assuming mafia targets them and not a civ first.

And in regards to your more recent post, there really is not anything to further this. My only thought on it is that if we do not agree to the terms as a town, I doubt the mafia will target the Process because they would not trust us to keep up our end. Hence why I've been pushing the idea, hoping to save us from a civ shot tonight.

Also, MP, what are your thoughts on Zebra and the potential scumslip I mentioned?

I'll respond with some more reads in a second but my primary one is scum!Zebra

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Roxy wrote:So here's almost half of drumbeats posts, they deal mostly with finding and eliminating the process via targeting the elements. 1st of all, I don't understand were the notion that the elements are the process came from.

Epignosis wrote:The Process will manifest itself in multiple ways.

Makes me think that there are both players and elements that serve the process. Perhaps some are civs and some are mafia. All I know is that this game isn't as clear cut as some believe.

Something to be noted about the last &^*@^#$*& was Drumbeats worry. Drumbeats not only encouraged mafia to kill an element (a cute one at that), but was also worried about the elements. Perhaps that worry caught up to Drumbeats and forced his hand during last nights NK?

Also in Drumbeat's &(*@#(* quote, we see first sign of suspicion towards Zebra, based on supposed slip.

LOLOL LOVE THIS. The Process is trying to spread that the elements are not a part of the Process when they are clearly under the Process in the OP, just like the Camarata are clearly under the Camarata. Lmao nice try, not buying it, try again.


If I were mafia, an element would've been killed night 1. That simple. Eliminating the Process is part of both factions win con, so a back and forth arrangement only hurts the Process itself.

Also note: The Snapshot did not give a complete ISO. Snapshot gave an ISO that served its own motives best. Many of my posts are not in here.

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DrumBeats wrote:Here are the reads I have atm:

Town reads/leans:
MovingPictures07 - Seems to be genuinely pushing discussion
Elohcin - Active and given me no reason to suspect them. Could be a biased opinion due to them being the one person who actually acknowledged my idea without twisting it into "lets ignore the mafia"
JJJ - Seems to be genuinely scumhunting. A little less active than he seems to usually be but he's in a ton of games at once right now iirc.

Null reads:
DrWigly - How the hell do you read somebody like this
Matt - Seems to be different than the conspiracy theory Matt I've seen before, though I'm not sure what that says of his alignment. Very unhelpful and I don't like the early vote, but I'm still not sure here.

Scum reads/leans:
Zebra - Potential scumslip, plus acting WAY too confused about everything. Has contributed nothing and locked a vote way early. My largest scumread right now.
Illyria - Haven't seen much here, but one thing I noticed is that I think Illyria is just skimming. Illyria expressed distaste for my plan saying that we can't trust the mafia and then basically suggested a less civ-beneficial version my plan by saying we should just wait a few days and do it. Should that idea go through it would get rid of scum obligation in removing the threat, which makes me scum lean Illyria a bit.

Dependent read:
Nutella - Depending on the answer to my last question.

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Roxy wrote:A townread on Eloh, a scumread as two players I ANALYZE as being good... noted in Illyria re// Drum seems to have a solid mindset on what the mafia want to do, and will do (from last night). A vague gap left for Wilgy.

@DRUMBEATS how did Wilgy compare to Illyria?

Yes, I townread Eloh day one. As I said, I was biased due to Eloh being the one of few people actually considering working towards taking down the Process. Process is a clear threat, and there was and is an easy way to weaken it. May as well use it.

I have a solid mindset on what both sides win conditions are. Eliminating you is necessary for both so I proposed a deal. Can't help it that the mafia (finally) took it.

I don't recall Wilgy doing much of anything. Any posts he made lacked content imo. Hence the null read.

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DrumBeats wrote:

nutella wrote:Aw bye Illy, sad to see you go. Welcome Mac.

Drum: I admit I didn't fully understand your plan at first. But I still think it's somewhat dangerous to focus on lynching the one rogue rather than the mafia, and we don't even fully understand how targeting elements of the Process works. It just seems like a waste of lynch opportunities to me -- perhaps it would weaken the Process but at the cost of keeping the mafia alive.

Gotcha, thanks for the answer of there was no malicious intent possible. It was an opportunistic suspicion that you thought you could bank on without actually having a base for it.

Current "vote": Nutella

Fabricating a scumread for malicious intent that you cannot back up or provide makes the read feel forced and opportunistic.

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Roxy wrote:Looking back. Calling Nutella Juice opportunistic for not agreeing with your plan and starting the Nutella Juice line of product isn't a good look.

Lmao, quote all of them if you want to actually push a case based on it. I fully explained the situation. It wasn't on nutella not agreeing with my plan, her reference of "malicious intent" within it without being able to provide any possible malicious intent was the reason. If I were suspecting people for not listening to me, almost the whole thread would be a scumread for me right now.

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DrumBeats wrote:

nijuukyugou wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:nijuukyugou

Spoiler: show

nijuukyugou wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:Wait how is it STILL Day 1?

How are you still confused by the mechanics? What's going on with you, zeebs? This is weird as shit.

Linki @ DrumBeats - Your plan, however, at its core, is to trust mafia to any extent, which is not viable. They already have a large team for a speed game with only 17 players. Again, part of the theory works, and I agree we need to keep a hell of an eye on the Process and prevent what we can, but trusting mafia to help civs is not gonna work for a civ win.

This is snipped from a larger post. She asserted that Zebra's behavior was "weird as shit", but didn't make a definitive accusation. I'll follow the progression.

Her comment @DrumBeats strikes me as a misconstruing of what he was proposing. This came after he reiterated/restated his idea to emphasize that it required no actual trust of the baddie team (because it required them to make the first move). I'm not sure what trust nijuu was suggesting had to exist for this plan to function. I don't know whether that means anything, but it's something nijuu can talk about and perhaps that'll substantiate any resulting read.

Argh. Now I understand how DrumBeats felt. I didn't misconstrue what he proposed, at least as far as I know. I know the plan was contingent upon the mafia acting first in civilian favor. I reiterate that even if this happened, it STILL requires trust in the mafia to do the back and forth, and for us to be on their side by lynching an element. They would still have to comply in lynching the element with us, too. But I suppose now that I think about it, it would be hard to hide if you chose not to vote along as an "agreement." Still, it's too risky, their team is too big, and there are too many unknowns at this point, especially at the point that the plan was proposed. Does that make sense? I don't blame him or think he's bad for suggesting the plan; I just don't think it's a good idea.

I'll post more substantially later tonight or tomorrow, but I did want to respond to that first.

Linki - The site's been kinda funky lately, at least for me, and I think others, as well, but tonight it's cooperating

Nope, you don't know how I felt because you didn't have literally the whole thread misconstrue and not actually read what you were saying. I will say it again though, no trust is needed. It doesn't even have to be a back and forth with the mafia, I'm just proposing a 1:1 trade with them. They kill an element instead of us, we lynch one. Easy and harmless for us, and it hurts the Process.

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Roxy wrote:Rather harsh to say the whole thread miscontrue'd something. Miscontrue'd is not a string within my database. Unkown if this hurts the process, but Drum continues pushing the notion.

Not really when they all did. I laid out the plan plain and simple (in posts you ignored nonetheless) and everyone acted like I was saying "omg blindly trust the mafia."

Clearly it does, or you wouldn't be pushing me so hard ;D

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DrumBeats wrote:

thellama73 wrote:I'm glad McDougall is here. He can usually see through the nonsense. The Cell reads JJJ as inconclusive. Is that not suspicious to anyone else?

Think you're grasping at straws there. There are barrels of WIFOM behind anything the Process posts, anything they say about people are inconclusive honestly. You grasping onto that makes me wonder if you're scum or mafia trying to take an easy shot.

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Roxy wrote:All accusations of opportunism are discredited based on data above. Seems to be a common angle with Drum. Slips and calling opportunism. Perhaps it can be called opportunism here, but these claims seem too easy.

Never called it opportunism. I said that anything you and your Process buddies say is WIFOM because the motivations inherent in it are unknown. Are you discrediting someone to make them seem like they aren't the Process when they are, or are you trying to take out someone you perceive to be a threat to the process? We cannot understand the full motivations behind it.

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DrumBeats wrote:

nutella wrote:

DrumBeats wrote:

nutella wrote:Aw bye Illy, sad to see you go. Welcome Mac.

Drum: I admit I didn't fully understand your plan at first. But I still think it's somewhat dangerous to focus on lynching the one rogue rather than the mafia, and we don't even fully understand how targeting elements of the Process works. It just seems like a waste of lynch opportunities to me -- perhaps it would weaken the Process but at the cost of keeping the mafia alive.

Gotcha, thanks for the answer of there was no malicious intent possible. It was an opportunistic suspicion that you thought you could bank on without actually having a base for it.

Current "vote": Nutella

Fabricating a scumread for malicious intent that you cannot back up or provide makes the read feel forced and opportunistic.

What are you talking about? Of course there could be malicious intent in steering the lynches away from the mafia. I said that it would be dangerous, and it was a reasonable at the time to think you might have intentions of keeping the mafia alive. And it still could be, but again I don't really suspect you as much anymore; that doesn't mean my original suspicion was unfounded or opportunistic. It may have been exaggerated by a misunderstanding of your plan but it was still legitimate and can still apply to the clarified plan.

It definitely was opportunistic and here's why:

-All of the info about the plan was out there before you posted it. You knew it was a trade-off rather than a "Let's all lynch only the Process." Despite this, you are only highlighting the part of the plan that allows for a push, ie the "wasting" of a lynch. Intentionally neglecting the requirements for us to "waste" our lynch, which is the mafia "wasting" their kill on the previous night, makes your reasoning seem sound, despite its numerous fallacies.

-Enough people were uncomfortable with the idea at the time that it would be an opportunity for an easy push based on mere paranoia. Pointing out "malicious intent" without specifying anything was a great way to try to shift that paranoia into a mislynch, either that day or down the line.

-Nothing has changed about my plan since you made this post, but now that you have received backlash for it, the suspicion is no longer present. The only two things that have changed are that you have received backlash and that a few more people are opening up to my idea. The fact that you let go of your suspicion now shows that it is likely due to either wanting to avoid the backlash, or realizing the opportunity to push a mislynch on it is gone now, because nothing about the plan/my behavior has changed. Also, in your first response to my question about the malicious intent, you never elaborated upon it, just starting to give the "I didn't fully understand it" defense, which we will get into in the next bullet point

-The confusion about the plan allows for the easy cop out defense which you are providing right now: "I didn't understand it." It was very clearly laid out, and for town!you to develop a scumread upon it, I would expect you to have paid enough attention to it to know both aspects of it and that it hinges upon the mafia acting first, therefore maintaining a 1:1 lynch:kill ratio.

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Roxy wrote:I find this humorous. RIP in peace Nutella brand Juice cartons.

Oh ok so you actually quote the post with the full reasoning but still insist it was just for "disagreeing with me". I find this humorous

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DrumBeats wrote:I've laid out my reasons and I do not find Elo to be a better option imo.

Nutella

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Roxy wrote:Mentioning Elo, where it doesn't need to be mentioned is a very bad look.

Elo was the main wagon, and I did not believe Elo to be more scummy than Nutella. If I were scum with Eloh, there would have been no reason for me to not hop onto that wagon for town cred because it was pretty clear that Elo was going to be the lynch.
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fixed!>.

Roxy wrote:My final processing of Drumbeats is rather bad. Two theories come to mind. He's either mafia, or he is somehow aligned with the process. These set in stone thoughts about the process leads me to believe he might know more than others, and wants others to think in a certain manner. His confiding in the mafia to eliminate us also can point to either Drum being mafia or process. I do not believe eliminating me will assist in your search for the process, and I do believe we are being scapegoated. Mentions of Elo that are wrong, or misplaced cause for worry. Voting off wagon civs until his wagon came around is not good either.

Final percent:
70% Mafia
30% Process

LMAO - When the Process calls you the Process. Eliminating a Process element may not help the search, but it does stop you from controlling late game lynches. You clearly have a large stockpile of votes, we have already seen two positive votes and one negative, which could be used to drop a competing wagon. And that's only the ones we can see currently. We need to get rid of these voting elements plain and simple.

Explain how for both of these things. Neither conclusion makes any sense.

The fact that you left no room for the possibility of me being civ in your read proves that you are not an outside player. This is clearly the Process speaking and trying to push an agenda.

results final//
terminating engine process//

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DrumBeats

Thanks for that, I needed a good laugh. So yeah. We need to lynch one of these. I actually based on that ISO suspect JJJ or MP to be the Process controlling all of these. One thing I noticed was that the whole time JJJ posted, he was uninterupted by these Socks.

Thanks mafia!

I say we lynch an element today. Operator has a name that sounds important imo, snapshot is probably a decent option too. Cell seems relatively useless so I would suggest leaving cell alive.

agleaminranks wrote:I'm a little confused as to why no one heeded the post I made the other day. I think this is a huge tell-all. To restate,

Royce Bracket
Flood ( )- Sometimes…people can be…contagious. People can be contagious. Whoever targets your target the same Night will be silenced and unable to vote while they recover.

This got revealed on the role sheet a few days ago, I noticed, and it made me go back and re-examine some of the votes that had previously been cast, in light of the people who were supposedly silenced.

First night was sig, who was apparently silenced for the following day. If he was telling the truth, which, since he was lynched, I am more inclined to believe now than I was before, there is also another role that silences people for the day.

With this in mind, it seems likely to me that this person would probably isolate their nightvote targets (or even not vote altogether) so as to avoid being outed with that information. I know I had made a criticism that it seemed unlikely for more than one person to be silenced or anything, but now I'm a little more inclined to believe it's possible.

Given that both nutella and DrumBeats voted for the same element the first night and DB could vote and chat the first day, I don't think nutella is bad. Assuming I'm interpreting the role correctly.

Of the people who are still alive, there is only one person who fits the following criteria: has so far been the only person to target a Process element alone or not voted at all, and that is kneel4justice. If we're going by that strategy, it seems possible that K4J could be the role in question.

However, in looking at the players who only had one overlapping vote with another person on a night vote, that would be thellama. On Night 1 he shares a vote with sig who is promptly nightkilled. Given that sig would not have been around to even be silenced or voteblocked, it would make perfect sense for covering up this role in hindsight.

I do not feel comfortable contributing to nutella's lynch. I would rather target one of the two aformentioned. I believe there is a baddie among them, particularly the role I quoted above. I am placing my vote on thellama for today. I will try and analyze both in more detail coming soon.

I think you're looking at this wrong. I think it is talking of night actions, not the vote for which process element to reveal.


In addition, I am happy to get behind the vote for nutella, she has been my top scumread for a while.

MovingPictures07 wrote:

DrumBeats wrote:Here are the reads I have atm:

Town reads/leans:
MovingPictures07 - Seems to be genuinely pushing discussion
Elohcin - Active and given me no reason to suspect them. Could be a biased opinion due to them being the one person who actually acknowledged my idea without twisting it into "lets ignore the mafia"
JJJ - Seems to be genuinely scumhunting. A little less active than he seems to usually be but he's in a ton of games at once right now iirc.

Null reads:
DrWigly - How the hell do you read somebody like this
Matt - Seems to be different than the conspiracy theory Matt I've seen before, though I'm not sure what that says of his alignment. Very unhelpful and I don't like the early vote, but I'm still not sure here.

Scum reads/leans:
Zebra - Potential scumslip, plus acting WAY too confused about everything. Has contributed nothing and locked a vote way early. My largest scumread right now.
Illyria - Haven't seen much here, but one thing I noticed is that I think Illyria is just skimming. Illyria expressed distaste for my plan saying that we can't trust the mafia and then basically suggested a less civ-beneficial version my plan by saying we should just wait a few days and do it. Should that idea go through it would get rid of scum obligation in removing the threat, which makes me scum lean Illyria a bit.

Dependent read:
Nutella - Depending on the answer to my last question.

Speaking of which, in digging up those posts, I recall this post from DrumBeats literally right after my first rainbow list wherein he too expressed a town read of Elo for similar reasons. Perhaps those of you who still are wondering about why anyone was town reading Elo at that point in the game can get DrumBeats's insight as well?

Honestly I think a lot of it was my frustration with bashing my idea into the the wall for you guys made me focus a bit too much on it for all of these reads. Basically, I hadn't seen anything suspicious, there was good activity, and Elo agreed with me about the Process plan. At that early of a point, that was good enough for me. I was trying to focus more on the scumslip I thought I saw in Zebra and my dependent suspicions on nutella at the time.

The revelation that the three people were alphabetical makes me relatively comfortable that it is not a one of each alignment type thing, but it was a fun theory at least I guess.

Vote Nerolunar

I would much prefer this to be on nutella right now, but sadly that is not an option.

And based on that idea, I have a question for everyone. EVERYONE SHOULD ANSWER THIS:

If that is the case, and the three available on the poll are one town, one mafia, and the Process, who do you think is each?

My opinion:
Town-MovingPictures07
Process-nijuukyugou
Mafia-Nerolunar

Conspiracy theory: What if it is 1 town, 1 mafia, and 1 independent (Process)?

Good catch on Elo people who voted her.

Is everyone willing to do a 1:1 exchange with the mafia right now, assuming they strike first? We can't ignore the process throughout the game and expect to win imo