The Syndicate

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:07 pm Has Sabie been scummy enough to warrant 7 votes atm?

Not really, but what 'cha gonna do?

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:58 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:54 pm So I just did a meta-dive on Sabie and was about to vote there, but now there are 5 voters, one of which is NotAnAxehole voting without saying anything in thread...

I still kinda want to vote there, but I don't feel nearly as good about it as I did before I saw the wagon...

[VOTE: Sabie12] aubergine
where does marmot fit in your mind right now if you're voting Sabie

I still think Marmot is >rand!scum. Sabie had weird progression on Marmot, so I don't see them as necessarily anti-teamed even though Sabie was voting Marmot (I also could see Marmot telling his teammates they could bus if they need to). If Sable flips wolf, I'll look further at that tomorrow, but for now I don't really like doing pre-flip associatives because it tends to lead me to confbias rather than form good reads, so my read on them is more-or-less independent of each other.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:57 pm this is spite against whoever threw a cheap shot at me for quote unquote vanity voting earlier

It was me. I threw the cheap shot. Deal with it.

So I just did a meta-dive on Sabie and was about to vote there, but now there are 5 voters, one of which is NotAnAxehole voting without saying anything in thread...

I still kinda want to vote there, but I don't feel nearly as good about it as I did before I saw the wagon...

[VOTE: Sabie12] aubergine

Guillotine wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:30 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:29 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:28 pm N1 medic should probably be on 50/50 between the two abilities

Rocket guy can do whatever, probably take the vote day 1 and not sure from there

Pyro should only be using air blast if anything and probably nothing for now
Sniper should claim if there are votes on them to draw mafia actions maybe can get guided if necessary
I have opinions on heavy but I’m not going to share them
Demoman should be straight up blocking every night, might sticky bombs exactly n1 though
Scouts should probably baseball bat day 1
I think one? Engineer should claim now, and we can set up a system to test whether they’re town or mafia. But I don’t understand the engineer power so idk

General setup note: counterwagons are interesting but should probably be avoided. Lots of ways for wolves to hit extra vote power
same logic applies to vanity votes. so... ?
Unless there is a power that can add 4 votes, vanity wagons do not apply really.

My point is that with potential for wolf vote manipulation, town being on a vanity wagon is -EV since it allows for scum to have more wagon control.

Guillotine wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:29 pm
LinearPoint wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:27 pm Such an interesting poll for day end.
Seems like it comes down to the vote manipulators who gets lynched.
This is why we should compromise on someone instead of splitting the poll.

Eh, these are good points, I voted specifically to make a 3-way tie to see what happens, but with vote manipulation... ties aren't necessarily ties, and that is a bit meh...

[VOTE: Marmot] aubergine

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:28 pm N1 medic should probably be on 50/50 between the two abilities

Rocket guy can do whatever, probably take the vote day 1 and not sure from there

Pyro should only be using air blast if anything and probably nothing for now
Sniper should claim if there are votes on them to draw mafia actions maybe can get guided if necessary
I have opinions on heavy but I’m not going to share them
Demoman should be straight up blocking every night, might sticky bombs exactly n1 though
Scouts should probably baseball bat day 1
I think one? Engineer should claim now, and we can set up a system to test whether they’re town or mafia. But I don’t understand the engineer power so idk

General setup note: counterwagons are interesting but should probably be avoided. Lots of ways for wolves to hit extra vote power

same logic applies to vanity votes. so... ?

Okay, I read up. I downgrade Mac from >>rand!scum to >rand!scum because I didn't understand the context of one of his posts that led me to upgrade him to >>rand!scum in the first place.

Marmot likely a hit here because when I scummed with Marmot a few weeks ago, he talked about how he has forgotten how to scum, and thus far it looks like that is happening here again.

However, I decided to not vote for either of them and instead vote for someone I haven't talked anything about thus far. So... take that for what you will.

Okay, I'm back. I'm going to catch up now.

Also, Mac >>rand!Mafia. That's >> not >. Will probably move there after I read, assuming my thoughts don't change (big assumption).

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Dec 19, 2021 6:35 pm @Seanzie why sig?

I don't remember, but I know at the time I felt pretty good about the vote. I'm out on a date, will remember tomorrow.

Gavial wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 11:30 pm

If Sean is Wolf Me/Guillo/Falcon/Dolby is a good town core.
Maybe even add Martin as well to it.

And if Sean is not wolf?

Marmot wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:59 pm
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 6:55 pm Guys...Gavial is pinging me again...make him stop...

Particularly by doing this.

[VOTE: Gavial] aubergine
[VOTE: Gavial] aubergine

Choo choo

No. No, no, no, no, no.

If you want to kill alligators you need to give reasons.

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:07 pm
Marmot wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:02 pm I've seen sean as scum but I don't remember how he behaved. Does that help?
If it helps the game I'm referring my meta to is this game:

https://mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic.php?t=2201

Where he did next to nothing.

Ftr, I can wolf better than that on a good day, but I've had a few pretty bad scum games due to wolf fatigue. In particular, that one you quoted was after a few scum draws in a row, and Danganropa3 on MafC I was also pretty scum fatigued because it was like my third scum game in a row, so I didn't really perform super well.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:34 pm
Guillotine wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:07 pm
Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 6:48 pm Sean and Falcon, you should start a town core. You’re both town. I’m rooting for you!
The fuck is this? Why do you post like you shouldnt be in the towncore of those you townread?
I’m not planning to be very active at the start of this.

Thread is quiet and I want the game to have a good start though.

Also, think I’ll exchange my Falcon for Guillo right now.

Sean is town. I know him, this be town.
Tony is town cause I can tell.
Guillo is probably town and Sean thinks so too so that’s good. Work together \o/
Lime is town because he’s cute and also real reasons.

^I think this is a nice town core to start with.
(Dis)agreements?

I could be mistaken, but I don't think you've ever actually seen me as scum, so you're going to have to do more than "I know him" to justify your read on me.

Tell me about Tony. I don't see town!Tony right now. I don't necessarily see scum!Tony either, but I don't see town!Tony. If you do, please elaborate.

Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 6:48 pm Sean and Falcon, you should start a town core. You’re both town. I’m rooting for you!

Should you be in this budding towncore?

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 5:53 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 5:15 pm [VOTE: Sig] aubergine
Why not Mac?

Because my read on Mac is much weaker than my read on Sig.

Why are you curious about "why not Mac", rather than Linearpoint?

[VOTE: Sig] aubergine

Guillotine wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 3:12 pm Sig is hardcore obvious scum and im tunneling to their slow and painful death.

I don't know what parallel world I have entered, but I'm like 90% to locking Guillo town on D0 (this is hyperbole, but I do townread Guillo).

I agree on Sig. >rand!wolf for sure.

That't three in the team. Who is the last?

Guillotine wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 2:39 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 2:31 pm
Guillotine wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 2:14 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:52 pm So I briefly considered if it might be good for us to massclaim our colors D1.

Benefits: reduces scums ability to do claimswaps, and also reduces the ability for scum to vague claim (i.e. if they are vaguely hinting at something that sounds a whole lot like your ability, and they're the same color as you, that's clearly sus).

Drawbacks: Could lead to scum being able to guess certain townies roles easier once the game goes on and a few people from own of the colors has flipped.

I didn't actually come to a conclusion on if I think we should or not though, so uhh... thoughts?
No, Im sure with all roles being known there gotta be some sort of anti-claim mechanic so hard pass.
It's an open setup, so there is no hidden anti-claim mechanic.

Either way though, I've come around to thinking it is not a good idea to claim colors.
Why not? Im green, how about you?

Please read the posts in thread, as this had already been discussed. Clearly I'm not talking about town vs mafia here when I talk of colors.

Guillotine wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 2:14 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:52 pm So I briefly considered if it might be good for us to massclaim our colors D1.

Benefits: reduces scums ability to do claimswaps, and also reduces the ability for scum to vague claim (i.e. if they are vaguely hinting at something that sounds a whole lot like your ability, and they're the same color as you, that's clearly sus).

Drawbacks: Could lead to scum being able to guess certain townies roles easier once the game goes on and a few people from own of the colors has flipped.

I didn't actually come to a conclusion on if I think we should or not though, so uhh... thoughts?
No, Im sure with all roles being known there gotta be some sort of anti-claim mechanic so hard pass.

It's an open setup, so there is no hidden anti-claim mechanic.

Either way though, I've come around to thinking it is not a good idea to claim colors.

sig wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:33 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:22 pm So looking back, I think Linearpoint and Mac are >rand!mafia, but that second one might be mildly fueled by OMGUS.
why?

Linearpoint's first post is the sort of first post that I like to make as scum (I always find the first post the hardest, after getting the first post out of the way, it is much easier to continue. Sometimes I even specifically try to "first" specifically to get the first post out of the way), and while this is not scum-indicative necessarily, it is scum-compatible. Then as others have mentioned, sometimes scum likes to mech-talk to hide, and their posts in regards to my team-claim suggestion feel the most likely to be coming from scum trying to look helpful in a mech discussion.

As for Mac, he called me mafia, so he must be mafia.

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:41 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:32 pm
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:25 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:21 pm
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:16 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 11:48 am
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:02 am

What's not super likely? That Maf use claim swaps late game, or that Maf have multiple members alive late game?

Sean is in my sus pile
Well hopefully both, but I was talking specifically about how it is probably not likely that a situation where it might make sense for mafia to claimswap happens.
Still strikes me as an odd topic of discussion at this stage, but I'm not the conversation police, so you do you I s'pose.

Your explanation does not remove you from my sus pile BTW
I mean, when else should you talk about a game-long gameplan other than the beginning of the game?

And that's fine, sus me all you want.
There are so many variables, that I feel game long planning this early in a game this size is a bit like shoveling snow in a blizzard
I mean not really game related, but I'm kinda guessing from this comment you don't live in the north? Shoveling snow during a blizzard is actually a good idea as long as it isn't dangerous outside. It is a lot easier to shovel 6 inches of snow 4 times than it is to shovel 2 feet of snow once, so shoveling during a blizzard can be super helpful.
Honestly, I'd be surprised if there are many on Syndicate is as North as I am. It's -25C outside right now

Well, I was wrong then.

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:25 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:21 pm
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:16 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 11:48 am
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:02 am
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 2:10 am
Dolby wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:28 pm Also don't see why a claim swap would happen?

If one goes down the other would go down
Claimswaps can happen late game when the remaining mafia members hope to win with both people involved alive.

Granted, I do concede that it is probably not super likely to happen.
What's not super likely? That Maf use claim swaps late game, or that Maf have multiple members alive late game?

Sean is in my sus pile
Well hopefully both, but I was talking specifically about how it is probably not likely that a situation where it might make sense for mafia to claimswap happens.
Still strikes me as an odd topic of discussion at this stage, but I'm not the conversation police, so you do you I s'pose.

Your explanation does not remove you from my sus pile BTW
I mean, when else should you talk about a game-long gameplan other than the beginning of the game?

And that's fine, sus me all you want.
There are so many variables, that I feel game long planning this early in a game this size is a bit like shoveling snow in a blizzard

I mean not really game related, but I'm kinda guessing from this comment you don't live in the north? Shoveling snow during a blizzard is actually a good idea as long as it isn't dangerous outside. It is a lot easier to shovel 6 inches of snow 4 times than it is to shovel 2 feet of snow once, so shoveling during a blizzard can be super helpful.

So looking back, I think Linearpoint and Mac are >rand!mafia, but that second one might be mildly fueled by OMGUS.

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:16 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 11:48 am
falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:02 am
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 2:10 am
Dolby wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:28 pm Also don't see why a claim swap would happen?

If one goes down the other would go down
Claimswaps can happen late game when the remaining mafia members hope to win with both people involved alive.

Granted, I do concede that it is probably not super likely to happen.
What's not super likely? That Maf use claim swaps late game, or that Maf have multiple members alive late game?

Sean is in my sus pile
Well hopefully both, but I was talking specifically about how it is probably not likely that a situation where it might make sense for mafia to claimswap happens.
Still strikes me as an odd topic of discussion at this stage, but I'm not the conversation police, so you do you I s'pose.

Your explanation does not remove you from my sus pile BTW

I mean, when else should you talk about a game-long gameplan other than the beginning of the game?

And that's fine, sus me all you want.

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:02 am
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 2:10 am
Dolby wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:28 pm Also don't see why a claim swap would happen?

If one goes down the other would go down
Claimswaps can happen late game when the remaining mafia members hope to win with both people involved alive.

Granted, I do concede that it is probably not super likely to happen.
What's not super likely? That Maf use claim swaps late game, or that Maf have multiple members alive late game?

Sean is in my sus pile

Well hopefully both, but I was talking specifically about how it is probably not likely that a situation where it might make sense for mafia to claimswap happens.

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 3:17 am There's a time and place for mech talk.

However I don't want to be starting with it because it's easy for scum to hide behind.

Day 0 is legit when to talk setup mech? Like in open setups if there is a plan town should follow, y'all need to be on board D1.

But yeah, I agree it can be easy to just talk mech, and the more I think about it, the more I think my suggestion just doesn't have merit, so I'm okay dropping the mech talk at this point.

Dolby wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 4:51 am
Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 2:11 am
Dolby wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:45 pm Yeah I personally don't see a benefit to a mass claim

Tells mafia who we all are and since they know what they can do it gives them more of an advantage I think, given they know what they as a faction can do and we don't. Mafia aren't going to claimswap anyway I don't think, except near the end. And honestly if we stop on yeeting "x" in f5 after they're tracked to "y" who died because they claim medic and no one CCs that's kinda on us?
I agree in regards to a total claim. I am more curious about the merits of a color claim. So no roles, just red team or blue team.
eh, I'm pretty sleep deprived rn and might go back on this

but

see what I just said with regards to fullclaim

Let's as a thought exercise say that all mafia are red, bam they know that 5 town contain 5 specific roles, and can probably make reads for roles within there. The information gained by town is less than that by mafia, and honestly, same for a 2/2 split.

and for what? to prevent them from claimswapping later? Don't think it would be that effective. The motivation for a claimswap is going to be some mechanical info being outted which makes the mafia look bad probably, and it's going to be bad on us for not catching it if we don't.

tl;dr, mafia gain more info and I don't think stopping a late game claimswap is very +EV for town

Well, stopping a late game claimswap is definitely +EV for town, but yeah I think I am starting to agree that it isn't enough +EV to counter the -EV of info given to scum.

There was another game with a similarish setup (well... only kinda, town was split into two teams) where I thought claiming teams was a horrible idea until I ran the numbers and realized that claiming teams could guarantee a scum chop without fail on either D1 or D2, and was actually almost the only viable strategy to give town a fighting chance (It was a 12p game with 4 wolves, so like... kill a wolf in two days or lose) This setup doesn't seem to have as much benefit to team claiming though.

Dolby wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:45 pm Yeah I personally don't see a benefit to a mass claim

Tells mafia who we all are and since they know what they can do it gives them more of an advantage I think, given they know what they as a faction can do and we don't. Mafia aren't going to claimswap anyway I don't think, except near the end. And honestly if we stop on yeeting "x" in f5 after they're tracked to "y" who died because they claim medic and no one CCs that's kinda on us?

I agree in regards to a total claim. I am more curious about the merits of a color claim. So no roles, just red team or blue team.

Dolby wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:28 pm Also don't see why a claim swap would happen?

If one goes down the other would go down

Claimswaps can happen late game when the remaining mafia members hope to win with both people involved alive.

Granted, I do concede that it is probably not super likely to happen.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:15 pm
Seanzie wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:52 pm So I briefly considered if it might be good for us to massclaim our colors D1.

Benefits: reduces scums ability to do claimswaps, and also reduces the ability for scum to vague claim (i.e. if they are vaguely hinting at something that sounds a whole lot like your ability, and they're the same color as you, that's clearly sus).

Drawbacks: Could lead to scum being able to guess certain townies roles easier once the game goes on and a few people from own of the colors has flipped.

I didn't actually come to a conclusion on if I think we should or not though, so uhh... thoughts?
Seanzie is mafia

If I was mafia, could I do this?

*does a blackflip*

So I briefly considered if it might be good for us to massclaim our colors D1.

Benefits: reduces scums ability to do claimswaps, and also reduces the ability for scum to vague claim (i.e. if they are vaguely hinting at something that sounds a whole lot like your ability, and they're the same color as you, that's clearly sus).

Drawbacks: Could lead to scum being able to guess certain townies roles easier once the game goes on and a few people from own of the colors has flipped.

I didn't actually come to a conclusion on if I think we should or not though, so uhh... thoughts?

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