The Syndicate

Legacy reads in case I die:

Chardonnay
Long Con
DrWilgy
Dragon D. Luffy
Cayvie
Cassowary
Fatmo
Carotenoid
Dov

PSINightmareEmpower wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:47 am

I had a stoke trying to read this lol

Apparently I also had a stroke trying to spell the word stroke

[mention]chardonnay[/mention] Um...8:30-9:30 A.M. probably and 12:00-1:00 P.M. I think? (I'm PST btw so do the math for your timezone) I only have one hour increments mid-day. If I don't die during this Night I might be available in the evening as well...but don't count on me making it that long.

Long Con wrote: ↑Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:13 am

I had a stoke trying to read this lol

cassowary wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:46 pm psi, who would you vote for out of { dov, marcher } ?

Kind of pointless to answer since Marcher obviously flipped wolf, but I'll do it anyway. Um...before EoD, I'm not actually sure. I probably would have voted Marcher, but I was also heavily considering Dov since I think they're both scum and I wanted to see what would happen. I probably could have flipped a coin and been happy with either result.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:12 pm Actually sorry.

4 names not 2. Since we have 4 yeets.

So if you can townread everyone but 4 and be right, you're golden.

Uh...I still think the remaining two are Dov and Carotte, but...I guess Cayvie and Fatmo would be the most likely deepwolves in my townreads? Maybe. Not sure.

Oh. That's Day end. I forgot to check it.

I also forgot majority isn't required again, so not voting doesn't make that much of a difference.

Wow okay this plan isn't working at all.

Okay fine, vote however you want. At this point trying to enforce the order is pretty pointless. I'll wait until like right before EoD to vote, but I probably will vote regardless of how many other people have voted.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:10 pm Dropping a vote on Cass and will put in an effort to catch up during lunch.

Recall that I wanted to murk Cayvie/Cass d1 but since then haven't been too mindful of the game.

Marcher gladiated Dov so that won't count. You'll have to vote for one of them.

Honestly I don't really see the huge benefit of doing this popcorn style either, but I'm trying to honor Alison's wishes when she was alive, so chances are she was totally right about how it might change things. So I feel we should do it anyway.

My list would look like this:
Town: PSI, Cayvie, Chard, Jack
Weak town: Cass, Fatmo, DDL
Null: Wilgy, LC
Scum: Marcher, Dov, Carotte

I can move Carotte up to null to reconcile with everyone else, but not moving her up any higher.

I don't want to waste too much time on this, so since Dov is in everyone's scum list, I think we can start with him. [mention]dov[/mention] Please place a vote! (I already know what it will be but yeah.) I'm not sure when Dov will come around, so we might be able to start on the nulls and let [mention]DrWilgy[/mention] and [mention]Long Con[/mention] vote now too.

Pretty sure the order has changed a bit since then, because I think after U-G's flip Cass looks a lot better, and Carotte is maybe more suspected now? Actually I think Alison might have been townreading her the most. So yeah, I feel like an update to the list might be in order.

All righty, that works I guess. How do we want to do this? Popcorn style like Alison suggested before her death? Or everybody votes whoever? Popcorn style is harder when the votes don't reset, but if we think that's a good idea, everyone who's already voted can just move their vote to No Vote temporarily.

I can also make a list of scummiest to least scummiest players if need be.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:46 am

PSINightmareEmpower wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:06 am Have a thing I want to say to @Dragon D. Luffy that isn't game-relevant enough to be outside of a spoiler box.

Spoiler: show

If I'm being honest here, I've been a bit bothered by the way you kept pushing me about my U-G read. And then sort of made a point after he flipped about how I should have been stronger in my convictions. The thing is, I did vote--if only temporarily--and I only switched because I knew the thread wasn't responsive to my case. I was going to come back to him later. I'm not a "set in stone" kind of player who sticks to their convictions no matter what, that's just not my playstyle. I'm a fluid player who changes my behavior according to the thread state. If the majority of the players don't think my case holds water, then I'll save it for another time and move on to something more important. That's just the way I play. So I feel like there may have been some personality clashing between us.

However, I do admit I'm in the wrong here too. I was the one bragging about my reads and complaining that nobody ever listens to me, but if I really thought I was right I should have stuck to my guns. I'm sorry for being rather snarky about the whole ordeal. That's my fault.

I don't wish to discuss this much further as it's not directly related to the game state or either of our alignments. I just thought I should bring it to your attention.

Ok, I'm sorry that I was somewhat of a jerk to you. I made those posts knowing there was a chance I might offend to you, but decided to do it anyway because I felt like I was in the right. But I admit I could have found kinder ways to say it. So I apologize.

I just made those posts because you were giving me the feeling that you played the game to feel right about reads rather than to win it, and that bothered me. But I also didn't know the bit about how you expected the game to have a majority lynch, so that changes the perspective somewhat. Anyway, hope we can be in good terms from n0ow on, you seem like a cool person.

All right, glad we've got that sorted out. *thumbs up* We cool now.

---

I just realized that Carotte may be hard-pocketing me and has been doing so for much of the game. It started when everyone else was suspecting me and she was the only one insisting she thought I was town, and has continued all the way up to her soft-defending me while attacking DDL. Very odd... I will look into this.

Not sure how I feel about Dov randomly dropping in to complain about being scumread and then dropping back out again to ignore us asking him to put in some effort. Feels more like he wants our pity rather than actually wanting to prove his towniness to us. [mention]dov[/mention] Please come back!

Still steadily ignoring the Marcher wagon right now because it feels off. Yesterday I was totally convinced it was right, but Today I'm not so sure. Either we're way off base and Marcher is just town, or everyone on the scumteam thinks Marcher is doomed and wants that sweet towncred. Whatever the answer is, I'm not currently comfortable with the wagon. I'll see how I feel closer to EoD.

[mention]Marcher Jovian[/mention] I do think you really need to use your gladiator ability soon. At this point I'm worried it's a fakeclaim. Does anyone else have any ideas on who Marcher should use it on? Maybe Carotte?

Cass is moving up the townreads to sit next to Chard in Moderate Townlean. Nothing else has changed with my reads.

chardonnay wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:15 amYou suspect Charrote, what did you think of her hard push on DDL? is that why you're town reading him here? or alternately why you scum read Carotte rn?

I thought Carotte's points about DDL were a bit odd, as I don't think his interaction with me said anything about his alignment. When I first read her post, I agreed with her wholeheartedly and actually got a little unreasonably mad at him about it (had to step away from the thread to prevent major salt), but rereading it, I can see how she's "twisting his words" a little. I'm not sure if it's intentional manipulation or just looking for a reason to suspect DDL though (which I don't blame her for, I sometimes see things that aren't there in an effort to force a scumread--but it could also be looking for a reason to push DDL). This isn't really why I'm townreading DDL or why I'm scumreading Carotte. In fact, I'm having a little trouble reading the interaction itself and pinning down what it means (someone said it seemed like v/v but I'm not sure I agree with that).

I can read them individually though. DDL still feels town because I haven't seen any reason to think otherwise. I think he's playing a fairly pro-town game and I've liked a lot of his takes. I just simply have no reason to think he's anything other than town, even if there may have been a little personality/playstyle clash going on. Carotte, on the other hand, hasn't (to me) done much to make me believe she's town. The gutread has stuck around since Day 1 and hasn't gotten any weaker, and I think she's still totally in her wolfrange (not that I've seen her wolf game but I've seen her town game so idk where that leaves us). I have this sort of impression (without having done any ISOing of course) that she's been looking for reasons to read people a certain way rather than making reads based off of what she sees. It feels fake, I guess. I don't know how accurate that impression is though since I still haven't had time to reread the thread/her posts, so it's only off of memory. I also agree with Cayvie's assessment that she's very compatible with U-G.

Dunno how well that answered your question but those are my thoughts.

[mention]chardonnay[/mention] Hi! I feel like we're always online at the same time, but we never really interact much. I kinda want to do that, but I don't have any specific questions for you. Do you have any for me?

I am legitimately astonished that I didn't die last night. I was so convinced that I was going to be the NK target that I barely put any effort in yesterday and was already browsing signups for the next game to join once I got booted from this one. At least I have a little more time before I almost inevitably get killed.

Or maybe my takes are so bad that mafia somehow want me in late-game because they think they can trick me into voting for townies.

Anyway, moving on from that.

Have a thing I want to say to [mention]Dragon D. Luffy[/mention] that isn't game-relevant enough to be outside of a spoiler box.
@Carotenoid I would also prefer you not pry into the above issue any further either, as I don't believe it has any bearing on either of our alignments.

---

dov wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:03 pm Also, if you guys truly think I'm scum, please just vote for me already. I didn't have a good start in the game because I wasn't sure what was happening but if you want to get rid of some suspicion, may as well vote me off because I'm sure as time goes on, you will only think I'm scum. I don't think there's any other way I can persuade otherwise, do what you must do.

Oh come on, don't give up! If you truly have a townie rolecard, you need to prove it to us. The best possible way to do that is to simply ignore our suspicions of you and give your own opinions on the game. Where does Nutella's flip leave you with regards to my alignment? What do you think about Carotte objectively? Are there any other players that stand out to you right now? What do you think about Marcher? Could you give me a binary reads list? I need to see townie effort and content from you. If you want to stop being scumread, try to help us find other scum and sort out the townies.

I think the scumteam is probably Marcher/Dov/Carotte/U-G. That seems about right to me, but we've got some other people we can look into if one or more of them falls through.

I'm going to hold off on voting Marcher for now, if only because I have this weird gut feeling we're walking into a trap. It feels too easy. I have no idea what I'm expecting to happen, and I'm probably wrong, but something in me is telling me to wait.

Should we have Marcher gladiate someone? It's starting to get suspicious to me that they're still waiting around to do it; however, our previous suggestions have all been killed off by now. So who should we choose? I'd like Marcher to choose someone because at least proof their ability isn't bogus would be nice.

I was townreading Fatmo. It's mostly just gut. I feel like they have a genuineness about them that's hard to replicate as scum, and a true desire to solve the game. It's not a strong read and I need to ISO at some point (I'm just going to keep making these promises and never fulfill them aren't I?), but that was my reasoning.

Sorry if I'm mostly absent for a bit. Not really feeling the game right now. Will try to engage more later.

Welp. That's a bit sad, I must say. Guess we were wrong about Neutron.

I was FUCKING right about U-G though. Nobody FUCKING listens to my takes. Two game streak for gutreading scummy reactions correctly. Y'all better fucking listen to me next time I have a take like this.

Not sure what to do about Marcher though. If Neutron was town, is there a possibility Marcher is scum anyway? Not sure about that yet.

My weekend is quickly slipping by and I still haven't done any ISO-ing. Sorry about that, I'll try at some point.

Alison wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:17 am In any case, it seems clear to me that you are not going to make good use of your ability outside of the case I specified earlier. Therefore, unless anyone has a compelling argument why we should not, I will ask you to use your ability on DJ Neutron.

Seconded. This makes perfect sense.

Worth noting that Gladiator works on both factions (in fact, on Starmen we had a mafia-aligned Gladiator who claimed to be town) so even if Marcher proves their ability it doesn't clear them. Ergo, I will still be voting for them even if they use their ability.

Nooo Nutellaaaaa!!! I will avenge you!!!!!

Welp. We were a nice town bloc while it lasted. *salute*

---

[VOTE: Marcher Jovian] aubergine

I think this is pretty obvious. If Marcher flips scum we go after Neutron next. If Marcher flips town...Neutron could still be scum, but we also look at Cass, LC, and Dov. (Worth noting that unless Dov does something super townie by the time we get around to him, he's still probably going to get chopped at some point.)

I will say that I am currently very uncomfortable with the Cass wagon. It feels too...easy? Does anyone even have a legitimate case on them? It still feels like universal scumread is the only reason. I'm not seeing any real reason to scumread them right now. I do want to do an ISO, but I'm not sure I'll really find anything there.

What do we think about Jack getting burned? If it's a mafia poisoner, we can basically consider him clear, but I don't know if there would ever be a town-sided poisoner-type role.

Also, does the presence of an indie get announced by the host of every game? As in, do we know there almost certainly isn't one since Nanook didn't mention it, or is it like on Starmen where you can basically expect at least one per game?

[mention]Jackofhearts2005[/mention] I have a lot of posts defining those reads, so I can't really link just one post, so I'll just tell you right now.

The Marcher scumread is based on their extremely odd development on the EoD wagons. They vote Cass, making it clear that they do not want to vote Neutron. A bit later, they state that they'd rather vote Jiwon than Neutron and vote Jiwon. It's just such an odd development. They gave minimal reasoning for voting Cass and then switch to Jiwon with zero reasoning, all while explicitly avoiding Neutron. I read it as Cass and Jiwon both being town and Marcher flipping to the more viable wagon to counter the Neutron one.

Neutron is just a general feeling of scumminess that I can't put into words very well. Her recent posts haven't done much for her either. She works as a wolf with nearly everyone, and she just hasn't had any feeling of towniness to me. I do need to ISO her though.

My read on Nutella was mostly based on the townie energy I felt from her, and the fact that she and I had mindmelded quite a bit. However, I am starting to doubt that read, because the way a lot of her reads develop seems to be almost immediately after mine, and I'm worried it's a pocketing attempt. She also seems like the kind of person to "exude townie energy" even as mafia. So yeah, less confident in this now.

You didn't ask for this, but I will update my thoughts on U-G. I am a lot less confident in what I saw in him now than I was then, and would probably move him towards mild to super super light scumlean. I do feel, however, that he hasn't exactly left his wolfrange yet. I can see most of his posts as coming from wolf too. So I guess that's why he's in scumlean.

Alison
Nutella
Cayvie
Fatmo
DDL
Chard
Cass
Jack
DrWilgy
LC
Carot
Dov
U-G
Neutron
Marcher

I have just discovered colors. Have a revised version.

Current reads, in order, are:

Strong to moderate townlean:
Alison
Nutella
Cayvie

Mild townlean:
Fatmo
DDL
Chard

Null w/ slight towniness:
Cass
Jack

Total null:
DrWilgy
LC

Null w/ slight scumminess:
Carot

Mild scumlean:
Dov
U-G

Moderate to strong scumlean:
Neutron
Marcher

Sorry I have so many categories X_X My reads are very specific and I can't divide them up with any fewer categories. It would probably be easier if I could use colors like I do on Starmen.

cayvie wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:43 pm it's my guess that exactly one of cass/djns is mafia, and that--if this is the case--at least one of mj and dov is mafia.

I def agree with this. Right now I'm thinking Neutron/Marcher is probably w/w, and if one flips wolf I'd like to go for the other. If Neutron flips civ I do think there's a good chance Marcher is still wolf, because sometimes scum will oppose a town wagon hoping to get towncred for knowing they'd flip town.

Pretty sure I just think Marcher is wolf no matter what.

I do think U-G/Neutron can't be w/w though. I don't think Wolf!U-G comes into the thread and does his first ISO on his scumbuddy, then "puts a gun to his head" and reads her as scum.

Dov has fewer associations imo. I think Dov works as w/w with Cass, Neutron, or Marcher, or even all three. But I'm less strong on him being wolf bc I've seen town like him too often. I'd much rather flip one of the other 3 first.

Cass is prooobably not w/w with U-G either, but I could be mistaken.

Sorry for all the pre-flip associations. Just thinking aloud right now.

Okay, I legitimately did not know we'd be allowed to post during the Night phase. I mean, I saw the whole "33 post cap for nights" part, but I never really registered that. I guess I'll never get a moment of peace will I

I also forgot that the person with the most votes would get chopped even if they weren't at majority. That's not how it works on Starmen (although it actually probably should, we've had waaay too many abstains on that site).

So anyway, the fact that Jiwon flipped town does not really surprise me, and I'm a bit relieved that they were vanilla town so we didn't lose anyone super valuable, but I do think we should take a look at that wagon (VCA enclosed below).
All right, yeah, got a couple of suspects to vote/take a look at Day 2 based off of this info, plus I still suspect U-G.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:46 pm

PSINightmareEmpower wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:28 pm

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:25 pm

PSINightmareEmpower wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:17 pm Ugh. Neither of the alternate viable wagons look good to me, but I know U-G isn't popular enough to go through right now. I have to switch, but I don't know to whom.

Jiwon isn't doing anything for me. I'm all right with it, but not personally sold on it. Clearing out the inactives is important though, so maybe I should?

I can't vote Cass in good conscience. I haven't done enough research on them to confidently place a vote. It's just a sheep read I'd do as mafia so I can't vote them until I've done my research, and I don't have time to do research before EoD.

...

...

...Jiwon it is.

[VOTE: JiwonMeganPark] aubergine

There are 2 votes on UG, that's hardly "not popular enough" in my book.

The majority of people have said that they think U-G is town or null at best, while they seem more open to Jiwon or Cass. I'm saying I don't think it'll get past 3 votes.

You have over two hours. The difference from your UG to the top wagon after you vote is just 2 votes. If you can't sell your own case, who is going to do that for you?

Selling cases is part of the skill of being a townie. You posted early that last game you read the scum correctly but people didn't follow you. Maybe they didn't follow you because you didn't try to get others to follow you?

To be fair, I wasn't dropping the flip forever, just for D1.

Like you said, my case is super tinfoil-y. It's based off of something that more intuitive players tend to see than analytical players, because it's based off of my gut feelings about a reaction, not a real *case*, if you know what I mean. I think that's why Nutella saw what I saw, while most other people didn't--because we have a similar playstyle. I can't sell a case that's based off of gut, because not everyone *feels* the same way I do.

Also I legit forgot that we didn't need to reach majority to push it through, so that's why I gave up so quickly.

(For the record, in that recent game where I correctly identified a wolf, we did actually get about 1-2 votes away from flipping the wolf; like I said earlier in this post, on Starmen, you can't get a chop through unless it's reached majority. Also, we did get rid of that wolf, it was just after I got NKed and they'd been red checked. Thought the details might be helpful for you.)

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:54 pm

PSINightmareEmpower wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:41 pm All right guys, I have to go and I won't be back for EoD. @Townies If you haven't voted yet, you should vote. Trust your instincts, make good decisions. I'll see you on Day 2.

I expect to see you next game telling tales about how you knew who the scum was in Avatar but nobody listened to you again.

Assuming UG is scum, that is.

Oh trust me, I will.

cassowary wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:19 pmTo be real here, this is going to sound kind of silly, but I think part of the reason people who played with me before are reading me badly on tone is because we just (like, last week) finished a game that lasted like 3 months, where it was only my second time playing mafia, and I survived almost to the end of the game, so I think I had to adjust the way I usually reason about the game to make that work. I think I'm still having a bit of trouble getting back into the town mindset, like, I have to actually put effort into thinking about the game state and not throw shade at random people just to try to get them killed?? Lame!! I hope that makes sense. Like, I've still got to change gears in my brain a little bit, so I might be coming across different than usual. But maybe for example I should cut chardonnay etc some slack on reading me as vaguely suspicious. Sorry guys.

As sus as this looks, I kinda believe it. Especially since you've hardly ever played as mafia so you really had to alter your mindset for it. In fact, when I roll mafia again I might just accidentally start bussing my buddies because I want to help town. So yeah, this makes sense to me, in a really weird way. Maybe I'll move you to super super light scumlean!

cayvie wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:54 pm

PSINightmareEmpower wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:53 pm Oh hey I forgot mobile was a thing

I am a way slower phone typer than computer typer though

Just popping in to say that I am not comfortable with my Jiwon vote and am okay with seeing if we can get Neutron through in 8 minutes.

[VOTE: DJ Neutron Star] aubergine

make sure you actually vote in the poll if you want it to count

I did, took me a sec to navigate on mobile

Oh hey I forgot mobile was a thing

I am a way slower phone typer than computer typer though

Just popping in to say that I am not comfortable with my Jiwon vote and am okay with seeing if we can get Neutron through in 8 minutes.

[VOTE: DJ Neutron Star] aubergine

All right guys, I have to go and I won't be back for EoD. @Townies If you haven't voted yet, you should vote. Trust your instincts, make good decisions. I'll see you on Day 2.

[mention]Fatmo[/mention] Write it like this: [ vote ] player [ / vote ] but remove the spaces. You also have to vote in the poll.

nutella wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:33 pm Still don't really get the near universal Cass scumread. I feel gut towny about them. But maybe if everyone else sees something I'm not they could be onto something. Idk trusting my gut for now.

Good point. Universal gut scumreads usually mean there's scum that either started it or are on it. I started a universal gut scumread on a townie when I was mafia once. So yeah feeling even less good about the Cass wagon.

I mean, granted, townies can just all mindmeld on a wolf at once. But I feel like the other possibility makes more sense, if only because I have experience with it.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:25 pm

PSINightmareEmpower wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:17 pm Ugh. Neither of the alternate viable wagons look good to me, but I know U-G isn't popular enough to go through right now. I have to switch, but I don't know to whom.

Jiwon isn't doing anything for me. I'm all right with it, but not personally sold on it. Clearing out the inactives is important though, so maybe I should?

I can't vote Cass in good conscience. I haven't done enough research on them to confidently place a vote. It's just a sheep read I'd do as mafia so I can't vote them until I've done my research, and I don't have time to do research before EoD.

...

...

...Jiwon it is.

[VOTE: JiwonMeganPark] aubergine

There are 2 votes on UG, that's hardly "not popular enough" in my book.

The majority of people have said that they think U-G is town or null at best, while they seem more open to Jiwon or Cass. I'm saying I don't think it'll get past 3 votes.

Ultimate-Gamer wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:50 am
Now for Nooter:
I stand by what I said before, Nooter’s read against PSINE was not the best. It feels like someone taking advantage of a situation and then does it again with Cassowary.... It’s still kinda nullish but I’m starting to feel better about a scum read on Nooter here…

I’m also starting to get VERY tired and can kinda feel my thoughts slipping a bit. I still wanna do Jiwon and Long Con.

But before I do I’d LIKE to get some people’s thoughts.

@chardonnay @PSINightmareEmpower

Mind lending me your thoughts about this Nooter here? Does it feel like "taking advantage" to you?

Sure, I guess? Her reads have felt...disconnected, if that makes sense? Like there isn't a common thread here, she's just doing whatever. I don't know if that makes any sense. It only half makes sense to me. I guess I can see her "taking advantage"? Maybe. I do agree with the notion of her being scum itself, I just haven't quite worked out why. Need an ISO on her.

Ugh. Neither of the alternate viable wagons look good to me, but I know U-G isn't popular enough to go through right now. I have to switch, but I don't know to whom.

Jiwon isn't doing anything for me. I'm all right with it, but not personally sold on it. Clearing out the inactives is important though, so maybe I should?

I can't vote Cass in good conscience. I haven't done enough research on them to confidently place a vote. It's just a sheep read I'd do as mafia so I can't vote them until I've done my research, and I don't have time to do research before EoD.

...

...

...Jiwon it is.

[VOTE: JiwonMeganPark] aubergine

I guess I sort of agree with Neutron's vote on Cass though? Idk. Too many options, not enough coordination.

Kinda silly of me to worry about my post count earlier in the day. 66 is actually quite generous, especially since the Day phases are a lot shorter than on Starmen. I honestly don't think I'll need to worry about it at all. watch as I blow through 48 posts in one hour

Gonna retire for the night, I'll be back tomorrow.

Oh, gotcha. Jack is super mild gut townlean for me, but I will try to do an ISO later. Idk if anyone else sees anything sus in their posting, but I personally don't?

I could get behind Neutron as well.

@Chardonnay I'm just going to assume you meant Jiwon because they're the only other wagon.

Yeah, I don't really see it, mostly because I've seen too many townies do basically the same thing. I suppose I can get behind it, if that's what we want to do, but to me personally they're just null.

All right, binary list I can do.

Strong to moderate town/unwilling to vote:
Alison
Cayvie
Nutella

Mild to super super light townlean/likely won't vote:
Fatmo
DDL
Chardonnay
JoH

Perfectly null/we probably have better options but I could vote:
Dov
Wilgy
Kitsu
Jiwon

Super super light to mild scumlean/would vote pretty easily:
Neutron
LC
Carot
Cass

Moderate to strong scum/100% okay with voting:
U-G

Jack?

Also writing a binary readlist right now.

Back again to update my thoughts.

For the record, I highly doubt the U-G thing will go through today, and I am perfectly fine with moving to another wagon to push a chop through, as long as I think there's a good chance it's on a wolf. However, I'm not super thrilled about the prospect of voting on someone like, say, Cass or LC. While they are currently in my scumlean, it feels like such a Scum!Me thing to do if the wagon is on a townie. I've sheeped other people's reads on the basis of "that argument sounds solid" and "my gut agrees with that" and jumped on the bandwagon just to push a vote through in my past games as scum, and I'm legitimately surprised nobody called me out on it. I simply don't feel comfortable doing something I know for a fact Scum!Me would do. So unless it comes down to the wire and we just *need that flip*, I'm not voting either of those wagons until I come up with my *own* reason for voting.

Sorry U-G! I get that you feel stressed, I felt it too. Hope you can get into the swing of things soon!

Some read updates since a bit has changed since my last readlist:
Most of these are moving people to townlean. I'm glad I have more townreads now.

I gotta say, I'm not super thrilled with the fact that I was being scumread by a lot of people, and now I'm being town/nullread for the most part; not because of my own play, but because my Starmen friends had to come to the rescue. There's nothing inherently wrong with that I suppose, it just makes me feel sad that the read wasn't reversed for my own play but for other people helping me out. Wonder if I would have gotten chopped if I wasn't in this game with my Starmen peeps...?

Unfortunately, the Day ends at a pretty bad time for me. I will be around about 3-ish hours from EoD, but I won't be around right before. I'll try to make my final vote before then, but I won't have time for any ISO-ing on anyone before the Day ends. I will try to do some rereading and ISO-ing during the Night phase and Day 2 though.

Ultimate-Gamer wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:58 pm

chardonnay wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:48 pm

DJ Neutron Star wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:34 pm @chardonnay
can i confirm why you're voting cassowary? you haven't said much immediately about them outside of 'something' feeling off and currently disagreeing with their PSINE read

forcing a read that they weren't really confidant in, (PSINightmare).

Oh shit I just did that huh

Yeah I didn't want my FIRST iso to be a null read so I kinda put a gun to my head and said "Nooter slightly scummy" even though it's closer to null.

Errr...what? This post wasn't even about you, why are you reacting to it?

[VOTE: Ultimate-Gamer] aubergine

To me this reads like U-G was already nervous about his Neutron read and had been thinking about it as he read the thread. His immediate reaction to the words "forcing a read that they weren't really confident in" was "oh shit I just did that" and immediately feels the need to defend himself. It's like he thought for sure someone was going to call him out on it so he felt the need to do it himself preemptively. I could also say that needing a not-nullread is scummy too, but I've that pressure too so I don't think that holds up.

I'm not super confident in this vote right now, but last time I read into a reaction as a scummy train of thought I was totally right (we would have chopped a wolf D1 if enough people had been on board, still salty about that) so I'm inclined to trust my gut here. Might change this later though.

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:16 pm
linki:

Im not sure what to make of you lamp shading your own actions so quickly UG haha. You seem pretty ill at ease rn.

This is leaning me towards a Cassowary exe over a Jiwon one. This is the kind of post mafia makes to shade a townie. It's an indirect way of attacking them ("you seem pretty ill at ease") that is difficult to defend yourself against or pick apart (because the snap response is, "hey, that's just how I felt"), but is also couched in a hedgy way ("I'm not sure what to make of you...") that removes accountability for the read if UG flips town.

This is a post that wants us to narrow our eyes at UG, but without making us think "Cassowary wants us to vote UG". That's scummy.

While I somewhat agree with you here, I'm almost more inclined to read U-G/Chardonnay as w/w. It felt to me like Chard spotted the odd behavior of his scumbuddy and wanted to be the first to call attention to it in the thread for towncred or something, but didn't want to actually commit to bussing. There are two things wrong with this read though. 1. Chard likes to bus a lot, so him doing a half-hearted response to avoid bussing isn't as likely for him as it is for other people, and 2. They do know each other pretty well so I wouldn't be surprised if it was just a "my friend is acting kinda weird" reaction as either alignment.

Wow okay I'm pretty sure I just brought up all possible conclusions here and didn't learn anything from this thought process. Kinda pointless but those are my thoughts.

cayvie wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:18 pm sure. to me it reads like you're a little uncomfortable but you're gonna keep trying because you know that sharing your thoughts on things is how town makes progress. it feels pure, i guess.

also im trying to be encouraging; you seem pretty tentative, and i want you to continue making posts

Seems like an accurate assessment. Thanks for answering!

Honestly the biggest thing I need to to get into the thread and be less tentative is to do an intensive reread of the thread and/or ISO the active players. But midweek is not the time to do that because I'm too busy for that. I'm just holding out until the weekend so I can work on some reading, but I'm not used to such short Days and the weekend will be Day 2 already. So I'm almost afraid I won't be able to vote today since I don't have time to gather adequate information to work with before the Day ends.

cayvie wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:58 pm

PSINightmareEmpower wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:46 pm All righty, I'm back again. Man I wish I had more time to interact with the thread over a long period of time rather than just popping in with a few posts and leaving again...I should have more time on the weekend, which isn't super helpful for Day 1 but maybe I can be more helpful on Day 2.

Think I'll put together a reads list (enclosed below). I haven't reread the thread yet because I don't have time, so sorry if I remember things wrong.

Spoiler: show

Alison--Like I said, I believe her claim. It makes sense to me and I'm not personally seeing it coming from scum. I won't put her locktown though because apparently it isn't out of her wolfrange, but she's definitely strong town.

Carotenoid--As I said before, her tone is still odd to me and my gut is telling me not to trust her. She agrees that her tone is "noticeably different", but she doesn't really explain on that at all? It's a bit confusing. She has mindmelded with me a little bit though, so I wouldn't write it off as her being town, but it could also be a pocketing attempt? If that's the case it does match up with her current townread of me. I'm putting her at a mild scumlean.

Cassowary--Others have brought this up, and I hadn't before, but I agree that something feels off about them. They've just had an odd tone that I'm not vibing with. They could use an ISO which I don't really have time for atm, but I know there's something off there. Mild scumlean as well.

Cayvie--Ugh I can't read her anymore. My initial scumlean was for a reason that has obviously been a mistake, but she's not super townie to me either. I've seen posts that could go either way for her. I'd like to have a stronger lean, but right now she'll be an uncomfortable null.

Chardonnay--I'm actually feeling pretty good about him right now. I've mindmelded with him on more than a few things so far, and I agree with almost all of his takes. I do know that I agreed with a lot of his takes in the last game I played with him (I was civ and he was wolf) so I wouldn't put it past him, but I'm feeling pretty good about him so far. Moderate townlean.

DJ Neutron Star--I'm having a hard time reading her. My gut knee-jerk read would be mafia, but whenever I think that my brain immediately goes "wait no probably town" so I can't decide yet. Super super light scumlean.

Dov--He's had a single post the whole game, just to say "good luck". Normally I would see this as scummy, but I've seen it from town too many times to really pin it down. Would like more content. Null.

DDL--Gut read comes up town, but I'm unfamiliar with him so he could totally be scum. I so need to do an ISO on him, but until that happens it'll be a mild townlean.

DrWilgy--I really don't know. I can't pin anything down yet. They're a perfectly solid null at the moment. I'll need more content to decide.

Fatmo--One post I think? Similar to Dov, they just sort of dropped in with a "sup" and disappeared. Again, I would normally see this as scummy if not for the townies who also do this. Null.

JackofHearts2005--I'm sure they're perfectly capable of their current play as scum, but my gut says town. I haven't seen enough to quantify a legitimate read, so I'll leave it as a mild townlean.

JiwonMeganPark--I'm honestly not seeing too much scummy about them? They kinda just read like a jokey player. I don't mind the wagon, but I'm not sure it's the absolute best option right now.

KitsuShel--No posts.

Long Con--I've got a gut scumread here but no real reason to justify it. He could really go either way. Mild scumlean.

Nutella--She reads town to me, but I get the feeling she's a good enough player to pull this off as mafia. I haven't really had any mindmelds with her yet either, so I'll have to put her as null.

Ultimate-Gamer--Null.

Sorry the readlist is full of "well I feel this but it could be this" and my gutreads, but as I haven't had time to ISO anyone and there isn't anything standing out to me yet, this is the best I can muster. I'm all right joining most of the wagons (as in, none of them are "wait no that person has got to be town" for me) but I don't want to place down a vote until I've had the chance to do at least a bit more work.

i really like this post fwiw

Why? What about it do you like? It's just a readlist full of gutreads. Want to get specific for me and tell me what specifically you like about it? (For the record, the answer may help me read you.)

All righty, I'm back again. Man I wish I had more time to interact with the thread over a long period of time rather than just popping in with a few posts and leaving again...I should have more time on the weekend, which isn't super helpful for Day 1 but maybe I can be more helpful on Day 2.

Think I'll put together a reads list (enclosed below). I haven't reread the thread yet because I don't have time, so sorry if I remember things wrong.
Sorry the readlist is full of "well I feel this but it could be this" and my gutreads, but as I haven't had time to ISO anyone and there isn't anything standing out to me yet, this is the best I can muster. I'm all right joining most of the wagons (as in, none of them are "wait no that person has got to be town" for me) but I don't want to place down a vote until I've had the chance to do at least a bit more work.

Ugh I was going to write a post but I have to go. Sorry, I'll be back to finish it later.

Cayvie, what do you think of Alison's claim? Have you actually weighed in on it yet? (Sorry if you have and I missed it.) You keep bringing up people being on a team/not on a team with Alison, so it doesn't sound like she's a townlean to you.

Also sorry for consistently spelling you're username wrong

I have a gut-townread of DDL, and so far it still looks good? I have been skimming a tad though so when I have more time/less other things on my mind I might ISO his posts. The TMI-Alison point was a good one, but it sounds like DDL has resolved that? So yeah still feels mildly townie to me.

Gut-scumreading Carot right now, but I think it's probably just because of her light-hearted, jokey tone she's taken on for a lot of this game. I'm unfamiliar with this tone of hers because she didn't do it in the Starmen game I played with her (where she was town) but I think I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and say that she's more comfortable on this site. Also not sure what to think about her saying I'm town, because on the one hand I'm a pretty easy push for scum to jump on (and therefore not jumping on would be townie), but on the other hand she could just be buddying me. I will keep an eye out and see if I can place it.

I have a lot of people who I think "oh yeah they're town" followed immediately by "oh wait they're probably scum" which is a weird different version of a nullread. I was going to mention my read of them here but then I couldn't decide which one I'd be putting them down as. These would be people like Neutron, Cassowary, and Long Con by the way.

Side note, but what exactly does pocketing mean? I think it's like buddying? I have a sort-of sense of what it means, but a direct explanation might be helpful.

PPE: Hi Chardonnay!

Screwed up one of the quotes, oops

Should also point out that I'm just kinda floundering through the game at this point. I still need to find my footing in the game, and I figure I can probably do that with a good, strong scumread. (That's probably the reason for the hastily cobbled-together read of Cavyie btw.) Just gotta find one first. I should have more confident reads towards the middle of D1, when more people start talking and interacting and stuff.

All right guys, I'm back! Don't worry, I'm not bogged down by the posting limit, just a tad busy today. Gonna try to respond to people.

nutella wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:10 pm[snipping this out because it's super long with it in but leaving the quote box in for context]

cool, nice to meet you!! your style sounds kinda similar to mine except it seems you write longer posts lol[/quote]

Haha, yeah, I'm a wallposter

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:24 pm PSI seems too eager to please. I don't get why they're doubting the cayvie read because like two other people townread cayvie. I don't read them as being that easily swayed in general. I'd be happy with a push there.

[snip]

This is literally just because my conviction was never strong at all in the first place. It's still too early in the game for me to be making proper scumreads, but I feel really uncomfortable when I don't have a scumread yet, so I just grabbed at the first thing I could think of. If other people make a read that seems better because either multiple people agree with it, or the one or two people who make the read's logic makes sense to me, I'll just sort of sheep it and may flip-flop around a bit until I land on something that feels better. When multiple people thought of Cavyie as town, I was just like "well I'm probably wrong so I'll see how Cavyie looks through the lens of town".

While I was writing this, I also realized that this is something I did in my last game where I was town: I had this perception of U-G that he and I have the same playstyle but he's better than me, so for much of the first Day I basically sheeped his reads when we disagreed on something because I felt like if we had differing views on something, then he was automatically right since he has more experience. I realized later in the game that it somewhat hindered me and there were a few reads that were left over that had no business being there and I had to clear them out. I realized that we both had probably equally good reads after the game ended. The point of all this is that I just realized I'm sort of doing the same thing here, because I have a perception that you all are better than me just because you're more experienced, so if we have differing reads than I should just abandon mine and go for yours since you're probably right. Obviously this is a fallacy, so I'll try to be wary of doing this in the future.

cayvie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:08 pm

nutella wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:12 pm

cayvie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:00 pm

PSINightmareEmpower wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:57 pm As an outside eye, I can confirm that Alison was not being condescending,

mild w/w ping for PSI/Alison here

hmmm

sounded like distancing to me ("as an outside eye").

i'm kinda eh on my post now tho tbh.

Actually what I'd meant by this was that I was trying to be an impartial and objective third-party in reading the sequence of events, and that was the conclusion I came to. I figured my conclusion would differ from yours because you, being on the defensive in the situation, would potentially read the tone differently from how others would. (I know I sometimes read tone differently from how others would when I'm the one being pressured.)

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:11 pm Actually now that you mention it.

PSINightmareEmpower wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:17 pm I'll be honest, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'I don't know why you think this so you must be wrong'? You lost me there. I mean, I understand you take issue with the read, and it's about my weird intuition thing, but I don't really understand what specifically you mean?

To be fair though, I don't really read the post the same way I did when I first wrote that. Sometimes I think I should wait a bit before giving thoughts on a post because I'll read it differently at different times. I'm also really reaching for a scumread here because I always feel weird when I don't have a single scumread at a given time; but it's also probably still too early to have a proper scumread so maybe I should just be patient.

Definitely waffling on the Cavyie read though, for no other reason than that almost everyone else is townreading her so it's making me doubt myself. Might have to move her back up to null until further notice.

3/33

Spoiler: show

I'll be honest

if you need to point that out maybe you aren't being honest

I'm not entirely sure - the entirely feels like

I mean, I understand... but...

Holy waffling, Batman

but I don't really understand what specifically you mean?

There is an adverb tell in this forum. I'm burrowing it. ADVERBS!

To be fair, though

"To be fair" is another sentence that tries to ease the reader into what they are going to say and "though" reinforces that.

it's also probably still too early to have a proper scumread so maybe I should just be patient.

Full of flowery language, declaration of not scumreading, but isn't sure of that either.

Might have to move her back up to null

null is noncommital

until further notice.

Until someone makes a better case so I can jump back, ofc.

Yeah I totes see it.

I was kind of feeling bad about cass before (and yes, I just made that nickname and I didn't know her before) and now she's a high town read imo.

Yeah like Neutron said this is legitimately just how I type all the time. I actually say some variation of "honestly" irl too like all the time so those points are NAI. Obviously (as in, scum would say this too) "until further notice" means until I see a reason to drop her back to scum. I'm not sure what your point on "null" is, do *you* have all of the active players sorted into town or scum yet? It's kinda too early for me to sort everyone.

DJ Neutron Star wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:14 pm [snipping the quote pyramid to save space]

you think Alison's posts aren't condescending — cayvie does, so that makes cayvie the one who's incorrect and over defensive

literally anyone can say that about any take esp. if they feel required to post a scumread for some reason

and again, the thing about assuming cayvie is angry about being voted in order to make that post still sticks out, bc i'm pretty sure cayvie addressed in the post is specifically not the reason she was annoyed at Alison here, and it was bc she has Feelings about the way Alison was playing

also, who specifically is 'everyone else' in this situation?

I have this perception that the person on the defensive would read things in a different manner than everyone else would. I guess I thought the person on the defensive's read would be objectively wrong compared to everyone else's. That's how it seems to work out in my experience at least. It's probably not correct though.

You're right, I read the post entirely as though she meant she was annoyed about the vote. Now that I'm rereading it though, I think it does make more sense as your interpretation which is probably correct.

Everyone else is everyone else who weighed in on Cavyie's alignment. I'm pretty sure after Alison changed her read I was the only person to list Cavyie as scumlean.

DJ Neutron Star wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:43 pm

PSINightmareEmpower wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:57 pm

cayvie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:10 pm you're the one who said there was likely to be more vote manipulation *shrug*

i fundamentally disagree with your premise that talking about mechanics/roles is antitown. *especially* in a role madness style game.

and i am irritated by your condescension toward me out of the gate. i knew that was going to be an issue coming into this game, so i'm trying to avoid tunneling you for it. but i would at least appreciate it if you toned it down a bit.

I am...not fond of this response. The salt in this reply is very high, and it reads like Cavyie just got overly defensive but also kinda tried to shrug it off. I don't know, voting a player is a completely normal thing to do, and accusing Alison of condescension and asking her to tone it down is a tad unreasonable. As an outside eye, I can confirm that Alison was not being condescending, and I'm seeing Cavyie as just being more defensive than they need to be about this. That's my hot take on it anyway. So I will put them in mild scumlean for now, but will save voting for later.

speaking of, i'm not fond of PSINightmare leaning into the whole 'I don't know why you think this so you must be wrong' thing as a point against cayvie here

that's a hilariously easy thing to claim without substantiating, and besides cayvie being salty over being voted early seems like a leap in logic?

The quoted post itself would indicate cayvie is annoyed over personality clash here more than anything

I'll be honest, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'I don't know why you think this so you must be wrong'? You lost me there. I mean, I understand you take issue with the read, and it's about my weird intuition thing, but I don't really understand what specifically you mean?

To be fair though, I don't really read the post the same way I did when I first wrote that. Sometimes I think I should wait a bit before giving thoughts on a post because I'll read it differently at different times. I'm also really reaching for a scumread here because I always feel weird when I don't have a single scumread at a given time; but it's also probably still too early to have a proper scumread so maybe I should just be patient.

Definitely waffling on the Cavyie read though, for no other reason than that almost everyone else is townreading her so it's making me doubt myself. Might have to move her back up to null until further notice.

3/33

I accidentally deleted this post and now I'm mad but I'm going to rewrite it anyway.

I'm inclined to believe Alison's claim for now. It makes sense (not entirely but you know what I mean), and I'm sure we'll find out at some point in the game whether it's true or not. I don't think she'd lie about something like that, because not only is it a super convoluted role to come up with/fakeclaim, it also gets more dubious the longer the game goes on with nothing she said would happen happening. A wolf making that fakeclaim right off the bat just simply doesn't make sense to me. I also agree with her assessment that wolves would never be given this role. It's straight up negative-utility and I simply can't see wolves getting a role like that. There is a possibility she's a wolf with a different vote-altering role that she altered to fakeclaim this, but I highly doubt it.

That was a really roundabout way of saying Alison is probably just locktown until F5 or something.

Re Cavyie: I don't think discussing mechanics is anti-town, and I think it can be helpful in certain situations, especially at the beginning of the game when we don't have a lot of reads yet (although lingering in the mechanics discussion for too long does bog down the game and give a place for wolves to hide without having to do much AI stuff so I never want to stay in that phase for very long). There are definitely ways of bringing up mechanics discussion that are scummy or anti-town, but I don't think this instance is one of them. I also don't think it encourages players to give away info about themselves. So I think what Cavyie did is NAI. However:

cayvie wrote: ↑Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:10 pm you're the one who said there was likely to be more vote manipulation *shrug*

i fundamentally disagree with your premise that talking about mechanics/roles is antitown. *especially* in a role madness style game.

and i am irritated by your condescension toward me out of the gate. i knew that was going to be an issue coming into this game, so i'm trying to avoid tunneling you for it. but i would at least appreciate it if you toned it down a bit.

I am...not fond of this response. The salt in this reply is very high, and it reads like Cavyie just got overly defensive but also kinda tried to shrug it off. I don't know, voting a player is a completely normal thing to do, and accusing Alison of condescension and asking her to tone it down is a tad unreasonable. As an outside eye, I can confirm that Alison was not being condescending, and I'm seeing Cavyie as just being more defensive than they need to be about this. That's my hot take on it anyway. So I will put them in mild scumlean for now, but will save voting for later.

(Side not but Cavyie what are your preferred pronouns? You don't have any in your side column and I don't want to misgender you.)

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