The Syndicate

Framed another way: "like you can pretend you didn't lock it in if you want to sound better but everyone who read the game knows you weren't shifting to BK"

There, less abrasive connotation-wise.

Now this is me saving my self-confidence and self-esteem, otherwise known as an ego.

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:44 pm

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:28 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:13 pm Martin who immediately entered and voted me

But didn't lock it in

You essentially did

like you can pretend you didn't lock it in if you want to salve your ego but everyone who read the game knows that you weren't shifting to BK

Salve my ego?

Did I give you the impression that I was or am hurt?

And in all honesty considering we've been discussing all this for awhile we probably aren't going to change each others minds and perhaps its best to respect that some people value things differently as compared to each individual's perspective.

Whatever, it is what it is. Regardless if I didn't lock my vote, its plausible (given the benefit of the doubt) that I wouldn't have changed my vote.

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:13 pm Martin who immediately entered and voted me

But didn't lock it in

NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:08 pm Syn and 1612 were the other two.

Its pinned in the dead/spec chat so I'm sure it's fine to share

Ah okay so it was fine to share. The reason why the re-rand happened was because of a replacement / potential mod-kill crisis that might have been prone to angle-shooting.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:00 pm GG all, think I finally "get" TS.

Can we see the original rand @Sloonei?

I think I'm safe to say I was a mafia in the original run. I don't know if I can discuss who else were the mafia.

My ISO in the original run: https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/searc ... 8&sr=posts

"Play" needs a better definition. I'm using the more vague sense of the word there, as in I was questioning you as a player.

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:28 pm

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:07 pm Okay, maybe I got too agitated.

I apologize if I offended you Alison, but I think we just have critical differences in perspective of Fourm Mafia play.

I was perhaps unfairly sensitive to the word use of "wrong" (as the connotation can be associated with more negatively than just facts such as morality), but I'm willing to admit in some aspects that my play was incorrect or suboptimal. I just don't think it was the worst.

No, you didn't offend me. I don't get mad when I lose games of mafia. I've lost a billion games of mafia, in way more embarrassing ways than this, and I wasn't upset at any of them, because that's the risk you accept when you sign up to a game, that you could get tricked and lose the game. And at the end of the day it's a detective game for 0 stakes. I got annoyed because you accused me of being bad at mafia and having no evidence to support my claims about how to play the game and then snap voting me 5 minutes into F3. I don't think you should be criticizing my ideas about game theory and calling me lazy, unmotivated etc. when I clearly was able and willing to put a lot of effort into solving the game and had specific reasons why I was pushing for an auto on Kyle. Snap voting 5 minutes into F3 is just always a bad play so I felt it was pretty hypocritical of you to criticize my understanding of theory right after doing that.

I apologize for questioning your play, I wasn't right in doing that even if I scum-read you. This is a really rare experience for me, as I normally don't get so agitated (if one would believe me I'm generally more resistant to that than most people), but that makes the lessons learned all the more valuable.

Like I said, I think I was unfairly judging the meaning of some of your word-choice, and I was perhaps too invested in this game. I'll try to do better in the future and try to consider that more, regardless of what I think about you. As well as monitoring my own word choice, as I now know what thoughts I had that led me to make bad decisions in this respect.

Aside from the end there, it was nice playing with you.

Okay, maybe I got too agitated.

I apologize if I offended you Alison, but I think we just have critical differences in perspective of Fourm Mafia play.

I was perhaps unfairly sensitive to the word use of "wrong" (as the connotation can be associated with more negatively than just facts such as morality), but I'm willing to admit in some aspects that my play was incorrect or suboptimal. I just don't think it was the worst.

Right before F3*

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:51 pm Literally just auto Kyle and we can have a proper F3 where we play mafia normally instead of this shit where you force a 1/1/1 wagon and a self vote then immediately copypaste a wall of text and vote a townie in F3. How in the fuck is that optimal play.

Hey you didn't have any solving before F3.

You could've solved then if Kyle was town, but decided not to. Same issue falls with Kyle a bit, but I figured being tunneled for so long like that with "optimal play" was disheartening or demoralizing. Why bother solving if you just get chopped anyways by a person who's overconfident in them surviving F3?

I did solving, and I thought you were scum and there's nothing wrong with that play other than the strict fact that you and I were town. I put more effort into this late game than anyone else I believe, and there isn't any factual wrongness on that.

The only thing about my actions is that they were incorrect. And that's all there is to it. They aren't wrong, and my reads aren't "about rand".

BoKnows wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:50 pm

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:49 pm GG to @BoKnows though

at least I was right they were trying to anti-spew with the D1 elimination

maybe not bussing but vaguely in the same area

When you said that you gave me half a heart attack

In retrospect your reaction was pockety

But I got distracted by something I felt was distinctly wrong no matter how its put

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:49 pm

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:48 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:44 pm Anyway I've locked my vote on you and I'm town so if you're town you can pat yourself on the back for the worst tunnel on planet earth, scumreading Alison for playing like a robot.

Says the person who did that to kyle

LHF pushing like that

it was terrible imo and I won't be sad to conflict with such a thing again in the future because that is what I believe

The difference between you and me is that I made that push in F5 and you made that push in F3. I specifically tried to avoid getting Kyle to F3 because I knew Kyle would lose any F3. Construct any theoretically possible F3 with Kyle in it that wins the game, you can't. Kyle self voted because he knew this, only you threw the game anyway by immediately voting me and thus making it impossible for town to win.

Theory implies there's evidence.

There isn't.

GG to @BoKnows though

at least I was right they were trying to anti-spew with the D1 elimination

maybe not bussing but vaguely in the same area

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:44 pm Anyway I've locked my vote on you and I'm town so if you're town you can pat yourself on the back for the worst tunnel on planet earth, scumreading Alison for playing like a robot.

Says the person who did that to kyle

LHF pushing like that

it was terrible imo and I won't be sad to conflict with such a thing again in the future because that is what I believe

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:44 pm

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:41 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:38 pm There is no major vulnerability to my play. If Kyle had been permitted to come to this F3 the game would be over. You are either scum or so willingly blind about what good mafia play means that you're throwing the entire F3 for the sake of it.

Should've explained and solved better

But I guess you don't need to do that as scum.

At least I made a good, honest-to-god, read on Kyle and I was godamm right. If you think that's a misplay for me to read that on D5 and to investigate and push you instead then you should've re-evaluate what scum-hunting is.

Yeah, and saving Kyle would have lost F3 anyway. So there's no world where you're town and played correctly there, you're either mafia or you're town who threw the game with your sick derail of a very simple POE.

You're projecting your own beliefs onto others wrt how LHF a slot is.

BoKnows only voted with you because he thought you were right; not because he scum-read Kyle from what I've read.

Yeah you should vote me if you're scum

the guy who didn't give you free coverage when Alison did

I don't really care about whether my reads are about rand, as a past quote suggested.

I'm here to improve myself and I'm not going to let you lazily coast on some mech-informed plan that got us nothing since Quin, while denying my hopes of improving myself.

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:38 pm There is no major vulnerability to my play. If Kyle had been permitted to come to this F3 the game would be over. You are either scum or so willingly blind about what good mafia play means that you're throwing the entire F3 for the sake of it.

Should've explained and solved better

But I guess you don't need to do that as scum.

At least I made a good, honest-to-god, read on Kyle and I was godamm right. If you think that's a misplay for me to read that on D5 and to investigate and push you instead then you should've re-evaluate what scum-hunting is.

I don't think anyone genuinely believes in this.

The Kyle chop was just the most questionable thing I've every felt in a mafia game, and it bothering my has gotten me to the reasons why.

Okay, continuing my problems w/ Alison's brilliant VCA idea that led to chopping Kyle without even trying to read him....when chopping kyle was supported by the false claim that he didn't have a wolf-pelt at all.

I've made it more concise, though it is a bit lengthy:

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:14 pm I don't want to live in a world where people vote based on vibes at F3. If that's the way you want to play it then you might as well rand the exes because that's what your reads are going to be like at this point.

Well, you are trying to solve at F3 rather than before-hand. Seems similar to blind flying to me, and makes you incredibly hard to read as town (if town) because you aren't solving through any non-mechanical sense and that makes you incredibly susceptible to mafia agendas and plans. I don't believe that you genuinely believe in such play with such a major vulnerability.

It's entirely possible that, in another hypothetical world (see spoiler), that if 2 mafia bussed Falcon on d1 and we followed your "we must clear towns without a wolf pelt first" then it would have been impossible for town to win that unless the mafia decided to help you out by night-killing the towns who weren't on the D1 mafia wagon or giving them a gun.

The fact that you've been presenting this sort of idea and play since SoD2 with your auto-clear of the D1 wagon makes it seem like you had a plan that didn't adapt because you're scum, and you were intending to bus Quin with it in order to deep-wolf. Your insistence that there was a save on D1 benefits only you and (quite conveniently) your read on BoKnows.

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:16 pm It's just that before you can start digging into "who bussed?" you should first get rid of the people who don't have any pelts, and then when you've proven that mafia bussed then you can start figuring out who it was. Rather than just throw everything to the wind and picking some random interaction and staking the game off that.

If we follow through with this reasoning then its "correct" for us to always chop BoKnows here since he has never had an EoD vote on a wolf while I and you do. Only that he had been voted by wolves before. You're bullshitting more in this belief of yours imo especially when you've said this before that and very recently:

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:47 pm So the question is, will Kyle or Alison be better positioned to convince the other townie that they're innocent in F3? And the answer is clearly me.

There wouldn't be a need to clear yourself if you strongly believed that towns without a pelt needed to go first. If you're counting even temporary votes on wolves, then I think quite a few players would find that level of free coverage and clear to be outrageous.


Additionally: I'm not sure why you didn't account for Kyle having a vote on Quin for EoD1.

Kyle could've switched to Falcon if he was going to bus D1, so there would've been no point for him to vote Quin if he was scum. He had a wolf-pelt in most respects, and should have had that.

@Sloonei
@juliets

Hammer.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:26 pm I will be self voting in all circumstances other than the potential for a martin or BoKnows yeet

So you'll be self-voting. You won't get 3 votes on anyone else.

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:24 pm I can't force you to play the game the way I want

This applies to both ways, and you can't always know what people will think.

Like there should be no policy or mandatory procedure because of mafia deletions.

I don't believe in that and I find it incredibly suspect reasoning especially as a player who has almost always bussed 1 teammate in their scum games.

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:20 pm Voting out mafia doesn't mean you're town, but if you haven't voted out any mafia then you need to be resolved. That's what I'm saying, it's as clear as day, and you're spinning in 50 circles trying to avoid that.

Then its policy, if you mandatorily resolve everyone who doesn't vote a mafia.

You don't actually scum-read kyle.

Anyways, its entirely possible (in a hypotheyical new game of this) just to do 1 bus, and then have 4-5 towns not on that wagon. Do we just chop all the towns because two mafia were bussing?

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:13 pm

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:09 pm You're so confident in what you think the game state is and what people's views are and the reasons X appears town to others

you seemingly become ignorant of the natural existence that is unpredictability in games

heck the very fact that I'm voting you suggests such and that I'm TR'ing kyle was likely unexpected for you

Making a hero shot on F3 is like hitting on 19 in Blackjack. You just don't do it.

Nobody's doing the hero shooting because a single vote doesn't decide an F3.

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:11 pm If Kyle is town then it's correct to prove that today and do the real solving tomorrow - because there's no mechanics in the game that can prove Kyle's innocence despite having the highest scum equity, the only way to conclusively prove that he is in fact town is to exe him. This means that Kyle should be resolved on a day that the town does not lose if he is town. The alternative is bringing him to F3 where is a liability even if he is town because in that world, he will always be unable to clear himself and will place extreme pressure on the other townie just by being alive. It's just not a good play.

Nobody other than kyle is mechanically proven either.

Voting scum or "burying them" is not a gate-way to townie heaven and I have not had a scum game since last August where I did not bus.

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:14 pm You're using it to justify Kyle's execution; not just why you're town.

ebwop

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:09 pm

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:07 pm And I don't believe that.

That isn't factually established.

It is because if Kyle goes to F3 then town has to exe him due to the fact that he's the only one in the game who hasn't buried a mafia member

The only way your play wins is if you're right about Kyle being town AND town gets there on him at F3 despite the fact that he was hard POE'd yesterday and the wagon was deviated from him to exe a townie AND everyone else has buried a mafia member and he hasn't

Please think about how town's win condition is achieved instead of treating the poll as a glorified readslist

You really don't think people have different values for how persuasive, towny, or scummy must be?

How boring must a game become. Not to mention, I don't think its impossible for scum to bus; I believe that implies nobody here will think of bussing.

The fact that you're using it to such great lengths as towny AI assertively bothers me as well. You're using it to justify Kyle's execution; not why you're town.

You're so confident in what you think the game state is and what people's views are and the reasons X appears town to others

you seemingly become ignorant of the natural existence that is unpredictability in games

heck the very fact that I'm voting you suggests such and that I'm TR'ing kyle was likely unexpected for you

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:04 pm

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:03 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:01 pm

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:00 pm I think you're over-confident. I have never felt that you weren't that.

I have given actual reasoning why it is always incorrect to vote like this

kindly refer to it

Nah. I'm not going to put up with this.

If it were apparently "actual reasoning" from my perspective, I wouldn't be challenging you, so "kindly refer to it" does nothing here.

Let me put it in words you can understand

If Kyle is town then he can never be permitted to live to F3, because town Kyle at F3 is an auto loss for town

And I don't believe that.

That isn't factually established.

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:01 pm

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:59 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:57 pm If you think Kyle is strong town then all the mafia has to do is nightkill you and get a free misexe on Kyle in F3

so you're throwing the game if you're town regardless of whether you're right or wrong about Kyle by voting me

"Throwing" is such a strong word for a supposedly uninformed person.

I just explained that it's the wrong play regardless of what alignment Kyle is from the perspective of town martin

so you're either town who just made an extremely poor decision or you're scum

I don't recall you explaining that from my position. Only yours, and that you always vote Kyle there if the game is going to always chop you or kyle today.

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:01 pm

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:00 pm I think you're over-confident. I have never felt that you weren't that.

I have given actual reasoning why it is always incorrect to vote like this

kindly refer to it

Nah. I'm not going to put up with this.

If it were apparently "actual reasoning" from my perspective, I wouldn't be challenging you, so "kindly refer to it" does nothing here.

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:00 pm I think you're over-confident. I have never felt that you weren't that.

It gives me agenda-y vibes, and you've decided things that I can't use to help me see you town especially with parts of it being off-put to an F3.

It's also painfully clear that whoever is scum here has non-w/w seeming interactions with the wolves, because that applies to everyone here I think.

I think you're over-confident. I have never felt that you weren't that.

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:57 pm If you think Kyle is strong town then all the mafia has to do is nightkill you and get a free misexe on Kyle in F3

so you're throwing the game if you're town regardless of whether you're right or wrong about Kyle by voting me

"Throwing" is such a strong word for a supposedly uninformed person.

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:55 pm he has completely thrown this endgame with his behavior which is a scum red flag

Apparently trying to contribute, solve, and disagree with you, is qualification for being scum.

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:52 pm

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:39 pm

Kylemii wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:35 pm ugh don't make me solve a tie, I was perfectly happy sacrificing my life for some bullshit and now I gotta maybe think about consequences????

You're town to me. Do whatever you think is wise aside from voting yourself.

why is kyle suddenly strong town to you

It's more of a final decision for the day phase.

I'm increasingly tired of debating who it is.

I would appreciate an Alison vote if you're going to vote though.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:35 pm ugh don't make me solve a tie, I was perfectly happy sacrificing my life for some bullshit and now I gotta maybe think about consequences????

You're town to me. Do whatever you think is wise aside from voting yourself.

BoKnows wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:20 pm I'm having a hard time following the whole alison is objectively better to have in the f3 than kyle. IF they're both town why does it matter who's in the f3?

Yeah it is potentially confusing

The reasoning involves a lot of hypotheticals and current town consensus.

(Though we may not actually have a strong consensus.)

BoKnows wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:18 pm If TS account shows up we can all vote on different people. 20% chance of ending the game

@ts account hey look at me I'm scum

I'm joking.

I acutally kinda don't object to the TS vote even if I think he's town.

3-way rand between Alison/TS/Kyle is better than no-rand kill on Kyle imo.

Well, a tie that can kill a mafia is better than a wagon that will kill a town I guess lol.

BoKnows wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:12 pm I'm having a hard time understanding everything right now.

I don't blame you.

@BoKnows please move your vote or something