The Syndicate

Golden wrote:DF could have been the last member of his team, I don't think the phantom MUST be alive, but they could still be alive. I wonder if the phantom is SVS and this whole day was a big wifom gambit. I don't understand why she was so sure that df would not have killed her. I'd be fairly willing to consider an SVS lynch tomorrow.

Sloonei wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Spacedaisy wrote:Because I was taking my fiancé out for dinner for his birthday.

It was really delicious.

wait a minute...

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Sloonei wrote:I was silenced if that wasn't obvious. Missed the vote because work ran a little longer than I was anticipating. I would not have made a difference.
I think Golden might be bad.

I am starting to get a similar impression.

I really hoped he would have made a move to lynch me there at the end.

fingersplints wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

fingersplints wrote:Fell asleep and almost missed the poll.
voting Neverwhere
MM's has some interesting points on JJJ but I am not sure I buy it.

Why Neverwhere?

What points of MM's did you find interesting, and why aren't you sure you buy it?

I voted Neverwhere for the posts previously made about inactivity. She posted, and it doesn't seem we are supposed to be getting any more of an explanation. So no point in keep waiting around, I'd rather lynch her who I have been more suspicious of her then someone who was just introduced and I haven't gotten to investigate myself since I just woke up and will be immediately returning back to bed.

I think the points about you voting off after going after people pretty reasonable, but that could have civvie motives. I don't buy that you are suspicious for the Epi kill. It seems too obvious.

Golden wrote:

Spacedaisy wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I voted for Neverwhere. This thread is dead, maybe someone will care.

I care. I would like to lynch MM, but if the group feels Neverwhere is our best move, I am willing to go along. Quite frankly MM's actions continue to look like abaddie trying too hard to pull the puppet strings and I fail to see why no one else feels as strongly about him as I do. I don't really have any feelings about neverwhere so if those I believe to be civ have strong opinions about needing to lynch her I am willing to listen to that.

Do you have long enough to hold out and see what sloonei does? He is silenced but I assume can still vote.

There is still ninja and SVS after that. We only have an hour. If we can wait and see what others think it will be ideal.

Otherwise I'll go along with neverwhere

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I voted for Neverwhere. This thread is dead, maybe someone will care.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Oh look, Phantom of the Opera is back in action.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Hedgeowl ISO for the win!!!!! (with lots of exclamations!) I'm just looking at interactions with/about Long Con and Black Rock.

Hedgeowl originally offers a no read of Long Con in response to Golden's question, with the reasoning that she can never tell very well with him. She also admitted to being sympathetic to LC for reasons that don't pertain to the game. This is very early in the game, so it's hard to tell if this indicates a baddie or civilian response. She did talk about SVS more in this post than LC, though Hedgeowl would later go on to vote for Long Con.

Spoiler: show

Hedgeowl wrote:

Golden wrote:Hedgeowl - if several people ended up voting for LC or SVS today, would you consider that there seemed to be good reasons for that, or are you saying that you find the reasons to suspect LC and SVS unconvincing?

Oh I am not saying that. Did I say that? I was commenting on the earlier discussion about newbies, which SVS and LC are not. I am sympathetic to LC because of Epi's accusation around the word "interesting" but that's more because I am someone who overuses this word in life. I do find SVS' defense interesting (!) however. I would not say I am ready to vote based on any of this yet though. Mostly, I think there been a lot of huffing and puffing and MP's redonkulous rainbow list aside ( ), not much noteworthy in 5 pages that took me too long to read, so I agree with Epi there. I will say so far he reads like civ Epi to me, and I can never tell very well with LC.

what are ISOs that everyone is mentioning? I assume not In Search Of...

Still no read of LC here, and Hedgeowl states that Epignosis's comments about SVS are noteworthy (she likes them?).

Spoiler: show

Hedgeowl wrote:

Sloonei wrote:I would add to Turnip's post that in Hedgeowl's third post, she seems to state that MP's rainbow list is something worth taking note of, but all she goes on to say is that it made her laugh.

That was a bit of tongue and cheek humor. I did not think his rainbow list (with only 2 colors!) was super valuable to me at the time, but I thought it was funny of him to try. I am so rarely serious in my posts, so it sometimes causes confusion. I play mafia for the lulz and as a break from my crazy wonderful two year old when he is sleeping, so I am not as serious as the serious players, but I do enjoy the game.

I also don't want anyone to feel as if I am insulting your rainbow lists. They are new to me and I am just getting used to them, but have no issues with those who use them, as you know, an actual rainbow. I haven't decided how I feel about Grainbows yet though.

Golden wrote:Yes, TH, that's exactly what I was trying to do. I felt like Hedgeowl's statement was definitely something that could be referred back to later to defend LC or SVS, and I didn't want to allow it to be used that way. I could definitely see a scenario where Hedgeowl is in a team with LC or SVS and was hoping to have some else run with her comment and imply that LC or SVS were being bandwagoned.

Also, her response question 'Did I say that?' - was a noteworthy response to me.

Ah, my bandwagon comment was in no way related to SVS or LC. They are both so slippery when bad that I often find I suspect them in every game just because, but struggle to really find a concrete reason beyond gut. This game so far, I am finding Epi's comments noteworthy regarding SVS, but also keeping in mind this dynamic between the two is not new. As for LC I still don't know, but I have 3 more pages to read.

Neverwhere wrote:I'm with Turnip Head on this one. I got so caught up focusing on the whole Epi - Lc - SVS talk I forgot about the posts Hedgeowl had made. They read really scummy to me too. A lot of mafia excuse speak. If Hedge is bad, it seems kind of sloppy of her....

At this point she's pinging me the most for a day 1 vote.

I am reading Gumshoe as civvie for now.

How is it sloppy of me? What exactly did I say that you find to be mafia excuse speak? That I dont want to target newbies? Also, I can't decide if I am offended or not if it is sloppy mafia playing.

Turnip Head wrote:

Golden wrote:Yes, TH, that's exactly what I was trying to do. I felt like Hedgeowl's statement was definitely something that could be referred back to later to defend LC or SVS, and I didn't want to allow it to be used that way. I could definitely see a scenario where Hedgeowl is in a team with LC or SVS and was hoping to have some else run with her comment and imply that LC or SVS were being bandwagoned.

It just seems so out of place in that post. And I see what you're saying, she could refer back to that remark to preemptively counter any bandwagons she doesn't like. It's like that sentence came from the future and landed in Hedgeowl's post.

TH, you have seriously played mafia with me enough to know that I am very wary of bandwagons or what I perceive to be bandwagons and have used my votes before to actively save people I think are civvies. I dont see how that is any different for me this game.

Hedgeowl comments on Cobalt's vote, calling it unsurprising. This is Hedgeowl's first mention of Cobalt, and had not interacted with him before. Keep this in mind.

Spoiler: show

Hedgeowl wrote:Alright, I just finished catching up and am tired. I am really uncertain as to my suspicions currently, but would like to look back at those that jumped on board other people's suspicions and voted as a result. I am not super surprised at Cobalt's vote, but dont know how serious to take it given his earlier comments. MM as well need to reread. I will be interested in seeing how others vote an will plan to vote tomorrow evening hopefully.

Also, I find myself identifying with TGG description of playstyle as well. Rings true for me too.

Night y'all.

Hedgeowl places her vote on Day 1 in the final minutes.

Spoiler: show

Hedgeowl wrote:Ugh, I am like 5 pages behind, but I don't want SvS to go down on a self vote. Voting LC because between him and Cobalt I feel more suspicious of him, but very weak still.

Linki no idea what is going on in the vote lol.

This vote looks good at first, because it was a vote on LC to tie him with SVS for the lead (I think). But not long after, LC swoops in to put SVS ahead. Sure LC may have voted for self-preservation, but looking at Hedgeowl's vote, I don't think it's as sincere as it seems. I understand backing off of SVS, but Hedgeowl had offered no suspicion of LC to this point. She offered no read of him at one point, and sympathized with him in another post. She hadn't stated a suspicion of Cobalt either, but at from her posts, I believe she should have been more prone to vote Cobalt.

This move may have a calculated one to give Hedgeowl a good look.



Hedgeowl comments on Day 2 that she doesn't like Cobalt's antics, but doesn't seem to want to touch the Cobalt-LC relationship.

Spoiler: show

Hedgeowl wrote:I don't like the taunting Cobalt trying to get us to vote him now. Claiming that ability after someone guessed it seems like what you did I a game LC when Juliets said you were indy and you weren't.

I am almost inclined to leave the LC-Cobalt thing for another day, but there have been so many questions raised between these two. I still have 4-5 pages to read before the last lynch,

Day4, Hedgeowl states she is still catching up, and still plans to read about the LC-Cobalt relationship. She includes that she is finding LC increasingly less suspicious as she goes.

Spoiler: show

Hedgeowl wrote:Ok, still several pages to go before I am fully caught up. Honestly sloonei those lyrics are not subtle in the least. Maybe someone is super ballsy and confidant in their gut reads, but it seems extreme to write a whole song about Nutella if you don't really think she's bad. Either way very fun song writing there! I def don't think we should take the word of night post though, because there is no guarantee they are civ I would assume. I do however think it worthwhile to examine Nutellas posts, votes etc. just in case. No reason we shouldn't all get some scrutiny.

I also need to do some rereads of LC-Cobalt to get a better handle on that currently. I am still suspicious of LC, but less so the more I get caught up.

fuckin wifi signal..posting now I hope.

The very next day, Hedgeowl reads LC as a frustrated civ, but a civilian nonetheless.

Spoiler: show

Hedgeowl wrote:

Neverwhere wrote:

FZ. wrote:Scotty, no, I'm not sure that corruption means the player will change to bad, but I want to be sure about this, because if any of us were bad and could recruit or something of the sort, we'd take the most trusted player in the game. Right now, that's obviously Sloonei. So unless someone saved him, or he has a power to survive a NK on his own, I would be quite worried.

As for Golden voting Epi, that's a very weird choice, and I think we should think about why it's there. I doubt he was forced to do it, because Epig was not a high candidate for a lynch, so why waste it on him. So it seems he voted Epi for a good reason, at least to him.

Oh, and Neverwhere just reminded me about Splints.
Splints, of course civvies hesitate, but I think your choices for baddies are too easy. I think Bubbles is not bad, and based on his recent posts, I don't see Bass as bad either. I could be wrong of course, but it seems as if you chose the easy targets.

Very good point. Also...like I said before. Cobalt out of nowhere says he's 100% sure of Epi being bad and Golden suddenly just votes for him also.

I was also curious about this and thought it must have been something I missed. I've been rereading LC's posts, which have a lot of exchange with Golden, so surprised to see the Epi vote. I am still finishing them, but more and more LC is reading as frustrated civ to me. I need to read more about others thoughts on his connections to Tiny, and sig's posts in light of his lynch. I never thought the he killed Epi theory as a valid one. As BR commented I believe, it just doesn't seem like LC's style.

But 20 minutes later, Hedgeowl backtracks and votes LC. LC was lynched this day, but he held a 10-6 lead over G-Man at the time of her vote. That's not insurmountable, but still a wide margin, giving her vote less credit.

Spoiler: show

Hedgeowl wrote:Ok, I am making a mess of those spoiler and quotes tags, so will have to get someone to explain it to me later. I went back and read the cases on sig and LC in light of sig's posts and it doesn't look good. I dont know sig as a player, so I cant tell if he would defend a teammate so often, but it's not how I usually like to play as a baddie. However, with such early suspicion of LC it may have forced the team to go on the defensive. I dislike that he isnt here to defend himself, but reading through his posts he did have quite a lot of opportunity this game. I agree with Epi and Sloonei's assessments and will vote LC.

Votes Long Con

LInki Gman are you trying to tempt me to vote for you?

Hedgeowl comments on BR. Not much of a comment, just says she doesn't believe she would defend LC being his spouse.

Spoiler: show

Hedgeowl wrote:Welcome JJJ and SVS! Glad to have you, even though I have been super absent this game. So far in catch-up I have only read this page, so my plan is to vote now since they are changeable and then continue to catch up this evening while also during other things.

I obviously need to catch-up more on the BR case because I just havent been present enough to understand it beyond that she defended LC early on. Of all the people to get caught in a defense of LC, I would think someone's spouse would be the one. If they had been on a team, I think it less likely she would have defended him honestly. Now, I also felt that he wouldn't be the kind of player to go after Epi on Day 1, but didn't mean I didn't vote for him with two mafia teams.

On Day 7, the day BR was lynched, Hedgeowl votes nutella, but does comment after the lynch about BR, and directs attention towards nutella.

Spoiler: show

Hedgeowl wrote:Corrupted, so this fits with the LC teammate theory since that's the team with 3. It wouldn't be crazy of them to recruit BR either. Well done, those who sniffed her out. I can take no credt having minimally participated in this lynch as it is. I am interested in the fact that nutella did not vote. JJJ, scotty, and others what do you think of nutella in light of BR's flip, is she the next place to look or are others still suspect.

Lol Cobalt, yeah no one thinks your LC's teammate now I think. But could there be more than one corrupted teammate...

This is Hedgeowl's most recent post, coming during Night 7. This is the part I find most suspicious. Hedgeowl said she was going out of town for 10 days, but look at the other parts of this scenario.

• - Black Rock is lynched Day 7, and Team Wildhorn missed the Night 8 kill.
  - Black Rock and Long Con have both been lynched, possibly disheartening a mafia team to have multiple excellent teammates go down.
  - Hedgeowl says she will be out of town and will have internet, but has not posted since then.

Spoiler: show

Hedgeowl wrote:

Scotty wrote:Grr I just did a whole analysis post about Hedgeowl and it got deleted. I'm too tired to do it again.
It's ok though, because here's the short gist of her:
-She has only 37 posts, which is quite minimal for someone still [actively] playing the game.
-but she has been constantly "catching up". I legit feel her frustration of continually having to comb through 10 pages every day for the past few gamedays, and how she's felt absent.
-She has voted not terribly so far. She did miss Day 2 vote, even though she was around and could have voted. I don't think it's that suspicious, since she picked it back up every day thereafter (except for the Tiny night). She missed a few night polls as well, so this also seems like a genuine busy-ness. Her vote off the G-man lynch felt justified with her self-proclaimed ideology of players bandwagoning only if they has a reason.
-I feel like she reads as a backdoor civ- she hasn't shared a lot of original suspicions, but also doesn't always go with the crowd on voting.

Hedge, I hope as the thread gets lighter that you come around more.
Can you give me 3 people you might suspect right now and maybe a little bit why?

I officially endorse your analysis, although that of course means diddlysquat. I am just too busy irl and at night so tired that it's no longer fun to catch up constantly, so eventually I give up and go to sleep. I am going on vacation for 10 days tomorrow in rural Wisconsin. I have been told we have internet, but will be with a ton of family. Granted my participation cant get much worse at this point. As for suspects, I still have nutella on my list, but saw JJJ say she defended herself well, so need to check that out. Otherwise, I havent taken the time to anayze the votes as I like to do, not that we have lynched several baddies, but thats where I like to start in my analsysis usually.

I think Hedgeowl could be a member of Team Wildhorn.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Golden wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Also, the attempt to nightkill Bass on Night 5 is confusing. I don't think that Team Wildhorn could kill on odd nights.

What confuses me more about Team Wildhorn's missed kills is that I believe that it seems to me that Jekyll & Hyde has still been targeting players.

Are you suggesting that you do not believe bubbles is jekyll? I've been trying to figure this one out for ages.

I do not. Well I will admit I could be wrong, but, for example, SVS has voted nijuu each of the last three days (including very early on today) which does line up with Jekyll and Hyde's role, and with the way things look, makes nijuu a likely target for J&H. I won't dismiss the TinyBubbles being Jekyll theory, because I understand that if it's true, someone else must be the real Sweeney Todd, and that is still a possibility. I just think that, regardless of my early theory of the LC/TB relationship, that TinyBubbles is a civilian. Also of note, Sweeney Todd gets one nightkill in the game. The fact that G-Man was not nightkilled before his lynch leads me to believe that Sweeney Todd is either an inactive player, or a relatively new player like TinyBubbles who may not feel comfortable pulling the trigger on a nightkill.

Golden wrote:I am very much liking the cases MM and Epi have brought on hedgeowl.

If I understand MM correctly, hedge could not be jekyll? Because jekyll is active?

In which case, it should also be possible to test if hedge is B & C by way of checking when she left and not been back since. (I tend to think the unknown force could be Mr Hyde? So I'm not assuming wildhorn missed a kill - but I could well be wrong about that, I understand why 'unknown force' might sound more like a civilian ninja or independent role).

All of the baddies' kills so far have had some obvious flavor to them. Thus, I am more inclined to believe that the kill of Scotty did not come from a baddie team, nor may have it even come from another player. It could even have been role-related on his part.

Golden wrote:I just read DF back, and I no longer think he could be on team webber. He was one of the first people to agree with my case on TGG, and was pretty consistent about it. Even before G-Man subbed in.

I also do not think he could be on team wildhorn with either FS or hedge, because those happen to have been two of his more consistent suspects. His voting for BR looks good too. I think he could be on team wildhorn, but I'd have him below splints and hedge on my radar, and I'm trying to figure out who is on team webber! Where are Webber and the Phantom hiding?

Not to discredit DF too much, but TGG left on weird terms, and may even had suggested to his teammates to throw him under the bus.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:I didn't feel super compelled by the case, but there were couple things that I saw. I'll admit that I did try to fit it all into my theory.

But this game has fallen into a rut, and I think you will have noticed it too, and I was just looking for something to spark discussion. Anything. I thought about looking at Team Webber, who has been more active, but I figured it would be easier to look at Team Wildhorn, and see how the active member(s) of Team Webber respond.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:I didn't feel super compelled by the case, but there were couple things that I saw. I'll admit that I did try to fit it all into my theory.

But this game has fallen into a rut, and I think you will have noticed it too, and I was just looking for something to spark discussion. Anything. I thought about looking at Team Webber, who has been more active, but I figured it would be easier to look at Team Wildhorn, and see how the active member(s) of Team Webber respond.

A few people joined your cause soon after you mounted the case. Who among them do you feel was the least sincere in doing so? If you're town (or even anti-town on a team other than Windhorn), then someone out there capitalized on you being wrong.

Pretty much everyone that came in and stated "Wowie, these cases are so compelling, I can't even decide who to vote for between splints and Hedgeowl!"

I was surprised to see nutella claim that she and Hedgeowl were on Team Wildhorn with certainty. I didn't know there was reason to believe fingersplints was on that team. And then nutella didn't even vote.

Spacedaisy, well you already pointed her comments out. She just hopped in the game, and that post was her only post in the last 30 hours.

I don't see any reason to suspect Golden. Or rather, I see plenty of reason not to suspect Golden, and I haven't bothered considering him as a mafia.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:One important thing I intentionally left out of my original theory of Team Wildhorn that no one caught: I did not include any players that replaced in later in the game. This would include you JJJ, Spacedaisy, and SVS, but you were silenced, SVS wasn't around all day, but then there is Spacedaisy, who stated that the cases were "pretty compelling". If there's a nightkill tonight, I'd bet it's coming from her.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Unless there's anything else you wish to talk about Golden, I don't plan on doing any more game-related stuff this night phase. I'll be gone all day tomorrow camping, so I'll just hold off until Sunday if I'm still alive and not silenced.

JJJ was right though. I forced some points on the Hedgeowl case, so I take full responsibility for her lynch. I was just hoping someone would come in and tell me it was bullshit. Nobody did. My apologies to Hedgeowl.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

Spacedaisy wrote:MM, you are incriminating me based on Night 8? But reading that looks like a failed NK, not a missing NK. So how does this incriminate me for replacing an inactive player?

To those who are my fellow civs, lynching me is a bad idea. I am a civ and you don't want to lynch my role.

MM tell me why you explained away your Hedge case by claiming you were hoping to see someone come in and debunk it? Yet you did vote for her, which does not imply to me that you didn't believe your own case. Your conflicting statements make me seriously question how sincerely you are baddie hunting.

I have not yet read JJJ's ISO cases because I've been working on wedding stuff. I fully intend to read them before the poll end though, to make as informed a decision as I can. In the meantime my vote is going to you Marshy boy. I don't trust you this game, at all.

The thread was dead, and I was trying to instigate discussion. I thought Hedgeowl was a decent lead, so I made a case on her. Some of the points I made were good, but some were a stretch (as Jay immediately pointed out).

You came into the thread and said you found the cases that Epignosis and I made very compelling. Considering you hadn't posted in over 24 hours, nor did you have anything else to say except that you trust Golden, how do I know you even read the cases?




I appreciate you coming into the game to help Dom out, but that itself doesn't make you a civilian. Also, I've explained again and again that the flavor just doesn't match a nightkill attempt by Team Wildhorn, and in fact, doesn't even indicate a nightkill at all.

Sorry, but I believe you are a victim of circumstance.

nutella wrote:

FZ. wrote: The two people that really caught my eye on day 1 were Nutella and Sig. They both seem like they're right in the middle of stuff, but are saying nothing. They feel like they are totally blending in and making others do the work for them. Anyone else noticed that?

I haven't been trying to blend in, but I will admit I do "make others do the work" to some extent because I'm not really the type to form big cases on my own, it's just not my style and I'm kinda too lazy/busy to put a lot of time into it. So I read the thread, assess others' suspicions and give my opinions on those, and give my opinions on any other players I've found fishy for whatever reason while reading. And often I don't really know what to think and my views flip and flop around, because in the end I don't have much of a clue who is bad. But I've tried to be as helpful as possible, keeping up with the thread and posting whenever I can, giving my input.
My strongest conviction right now is that Bass is bad. I really really think he is. He's my strongest suspicion, followed by LC at this point and Sig.

S~V~S wrote:Welcome Daisy
Bye Scotty~ I am surprised that both teams wanted you dead so badly.
All of those trivia questions are really hard.

I am voting for Ninja now. How she flips (and I will be surprised if she flips anything other than bad) will tell me how I feel about Faraday amongst others. Doinf otherwise would be putting the cart before the horse. Scottys death has led me to do some rethinking about a few people that I had pretty firmly in my mental "civvie file", but I want to reread a bit before I say much about any of that.

Golden wrote:

Spacedaisy wrote:I've been thing about going with this look for the wedding, what do you think?

Only if Alex dresses up like a marmot.