The Syndicate

Andhave you voted for Timmer? How long have you had this knowledge?

No, I just looked, you made throwaway votes on someone who was in no danger of being lynched, and who you did not try very hard to get lynched.

So you had info that ostensibly says Timmer was lying,and you said nothing and did not act on it?

Not sure I believe this,Matt.

Sorry, 3.5 cycles.

SO you are saying you knew the Dagger was an item for some 4 game cycles?

Have you voted for Timmer on any of those days?

Matt F wrote:

Dom wrote:I think I can trust LoRab and think you are very wrong about her.
I do not trust Matt F because he clearly has no idea what he's talking about.
Timmer? I could see. I'm more inclined to think Bass or FS are bad.

Per the underline, I feel that means you are saying "Matt is good but is clueless." Is this correct? Because if you thought I was bad, there'd be no reason for you to say I have "no idea what he's talking about". If this is what you are saying, then you would be kind of right. I do feel that some of my suspicions must be correct. Must be. Just don't know which.

SVS - I wholeheartedly agree with your reason for sussing me (re: own the bone), but let's keep in mind that I've been trying to reserve myself after the embarrassing phase of MacD's policy lynch idea and lecture I received from Epig during Talking Heads. I took what they said to heart and am trying my best to be open minded. Even so, I've consistently voted or tried to get people to vote for MM, I just haven't typed out hundreds of posts as I usually do in a crazy craze.

I think it's possible you are correct on Lorab, but if Dom is really civ, then I would have to trust him on that score.

SVS - If you think I'm bad, what team do you have me pegged for? Though it is true she survived the second lynch against her when she was battlin' MacD, in the last minutes I voted for her and put her in a tie with MacD, and then we found out it was Mac who was lynched. W/o me putting her in a tie with MacD (as a matter of fact, I was trying to put her up two votes against Mac, unfortunately HBoy came in last minute and voted Mac), the town wouldn't have been sure that yes, once again, she survived a lynch against her. So you must think I'm on the Circle, right?

MM - Yeah that sucked. Regardless of me being wrong about his flip floppiness on Juliets, the fact still stands on her first and third lynch, he voted her after several, several others did, and didn't even vote the second time. Also, it still stands that he let the town know how improbable it was that Floyd and Luke would be on the same time considering they are RL friends. But consider this, when all is said and done, Luke and Floyd are two players in a Mafia game. What makes it more improbable that they are on a team then any other two player combination? I feel like Turnip was trying to stick up for Floyd here. I don't have the Floyd lynch poll (HOSTS - Where's the Floyd lynch poll???) but I don't think Turnip voted him that day.

I am not a person who spends alot of time worrying about what team someone was on unless their interactions with someone else are the specific reason taht I suspect them. When the thread reaches that point where people are having the who is what role discussion, my eyes pretty much glaze over. Plus I have seen too many people make fatal errors by assigning a role based on anything other than info. Like I saw that someone (Splints, maybe?)brought up that the only person Bass specifically mentioned trusting was me. Which I would expect Bass to do; I have a blind spot about Bass you could drive a truck through, and have actively defended him more than once when he was bad and I was not becasue of it. So Bass saying he trusted me would be a no brainer, buddying up to me would be a predictable move for Bass, regardless of affiliation. And it does not point to mine. Thinking it does is an assumption based on incomplete knowledge.

Now, with only one Cabal left, odds would be better that you would be Circle, yeah, if you were bad. But I have been on plenty of teams where the tying, or even lynching, vote came from a teammate. I have also been on a team where my teammate threw he HARD under the Greyhound on Day One. We spent a few days basically derailing the thread, pretty much eviscerating each other. So when he was lynched, I coasted the rest of the game. "Why would I" is pretty much an empty statement,imo. Sometimes casing the deciding vote for a teammate is unavoidable if you want to live to kill another day, so the situation when you voted for Juliets is not all that.

I was, however, unaware of the situation in Talking Heads you mention, so will go BOTD with you today, since your meta being SO different was the primary reason I suspected you. After this lynch I am going to give you a full reread.

@Lorab, what is your opinion of Splints? If you already said, I am sorry, but I missed it. What with the Juliets lynch taking days, and my biggest suspect, Mac, being NKed, I decided to just start over, and am not totally caught up to the last few days.

Also Timmer sounds EXACTLY like he did in Recruitment 3, so perhaps he did pick up a booby trapped item? Plus lying would have been easier,and smarter,if he were a baddie. And that "but it didn't start out as a knife story" would not be the cleverest of lies. So I am a bit waffled on that.

I am not totally grasping the TH suspicion; TH, could you tell me why you think people suspect you?

Hey Happy Thanksgiving American people:)

And thanks, non American people, for putting up with the expanded day for our sakes.

Gonna start readingback & catching up. I also got a new laptop this weekend, and am not used to the keyboard configuration. I see new & interesting Typos in my future

Dom wrote:SVS-- who are you looking at and why?


Nice to see I didn't die.

I was wondering who might have been NKed last night. The choice of you was...surprising, I guess. Unexpected.

I am looking at lorab, timmer & matt f. Cause I think they are bad

Matt becasue he is not really *feeling* the tinfoil. I think he's trying to find tinfoil acceptable to the crowd at large, and he just isn;t finding it. If civ Matt thinks MM is bad, then civ Matt doesn't just chew that bone, he OWNS that bone, regardless of anyone elses opinion. THIS Matt lets go too easily, IMO, and cares too much what others think.

Timmer becasue I think he got stuck in a bad place, but you don't pick up a dagger and think, "Hrm, maybe if i stick this in Epi he will gain super powers!" And I am fairly sure than like no one thought he was bad, so why would Timmer stick him with a mysterious found object if he was not bad? He had sparse thread, but was active enough to find objects and use them on people. He showed up to defend, but then ... not much.

And no one is better than Lorab at dancing on the head of a needle. But dance seems to be all she has done this game. I stood between her and Mac to some extent becasue I STRONGLY felt (and still do) that he was malevolent, but she has given me neither a warm nor a fuzzy since then, and reading back, she didn't give me any non-mac related warm fuzzies before that, either.

Plus thread specifics i don't have time to loook up before work. Yay for 3 day thread

Who you looking at Dom? What do you think of Lorab, Timmer & Matt F?

Revoted D, and A becasue it's first, lol.

Sorry Wilgy, iywg. I don't know what I think of that; that does not seem to be a role that would be a good one to use for the Seemer. It would be too easy to dispute, although since he has not been off the poll

My initial read of him asking to be killed was Noble Civvie, but I talked myself out of that as manipulative baddie made more sense in context.

The poll question says choose two, but you may pick only one option. Going with D~ it corresponds to 4, ...*BOOM* LOST

i am such a dork, lol.

So let me get this straight; Splints is upset with Dom for not suspecting her earlier?

Wow, accused & replied in Linki

fingersplints wrote:I really don't get what is that many worthy. Wilgy is already getting lynched. It seems unnecessary to track down and read entire games at this point.

I think Dom likes multi in general.

Although i would also like to hear why so

I tend to be a person who never thinks of the self target scenario, since I don't particularly like to self target. But having read back over you, and your rather whimisically endearing & cute but fairly meaningless voting strategy, I am thinking the "self targetting baddie" theory makes more sense. If your team was falling apart and you had a night deflection (perhaps still that crystal) the cred might be more valuable than the missed kill. It makes a lot more sense to me that you would self target as a baddie than that you would try to draw an NK in a game where civs have to be alive to win.

And when I think about it, Witherdeath still got in a kill since night restarted.

Wilgy, let me ask you~ when you asked to be NKed, did you know you would not die? Trying to draw the kill? Which the baddies, two of whom were nubs and the third of whom was on vacation, and the fourth of whom was ... maybe not playing, maybe not thinking, maybe something else, and the nubs said , "Wow, that seems like a good idea! He asked to be killed, let's do it!" ?

My initial thought was that you were trying to draw the NK becasue you knew you would not die (something to do with that broken crystal that restarted night, perhaps) so you were saving some other poor soul from death. Being Noble, you know. The main problem I have had with this is that they actually did it, lol. But unless that fourth baddie was afk this does not work, when I think about it. Because when I look at the people who I think could possibly be bad, I don't think any of them would have taken that super obvious, shiny hook dangly bait.

I tend to be a person who never thinks of the self target scenario, since I don't particularly like to self target. But having read back over you, and your rather whimisically endearing & cute but fairly meaningless voting strategy, I am thinking the "self targetting baddie" theory makes more sense. If your team was falling apart and you had a night deflection (perhaps still that crystal) the cred might be more valuable than the missed kill. It makes a lot more sense to me that you would self target as a baddie than that you would try to draw an NK in a game where civs have to be alive to win.

You set a benchmark to my mind for your civvie game in Recruitement IV, and this is not even in the same universe,

I should be around tonight, but I am gonna drop a vote on you now.

*wilgy*

I believe Hammy to have been good. Mac on the other hand, not so much. I read back on him at one point and gave him some BOTD. But then I recalled those words of Wisdom from Forrest Gump about life being like that box of chocolates~ I think that sometimes you pick up a chocolate and bite into it, and you expect it to be a yummy caramel, or a chocolate cream, and it is!!

But sometimes you bite into it, and beneath the luscious chocolatey exterior it is actually a huge chunk of smirking bullshit trying to trick you into thinking it is a yummy chocolate.

That is kinda how I feel about Mac.

i came to similar conclusions re Typhoony. And plan to give Wilgy a reread. While getting the last Witherdeath would be awesome, it would be nice to try and decide who we think is Decay before we hand them Witherdeaths kill. So prioritizing Witherdeath with an eye to Decay is the best plan imo.

And i think the Night Post was pretty clear about the Pixie.

Linki, yeah. That whole *KILL ME* thing is what has been making me think Wilgy might be civ, in conjunction with the crystal shattering & night starting over. But presumably a Decay member could have done a similar thing.

Tranq wrote:Feral Pixie.

Sorsha wrote:Yay! Great result! Looking forward to Tranq having to put a little more work into the game now too

Uh.

S~V~S wrote:I want to reread Typhoony today. His behavior was very unexpected to me; even if he had not been killed by Witherdeath, I didn't think he was Juliets teammate; I have never ever seen Typh defend a teammate; I think I am more interested in what he did not comment about than what he did during the whole Juliets thing. I also need to reread Timmer & the whole "confession" thing.

Typhoony pretty heavily defended a baddie teammate aapje in rabbit's Sword of Truth game. Ofcourse the case on aapje was absolute bullshit, involving fake infoclaims etc, but yeah. I don't think he was a member of the Cabal. Actually, going through his posts based on the assumption he was Circle of Decay might be a good starting point to lynching one of them.

If I recall correctly. he had already been recruited by me when aapje got dumped on. Typh was a civvie at that point, and oddly I was helping him work hard to save aapje since his death would make the other bad group too powerful. So let's split this on 50/50 nub Tranq

Just walked in the door. Not much catching up to do, I see.

Aw smiley fail

Just a word to the wise

MacDougall wrote:

MacDougall wrote:

LoRab wrote: It's so sweet that you think that there are definitive forumulae as to how baddies act. While I agree that Dr W is bad, it's not for the same reasons. But, go along.

... the part where you sarcastically say it's sweet that I think there are definitive formulae, as though that's not actually true. There are repeat behaviours scum exhibit all the time, do you agree? Ignoring scum teammates or over focusing on them to the detriment of sense and reason. Late game ISOs exhibiting a lack of actual scum hunting effort in a voluminous ISO. There are dozens of behaviours scum players largely exhibit. Talented scum players know them and get around them.

LoRab can you address this. Do you genuinely believe there aren't?

I tend to believe that your position is an over simplification, and that there is no definitive formula. In games like they have at most other sites, the setups are more formulaic~ this limits the options baddies have as well as their strategies. Our all role madness games with varying levels of secrecy, resurrections, manipulations, secret roles & recruitment possibilities that we build into our games make the options richer & more varied. We are spoiled by sophisticated set ups and expect it of our hosts. I have been playing for over 6 years now and I see things from baddies I have never seen before in most games. And when she played more, Lorab was often the one to do those things.

I would not condescend to her if I were you. Just a word to the wise ;

Bye Floyd, hope it works out for you, and we hope to see you back after it does

I could see someone giving up in despair after his team was decimated this way, and I could see the last person potentially being someone low key. Or it could just be that Floyd was overwhelmed, even with an active teammate. His role looks fairly complicated & time consuming for a new player.

I want to reread Typhoony today. His behavior was very unexpected to me; even if he had not been killed by Witherdeath, I didn't think he was Juliets teammate; I have never ever seen Typh defend a teammate; I think I am more interested in what he did not comment about than what he did during the whole Juliets thing. I also need to reread Timmer & the whole "confession" thing.

I am going to vote Pixie.

Turnip Head wrote:

S~V~S wrote:Since I am not convinced by the case on Wilgy and do not think MM is a baddie, I will move my vote to Floyd for now as i find him more suspect than either Wilgy or MM, and he wants out anyhow

Any thoughts on splintsy or Bass? You say you're voting for Floyd because you don't like the cases on Wilgy or MM (and because he wants out lol)... what about the other players being discussed with votes?

At the time I voted, votes were starting to coalesce. All three of the people I mentioned had 2 votes at that time, everyone else had one. I also said I like the case on him better, not just that he wanted out. I think Bass is very uninvolved, which makes him MUCH more likely to be civ in my view. I also know for a RL fact that Splints has not had a lot of online time recently, and it is my opinion, in general, that she butters people up more when she is bad, which I am not seeing here.

Since I am not convinced by the case on Wilgy and do not think MM is a baddie, I will move my vote to Floyd for now as i find him more suspect than either Wilgy or MM, and he wants out anyhow

LoRab wrote:

Sorsha wrote:

LoRab wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:Tell me more about your suspicion of sig, Lorab. Does the fact that he's dead make you suspect him more?

It actually doesn't change my suspicion of him at all.

Did you have a particular team you think he was on?

I still think typh was bad, what do you think about him?

I originally thought circle but they killed him. Unless that was a redirect or something. Or a mastermind plan so he wasnt revealed. Or he was either death and the slip was coincidence or based on the other teams thinking or Indy and the slip was coincidence. I don't think he was civ. I could have been wrong but that's my thought.

I think typh was a bad Indy. I wasn't getting a team feel for him, but I wasn't really getting a civ feel either.

Witherdeath killed him, Lorab. Right?

Golden wrote:I'm pretty sure it wasn't Typh, I have him in another role.

I'd be pretty happy voting splints with you. She reminds me a lot of how she played in Bullets over Broadway, when she was bad. I also think she has been implying she was responsible for that beacon, which even though it doesn't seem to have killed anyone seems like it could have.

I understand sorsha's point about us crystallising around one person, but there are a few candidates on the table today that I could genuinely see being bad, and I don't necessarily think it is unhelpful to our reads of people that there is uncertainty about the way the lynch is going to go right now.

Wow I quoted the wrong post, I meant to quote this one ∆∆

That's what happens when I mafia pre coffee.

Golden wrote:

Turnip Head wrote:In what ways does splintsy remind you of BoB?

In that game I could pin nothing on her... I felt like there was nothing to point to her alignment. She stayed so far under the radar, she didn't really engage a lot. Her posting frequency was about the same as in this game. In the end, we only really got to lynch her through process of elimination, because it was virtually impossible to build a case any other way.

Sometimes I think that the game can be In a place where you kind of have to start over. I think we are kind of in that place now, having spent so long on one person.

So maybe shotgun voting as we did at the start of the day helps by getting conversation going.

I strongly disagree with you about MM, Hammy, not so sure about Typhoony. I have known Typh for years, and been bad with him many times; I am not even sure HOW many. I think I read him well. I have never seen him aggressively defend a bad teammate EVER. To me his tone and feel were very civ. He buddies more when he is bad, and did not do it here. They hang together in IRC a lot, so he would have known her to be away. So I am not sure any of that speaks to his affiliation.

While I understand the desire to compare another persons gameplay to ones own, it is not generally a valid comparison. You are different people. We have a pair of twin brothers that are part of our community and who both play occasionally, and their games are amazingly different.

On short acquaintance with you, i think comparing your game and MMs game are like comparing a Lamborghini and a bottle nose dolphin. While both excellent, they are nothing alike. We are all rather individualists here as compared to the Mafia community at large, and MM is perhaps even more an individualist than most.

Link I @floyd can you please pm the host with that rather than discussing it with the thread? Thanks

Bass IS Clever

Bye Faraday.

That was odd. I too wondered about the "beacon of light" when LC posted it, so if it is something from the night before, not sure why it took so long to happen?

In any case, if anyone else was dead, i think the host would have said so

If we are gonna do the instavote thing, Idisagree with Matt to the point that I am going to vote for him.

*Matt F*

Linki~ there are those pulse emmitters that Canuck scattered around. I ran into one, but did not think touching it was a good idea. It was a mechanical device with a probe stuck deep into the ground. That's all I remember about it.

I miss Montana, voting West

MacDougall wrote:Bullzeye missed this entire phase I think?

This was his vote post from yesterday, 11/17 4:35 (US Eastern time)

Bullzeye wrote:Sorry for not being around, like, at all lately... That probably isn't going to change for a while unfortunately *Voting Juliets* because at this point it just seems like the thing to do! She's avoided the lynch twice when she seemingly shouldn't have so hopefully it's third time lucky here.

Bye Jules, sorry you were bad

The game will be less gracious by your absence.

Dom wrote:Mac, I was unaware that it couldn't be considered suspicious to consistently rotate your suspicion list like a rotisserie chicken.

All right, I am not 100% sure I agree with you here re Mac anymore, since he was the first person I started rereading, but this post made me actually laugh out loud for realsies (at work, not a good thing)

Just thought you might want to know

Well, although I am conflicted on her, I think getting this situation cleared up is in our best interests.

So going to vote Juliets. I plan to reread some people tonight after work.

I think it is fairly obvious that he had an object? Maybe that crystal thing reflected the kill back, which would mean Typh was bad?

In any case, bye Typh ripiywg and all that.

And yeah, re the last lynch. I know when I voted Mac had only one or two votes, two or others had three I think (one was Luke, don't recall the other, maybe Timmer?), Juliets may have had more. I was surprised when more people piled on him like that. I was also surprised by Golden switching votes midstream, doing basically what he is suspecting Juliets for.

Yeah, it was like a ride at an amusement park.

It was fun n a traditional WHEEEE kind of way

I thought I7 was fun.

DrWilgy wrote:Someone kill me

MacDougall wrote:

S~V~S wrote:I was kind of surprised that mac took all of those votes. I think he was rather surprised at the end, though, yeah. I really do think he has been intentionally trying to be a distraction, especially so early in the game.

I am not sure what the civs would gain from such distractionary tactics, so i am having problems viewing him as benign.

That's not what I am doing at all.

But surely you can see how it might look that way, can't you?

I was kind of surprised that mac took all of those votes. I think he was rather surprised at the end, though, yeah. I really do think he has been intentionally trying to be a distraction, especially so early in the game.

I am not sure what the civs would gain from such distractionary tactics, so i am having problems viewing him as benign.

I love all of them except summer, too hot

Going with fall.

Golden wrote:No, I'm voting juliets because I think she is bad. I have said nothing about her waffling on her votes.

I also voted juliets yesterday. I'm not waffling on that suspicion. My suspicion on timmer has never meant I felt any better about juliet, I just prioritised timmer because, as I mentioned, if he was bad I felt his lynch was urgent. If it wasn't for that, I wouldn't have even raised timmer today. I just would have bided my time over it, and voted juliets.

this is pretty much exactly what you did with Canuck, too. I had forgotten that.

Golden wrote:He convinced me.

So ... you are voting Juliets for waffling on her votes (which is something civ Juliets does pretty much always) by waffling on YOUR own vote, which is something you do very seldom?

I will reiteerate

I am missing what others are seeing about Juliets, tbh. Having read up on Floyd, I am not sure what point a baddie would be making by pretending not to know what NK meant, so also not voting Floyd.

I do think Mac is intentionally trying to be a distraction, which is not supatown to my mind. So voting Mac

Golden wrote:Yeah, I'm not in fact info dumping. I've said what 'info' I have, it was all above board to share. It isn't code for 'I have info that timmer is definitely bad'.

But I don't think I do need to put a lot more into the case. Timmer has barely posted anything until I called him out for a vote, and so you can't much build a case on it. Timmer has struggled to contribute recently with real life pressures, but I think there is a big difference between his civ and baddie contributions, not in terms of frequency but in terms of content. He has been pretty good at trying to get something in there. Timmer's posts really didn't have a lot of content this time.

Plus, I believe timmer to be lying about having no items. That was the point at which he guaranteed my vote, because there is no way that is true.

This is good to know becasue people, like Matt F, seem to be voting based on your "sureness" which tends to be a code for "I think he has info".

I know the letter of the rules say one thing, but i was under the impression that we are lynching based on what happens in the thread, not the map. While I agree that Timmers responses to you sound sketchy, i also think he was put into a postion that is fairly indefensible.

And like I said, you always sound sure.

Matt F wrote:I feel like voting MM again but I don't think that'll gain any traction (prolly cuz I haven't laid out a case).

Floyd not knowing what "NK" is seems false.

Golden seems pretty sure on Timmer 2.0, though.

Timmer

You and I are very much on different pages. I need more than circumstantial, and if Golden IS in fact info dumping (and he denies it) then he needs to work harder on his case. Golden is always sure.

I have not seen anything alarming about MM. I think I got a fairly good grasp on his bad game in Recruitment, and I am not seeing that MM here.

I won't be voting for Timmer. While i can see some of the points others have made on Juliets, I am not personally feeling that as much, and was kind of weirded out by TH repeatedly asking where she was. I am going to reread the points on Floyd.

Golden wrote:

timmer wrote:Golden you are trying to decide if it is fair to extrapolate? You already HAVE extrapolated, and are voting me and causing others to vote me as well even though you admit to thinking juliets is bad which I agree with you on. But now that you have sat this in motion you sure are hedging your statements fast and making sure people know you aren't sure. This is blatant. and in a previous post you suggested I need to die urgently. Why?

Because I believe that, as the sole survivor of a square with two other people, you probably now hold items that are bad news in the hands of a baddie.

"Now that I have set this in motion I am hedging my statements"

I've been very clear all along about what things I am sure about and what things I am not. Is your preference that I don't do this? Don't you think it's better that the civilians are told exactly where my thought processes are at? I don't think it does you or the town any favours for me to pretend or lie about exactly why I think you might be bad, better that I be honest.

Has it occurred to you that a baddie may have been traveling parallel to them?

I am sorry, but this is just too speculative for me. I will reread BWT, and Timmer 2.0 but it could be other things, too.

Golden wrote:I had to check that it was within the rules.

I know that these three people shared a square yesterday. Epi, sig, timmer.

Thats why I am voting to lynch timmer.

Rule #5~

5.You may not discuss in-thread who you have had BTSC with, or discuss openly or in detail what was said in BTSC.

This is not exactly the letter of the law, from what you say *YOU* did not have BTSC with them, but it does violate the spirit of the law, imo. While I look forward to Timmers explanation, it makes me kinda sad he should have to provide one based on this kind of thing.

Golden wrote:And I would beseech everyone else to join me, beseech beseech!

I think he was responsible for killing epi too, btw. Villain

Can you possibly tell us how/why?

Good. Because i don't see how someone could find Juliets to be otherwise, not even you

As i said, I tend to overcompensate for Juliets actual person and think she is bad most games, So my opinion is for shit.

you don't find her to be a gracious lady?

LOL~ you don't know her as long, perhaps. The game I lynched her for being too nice was at Hedville, and we have not had games there for years.

She is such a gracious lady that she tends to come across as always good, which is perhaps why I tend to suspect her for the most part.

My opinion of Juliets is pointless, it's why i tend not to weigh in on her. I always think she is bad. I am the person who lynched her for being too nice, lol. I think she has been waffly and evasive. But I also think some people were unfairly aggressive with her. TH come to mind with his constant "Where is Juliets " posts even though people who are friends with juliets outside of mafia told him she was afk.

So to answer your question, while I would not be incredibly surprised were Juliets to flip bad, I don't particularly think she is.

It's a tactic; one i disagree with. But it has a strategic goal which makes it a tactic.

Turnip Head wrote:Rest in peace Canuck

Why are you making it sound like she was a civvie? She had booby traps that she scattered about the map. I ran into one, and chose not to set it off. The description I got of it sounded pretty scary, tbh.

I would have liked it better if she were a full fledged baddie, but I am OK with that role being gone.

Turnip Head wrote:Where is juliets

Typh said she was not on irc either, and she is always there. So she is probably somewhere she can't get online. I am sure she is OK