The Syndicate

Bea, I am not sure what you want me to say. I was wrong, very hideously wrong. I read back and caught up last night, but there was not much more that I could say than what I did say

Thanks for your take on Sorsha; my experience is that Sorsha is direct, and not not flinch back from speaking her mind. And in the two posts that caught my eye, the one before and the other after Goldens lynch, she was pretty clearly pointing to me, IMO, but she was strangely reluctant to say so.

Before:

Sorsha wrote:

DrWilgy wrote:

Sorsha wrote: My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

I'm upto date and I'm not voting for Golden. Sorsha, what has you thinking someone hounding him is framing him?

If it is one of the players hounding him, who are they? DH, SVS and rey?

Well my thought was that they killed epi to frame golden to set up a golden lynch the next day, once that didn't happen they have had to step up their accusations against him to get the lynch train going to golden.

I don't agree with the conclusions svs has come to on golden. I have to re read dh and Rey a bit. I was just throwing it out there to see what others are thinking on it.

I should add that I'm not 100% caught up... It's just too much to read so I'm sorry if this stuff was covered already.

The nice soft defending, the, "Hrm who COULD it be?" I actually picture her posing just like the "ponder" smiley.

After:

Sorsha wrote:

DrWilgy wrote:Wilgy clads himself in armor. The sun shines off his helmet blinding the crowd as he grabs his sword and shield. A cloud covers the sun and the reflection dissipates. The crowd can now see that Wilgy's sword and shield are both Golden*

Bring it on. Sorsha, I've had abit to drink tonight. Why don't you join me and tell me who framed Roger Rabit (Golden)?

Vote registered for Sorsha

Thats a good question Wilgy.. was it a frame or was it the result of a redirect (Ahriman), target switch (Master of Ancient Arts), switching three roles powers (Chaos Dancer) or a repel of kill to the Magnetarch?

Looks like Scotty has made a nice post about who may have framed Golden.

Do you think Golden was framed Wigly? And why did you vote for me? Also, what are your thoughts on the day ending early and no night?

Gee, the post of Scotty's that she refers to has my name at the top in giant letters. It feels like she is trying to lead horses to water here. She seems to want people to reach this conclusion on their own as opposed to making a case and taking responsibility. Had she just come right out and said it, I would have felt a lot better about her, tbh. Sorsha & I may have had our moments over the years, but one thing I will always say about her is that when she thinks she is in the right (not right as in "correct" but "in the right" as in righteous sense) Sorsha flatly refuses to pull punches.

Punches are being pulled all over the place in these two posts, punches just flying everywhere, except directly at me. So I will take your take on it into consideration. Plus not sure how much of this is defensiveness on my part, although as I said, when she made that first post while Golden was still alive, it went through my mind that the next frame up was on the backburner, and it was me.

I am going to reread a few specific people today; and then discuss my thoughts on them. After the Golden thing, I am feeling kinda tender about having an opinion about anything and am in second guess central. But a few people have gotten my attention, so a reread is in order. As for lists, i won't do them. Especially in a game with a lot of factions, as this one is. I have a fairly good example of my reasons in MPs big rainbow post. My first reaction to that was not a warm, fuzzy, "Aw MP thinks I am not a baddie for once!". It was "OMFG, why is MP drawing a huge target on my back??"

Anyone who played back in the day on LP/TP/RM will get that right away. Times they are a changin', but in a game with more than one bad group, they ain't a changin' that much.

thellama73 wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Ricochet wrote:Also, I don't think players can ever just come in and shout they've been forced to vote or do something; they can try to signal it, at least. So MP heavily denying to have been forced doesn't fully detract me from finding the other version to be a plausible signal or tactic in dealing with a forced vote. In fact, a pee fountain sort of signaling.

Is there really any precedent for players abjectly denying that they were forced to so something they didn't want to do when that is in fact the truth? Couldn't they just ignore those comments to allow the theories to survive instead of putting a concerted effort into eliminating them?

I've flatly denied being forced to do things I was forced to do in many a game.

In some hosts games, the host punishes you if you let on that you have been forced, and if directly asked, you had best deny it. So denial does not mean much. I do not recall if these hosts are punishers or not, I try not to run afoul of their directives.

Just home, will read back to this AM.

Happy Birthday BR

Golden I am terribly sorry. King Arthur all over again. Tonight I will pull the quote up and sig it for you. That said, I did not frame you.

Some people can't read the spoiler tage on their skin, and that post is too long to quote, so I will link it:

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... d7#p171628

I don't know the last time YOU framed someone, Scotty (or you, for that matter,too, Sorsha) but the last time I framed someone, I was their biggest defender in the thread. I avenged their death. I carefully avoided the thread when their biggest detractors were there. I watched them die and the point of the frame was not them being dead (although that was a bonus)~ the point was all the civvie cred I got by sticking up for them. Framing someone by killing their loudest opponent, and then attacking them for it is a losing maneouver, becasue, um, they were framed and everyone knows it, doh. This popped into my mind when someone came into the thread, I believe it was Sorsha, but not 100% sure, I will check when not on phone, and made that post about how she had not played for a while, and maybe her memory was faulty, but gee, when someone was framed, didn't their framers hound them most in the thread? Who WERE those people? It popped into my head that the one being framed was ME, lol. But I blew that off, becasue I was really pretty sure Maybe I should not have, and maybe it was just a gut reaction i had to a passing remark, not unlike the reaction I had to Goldens post about Epis death.

I am looking forward to the comparing the reactions of all those who seemed to think an unrecruited Bass lynch was OK to THIS lynch. I really am. I am ready to call hypocrite if the rejoicing for Bass' death is replaced by dirges for Goldens. No one is sorrier for Goldens death than I, and I think he knows that knowing the history we have.

Linki~ yeah, I really wish Wilgy would stop using MPs avatar. It's disconcerting.

"Intentionally baiting people into setting me up"

Bah. And now that, in your version of events, that is what happened, you are all indignant that it worked?

I call shenanigans. Well, i called shenanigans days ago, but I still call them ha ha. Later guys.

This was my initial reaction to the Night Post:

S~V~S wrote:Who the fuck would kill Typhoony on Night One of his first game back in years?

Lame

And then Epi as well. Golden being ballsy or Golden being set up?

Then~

Golden wrote:I was not directly responsible for killing epi. I was intentionally baiting people into setting me up, though. I suspected that if I made enough of my intention to kill epi, someone else would do it.

I am very sad to see Typhoony die already, I agree with SVS it's a lame kill hope you get a rezz, typh.

This post. I don't see how you could say this and not be bad. How this post could be anything other than trying to WIFOM out of it. I have sat in chatrooms myself and said, "OMG, he's gotta go, and I don't care how it makes me look. I can talk my way out of it", and that is what i think you did, too. That is what that post says as far as I am concerned. Anything after that post is just additional layers of WIFOM.

You will notice that my whole attitude towards you CHANGED after this post. Most of Day 1, I was pretty firmly in the civ/civ camp (and meaning civ/civ as a commonly used term for "neither is bad" not as a statement that I thought either was specifically civ or neutral or what have you, lol, for the semantics nazis). I have said it before, but will repeat it. That post chilled me. I did not feel that you would have said such a thing if you were other than bad, and I still feel that way.

I think it's kinda fun that since I am not letting it go, you are now threatening to vote for me. Have fun. It would just be another baddie move since the only think that has changed about me since you first said i was sincere is, hm, nothing. I have not changed my mind here, or my tune, and nothing will make me "unsee" that post. I think you can make all the awesome arguments you want, it does not make them true.

And I read those posts. I have no reason to think Epi was a baddie recruiter. Not sure why you would think that either. As I have said, I think that wither you ARE Azura, or Azure is someone not as familiar with your preference for being a civ. I just cannot reconcile that post up there^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ with civ ANYONE.

I will be happy to make sig bets, lame as some may think they are, but i won't include anything about future games. I have seen that at another forum, and I think it's a horrible idea and not fair to the host or players of subsequent games.

Linki @ JJJ, yeah, I can dig my heels in if I think I am right

So after days of saying I was sincere, now I am being intentionally false?

I probably would have bought the frame theory if you had not made that one post after Epi died. I believed then, and still believe now, with all my heart, that a baddie made that post.

Linki, I will cross that bridge when I come to it. But I don't think I will ever come to it. I doubt you will be lynched, you talked your way out of it. Then tomorrow I will be NKed probably, and it will be another attempt to frame poor Golden. And if you are lynched, I dont think you will come up good.

If Black Rock says otherwise, I will move my vote, but I think we are supposed to revote. The parking spot is so you can see the poll without voting.

Now Golden's saying any argument that arrives at a conclusion that he could be bad is illogical and fallacious. He is trying to imply persecution of him when, hello, its a Mafia game. Discussion of and defending against suspicions is how the game is played.

REVOTING FOR GOLDEN

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I don't know about The Syndicate, but in my experience appeal to emotion is a town tell far more often than an anti-town tell. That doesn't mean players should be exonerated for making emotional posts, but those emotional posts shouldn't be doubted simply for being emotional.

Really? That is not what i took away from watching the Championship Series. I recall people being dismissed for the appeal to emotion, it was considered a tactic, iirc, and a weak one at that. I am Ok with saying this since I know it is something I have been known to do as a baddie myself.

I have got to say that today has been the MOST emotionally manipulative day I have ever read, lol.

I am happy with my vote where it is.

Scotty wrote:

S~V~S wrote:

Sorsha wrote:I see that golden is heading out and might not be back much but I have a question or two. Anyone else can weigh in on the answer as well. I have been away from mafia for a while and don't know/can't remember all the player dynamics.

First of all I'm of the mind that golden is not on the team that killed epi night one. I know golden still claims responsibility like that team is going to do his bidding for him but I'd think their motive was more to frame him. Anyone in particular come to mind as one who would do that?

My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

You have not played with Epignosis much. I think it is unlikely that it is a frame becasue if I were a baddie, an Epi/Golden thread derailment would be a major wet dream. Had Epi not died, we would have had 2 more days of nonstop, escalating sniping and talking about almost nothing but Epi & Golden. Any bad team would eat that up. UNLESS Golden or Epi was on their team.

Having played bad against Epi a zillion times, as soon as he mentions a teammate, I kill him, lol. I think most baddies do. But if he doesn't, then he's awesome alive. He's tenacious and always stone certain he is right regardless of whether that is true or not.

So I think either Golden is on Azuras team, OR Azura herself and her first recruit are someone fairly unfamiliar with our site player dynamics. And Goldens reaction to Epis death scotched that for me, tbh. I thought a frame was an outside possibility until golden started talking.

Linki, the poll can't be edited once people vote, the votes will be lost. So the hosts will have to decide if they want thread voting or to ask people who already voted to revote.

Good to know.


Also, @Hosts, What is the plan for the poll tonight? Are you tallying the votes at 10p and then making another 24 hr poll? Or what? Thanks!

Ha ha, it became predictable to the point that I felt like i was being kind of a bitch about it. The last few games I changed my strategy re him, but he is a hard one to get around.

DrWilgy wrote:

Sorsha wrote: My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

I'm upto date and I'm not voting for Golden. Sorsha, what has you thinking someone hounding him is framing him?

If it is one of the players hounding him, who are they? DH, SVS and rey?

Yeah, good question. I would like to hear what she thinks as well.

Linki @JJJ~ there is always an exception. I still think a derailment is a better proposition early in the game than a frame.

Golden wrote:SVS, the killing of epi derailed the thread. Are you telling me that what has occurred would not be a desirable outcome?

Also, if my goal was to kill epi so as to minimise the amount of attention on me in the thread (which has to be the reason, right?) then why do I immediately go and say something that will inevitably immediately reinvite that attention?

I think that you came out saying the worst possible thing as it would help you wifom your way out of it. I do that ALOT. You're too slick, good or bad, to do something so clumsy without calculation imo.

If I am wrong I am very sorry. But I really don't think I am.

Sorsha wrote:I see that golden is heading out and might not be back much but I have a question or two. Anyone else can weigh in on the answer as well. I have been away from mafia for a while and don't know/can't remember all the player dynamics.

First of all I'm of the mind that golden is not on the team that killed epi night one. I know golden still claims responsibility like that team is going to do his bidding for him but I'd think their motive was more to frame him. Anyone in particular come to mind as one who would do that?

My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

You have not played with Epignosis much. I think it is unlikely that it is a frame becasue if I were a baddie, an Epi/Golden thread derailment would be a major wet dream. Had Epi not died, we would have had 2 more days of nonstop, escalating sniping and talking about almost nothing but Epi & Golden. Any bad team would eat that up. UNLESS Golden or Epi was on their team.

Having played bad against Epi a zillion times, as soon as he mentions a teammate, I kill him, lol. I think most baddies do. But if he doesn't, then he's awesome alive. He's tenacious and always stone certain he is right regardless of whether that is true or not.

So I think either Golden is on Azuras team, OR Azura herself and her first recruit are someone fairly unfamiliar with our site player dynamics. And Goldens reaction to Epis death scotched that for me, tbh. I thought a frame was an outside possibility until golden started talking.

Linki, the poll can't be edited once people vote, the votes will be lost. So the hosts will have to decide if they want thread voting or to ask people who already voted to revote.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

thellama73 wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: What I find dubious, llama, is that you don't seem willing to grant that what I was doing was directly relevant to "detecting bad guys". I wasn't forcing Bass to "dance for my amusement" at all.

There are lots of things you coul have asked Bass. I don't think demanding reads on random people was productive at all. It just seemed mean.

I certainly didn't intend to be mean. I intended to generate meaningful information to further my own understanding of Bass. Bass, if you found my behavior distasteful then I apologize for that.

Did anyone else feel that way? I ask because if this perspective is a trend then I'll need to reassess my approach. I don't want to baddie hunt so hard that I become a jerk.

I don't think it was 'mean' per se; I think it was obvious he was flailing at that point, and asking questions like that was setting him up for failure. I would say that those questions were intentionally designed to make Bass flail worse than he already was. Whether that is because you legitimately thought him bad or because he was the best option for a mislynch, I don't know.

Rather unsurprisingly I am going to vote for Golden.

Golden wrote:

DharmaHelper wrote:

DH: I think is playing a neutral game and was happy to vote for me a threat. I've no problem seeing that as genuine.

DH - I don't buy that you are scared for a second. It's just more bullshit. If I successfully baited an epi kill, there is no way I succeed in doing that twice.

Lets play Which One of These Did Golden Say?

If you guessed both, you are correct.

I don't think you are scared that I am going to get you killed, which is what you claimed. I have no problem believing you simply have no qualms getting me out because you see me as a threat. Those are two different things.

Didn't you brag about getting Epi killed?

Anyone who thought Epi was civ/unrecruited may see you as a threat.

So you are blaming the dead non baddie for his own death?

So you must hate the idea of rainbowlists? Where they rank players from least to most trusted?

While I agree with you, I am afraid that the world has moved on.

I think Rainbow lists in a game with 2 sets of baddies are just basically a hit list for the baddies, tbh. Painting giant targets on people. In games with one bad team, not so much, but in games like this it really is just a big target fest.

Just walked in, need to catch up

I meant Rey and DH who were both on staff with you at ZRM, Golden.

Speaking of Golden's meta, I find it intriguing that the three people playing this game that have known him and his game the longest ALL voted for him.

Also Position 3

DharmaHelper wrote:I'm not gonna read that ever.

I skimmed it for my name

Scotty said: Golden v SVS: SportsCenter highlights of a semantics contest. SVS has nitpicked pieces of Golden's arguments over the course of the game as a telling sign of "non-civ" behavior. Golden has straight up defended her to the nose, and some would say beyond what would be deemed satisfactory.

You are confusing me with someone else. I did not semantically nitpick him. I am talking about his meta and his tone as well as my assessment of the kill itself. And "some" (you?) may think he has defended beyond what is necessary, but I do not say that since I think he is the one who killed Epignosis, as in Azuma or her teammate. Believe me, I have been where Golden is, and I have happily killed Epignosis night one in past games when he was on my back figuring I could WIFOM my way out of it becasue being on the receiving end of his schtick can be hurtful & maddening. When you are somewhat intellectually vain (as many of us who play this game are), Epis tone can be infuriating. He is condescending and pretty much calls people fools and their defenses against his "arguments" ridiculous. It may be fun to watch when it isn't *you* but not so much when it is. Golden is someone who does not suffer being called a fool well.

Plus I do not think the baddies would have accommodated him so easily. Baddies love nothing more than a huge one on one civ fight. It keeps everyones attention off of them and talking about the arguing parties. Why the hell would they kill Epignosis? To frame Golden? I considered that as well, but with Epi alive and focused on Golden, why waste their kill? The end result would be Golden dead and Epi marginalized. The only way it makes sense for me is if Golden was on the team that killed Epi.

Scotty subsequently said: SVS - some posts seem like she'll talk a big game over someone, and then she'll fade into the darkness.

This is how I play; I watch & I listen until something catches my eye, and then I settle in to dig the Holland Tunnel.

When Golden is not bad, he is like a Knight in shining armor. He is good and brave and true; he does what is right even if it is not necessarily what is in his best interests. This is why i have said "pod person" more than once. I don't know who this is right now wearing that Golden suit, tbh. I firmly believe that if Golden were a neutral, he would be playing for the civs. And I don't see that at all.

That sucks, Bass <3

DrWilgy wrote:*begins a slow clap*

?

I think Goiden did it.

Golden wrote:

S~V~S wrote:

Golden wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:I can definitely see how you (or anyone) would view Golden as a threat at this point. He basically stopped short of calling the Epignosis kill "a demonstration".

I do see the irony in SVS seeing me as a threat and wants to vote me, essentially because I did what I could to get rid of the person I thought was a threat.

Um I am voting for you, but if you do not get lynched, I will not try to get the baddies to kill you.

Well I think I've made it very clear epi was a one off too, but it doesn't stop everyone pretending like I'm going to do it to them next.

I don't believe you. I think you killed him, tbh. If I am wrong, I am sorry. But I think this is an admirably ballsy attempt to wifom out of killing your persecutor.

Golden wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:I can definitely see how you (or anyone) would view Golden as a threat at this point. He basically stopped short of calling the Epignosis kill "a demonstration".

I do see the irony in SVS seeing me as a threat and wants to vote me, essentially because I did what I could to get rid of the person I thought was a threat.

Um I am voting for you, but if you do not get lynched, I will not try to get the baddies to kill you.

As I said, I think it very possible that Golden killed Epi directly and is relying on the old WIFOM. In any case, with his "if you are not for me, you should be dead" atttitude, I feel he is a threat to me.

Linki, no not at all. It has zero to do with honesty, and everything to do with intent. Pod Golden. Not honest Golden, i know Honest Golden.

I disagree.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:I suddenly feel like I should be paying more attention to Jay

I just want to be noticed.

Spoiler: show

You need to freak out more. That gets the attention

Turnip Head wrote:

S~V~S wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:S~V~S, to elaborate, I suppose I just feel as though you're putting Golden up to an expectation that is unreasonable, considering he has been quite open about playing a neutral game, and that Epi was a serious threat to Golden's immediate livelihood. I think it's key to note how emotionally-charged Golden's play has been this game, due to being under constant defense for his well being, and from Epi for a while at that.

I feel his behavior in this game is contrary to his non-baddie meta as I know it.

Do you better understand it put like that?

I feel like Golden is playing similar to how he started out in HSK actually, sparring with Epignosis and all. He just took it... a little further this time. I've only seen Golden bad in one game, when he subbed back into Economics, and he played nothing like he is here. He was calm and collected and attracted no attention.

I never said he is playing like a baddie. I said he is not playing like civ-centric Golden. What if he decides I am incompatible with him? Or you? I am flabbergasted that anyone is actually defending this.

I believe that he killed Epi and is going for the WIFOM. And if Bass does not flip bad, I will wonder about the hard push for him at this point.

S~V~S wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:S~V~S, to elaborate, I suppose I just feel as though you're putting Golden up to an expectation that is unreasonable, considering he has been quite open about playing a neutral game, and that Epi was a serious threat to Golden's immediate livelihood. I think it's key to note how emotionally-charged Golden's play has been this game, due to being under constant defense for his well being, and from Epi for a while at that.

I feel his behavior in this game is contrary to his non-baddie meta as I know it.

Do you better understand it put like that?

To be precise, i feel he is behaving contrary to the non-baddie standard he sets for HIMSELF. I did not set him this standard; he did, and he knows I am right is saying so.

MovingPictures07 wrote:S~V~S, to elaborate, I suppose I just feel as though you're putting Golden up to an expectation that is unreasonable, considering he has been quite open about playing a neutral game, and that Epi was a serious threat to Golden's immediate livelihood. I think it's key to note how emotionally-charged Golden's play has been this game, due to being under constant defense for his well being, and from Epi for a while at that.

I feel his behavior in this game is contrary to his non-baddie meta as I know it.

Do you better understand it put like that?

MovingPictures07 wrote:

S~V~S wrote:It's not that I don't think it's ballsy; I think it is uncharacteristic to the point of lunacy.

And JJJ, ask Golden if my assessment is not correct, since you want proof of five years of accumulated experience (albeit that part of it involved hiatuses) of Goldens gameplay. I have NEVER seen civ Golden make a selfish move, and i am hard put to think of a time Indy Golden did so. I might admire this move in some players; but not in Golden. It feels false and it feels bad.

Linki @ Golden~ but everyone else who expressed an opinion DID think he was a civ. And you disregarded us totally.

You and these others seriously thought Epignosis was a civilian recruiter or the first recruited?

I want to see substantiation for this because I do not remember this conversation.

It was not a conversation, but numerous people said they thought it was civ on civ; I recall no one saying they thought Epi was bad except Golden. And I guess I should have said civ or neutral. But I said civ since I recall several people saying they thought it to be civ on civ.

It's not that I don't think it's ballsy; I think it is uncharacteristic to the point of lunacy.

And JJJ, ask Golden if my assessment is not correct, since you want proof of five years of accumulated experience (albeit that part of it involved hiatuses) of Goldens gameplay. I have NEVER seen civ Golden make a selfish move, and i am hard put to think of a time Indy Golden did so. I might admire this move in some players; but not in Golden. It feels false and it feels bad.

Linki @ Golden~ but everyone else who expressed an opinion DID think he was a civ. And you disregarded us totally.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

reywaS wrote:

reywaS wrote:Also, Golden, you getting so upset that someone might think you are not being honest in a game of mafia doesn't look good for you.

EBWOP

What would you say if I told you that in a very recent game I played with Golden, he was equally insistent on his claimed honesty being respected on the purest moral basis that honesty is virtuous -- and he was a townie?

What would you say if i told you that in the perhaps 20 games i have played with Golden in about 5 years, he has consistently put the civ group above himself, even when a neutral or independant?

Golden wrote:

S~V~S wrote:

Golden wrote:I was not directly responsible for killing epi. I was intentionally baiting people into setting me up, though. I suspected that if I made enough of my intention to kill epi, someone else would do it.

I am very sad to see Typhoony die already, I agree with SVS it's a lame kill hope you get a rezz, typh.

This nonchalance. This post chilled me. You cared not a whit what anyone else thought. You felt that he was incompatible with you, so he had to go. I feel that YOU are incompatible with the rest of us if this is how you feel.

I feel like this vote is really personal. If it's not, ok, but it's certainly the way our discussion has felt today. It feels like you have a personal distaste for the fact I set out to get epi dead, from the start when you are saying it's not golden-like.

I've always made big moves, and the biggest ones I make are against the people I think are most likely to be bad. I don't know what impact me trying to bait the kill actually had, but I really hate that being honest about the fact that this is what I was trying to do has led to some of the things that have been said about me. I didn't need to say it, I could have kept my mouth shut. You specifically asked if I was being set up, I gave my honest view on what may have happened.

I said a long time ago, that anyone who feels like the move against epi was in poor taste, I understand if you vote against me. But I would appreciate the honest truth about it. I don't want to be left wondering.

It's totally not personal. I <3 you and you know it. I just feel that you are acting SO out of character that I cannot trust you. That you are a rogue and a threat to everyone with this attitude, this thought that it is OK.

Golden wrote:I was not directly responsible for killing epi. I was intentionally baiting people into setting me up, though. I suspected that if I made enough of my intention to kill epi, someone else would do it.

I am very sad to see Typhoony die already, I agree with SVS it's a lame kill hope you get a rezz, typh.

This nonchalance. This post chilled me. You cared not a whit what anyone else thought. You felt that he was incompatible with you, so he had to go. I feel that YOU are incompatible with the rest of us if this is how you feel.

Golden wrote:

DharmaHelper wrote:VOTE REGISTERED FOR GOLDEN I'm not sure I want to wait for him to consider it impossible for myself and he to be on the same team :P

Why, are you scared that me deciding that would actually lead to your death?

YOU Seem to think that it led to Epis, so

Ricochet wrote:

S~V~S wrote:

Ricochet wrote:G-Man's vote for TH seems a bit weak sauce for me, especially given that it's relatively fixed for the day, since he might have return. I get the "he's on my no-read list from which I intended to vote someone" more than the "let's test out if Speaker is genuine or ignorable". I've mentioned that it's highly unlikely the Speaker got to check and inform on his check in the same first Night of the game. When do we really test out what a messenger suspects? If he's spot on about TH being, let's say, a recruited baddie (aka the purest form of baddie at this point), he passes the test and receive eternal cred, and if he's wrong about TH being anything, we discret him, after just one night, for the rest of the game? This is even more interesting coming from G-Man who was Messenger in his last game.

All of the votes so far for him have pretty weak reasonings. Bubbles said nothing whatosever on the matter. MM also acts like the Speaker was sent from Heavens. Also @linki: aapje just came in fact with way better reads for suspecting TH, nevertheless all those were not reasons any of TH's voters brought up so far for voting him.

This pretty much sums up how I feel about the TH votes. I find that remark he made to be brow raising, but not enough to merit a vote, gossip or not. TH is a strong player, and I am not ready to experiment on him just yet. I have not seen anything from my day one vote, Bullz, to alarm me so i doubt I will vote for him again today, although i plan to keep an eye on him. He plays a pretty seamless recruited game in my experience.

I think I will reread some of these peoples posts, but I am still really highly disturbed by Golden, tbh. It is like he's a pod person Golden, lol.

Linki @BWT, I did not vote for you, or particularly think you were bad Day One; why do you think I did?

What do you mean by "gossip (or not)"? Also, I assume you mean TH's remark, but what do you make of G-Man leaving it at that?

I missed this Rico.

Gossip or not is just a turn of phrase, shorthand for "regardless of what the gossip says". I don't put great stock in gossip, I have been it's victim one time too many. The tradtional term is a Gossip role, "Messenger" is newer. I prefer Gossip since it puts what they say in perspective. And yes, "remark" the point aapje made about TH saying all the recruiters were bad.

As I said, your points pretty much summed up my feeling about all of those voters, including G Man. But as I also said, I find Golden to alarm me the most. He's like a Rogue, and rogues are scary.

@BWT, ok, that makes sense. I was like

Bullzeye wrote:

S~V~S wrote: This pretty much sums up how I feel about the TH votes. I find that remark he made to be brow raising, but not enough to merit a vote, gossip or not. TH is a strong player, and I am not ready to experiment on him just yet. I have not seen anything from my day one vote, Bullz, to alarm me so i doubt I will vote for him again today, although i plan to keep an eye on him. He plays a pretty seamless recruited game in my experience.

I don't think I've played a seamless game my entire life! Lost Revolution was like the biggest fluke ever.

Ha ha ha, well, you were a seamless recruit there. So it was an awesome fluke. I was so impressed!

DharmaHelper wrote:VOTE REGISTERED FOR GOLDEN I'm not sure I want to wait for him to consider it impossible for myself and he to be on the same team :P

Yeah, this. I find the whole nonchalance about the whole thing to be almost chilling, tbh. Everything else I have seen seems like a little ping next to it.

VOTING FOR GOLDEN

Ricochet wrote:G-Man's vote for TH seems a bit weak sauce for me, especially given that it's relatively fixed for the day, since he might have return. I get the "he's on my no-read list from which I intended to vote someone" more than the "let's test out if Speaker is genuine or ignorable". I've mentioned that it's highly unlikely the Speaker got to check and inform on his check in the same first Night of the game. When do we really test out what a messenger suspects? If he's spot on about TH being, let's say, a recruited baddie (aka the purest form of baddie at this point), he passes the test and receive eternal cred, and if he's wrong about TH being anything, we discret him, after just one night, for the rest of the game? This is even more interesting coming from G-Man who was Messenger in his last game.

All of the votes so far for him have pretty weak reasonings. Bubbles said nothing whatosever on the matter. MM also acts like the Speaker was sent from Heavens. Also @linki: aapje just came in fact with way better reads for suspecting TH, nevertheless all those were not reasons any of TH's voters brought up so far for voting him.

This pretty much sums up how I feel about the TH votes. I find that remark he made to be brow raising, but not enough to merit a vote, gossip or not. TH is a strong player, and I am not ready to experiment on him just yet. I have not seen anything from my day one vote, Bullz, to alarm me so i doubt I will vote for him again today, although i plan to keep an eye on him. He plays a pretty seamless recruited game in my experience.

I think I will reread some of these peoples posts, but I am still really highly disturbed by Golden, tbh. It is like he's a pod person Golden, lol.

Linki @BWT, I did not vote for you, or particularly think you were bad Day One; why do you think I did?

I had a gossip role in an LC game once, Sandman, and that role was a "get some info maybe true maybe false" type of thing, and I could add to it, iirc. There were three items to go into the post. This was only one. So I think it is the Speakers opinion. If it was more than one, I might think it was a true/false kind of thing. But with only one item in the post, I doubt it.

Linki @aapje~ A) I had forgotten TH said that about how the civvie recruiters are bad. B) quit whining, lol. Rome wasn't built in a day, so make more bricks In srsness, sometimes if I think the quote in context is important, I will put the link in the post, but i don't bother with linkbacks.

Sorsha wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:I've moved my vote to Turnip Head per Serenity's request.

Do you think TH is actually deserving of a lynch? What makes you so confident to follow the speaker?

Same question for tinybubbles. Is it normal for her to post without explanation? I haven't played with her before.

She is new to me as well. And people seem to think the Speaker has info, and I don't see how that would be the case. Gossips usually don't, or if they do it is flawed.

Someone mentioned the whole thing about the other gossips post today, about looking north. I thought that was a Lost reference. It's on the Eko stick, it's a Biblical quote. I kinda skimmed at work today, but need to actually read.

Linki, that sounds like a potential silencing.

Actually, resurrections seem to be in the hands of two roles, the Deathmask Shaman & the Druidic Elder. Although other forms of rezz may be possible I am sure.

But perhaps, Golden, it might have been in the interests of the rest of us.

I was not aware of that momentum. Perhaps you should seek replacement.

Golden wrote:

S~V~S wrote:Is it really? Everyone else that voiced an opinion on you & Epi seemed to think it was civ on civ. You unilaterally decided that you & he could not coexist, although no one else felt that way, and basically then bragged that YOU had solicited his death when he was NKed.

I have never seen this Golden. I played the very first game you played, and I was one of the people who watched, and understood, yur King Arthur sacrifice. But i have NO idea who is playing this game. None.

I've never played a game in which 90% of people started the game neutral. Every other game I've played has very defined sides. I've never even played a game like the Flash which is Factional. This is literally the first game I've played that is not a normal bad vs civ game of mafia. I have a very strong civ meta when I'm civ, and set out to replicate it when I am bad. But what am I supposed to do when I'm one in a sea of neutrals, and hardly anyone is yet civ?

From my perspective, the best approach in these circumstances is taking out people who I think are least likely to be civ, since I think I'm more likely to end up civ, and also people who I think are least likely to end up on the same team as me.

I'm not sure why this does not make sense, or how many times I would need to explain it to make it make sense. I am not a civ. Nor am I baddie feeling the need to try and be a civ. Nor am I, like in BoB, someone who will eternally be independent, knowing that all I need to do to win is to survive.

In this game, what I need to do is increase the odds of my team winning, even though I don't yet know which team that is. I'm finding my own feet in trying to figure out how to achieve that.

Do you understand it?

Can we talk about Epignosis? You unilaterally decided that he was bad, iirc NO ONE voted for him but you. It is very plausible that it was not your fault that the baddies killed him.

But then you came in & basically bragged that you solicited his death. No one thought he was bad but you. Very seriously. But you didn't care,did you? If i had done this, I would have had 20 votes already, lol.

I have reacted exactly to Epi as you did in this game when bad, then turned around and killed him & WIFOMed my way out of it. But this:

Golden wrote:I was not directly responsible for killing epi. I was intentionally baiting people into setting me up, though. I suspected that if I made enough of my intention to kill epi, someone else would do it.

I am very sad to see Typhoony die already, I agree with SVS it's a lame kill hope you get a rezz, typh.

I honestly don't know whether to take you at face value or not. It's almost like someone has hacked into Goldens account.

Linki @ Golden, I still think you are missing the point, but OK. Thank you for at least mentioning Epi in that post.

Linki @ Gman, you're wrong. It isn't garbage, when a person plays one game a year, killing them on night one, for people who know him, is rude. I doubt most of the people on MPs list would have killed him on night one. Not dissimilar to not lynching nubs on day one.

Ebwop *Almost everyone else (i have not checked if it was everyone else)

Is it really? Everyone else that voiced an opinion on you & Epi seemed to think it was civ on civ. You unilaterally decided that you & he could not coexist, although no one else felt that way, and basically then bragged that YOU had solicited his death when he was NKed.

I have never seen this Golden. I played the very first game you played, and I was one of the people who watched, and understood, yur King Arthur sacrifice. But i have NO idea who is playing this game. None.

@Rico, I think it depends on the person holding the role more than the role itself. But as I said, I would expect that any rezz would wait for confirmed. I would rather bring back a strong player who i thought was not bad to a low poster, regardless of clan. But most of all I would prefer a recruited civ; again, regardless of assigned clan. I think we judge people as individuals, not by their clan. So I think Typh was not bad, so i think the fact that he was a Sorcerer is not important (this all feels liek a metaphor for racism, lol)

And when you ask a question, you cannot always expect that people will only answer as you wish; they will interpret your question their way.