The Syndicate

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:05 pm

Long Con wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:04 pm

Esooa wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:47 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:43 pm addendum: you seem to take issue with me not being comfortable outing a townlean on you in the early game but then outing a townlean on you after the "test" - this is because my early townlean on you was mostly "tone/town!sloonei vibes" - the type of vague, uncharacteristic read that contains generic reasoning that any scum on auto-pilot would be able to out. it felt like a better idea to me to wait until i became more sure of your alignment and also to wait until i could articulate my townread on you better before i decided to publicly state it. your reaction to the "test" gave me the confidence to do exactly that

I liked Jess's post but this feels like a slip sagfdgldfasghkdfg

How is it a slip? I don't get the angle here.

she's admitting that her own read is something a scum would say, is the idea

BoKnows wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:57 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:46 pm boknows, a couple of things:

-can you explain your townread on me?

-can you explain your scumread on poison?

-can you explain your scumread on long con?

-how did you get enough confidence to make an entire reads list when your solving up until this point has been non-existent? why didn't you post any notes or thoughts inbetween you fillering and you outing that list of reads?

Yeah sure

Yourself: I like the questions you've been asking all game long. They aren't just wall questions that I would post if I'm a wolf but actually meaningful questions that can help us solve the game.
Poison: Very passive game from poison (I know the irony). I feel that there is no urgency to their game. It seems like Poison is just trying to post enough to not be labelled as a slacker but not going into depth in their posts.
Long: Long is giving me "drive-by" wolf vibes. They pop in make a quick comment, agree with a player and leave. LongCon isn't in a rush to make a rush difference it seems like.

I just made the list cause why not. I'm already sussed so what do I have to lose.

Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:07 pm

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:00 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:08 pm

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:57 pm All that talk of trying extra hard huh.

What is your mafia experience? What sort of things will you be looking for on Day 1?

I don’t think these players are wolfbros. Like this is either buddying or a legit question.

Jack my boy I ask that question to everyone the first time I see them.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:45 pm Hey @Esooa wanna talk about Jack? I'm suddenly liking him a lot and don't know if I'm crazy.

Esooa wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:43 pm

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:40 pm Alison serious enough early and now they’re probably just town.

??? read

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:40 pm Alison serious enough early and now they’re probably just town.

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:38 pm

BoKnows wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:33 pm

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:31 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:27 pm

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:19 pm BK's a better option IMO

I think jack is more likely a hit

If they're both scum, we should hi-five later

No high fives... I know at least one of us is town. That one person is me! I wouldn't lie to your face like this falcon

Hmmmmm...wouldn't you? That's a lie right there!

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:02 pm

Esooa wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:57 pm I wanna know Jess's current read on me, 90% for ego reasons

you are townier than i've ever seen you before. i have no idea what to make of that

i generally like your defense of me - the only thing that bothered me is how you kinda tried to have it both ways in reaction to sloonei's wallpost on me - it felt like you echo'd the sentiment of "yeah, maybe SPF is mafia" and "SPF shouldn't be pushed on" at the exact same time

but i do think that knowing that i tend to perform poorly under pressure (as evidenced by last night lol) and using that as reasoning to ask people to back off of me is a pretty towny thing for you to do in general

i can feel that there is something ~distinct~ about your approach in this game that is different from how i've seen you play any game before - and gth, i think that the fluidity of your playstyle in this game is more likely to come from esooa!town than it is esooa!scum - especially since i think esooa!scum would have a mindset that is slightly more rigid and maybe even afraid of changing things up too much

so yeah, i townlean you, with the caveat that i'm wondering if the reason you seem so towny to me is because you're playing with the conscious intent to get people to townread you

Esooa wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:47 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:43 pm the type of vague, uncharacteristic read that contains generic reasoning that any scum on auto-pilot would be able to out.

I liked Jess's post but this feels like a slip sagfdgldfasghkdfg

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:47 pm

Esooa wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:43 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:39 pm

Esooa wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:38 pm I kinda feel like, based on thread state rn, if Jess is scum a lot of her partners are low posters

Do we know how many mafia there are btw?

I think I agree with this, if she had active partners they'd be simping for her and her biggest defenders are on "this is mostly NAI and I'm bored of it"

not just that but the only person actually pushing someone who isn't Jess is Dom, who *probably* isn't scum with Jess, lol. So, I don't think any scum is pushing outside of Jess

I'm pushing outside of SPF. You trust me?

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:43 pm addendum: you seem to take issue with me not being comfortable outing a townlean on you in the early game but then outing a townlean on you after the "test" - this is because my early townlean on you was mostly "tone/town!sloonei vibes" - the type of vague, uncharacteristic read that contains generic reasoning that any scum on auto-pilot would be able to out. it felt like a better idea to me to wait until i became more sure of your alignment and also to wait until i could articulate my townread on you better before i decided to publicly state it. your reaction to the "test" gave me the confidence to do exactly that

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:38 pm Esooa you're a lot less aggressive than usual. Why?

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:39 pm

Esooa wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:38 pm I kinda feel like, based on thread state rn, if Jess is scum a lot of her partners are low posters

Do we know how many mafia there are btw?

I think I agree with this, if she had active partners they'd be simping for her and her biggest defenders are on "this is mostly NAI and I'm bored of it"

Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:29 pm Dom still town. TSP town. Alison probably town.

Dom wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:27 pm

Esooa wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:26 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:18 pm

Esooa wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:33 pm

Dom wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:00 pm @Sloonei

Question for you.

spf brought Alison up to you as someone you should suspect. She had two posts at the time.

C4 lays into Alison the second she shows up again.

What's up with that?

this is the EXACT BEAT FOR BEAT kind of post a wolf egging on a town to push town makes

He brings up two things with tenuous at best connections, ignores the context of them, and doesn't draw his own conclusions, but gives leading questions for someone else to make these conclusions for him

C4 pushing Alison wasn't based on a case he made, agreed with, or any such thing, it was based on Alisons interactions with him. Spf mentioning Alison doesn't really matter and she just wanted to talk about some of the posts Alison made

The only possible wolfy connection here is that these two are teamed and both decided to push Alison pre-game for ??? reasons

Which makes no sense and doesn't fit with the fact C4's push was reactive, not something he came out with himself

my main problem with this is that it's also how tunneled town eggs on other players to push their pet read

Disagree. The questions he asks feel to me like they're obviously leading, but he doesn't give any actual thought on it himself. Like literally zero.

I literally said that I think the lack of specificity on C4's part in his response was suspicious. I laid into this. I didn't ask anyone else to. You are just fabricating things because you don't' like how I hard I went after someone you like. Sorry not sorry.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:18 pm

Esooa wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:33 pm

Dom wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:00 pm @Sloonei

Question for you.

spf brought Alison up to you as someone you should suspect. She had two posts at the time.

C4 lays into Alison the second she shows up again.

What's up with that?

this is the EXACT BEAT FOR BEAT kind of post a wolf egging on a town to push town makes

He brings up two things with tenuous at best connections, ignores the context of them, and doesn't draw his own conclusions, but gives leading questions for someone else to make these conclusions for him

C4 pushing Alison wasn't based on a case he made, agreed with, or any such thing, it was based on Alisons interactions with him. Spf mentioning Alison doesn't really matter and she just wanted to talk about some of the posts Alison made

The only possible wolfy connection here is that these two are teamed and both decided to push Alison pre-game for ??? reasons

Which makes no sense and doesn't fit with the fact C4's push was reactive, not something he came out with himself

my main problem with this is that it's also how tunneled town eggs on other players to push their pet read

Dom wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:53 pm

Esooa wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:47 pm

Dom wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:45 pm

Esooa wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:38 pm I feel like Dom has been pushing a lot of people for reasons I haven't really liked, and that post was just such a stretch I'm very hard pressed to believe he isn't fishing for pushes

You haven't liked my reasons because you-- in your words-- don't want the person you're dating to be bad. Am I mistaken about that?

I recognized the merit of slooneis post perfectly well I'm pretty sure

...and I agree with Sloonei, but take it one step further that I don't like her responses to pressure on this issue. I found her stated objective and her behavior to be incongruous.

Dom wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:45 pm

Esooa wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:38 pm I feel like Dom has been pushing a lot of people for reasons I haven't really liked, and that post was just such a stretch I'm very hard pressed to believe he isn't fishing for pushes

You haven't liked my reasons because you-- in your words-- don't want the person you're dating to be bad. Am I mistaken about that?

Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:40 pm

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:40 pm c4e5g3d5 Needs a nickname. I’m never gonna remember that.

Foresight

Esooa wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:33 pm

Dom wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:00 pm @Sloonei

Question for you.

spf brought Alison up to you as someone you should suspect. She had two posts at the time.

C4 lays into Alison the second she shows up again.

What's up with that?

this is the EXACT BEAT FOR BEAT kind of post a wolf egging on a town to push town makes

He brings up two things with tenuous at best connections, ignores the context of them, and doesn't draw his own conclusions, but gives leading questions for someone else to make these conclusions for him

C4 pushing Alison wasn't based on a case he made, agreed with, or any such thing, it was based on Alisons interactions with him. Spf mentioning Alison doesn't really matter and she just wanted to talk about some of the posts Alison made

The only possible wolfy connection here is that these two are teamed and both decided to push Alison pre-game for ??? reasons

Which makes no sense and doesn't fit with the fact C4's push was reactive, not something he came out with himself

Dom wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:00 pm @Sloonei

Question for you.

spf brought Alison up to you as someone you should suspect. She had two posts at the time.

C4 lays into Alison the second she shows up again.

What's up with that?

KZA wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:28 pm

Esooa wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:22 pm

KZA wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:21 pm BK is prolly just Mafia guys, he has no idea how to get in to the thread

yeh

what do you think of Dom and chopchop?

ChopChop can just be Mafia too

Dom pinged me as good off their entrance so I guess that's still where I'm at

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:25 pm

Esooa wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:22 pm

KZA wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:21 pm BK is prolly just Mafia guys, he has no idea how to get in to the thread

yeh

what do you think of Dom and chopchop?

w
v

KZA wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:21 pm BK is prolly just Mafia guys, he has no idea how to get in to the thread

Esooa wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:20 pm @Sloonei I think your points make sense and I like them

I wanna ask about something else now though which is, I'd rather move on from this at this point (which maybe is a bit selfish because I understand your point and don't need to talk about it more while others might) though, because I think it'd be better in the case spf is town to not push it for the next 28 hours we have, and still useful if she's mafia anyway

This is me saying I think SPF could be mafia but I also want to find her town, and if you wanna do the same our way to do that right now is drop the push until tonight imo

Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:08 pm I continue to not see town SPF. I am continuing to draw out my reasons for suspecting her. I just feel like something isn't right, and I'll try to highlight that is whenever I spot it. Here's one example that stands out as I look back:

Spoiler: show

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:52 pm

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:42 pm

Sloonei wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:37 pm

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:35 pm

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:33 pm

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:32 pm spf the thread is dead an hour and a half in, this isn't the time to play coy.

there's 26 people here - i'm definitely not concerned about the thread being dead. and i feel like being coy right now :P

The fact should make you even more concerned. We have 26 slots to sort, chop chop.

You may be feeling a bit of extra urgency if these phases are shorter than you're used to. This is a relatively slow start, but I'm not concerned about the pace. It's the weekend, we have four active games on this site right now, lots of people just don't seem to be here right now. They'll show up.

I couldn't care less about the people that aren't here. Someone is here and is actively choosing to keep the game slow.

i would argue that my choice to not immediately share my two early townleans is provoking more conversation than it would if i had chosen to share them immediately

i just dont feel a sense of urgency about this game, in all honesty. the majority of people not posting on a sunday does not concern me - there's still a lot of time

On principle I like the "I have x town reads, but I'm not saying who they are" play. I condone and support it. I will never ever suspect spf strictly for doing that.

But I do suspect her for this response when pressured. The point of laying bait like that is to draw out reactions. I do not feel like spf did that adequately. I do not feel like she did it at all, really. As soon as somebody (c4) responded to it, spf's response turned defensive rather than offensive. And this response is primed and ready for an aggressive pushback from a civilian SPF: c4 hurls generic suspicion at her. She can simply ask him why this tactic bothers him. She can ask him to guess the town reads. She can do any number of things to goad this discussion further along a constructive path. Instead she simply defends her choice to introduce her reads the way that she did. There is nothing constructive in that. The play ends there without getting off the ground.

Then in the aftermath she said a few more things related to this episode that did not sit well with me:

Spoiler: show

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:03 pm two primary reasons:

1. cloaking my townreads in ambiguity almost always gets interesting and telling interactions out of people. in this case, i think that foresight's intense amount of stress that only grew larger as i refused to directly answer his question is likely to come from a town indicative place. his irritation felt completely authentic- i honestly don't think that foresight would care that much at all if he was playing from a scum mindset

2. one of my early townleans was on you, but i felt uncomfortable outing that early into the game for a number of reasons. (partially out of the vanity of not wanting to be wrong). the other was on foresight

I take issue with both points in this post.
1. As I said above, it felt like spf cut off the the flow of potential "interesting and telling interactions" almost immediately. I don't buy that spf was satisfied with the reactions she had gotten to that point as the fruits of her grand experiment. More on this later.
2. She felt uncomfortable outing a town read on me early in the game for a number of reasons. But she is perfectly comfortable doing it here. We've already talked a little about this. I just don't really buy this justification. I don't think spf was the least bit worried about outting a town read on me too early.

Spoiler: show

staypositivefriend wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:06 am @Sloonei and @Dom -

i had early townleans on sloonei and foresight in the early game. i know that sloonei is a strong player regardless of his alignment, and i was reluctant to out an early townread on him for a number of reasons (not wanting to be wrong, feeling like outing a tr on a player like sloonei that i could not fully substantiate would draw heat on me). i had an early townlean on foresight as well, but since both of my townleans more or less boiled down to: "tone", it seemed smarter to me to imply that i had townreads without saying the specific names. this almost always get interesting and alignment-indicative reactions, like i've gone over several times in my ISO already

my choice to not out reads got some immediate and strong reactions - sloonei and foresight (ironically, my two townleans at the time) aggressively interrogated me about it, and foresight showed some sincere annoyance/anger at my refusal to name the specific names. both of these reactions strengthened the reads that i already had - i didn't think that foresight would carry a high level of internal frustration about me not outing my reads if he was playing from a scum mindset, and sloonei's questioning toward me was direct and aggressive while still carrying a broader depth of thought that i heavily associate with his towngame

those compounding factors (along w/the fact that foresight seemed genuinely annoyed) made me decide to bite the bullets and name the names. it was not intended to be a game-long reaction test that would get me a read on EVERY player here, but it helped me get a more confident townread on the two townleans i already had

i want this post to be a reference for any lingering questions you have about my early reads - i don't want to get caught up in defending myself against points that i've already expanded on, because my scumhunting will probably suffer as a result

Here's why I struggle to accept that spf was satisfied with the results of her reaction test: the only people who had reacted to it were the two people she claims to have been town-reading in the first place. If I were town and in spf's shoes here, this wouldn't be even a remotely satisfying result. I'd want more people to chime in before I deem the reaction test a success. I would not want to run a reaction test early in the game just for the purpose of solidifying my two early town reads. If I did, I would not be holding it up as a productive experience. I also would not be saying it has resulted in a lot of valuable or productive dialogue if the dialogue was just blanket suspicion against me. That can become valuable dialogue, but you need to work to do something with it. I do not see spf doing that.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:21 pm

Esooa wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:19 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:18 pm [VOTE: sloonei] aubergine is mafia

do you think that post I quoted just before was scummy?

He's just mafia.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:18 pm [VOTE: sloonei] aubergine is mafia

Dom wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:00 pm @Sloonei

Question for you.

spf brought Alison up to you as someone you should suspect. She had two posts at the time.

C4 lays into Alison the second she shows up again.

What's up with that?

Sloonei wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:09 pm Dom is town. Long Con is town. I am submitting a formal request to have the votes against them removed.

Dom wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:07 pm It's pretty clear what I mean by what I posted @Esooa, but you can feign ignorance if you'd like!

Dom wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:00 pm @Sloonei

Question for you.

spf brought Alison up to you as someone you should suspect. She had two posts at the time.

C4 lays into Alison the second she shows up again.

What's up with that?

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:28 pm

Esooa wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:21 pm

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:15 pm @Esooa, if you're still here, tell me if it's valid or not to scumread someone for saying "relaxation is towny".

idk, I think it can be, cause like I said before, it's a bit weird you town read me for that post specifically, when imo there's probably a lot more reasons to town read me with a more solid basis

So I'm thinking on whether if you're a wolf you would just use those better reasons, and so doing it is towny cause it's something that specifically stood out to you worth noting

Or whether if you're a wolf you'd bring that up to sound insightful like Alison said

Not sure on it, I can see it though, but I think you're probably town atm

You answered nothing. I say "relaxation is towny". Someone says "saying that is scummy because it's fundamentally wrong". Do you call BS?

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:15 pm @Esooa, if you're still here, tell me if it's valid or not to scumread someone for saying "relaxation is towny".

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:11 pm

Esooa wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:09 pm

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:09 pm

Esooa wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:07 pm

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:04 pm

Esooa wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:00 pm also, c4, you replied to something earlier affirming spfs meta read on me
can you explain the meta you have on me a little?

My experience with you was one scum game where you were pure af but also had an absurd amount of agenda, and one town game where you had good reads. Apparently that was your first scum game so it might not hold as well anymore, but it seemed like an accurate meta read.

arhbjursfgy yeah I remember pushing you and holy flare that game hard and neither of you thought I was scum for it

My readlists and fearkill would beg to differ.

did you? Idr

Lol all three of you were on me that game and nobody would listen to me saying that all the wolves were on one wagon.

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:09 pm

Esooa wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:07 pm

c4e5g3d5 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:04 pm

Esooa wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:00 pm also, c4, you replied to something earlier affirming spfs meta read on me
can you explain the meta you have on me a little?

My experience with you was one scum game where you were pure af but also had an absurd amount of agenda, and one town game where you had good reads. Apparently that was your first scum game so it might not hold as well anymore, but it seemed like an accurate meta read.

arhbjursfgy yeah I remember pushing you and holy flare that game hard and neither of you thought I was scum for it

My readlists and fearkill would beg to differ.