The Syndicate

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:18 am when seanzie wakes up i expect an apology tbh

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:48 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:27 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:23 am tbh if alison is mafia like... it's just wilgy lol

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

@MacDougall this is going on. Thoughts?

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:48 am I've given you page after page explaining my logic as extensively as humanly possible. If you want to talk, be extremely clear, specific and precise about what it is you want. I've had enough with you throwing vague nonsense at me and pretending it means something and I am scum for not responding to it enough. If you want a fair exchange from me so we can talk, then define it. Tell me what a fair exchange is, and what you want from me. No more "you haven't reflected enough", "you haven't considered the differences", etc. Be specific.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:27 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:23 am tbh if alison is mafia like... it's just wilgy lol

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:41 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:39 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:32 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:27 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:23 am tbh if alison is mafia like... it's just wilgy lol

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

What are the alleged differences in my case on Fext before and after Mac showed up to the thread? Why are those differences relevant?

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:41 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:39 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:32 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:27 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:23 am tbh if alison is mafia like... it's just wilgy lol

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

What are the alleged differences in my case on Fext before and after Mac showed up to the thread? Why are those differences relevant?

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:29 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:27 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:23 am tbh if alison is mafia like... it's just wilgy lol

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

I'm not fucking mafia God damn it

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:32 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:27 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:23 am tbh if alison is mafia like... it's just wilgy lol

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:23 am tbh if alison is mafia like... it's just wilgy lol

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:15 am

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:43 pm

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:29 am It's a matter of how people think, really

If you're gathering early votes as mafia in a game with no PRs in particular I'm sure the very last thing you want is to avoid giving people a fact that may help to lower their suspicion of you. Ergo, I would have found NAA not doing that to have been quite towny.

Basically, it's not a matter of me thinking he'd not have an explanation for why he voted me, but instead just the fact that if he chose to essentially redirect pressure on himself into positive force elsewhere without including a semi-relevant fact in his defense that doesn't actually do anything to help determine anyone's alignment, it would be indicative to me of a focus on solving over self-defense at a time when that would conventionally be completely unnecessary to go out of your way to project.

Considering he did not, and so I have not made any definitive statements on his alignment, I'm confused what you're all up in arms about - even if you disagree with my logic there, I'm not using it to make any actual reads in this game at the moment lol

So you're saying that NAA is town for not defending himself when he could have, because as town he'd care more about solving than defending himself, and as scum he wouldn't care about solving and would only care about defending himself. Except that's a false dichotomy, because as town he could easily go "Well, I voted Mac first, but if you wanna know why I voted Fext, here's why: blah blah".

I'm "up in arms" about your logic because I think it doesn't make sense. You were presenting it as part of your thought process, a conditional you were using to evaluate NAA's alignment. If your thought process/conditional isn't coherent, then I'm inclined to think it was never part of a genuine solving process and was just something you made up to look like you were trying to solve NAA.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:48 pm

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:07 pm no wait it clearly is and I'm dumb for thinking you didn't think it was bs aren't I

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:09 pm putting that ploy aside

if it helps you any NAA I am in fact town

What the fuck does this mean? What is the "ploy" referenced?

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:01 pm

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:33 pm also it's not a nitpick if you're pushing me because "regardless of whether creature is scum or town, you reading him in your townier group is always malicious" to call that out as being gross

he can either be one or the other and you choosing to always ascribe that to pointing towards me being evil is senseless at best and outright malicious itself at worst

[VOTE: Fext] aubergine

This is nonsense. If you have an incoherent or illogical read on someone, that is suspicious behavior regardless of the alignment of the person you were reading.

It is upon reading this series of posts that a wolf Mac would think "I should just defend Fext for towncred, Alison will clearly do my job for me".

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:11 am i sit here for 5 hours trying to reason with you and every time i explain the reality of the situation you just ignore it and then find something new or worse just continue to say the same shit that i already explained

meanwhile creature coasting.

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:10 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:07 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:58 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:55 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:52 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:50 am Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.

do you think I'm town still?

I am starting to think you are mafia. You have been engaging in bad faith, claiming there's holes in my logic, and that Mac did something at a certain date, when I look back at the posts and he only townread Fext after I cased Fext. I've been going back and forth with you on this for dozens of posts and you haven't engaged with my logic, while accusing me of not engaging with yours (when I have).

What is the hole in logic? you made posts about Fext before Fext had eyes on him. I even made a snide post towards you asking you if Fext was the D1 miselim because I thought your treatment of Fext was kinda sus. Do you want to bring that up? we can?

"he only townread Fext after I cased Fext"... after you cased him the first or second time? Did his views change the second time you cased Fext? (because his weird read-change but not vote-change happened between the first and second)

I think Mac would have hard defended (as in moved his vote off Fext and voted the counterwagon) Fext if Mac was wolf. The reason I think he would do this is that he saw me tunnelling Fext. If Mac was a wolf, he would have sat back, defended Fext, and counted on me to do the dirty work of burying Fext.

What part of this argument is full of holes/categorically false/whatever you want to call it?

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:07 am i have decided seanzie is in fact mafia with creature

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:07 am i have decided seanzie is in fact mafia with creature

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:58 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:55 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:52 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:50 am Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.

do you think I'm town still?

I am starting to think you are mafia. You have been engaging in bad faith, claiming there's holes in my logic, and that Mac did something at a certain date, when I look back at the posts and he only townread Fext after I cased Fext. I've been going back and forth with you on this for dozens of posts and you haven't engaged with my logic, while accusing me of not engaging with yours (when I have).

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:57 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:56 am I'm still waiting for:

1) Evidence that Fext was genuinely townie D1. You didn't think he was back then, yourself, but apparently he was obvious?

2) The refutation of my logic that you claim has a lot of holes in it.

hey yehhhhhh whats all this about

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:56 am I'm still waiting for:

1) Evidence that Fext was genuinely townie D1. You didn't think he was back then, yourself, but apparently he was obvious?

2) The refutation of my logic that you claim has a lot of holes in it.

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:52 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:50 am Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:51 am that's a pretty apt way to describe how you are treating me right now my guy

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:42 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:38 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:34 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:32 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:30 am Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Why is it categorically false?

YOur order of events. What exactly did you originally "hop" on to?

The sequence of events, as I remember it, happened this way.

1) I express generalized suspicion of both Fext and LC for the way they have been posting.
2) You think that Fext has scumslipped.
3) I strengthen my suspicion of Fext, independently, for poor responses to my pressure, and think your scumslip theory is plausible besides. I vote Fext.

If I am town then I have done 3) as a genuine belief and fully intend to tunnel Fext into the ground. If I am mafia then I am doing it because I am a wolf and intend to kill a townie. Either way, a wolf Mac would have confidence that I would ensure Fext goes over, and you clearly were intending to 1v1 him to his death as well.

My point is this. After Mac sees 3, if he is a wolf, he would have no reason not to hard defend Fext. Fext was going over regardless, the writing is on the wall, and he gets a bunch of towncred on the side for it.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:34 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:32 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:30 am Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

uh no actually she's right that's exactly what I would do and tbh if I am mafia here that would be a strong reason for someone who knew how i play to townread her tbh lol.

but alas nothing i've done today is designed to capitalise on it so i'm just town.

gonna suck for you when you flip me in my sleep and im town. or maybe it wont and im being hustled. either way gg.

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:34 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:32 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:30 am Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Why is it categorically false?

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:33 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:31 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:29 am https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 73#p887973

if you read from here for a page or so its pretty obvious im not with alison ever if not obvious im just town.

as much as it probably doesn't matter to anyone it was also quite late in the evening after a very long stressful day at work and i really didn't have the energy to do much except pick a town to sheep.

what was quite late in the evening?

the time where i am... it was past 7pm and i was screwing around doing family things between fucking around on this forum after a long day at work. You making an argument that "mac would have wrecked shit" is just annoying and dumb tbh.

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:30 am Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:29 am https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic ... 73#p887973

if you read from here for a page or so its pretty obvious im not with alison ever if not obvious im just town.

as much as it probably doesn't matter to anyone it was also quite late in the evening after a very long stressful day at work and i really didn't have the energy to do much except pick a town to sheep.

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:24 am Fext wasn't pure to me at all. I keep asking people why Fext was obvtown and they can't give me solid answers.

I think if Mac was wolf and came into the thread and saw Fext as being really pure and obvtown and also saw town Alison and town Seanzie attacking Fext he would just hard defend Fext and move his vote off.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:22 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:19 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:11 am What does he gain as scum if he does that? Like, just breaking it down. Scum know the alignments of every other player in the game. If he is scum he knows for certain Fext is town and he wants Fext dead. If he townreads Fext, it is to gain Fext's trust, or the trust of the town. If he votes Fext it is to get Fext killed because he is mafia.

The problem is that if he does both he lessens the effect of either. When he says Fext is towntelling, and he is Mac, some people might move off Fext, so he sabotages his plan to kill Fext. Conversely, by voting Fext he negates all his towncred that he would otherwise gain from his calling Fext town. The only reason Mac would try to do both things at once rather than lean into one side or the other is if he was using mind games and trusting that I would come to this exact conclusion and shield him. Which is why I'd policy him at FX to avoid that possibility, but why would scum Mac mind game D1 when he could just go to sleep and let Seanzie murder Fext?

I don't think it was necessarily a strategic move. He made a mistake. Fext appears really really pure to those who have TMI. Mac was surprised by how the thread treated Fext.

You are extremely likely to be a wolf to not be aware of this yet.

I had no feeling remotely close to surprise on that subject actually.

What I did have was the feeling they were town based on their play, but then I decided to stay the course. C'est la vie.

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:11 am What does he gain as scum if he does that? Like, just breaking it down. Scum know the alignments of every other player in the game. If he is scum he knows for certain Fext is town and he wants Fext dead. If he townreads Fext, it is to gain Fext's trust, or the trust of the town. If he votes Fext it is to get Fext killed because he is mafia.

The problem is that if he does both he lessens the effect of either. When he says Fext is towntelling, and he is Mac, some people might move off Fext, so he sabotages his plan to kill Fext. Conversely, by voting Fext he negates all his towncred that he would otherwise gain from his calling Fext town. The only reason Mac would try to do both things at once rather than lean into one side or the other is if he was using mind games and trusting that I would come to this exact conclusion and shield him. Which is why I'd policy him at FX to avoid that possibility, but why would scum Mac mind game D1 when he could just go to sleep and let Seanzie murder Fext?

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:59 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:52 am Mac never went back-and-forth D1, except for his few appeasement posts to me D1 after I pushed people to give content around Fext's imminet flip. He was pushed to this, it was not natural.

What do you think scum!Mac would do if he saw town!Seanzie pushing as hard on town!Fext as I was pushing?

I think in that scenario he would do one of two things: 1) hard defend Fext and make an ostentatious attempt to try to swing the vote away from Fext, while his mafia buddy plays the other side and ensure Fext goes over, or 2) go "yes, I agree with Seanzie and Alison, Fext is indeed scum", and park on Fext. And then when D2 rolls around, he essentially just says "I dunno, I was sheeping Seanzie/Alison, look at them if you want someone to blame".

If you want specifics:

I think if his mafia partner is NAA he would probably do 2). Remember when I theorized that he would try to swing the vote away from Fext while his mafia buddy parks on Fext? That would essentially be the same strategy, but with NAA being the ostentatious counterwagoner and Mac being the one sleeping on the Fext wagon.

If his mafia partner is Creature then he probably does 1), lets Creature sleep on the Fext wagon, get a town of cred D2, and then shield Creature with his cred (pulling on past meta or just blaming me and you instead of him).

If his mafia partner is Falcon or Wilgy he probably does 1) because he needs thread control and they can't give it to him.

If his mafia partner is me then he almost certainly does 1) and try to make it sound like the Fext wagon was all your fault.

In no worlds do I see it being a worthwhile or attractive play for him to try to townread Fext but in a way that doesn't grab towncred (when Mac absolutely loves grabbing immense towncred to coast on as we saw in Venom and Guns and G10), and also doesn't let him blame you/me for the Fext wagon because he apparently didn't agree with it in the first place. It just doesn't make sense and Mac always has a very strong agenda when he is wolf. The limp wristed back and forth treatment of Fext doesn't reek of a strong agenda to me.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:57 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:38 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

requoting

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:38 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:48 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:36 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:35 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:29 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:26 am Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

I often don't. I ignore him and let other players or the thread state sort him out for me because he is impossible to engage with.

When I do have to try to read Gavial I usually examine the purity of his tone, the consistency of his pushes (he is a lot likely to get stuck as town but will swing crazily to suit an agenda as mafia) and NKA because he is very bad about making kills that screw him over.

How many games deep did it take you to treat gavial like this?

Like 3 or 4? In my first couple of games with him I just voted him out because he was obviously an insane person making insane reads/posts and being really annoying about it. You saw how he was like in Fallout, and I think that was my first game with him. I was 3P who didn't care about the exe and I wanted to kill him anyway lol.

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:45 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:33 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:31 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:27 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:25 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

No, I am not trying to gaslight you into thinking Fext flipped red. That is absurd.

I am telling you that regardless of Fext's alignment their posts did not logically make sense. I pretty extensively deconstructed why their posts did not logically make sense in my ISO. I believe this to be something done by mafia a lot more than town (except for specific players who are crazy townies like Gavial). Therefore I voted Fext. Whether or not Fext is new doesn't change any of this. I don't see why it is insensitive for me to say that a post is bad when it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not calling Fext garbage, I'm just saying his posting this game has been bad and I voted him out for it.

And you really, truly and honestly think Mac is town based on his D1?

Yes. Mac is a strategic scum player who plays with agenda. He is not likely to straddle the fence and take the worst of both worlds if he is mafia. Here is his last scum game, which he played with me: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ed-Hype%21

Day 1, suspicion falls on two of his mafia buddies: Mich-El, who has been afk and is well known to afk as scum, and Katze, who has made a PR claim and been counterclaimed. Mac hard defends both of them, and aggressively tries to counterwagon Great Partners, who is town. Mich-El goes over and flips mafia instead.

Day 2, Mac hard busses Katze, to the point that it had me townreading him in dead chat despite his D1 attempt at saving her. Katze goes over, and Mac coasts on the cred from killing Katze to win the game.

The point is that scum Mac plays in extremes because he wants to either crush the town or gain an immense amount of towncred. The other game I linked to you, Guns and Venom, he also adopted similarly extreme stances, where he hard defended some people and hard pushed others. I cannot remember Mac making a limp wristed push or back-and-forth stance as scum. I believe that if he was scum here would hard commit to either townreading and shielding, or scumreading and burying Fext, the former to gain as much cred as he can and coast through the game, and the latter to just get a town killed in a game where town have very few misexes.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:41 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:38 am I really can't get over how much more activated Mac is now that Alison is here.

I literally told you that was going to happen... i had very little interest in playing whiffle ball bat with you and NAA. Alison just made the game fun again.

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:38 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:31 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:27 am

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am @Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Turbo this if I flip.

Full legacy plz.

Still think you're town, still think Falcon and Wilgy are town. Mac is likely town for reasons I've just gone over, though he should be policied in FX.

I suspect NAA. I suspect Creature.

If I am wrong on a townclear it is probably Mac or Wilgy.

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:35 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:29 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:26 am Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

I often don't. I ignore him and let other players or the thread state sort him out for me because he is impossible to engage with.

When I do have to try to read Gavial I usually examine the purity of his tone, the consistency of his pushes (he is a lot likely to get stuck as town but will swing crazily to suit an agenda as mafia) and NKA because he is very bad about making kills that screw him over.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:33 am have you considered that your mutual dislike of one another is clouding your collective judgement here?

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:30 am AS IF I'D KILL AXE THATS THE ONLY KILL THAT POINTS DIRECTLY AT ME JESUS CHRIST ARE YOU PEOPLE DUMB OR WHAT

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:31 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:27 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:25 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

No, I am not trying to gaslight you into thinking Fext flipped red. That is absurd.

I am telling you that regardless of Fext's alignment their posts did not logically make sense. I pretty extensively deconstructed why their posts did not logically make sense in my ISO. I believe this to be something done by mafia a lot more than town (except for specific players who are crazy townies like Gavial). Therefore I voted Fext. Whether or not Fext is new doesn't change any of this. I don't see why it is insensitive for me to say that a post is bad when it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not calling Fext garbage, I'm just saying his posting this game has been bad and I voted him out for it.

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:27 am

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am @Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Turbo this if I flip.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:28 am you guys seem to have a lot of conviction but also i'm way better at reading alison than you guys are and she's town so like... try something else and we can talk.

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:26 am Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:25 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:23 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:22 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:21 am Alison has legit been the towniest player in this game every time she's been in the thread you guys are like openwolfing or throwing i swear lol.

No. Just bus dude, it will be better for you tomorrow.

believe me I would be bussing if i was mafia with alison right now lol

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:06 am It's an awkward 3 way conversation because 2 people deliberately avoiding each other and pumping different narratives about their play.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:21 am Alison has legit been the towniest player in this game every time she's been in the thread you guys are like openwolfing or throwing i swear lol.