The Syndicate

Why are we even considering tony today?

Yeah I don’t see any way we can let the sloonei slot get to LYLO

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:53 pm Fair, do we have a solid list of who all is for the Sloonei shot and have any other names been suggested (other than me of course)?

I'm assuming this is just a PM to Epi?

And Mac

If sloonei flips mafia I’m going to both laugh at and mock everyone that fought me on killing them D1

And if they flip town I’m going to ignore it and defend the approach anyway.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:47 pm Someone explain secret vote or link me to it. I didn't see it in the rules or during my review.

Rule that was added by vote N1, adds a second TK that’s decided by secret vote. Secret votes are final once made.

Yeah wilgy playing now makes sloonei the obvious secret vote candidate imo

I now see your clarification

nutella wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:42 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:38 pm I’m going to pretend that fake derps don’t exist and accept wilgy as lock town.
Yeah I doubt that's a derp lol.... but I haven't played with wilgy in a while and he does do goofy things like that sometimes. I just don't feel it's likely in this case.

I mean it’s clearly a derp, only question is whether it’s fake or not.

It’s honestly kind of scummy but I’m pretending it’s an actual derp cause he said I was town and that makes me happy.

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:41 pm
nutella wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:39 pm Oooh a big Wilgy catch up post. Just started it but gonna say now that preemptively calling Radish scum and leaving it in the catch up post probably makes him town lol.
I mean it in now way does, it’s super easy for scum to fake, BUUUUUUT I’m doing the same thing so.

*in no way

nutella wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:39 pm Oooh a big Wilgy catch up post. Just started it but gonna say now that preemptively calling Radish scum and leaving it in the catch up post probably makes him town lol.

I mean it in now way does, it’s super easy for scum to fake, BUUUUUUT I’m doing the same thing so.

Jules, I’ve read your thing. I don’t really have anything to add, I just don’t want you to feel like I asked for it then ignored it.

I’m going to pretend that fake derps don’t exist and accept wilgy as lock town.

I see your response and I’ll read it when I can. Thanks

Hyena wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:18 pm I don't believe Speedchuck is mafia, and I'm saying this as the person who corrected him when he suggested the possibility that Nanook might struggle to find reasons to scumread people as scum. I'm the one that gave evidence (i.e. Nanook and I successfully lynching a cop D1 in G8 of MU Champs last year) for why this wasn't the case. If I didn't have that evidence though, and if I hadn't played with Nanook before, I don't think I would have seen Speedchuck's post as scummy. It's the way he delivered the post (if that makes any sense) that felt towny. It didn't feel, like, accusatory in a way where Speedchuck was going to just start pushing him just for that. He kinda just brought up the possibility and left it as just that -- a possibility.

Nanook, if you believe Speedchuck is scum, do you think Nutella is with him? Do you think any of Juliets, MP7, or Juliets is with him? If not, then what kind of team are you looking at right now? Radish, Speedchuck, + 1 of the inactives?

Could be nutella, yeah. Not interested in MP or Jules. Could definitely have a non entity scum. I don’t really have a read on LC, so not really ruling him out tbh.

Honestly I’m not even sure how much I think chuck is scum vs. how much I’m annoyed by him. I do think >rand but I’m not locking it. Probably should reread but I’m lazy.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:38 pm @NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME It feels like I need to address your grievance or you're going to tunnel me for the rest of the game.

Please point me to where I ignored evidence of your towniness and I'll talk about it. Don't have time to find it myself.

As far as I can tell your initial scumread of me consisted of “I have trouble SRing townies when I’m Mafia, so nanook does too.” This has been refuted, by myself and others. You still hang on to the scumread without updating it.

To me this reads like you having a very similar issue to the one you accused me of, struggling to find other townies to SR.

nutella wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:36 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:34 pm
nutella wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:24 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:10 pm
nutella wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:38 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:30 pm I mean I don’t particularly think they are, but being wrong on nutes isn’t gonna make me go “oh it must be Juliet then!”
Why not?? If it's not juliets, who the hell is it???

(I know you suspect speed but I don't see that at all. I'm so confident he's town. I know, I said the same thing about MR. But this is actually more substantial than that.)
Why would you being town have any bearing on my juliets read?
My point is POE. Your perceived probability that juliets is scum should go up when you see me flip town.
Sure, in the same way that everyone’s does. I don’t see how juliets specifically should go up more than anyone else.
Because pretty much everyone else is town ffs

I mean, I think juliets is pretty towny, so. POE is not a compelling argument for me here.

nutella wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:24 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:10 pm
nutella wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:38 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:30 pm I mean I don’t particularly think they are, but being wrong on nutes isn’t gonna make me go “oh it must be Juliet then!”
Why not?? If it's not juliets, who the hell is it???

(I know you suspect speed but I don't see that at all. I'm so confident he's town. I know, I said the same thing about MR. But this is actually more substantial than that.)
Why would you being town have any bearing on my juliets read?
My point is POE. Your perceived probability that juliets is scum should go up when you see me flip town.

Sure, in the same way that everyone’s does. I don’t see how juliets specifically should go up more than anyone else.

juliets wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:45 pm @nutella I don't think anything I can say about your case will cause you to change your mind. I will do it anyway since you actually asked with a "please" but I have to eat lunch first.

@NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME I will finish reading through nutella after I answer her and then give you a short version of what I think about her.

nutella wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:38 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:30 pm I mean I don’t particularly think they are, but being wrong on nutes isn’t gonna make me go “oh it must be Juliet then!”
Why not?? If it's not juliets, who the hell is it???

(I know you suspect speed but I don't see that at all. I'm so confident he's town. I know, I said the same thing about MR. But this is actually more substantial than that.)

Why would you being town have any bearing on my juliets read?

M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:58 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:35 pm Fine [VOTE: nutella] aubergine

@M Plus 7 if you wanna do a chuck counterwagon when you’re back lemme know but I’m not real interested in juliets.
Thanks for the ping. I suppose I could lynch speedchuck.

Ok, moving my vote there. Probably the best counterwagon imo

juliets wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:40 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:12 pm See now I’m conflicted, I am still very willing to kill nutella but I don’t wanna kill MP. I would/will actively fight an MP kill. So I’m a bit hesitant to jump back into nutella when the next place people wanna go is MP.

Can we do nutella and chuck instead?
If you are so sure about MP that you'll fight an MP lynch then I will not vote for him. I had mixed feelings anyway after reading your first post, and it just brings me further away from him to see how adamant you are. I don't think you would do this if you were bad with him and I don't think you're bad anyway, solidified by MR's posts that you should be the lynch. I'm not sure about speed though, I've been reading him as town but I'll go back and look at him again. He did start out the game with a weird Day 1 read of me that cited things I did in other civ games as scummy, but it seems like I've been shaking my head "yes" at a lot of his posts. The other thing about speed is he is way different from his scum self that I just saw in GOC. I'll give it a look though.

What’s your read on nutella? Just short version is fine, idk if you’ve said it already but I’m too lazy to look

Fine [VOTE: nutella] aubergine

[mention]M Plus 7[/mention] if you wanna do a chuck counterwagon when you’re back lemme know but I’m not real interested in juliets.

I mean I don’t particularly think they are, but being wrong on nutes isn’t gonna make me go “oh it must be Juliet then!”

Also I agree that nutella amd Jules aren’t w/w but why is it being treated like a 1v1? Still possible they’re t/t, no?

See now I’m conflicted, I am still very willing to kill nutella but I don’t wanna kill MP. I would/will actively fight an MP kill. So I’m a bit hesitant to jump back into nutella when the next place people wanna go is MP.

Can we do nutella and chuck instead?

speedchuck wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:54 am
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:30 am I mean I get what you’re saying but I think normal logic may not entirely apply given that radishes wasn’t even around to self prez and we had/have two non entities. Seems entirely possible that in a 3 scum world a more active partner would feel compelled to vote radishes, especially if one of the non entities is mafia, yeah?

Like I’m not pushing that world but I think it’s entirely plausible.
... says the guy who self-prezzed on MR

Yeah, I self prezzed on him before I had to, what’s your point?

juliets wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:07 am
juliets wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:22 am @NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME do you think MR was voting Tony for distance? I've somehow missed your reasons for putting a vote on him.
Nanook so sorry I got confused looking at the votes. You don't have a vote on Tony so never mind my question.

Hahaha ok, that makes more sense! I was pretty confused for a hot minute

juliets wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:22 am @NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME do you think MR was voting Tony for distance? I've somehow missed your reasons for putting a vote on him.

I’m not voting tony so I don’t understand the question? I’m actively TRing Tony

Hyena wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:09 am
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:30 pm Can I vote for speedchuck then

Or maybe I’m too focused on the “people pushing me for bad reasons” genre
Are you talking about him suggesting that you might struggle as scum to come up with reasons to scumread town players? I remember thinking it was a bad reason, too, and correcting him on that. However, I didn't think the way he presented his reason was, like, opportunistic or scummy. Plus, he seemed to retract that opinion in a later post if I remember correctly?

He SR for that, was presented with evidence that contradicted that SR, acknowledged it, and....continued to SR me.

Semi-ironically I think he may be having the same issue he accused me of, struggling to find reasons to SR townies, which leads to inflexibility in those reads even when presented with evidence that contradicts it.

I mean I get what you’re saying but I think normal logic may not entirely apply given that radishes wasn’t even around to self prez and we had/have two non entities. Seems entirely possible that in a 3 scum world a more active partner would feel compelled to vote radishes, especially if one of the non entities is mafia, yeah?

Like I’m not pushing that world but I think it’s entirely plausible.

Idk why mafia has to be on Sig wagon over mine? Both were close to as viable IIRC.

Maybe that’s my bias of TRing more people on Sig than me tho

I mean, you flipping town would have basically no bearing on my desire to kill juliets tbh.

“If you must lynch me” is pretty dramatic for someone with one vote on them

Like I don’t think I’d hard fight against juliets but I’d probably vote to save her, if that makes sense.

Like I’m not discouraging you from doing it, I’m not even telling you that you’re definitely wrong, I just don’t find it particularly helpful for me personally

nutella wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:35 am
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:30 am Like there’s 14 other players D1 and 12 others D2, there’s gonna be a lot of handwavey fluff interactions. I don’t see it as meaningful either way without meta that says one of them specifically interacts with partners that way, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a scum game from either one, so....it’s a big ol shrug and an “ok, sure.” from me.
Oh so you've actually just forgotten the GOC lol.

Yep 100% forgot he was mafia lolol

nutella wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:33 am
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:28 am
nutella wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:24 am
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:21 am
nutella wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:05 am
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:01 am
M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:58 pm

My vote is absolutely subject to change. If you have spoken to your town read of juliets elsewhere, feel free to point me to it.
Not more than briefly I think, it’s primarily a tone read. She reads exactly the same to me as last time I played with her, in GOC I think it must’ve been. Like she’s hitting all the same townie pings for me.

Tbh it’s also partly a function of who’s pushed on her, specifically chuck and now nutella. Not necessarily because they’re mafia (although I do think it’s nonzero they are), but also because I suspect their reads are fairly inverted this game if town.
These aren't very good reasons lol. She is very good at mimicking the same style as scum fyi. May be worth looking into a scum game of hers (Girl Genius comes to mind). And yeah my reads haven't been great so far in this game but do me a favor and look at the two posts where I assessed her and MR's interactions and just see what you think. They hardly talked about each other at all, and when they did it was quite handwavey and extremely compatible imo.
I’m barely reading this game I’m not gonna go read another one. And as a matter of principle I refuse to.

You can say “Jules has good tone regardless of alignment” but until I’m wrong I’m going to continue to TR her the way I have successfully before, small sample size be damned.
OK fine, but don't ignore the other thing I said. Give my case a look.
I don’t know how radishes or Jules normally handle partners so it’s pretty meaningless for me.
On radish's front I'd say we did a pretty dang good job of catching his teammates in the GOC based on interactive reads. And I know you like individual-specific reasons, but I'll argue that the way they treated each other here is more broadly very teammate compatible based on a general pattern of scum behavior. Plus, when you specifically compare it to how each of them treated almost everyone else, it's notably lacking. Like, when reading through MR's iso I found reasons to dissociate most other players from him, and juliets talked about most other players a fair amount as well. So the hole is gaping and conspicuous when it comes to their pairing.

Oh man I totally forgot he was mafia in that game! My memory is trash sometimes.

M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:31 am
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:30 am Like there’s 14 other players D1 and 12 others D2, there’s gonna be a lot of handwavey fluff interactions. I don’t see it as meaningful either way without meta that says one of them specifically interacts with partners that way, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a scum game from either one, so....it’s a big ol shrug and an “ok, sure.” from me.
Interactive analyses are a helpful tool in my opinion. Shouldn't be the end all be all, but they're worthwhile considerations.

I’m not saying they aren’t or that other people shouldn’t do them, just that I personally doubt I’m gonna get much out of it given my entire lack of meta knowledge regarding Radish’s and juliet’s scum games.

M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:28 am
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:26 am Idk man, I’m getting serious deja vu to GoC where there was a lot of “maybe juliets is mafia?” Early in the game and I didn’t understand it then and I don’t understand it now. Maybe she has an incredible wolf game and I don’t know it but idk, she just looks the same to me
Hmmm, talk to me some more about this. I'm also not sure what happened in GoC.

Uh, Jules was town that I correctly TR fairly early (D2 I wanna say), there was some early pushing against her (I don’t recall if she actually got voted up or not), it seemed silly to me, the pushing this game feels just as...I don’t wanna say stupid cause that’s too harsh, so let’s go with specious. Like it just feels like a paranoia “Jules has a good scum game” push to me.

Idk, I haven’t actually seen her mafia game so I’m wary of hard defending her, but if she looks the same to me as in a previous game I correctly TR her then I’m going to TR her again.

Like there’s 14 other players D1 and 12 others D2, there’s gonna be a lot of handwavey fluff interactions. I don’t see it as meaningful either way without meta that says one of them specifically interacts with partners that way, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a scum game from either one, so....it’s a big ol shrug and an “ok, sure.” from me.

nutella wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:24 am
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:21 am
nutella wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:05 am
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:01 am
M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:58 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:57 pm M Plus 7 you actively TR nutes and I actively TR Jules. Can we meet somewhere in the middle?
My vote is absolutely subject to change. If you have spoken to your town read of juliets elsewhere, feel free to point me to it.
Not more than briefly I think, it’s primarily a tone read. She reads exactly the same to me as last time I played with her, in GOC I think it must’ve been. Like she’s hitting all the same townie pings for me.

Tbh it’s also partly a function of who’s pushed on her, specifically chuck and now nutella. Not necessarily because they’re mafia (although I do think it’s nonzero they are), but also because I suspect their reads are fairly inverted this game if town.
These aren't very good reasons lol. She is very good at mimicking the same style as scum fyi. May be worth looking into a scum game of hers (Girl Genius comes to mind). And yeah my reads haven't been great so far in this game but do me a favor and look at the two posts where I assessed her and MR's interactions and just see what you think. They hardly talked about each other at all, and when they did it was quite handwavey and extremely compatible imo.
I’m barely reading this game I’m not gonna go read another one. And as a matter of principle I refuse to.

You can say “Jules has good tone regardless of alignment” but until I’m wrong I’m going to continue to TR her the way I have successfully before, small sample size be damned.
OK fine, but don't ignore the other thing I said. Give my case a look.

I don’t know how radishes or Jules normally handle partners so it’s pretty meaningless for me.

I’m gonna vote chuck I guess, still don’t feel amazing about nutes but maybe I’m just frustrated.

Idk man, I’m getting serious deja vu to GoC where there was a lot of “maybe juliets is mafia?” Early in the game and I didn’t understand it then and I don’t understand it now. Maybe she has an incredible wolf game and I don’t know it but idk, she just looks the same to me

nutella wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:05 am
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:01 am
M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:58 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:57 pm M Plus 7 you actively TR nutes and I actively TR Jules. Can we meet somewhere in the middle?
My vote is absolutely subject to change. If you have spoken to your town read of juliets elsewhere, feel free to point me to it.
Not more than briefly I think, it’s primarily a tone read. She reads exactly the same to me as last time I played with her, in GOC I think it must’ve been. Like she’s hitting all the same townie pings for me.

Tbh it’s also partly a function of who’s pushed on her, specifically chuck and now nutella. Not necessarily because they’re mafia (although I do think it’s nonzero they are), but also because I suspect their reads are fairly inverted this game if town.
These aren't very good reasons lol. She is very good at mimicking the same style as scum fyi. May be worth looking into a scum game of hers (Girl Genius comes to mind). And yeah my reads haven't been great so far in this game but do me a favor and look at the two posts where I assessed her and MR's interactions and just see what you think. They hardly talked about each other at all, and when they did it was quite handwavey and extremely compatible imo.

I’m barely reading this game I’m not gonna go read another one. And as a matter of principle I refuse to.

You can say “Jules has good tone regardless of alignment” but until I’m wrong I’m going to continue to TR her the way I have successfully before, small sample size be damned.

M Plus 7 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:58 pm
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:57 pm M Plus 7 you actively TR nutes and I actively TR Jules. Can we meet somewhere in the middle?
My vote is absolutely subject to change. If you have spoken to your town read of juliets elsewhere, feel free to point me to it.

Not more than briefly I think, it’s primarily a tone read. She reads exactly the same to me as last time I played with her, in GOC I think it must’ve been. Like she’s hitting all the same townie pings for me.

Tbh it’s also partly a function of who’s pushed on her, specifically chuck and now nutella. Not necessarily because they’re mafia (although I do think it’s nonzero they are), but also because I suspect their reads are fairly inverted this game if town.

And can that middle be chuck

[mention]M Plus 7[/mention] you actively TR nutes and I actively TR Jules. Can we meet somewhere in the middle?

Ehhh

Radishes stealing Jack’s power doesn’t, like, 100% lock jim town...but combined with it being a fairly useless scum power (and I have to believe scum have something useful since town has a day vig), I’m inclined to think he’s probably just town. Almost certainly not interested there until f3.

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