The Syndicate

overall I don't think it was that bad though and was enjoyable trying to think about how everything interacts.

Honestly it was kind of hard to properly balance that game.
It wasn't really just that it was role madness either, but more the fact every role was quite powerful and the Mafia didn't really have substantial buffs and some could be considered detrimental.
Even though it never came up because no one really wanted to test it, the Engineer could have easily be solved as Town or Mafia with a single roleblock. Engineer probably could have gotten a different buff entirely such as stronger buildings rather than them not being destroyed.
I also think with there being 8 roleblocking roles in Engineer, Demo, Sniper, and Medic mafia could have possibly just always had their faction kill roleblock immune or something since the kill being roleblocked is actually quite likely. Frankly if the crit canteens were available from the start of the game and instead of being limited just allowing them to chose one of the effects for the night could have gone a long way helping the Mafia play around all the roleblock, healing, and redirecting.
The last thing I'd possibly consider would have been adding more restrictions to all the roles for Town at least. Notably if in general a player couldn't chose the same action twice in a row or if each action has an actual downside to them. The Medic's Solem Vow was a good balance choice I feel, but I think more could have been done for some other classes. I think only really Scout and Soldier had legitimate negitives to spamming their abilities and Soldier was pretty easy to mitigate honestly.
I mean at the end of the day it's hard to say exactly how best to improve a role madness game, but that's just my thoughts. Maybe you could also have limited the number of abilities each role had from 3 to 2. Pretty much everyone just did the most effective ability always. Demoman never used anything but the roleblock, Pyro's never used the vote manipulation, Engineer never built Teleporters, I don't think Spies ever would have used the Sapper (not to mention no one wanted to enter the bases). Really just a lot of stuff went unused because they weren't super useful. I think Demoman was most egregious since the unconditional roleblock was just so powerful.

RNG chose you to die.

Wasn't it you NAA who said Mafia should just stick together and vote with their numbers?
And 3 mafia did that day 1 and 2 got scum read hard for it.

Also there was a 1/8 chance TSP dies that night.

That was surprisingly anticlimatic. 3 out of 4 Mafia died to night kill choices.
Only Nanook was actually scum read and caught.

Huh, so Airblast can redirect to self target unlike the other two.
I thought it couldn't.

I still think there is a healthy amount of WIFOM which is what we need. Mafia needs to be paranoid and possibly use more crits than they need to or even mispredict something and not use a certain crit when they actually needed to.

And technically LC could have submit a request and just said he didn't so Mafia thinks Falcon is being roleblocked by Martin.

Meh, if Falcon was the only one to submit a request it's not the end of the world. Marmot can still potentially watch Falcon so Mafia still can't even safely anti-heal kill Falcon.
The only thing it means is Mafia doesn't have to use their anti-heal crit to kill anyone else.

Honestly I'm imagining the host is just sitting there sad that literally no one has submitted to go to a base for 4 nights.

I think regardless of who martin chooses we are good for tonight though.
A lot of things can stop Mafia kill, so if they don't use at least two crits tonight they probably wont get a kill in.

And I guess then if LC also sent a request whichever doesn't make it in can fish for an RB (or heal Marmot if Falcon was left out)

Or, I just went back and reread they can drink multiple in one night, but if they do that that's way better for Town since they just burn a lot of their killing power for one guaranteed kill.

Since Mafia has to chose which 1 thing they are immune to tonight I think the less concrete plan we have the better.
Forces Mafia to actually have to worry about if their kill will be stopped or if they get caught by Marmot.

It's probably also a good idea for Martin to not say who he's protecting tonight because then Mafia can play around not having to worry about Falcon or LC.

You still have half an hour to submit going into the RED base.
It wouldn't be a bad idea for anyone wanting to be RB cleared to submit a request to enter the base.
Just keep in mind BLUE players don't get the healing or extra vote from the base just the roleblock.

If so you can submit to enter RED Engie base.
That provides a heal and RB clear.

Actualyl are either of you (LC or Falcon) red team?

I honestly think LC picks their best judgement of the players who aren't protecting tonight.
Basically Gullio, Marmot, TSP, and Martin.
Really all of them are good options.

I think the only real way the plan can reliably be undercut is if LC is Mafia.
We can possibly put both pyros on basically randomizing between Falcon, Marmot, and LC.
I mostly separated me and Wiggly out to keep things simple and not risk pyro airblasting a pyro to someone else and really fucking things up.

The plan basically makes it hard for Mafia to reliably kill one of our 3 strongest roles.
Mafia is pretty screwed if they don't kill off those players.
if one is Mafia (probably LC) then it doesn't matter as eventually LC's role will back him into a corner where he has to be blatant with his anti-town roleblocks or just confirmed everyone else.

Theoertically we can do something like this.

Our strongest roles are LC, Falcon, and Marmot.
I don't think Mafia can afford to kill anyone outside of those 3 players otherwise they just lose to mechanics.

Even if we take into account the possibility that one of those 3 players is Mafia I think this plan would be solid:

Wiggly chooses to either do nothing tonight OR airblast protect Marmot.
Falcon chooses to either heal Marmot OR heal LC.
I choose to either airblast LC OR airblast Falcon.
Marmot chooses to either watch LC OR watch Falcon.

If Mafia tries to kill Marmot they have to guess if he is being healed or if he is being airblasted. If Mafia guesses wrong, they waste one of their crits and lose a night.
If Mafia tries to kill LC they have to guess if he is being airblasted, watched, or healed. If Mafia guesses wrong, the same as Marmot.
If Mafia tries to kill Falcon they have to guess if he is being watched or airblasted. If Mafia guesses wrong they might lose the game outright.
If Mafia tries to kill any other player then LC confirms a player as Town and we get a confirmed townie.

The plan can possibly be undercut by one of the 4 protective roles being Mafia, but that just eliminates the Mafia risking a night action.
Even if they can successfully get a clean kill off Town is still in a good position. Best case scenario Mafia kills someone who isn't in those 3.
LC always confirms a townie even if LC is Mafia. TSP might even be able to snipe the last Mafia or worst case scenario eliminate a suspect.

It'll be 7v1 after N6 if the kill isn't blocked so I believe we're good.

As a bonus a lot of people are looking pretty likely to be Town.
Marmot, Falcon, and LC are all extremely strong roles that the Mafia cannot afford to leave alive as they only have 1 RB immunity, 1 watcher immunity, and 1-2 heal immunity.

I have an idea that might be able to work at making Mafia's life a little bit harder tonight.

Oh yeah and Sig can roleblock LC and just mess the whole plan up.

Also I will point out that Roleblocking Sig works up until we have to confirm LC isn't Mafia.
And if either Pyro is Mafia Sig is immune to roleblocks and we have no way to easily confirm Pyro didn't redirect LC (or LC didn't roleblock Sig)
Basically if me, Wiggly, or LC are Mafia Sig can kill every night without fear of being roleblocked. It only works if there isn't a Mafia in that group. And that is ignoring the fact that Falcon can also mess with that plan.
The only way we confirm the plan goes through is if Marmot can somehow watch both LC to confirm me, Wiggly, or Falcon didn't stop the roleblock as well as watching Sig to make sure that LC actually targeted Sig (and this also introduces the possibility me or Wiggly airblasts the roleblock and watcher).
Best case scenario would be Marmot watched Sig and saw no visitors in which case that narrows the list of suspects down to me, Wiggly, LC, and Falcon as the only people who could have prevented LC from visiting.

I mean if I'm being honest the fact martin hasn't built a teleporter seems pretty townie since telleporter really only benefits Mafia.

Also to the idea of leaving Sig alive, I thought about it at first, but I think that is ultimately just not the right play.
We have to roleblock Sig each night and we only have 1 reliable roleblocker in LC.
Falcon can only roleblock every other night, and mafia have to literally ask martin to roleblock them.

or actually Martin's still able to be easy cleared.
As long as he gets roleblocked once he is confirmed Town or Mafia since the building will only be destroyed if he is town.

Honestly yeah Martin is right he should have been roleblocked confirmed a long time ago.
Unfortunately now Mafia has a 1-shot RB immunity so he'd need to be roleblocked once on two separate nights to confirm via that method.
That being said though, that now applies to everyone.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:08 pm There are three RBs left so we clear half of the players right away and then we can clear the other half the next day even if Marmot doesn’t hit another watch

Well we're losing 1 RB today becuase they are Mafia.

LinearPoint wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:16 pm
sabie12 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:11 pm Hmm I guess Marmot's disinterest is odd and could be mafia? If he were then he hasn't provided much interaction with anyone so he wouldn't be worried about giving away teammates if he gets voted off. I can never get a good read on Jack. If Jack is mafia he's better to get out earlier rather than later. Does gavial have a different playstyle when town or mafia? He always seems kinda all over the place.
Throwing a vote on marmot for now. Hoping to be able to come back later before EOD.
[VOTE: marmot] aubergine
I don't like this.
You're last post with Marmot was basically saying you felt the same about the game as they did.
Spoiler: show
sabie12 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:25 am
Marmot wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:02 am
Lime Coke wrote: ↑Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:40 pm @Marmot

Why are you way more low presence compared to Philo 2?

I keep forgetting I'm in a mafia game and am feeling lazy this game.

That happens to me when I haven't played in awhile. Any thoughts so far?
But now you are using it as a reason to vote them?
It just feels like this is coming from someone looking for an excuse to get on the wagon than a legitimate read.

LinearPoint wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:27 pm I honestly feel NAA is not really going to be worth the lynch today because there are others who were acting worse. Quick lynching him I don't think is ever the play TBH.
For once Sig, Jack, and Sabie were being heavily pushed by Dizzy and a lot of people had Dizzy as null to scum yesterday so the Mafia really had no reason to kill Dizzy unless Dizzy was actually accurate with their reads.
Gav Mafia I also don't think would have killed Dizzzy honestly. He'd be too confident he could lynch Dizzy today.

LinearPoint wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:26 pm At the very least this does confirm there is at least 1 Mafia in NAA, Tony, and Nonook.
There is no chance that whole last second push off Mafia was all Town.
NAA is probably most likely to just have the balls to try it, but I don't think Nanook ever voted for Sabie, but Tony and NAA at some point had.

Pretty easily caught Sabie on their terrible Day 1. Reasoned Sig probably told Sabie to kill dizzy. And even reasoned through that Nanook was the Mafia who tried to save Sabie D1.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 9:14 pm
LinearPoint wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 9:13 pm
MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 9:12 pm
LinearPoint wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:55 pm If Sabie does flip Mafia that CFD is pretty sus, probably just means NAA is Mafia.
If Sabie is Town though, I don't think that gets us anywhere useful.
what does LP have going for him?
Catching 3 scum and being a god at reads :P
I'm sure if I bothered to look there'd be plenty of you making bad reads. Case in point your current one.

So you don't think it's LC? Then who are your top mafia?

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 9:12 pm
LinearPoint wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:55 pm If Sabie does flip Mafia that CFD is pretty sus, probably just means NAA is Mafia.
If Sabie is Town though, I don't think that gets us anywhere useful.
what does LP have going for him?

Catching 3 scum and being a god at reads :P

Like...

Spoiler: show

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:23 pm
sabie12 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:45 pm
TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:43 am
sabie12 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:59 am I, too, have been fooled a few times by mafia jack. I feel like I can never read him. I'm not sure I've ever seen mafia falcon or just don't remember so not sure if there is a difference, but I didn't see anything outright scummy with him so far. Gavial I think is also a bit harder to read. I saw that people kind of jumped on voting him pretty quick into the day.
Pls more prescriptive less descriptive statements
Sure I can elaborate. I don't think we can judge Jack's alignment yet as he hasn't been here even if he has been tricky in the past. I was unsure as to why everyone jumped so quickly on the gav train so early on. I guess that stems from me taking a little longer to process things in the beginning of games before figuring things out. From my experience, I feel like there are sometimes players who often get scumread early on whether they are town or scum. I've seen this happen to sig and to gavial for example and it seems to have happened here.
down to just kill gavial and jack next based on this post

Both wrong.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:02 pm I'd like to just point out that while we are all talking shit Dolby is outed mafia

Also wrong.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:33 am
LinearPoint wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:29 am We should always out Nanook over Jack I think.
Jack at the very least was on Sabie even when Sabie was 20 seconds from being lynched D1.
Unlike Nanook who switched to Sean to save Sabie.
Ehhhh I'm not sure about dis.

Double wrong with nanook being town and jack being mafia.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:04 pm
Guillotine wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:02 pm That'd be too obvious though, nah

Maybe that is what scum wants us to think.

Why scum would kill Gavial? The loose cannon who's been PoE.

Scum does not kill Gavial but if they didn't... scum does not kill Jack either. The kills dont make sense.
Jack is spewed town by the nanook flip and probably had wolves voting him.

NAA is essentially outed by two wagons now.

NAA wasn't Mafia, so wrong again.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 4:42 am @DrWilgy is probably always mafia here too fwiw.

Also think sig is pretty likely mafia.

Don't like Falcon either.

A rare actually correct read Mac had this game.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:12 pm So I read a little bit and see Sabie is red checked which should clear me tbh cuz I wanted to kill her ass and do nothing else before the red check was a thing.

Aaaaanyway TSP, NAA and Nanook can just get it.

I also want Gavial, Guillo and Martin to die.

Also just put a bunch of names out there, Nanook flipped Mafia, Gav vlipped Town and the rest are alive. So at least 4 of these reads are wrong.

I'm mostly putting this out here because Mac is rather uncharacteristically just wrong wiht 90% of his mafia reads this game.

And honestly after reading Mac's ISO I'm kind of leaning on Mac being Mafia.
He has legitimately no correct reads outside of Nannook being Mafia.

Per Gullio's request I have combed through Day 1 and compiled every post that could be construed as not wanting to lynch Sig (ignoring dead people and Sig)
Unfortunately Sig's biggest defender was Gav and not many people questioned or even wanted to defend Sig.

Spoiler: show

Although Mac never mentioned anything about Sig at the start of D2, he and sig were tag teaming trying to lynch me D2.
I think if you were going off of people defending Sig then that would mean Mac is really the only suspect. Falcon while he did question Sig lynch did everytually get on Sig after Sig dipped after being accused D1.
Maybe marmot.
So far I'm thinking LC, Martin, or Mac for last Mafia based on Sig-related analysis.

Also gullio is just always town lol. He was hard pushing Sabie and Sig for D1 lynch.
LOL TSP is even more IC. "I could go for Sabie, Sig, or Nanook today" lol.
All maf got hard scum read D1.

Guillotine wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 8:19 pm
Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 7:29 pm Greetings. I have come here to bring the many times dreaded, but sometimes necessary, Balance Patch. It has dawned on me that this setup may not have been as balanced as I thought it was, and between letting it play out that way and apologizing later or making a fix while I can, I have picked the later. I believe the fix is not a direct upgrade to either faction, it is more like a general equalizer that makes all remaining classes similarly effective against mafia and prevents mech analysis from being too automatic.

This part of the setup:

The faction also has one crit canteen, which can turn their faction-kill into a critical hit, making it ignore all protections and defenses, for one night. If only one member of the faction is alive, every kill they make will be a critical hit.
Has been edited to this:

The faction also has one crit canteen, which can turn their faction-kill into a critical hit, making it ignore all protections and defenses, for one night.

If only one member of the faction is alive, they will get a second dose of crit canteen, as well as one dose of each of the following:

- Cloak canteen: makes the player's actions not appear to trackers or watchers for a night.
- Teleport canteen: player's the player's actions avoid roleblocking or misdirecting for one night.
- Uber canteen: makes the player dodge one kill that targets them.

The mafia may use multiple canteens in the same night. The act of drinking a canteen can't be blocked.
So instead of the last mafioso getting infinite anti-doctor boosts, they get 1 anti-doctor, 1 anti-watcher, 1 anti-blocker, and 1 anti-vig. The change is effective now, though obviously it will only affect the gameplay after the death of the 3rd mafioso.

I hope you folks understand the need for this, since my goal is to make the game as fun as possible to everyone in it.
What the hell is this? Ive never seen a game being changed by a host mid game! This is massive host interference!

By thecway, i told you guys Sig was outed wolf since day 1, im the best Day 1 scum hunter in the globe. Two caught scum baby! Sabie and Sig!

By the way, i didnt use my self save last night lol. I love gambling!

I'll 1 up you. I called you Sabie, Sig, and Nanook (ignore that i also had Jack in that list please sorry Jackie)

Host trying to stop me from ruining his game.
Jokes on you. I'll find a way.

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Sun Dec 26, 2021 8:00 pm [VOTE: JackofHearts] aubergine

Might make a full case on why LC is last Mafia, but I think this first post of D3 with him going for Jack over Nanook seems pretty telling to me.
Consider it an appetizer for now.

Unfortunately that would have to rework an easy win plan. I guess just watching me or Wiggly instead of LC would be the play.

So yeah, I'm going to say it's probably Sig, LC actually.

Missed some things.
This actually makes me think it's not Gullio.

sig wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:03 pm
sig wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:33 pm
Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 11:46 am I think it’s best if mafia role claim, but town doesn’t.
this right here is peak town. solid green, ride and die, will sheep for first ten days.
I"ll literally requote the post that got Gullio on me.

This, basically hours into the game.

It would be akin to saying I was claiming cultist and obviously third party when I said dizzy and i should start a cult. Very nonsensical.

Furthermore, and why Gullio got the vote from me and why I'll keep hounding on it is he never went any deeper or attempted to engage me.

Then is trying to paint this false narrative I'm just OMGUS at him, but like come on when your reasoning is literally not a reason of course that's gonna lead to a counter vote and some pings since seems like a good fake set up for mafia to use.

And I'll keep bringing this up as long as its the cornerstone of him wanting to vote for me and trying to flood the thread with vote sig he's obvious mafia.

Meanwhile this actually seems to be pointing to confirming that it is LC.

sig wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:31 pm So my biggest issue right now is I don't have any super solid mafia reads.

I'm back and forth on Gullio, his low tunneling on me is a bit scummy and he's not doing much content wise just volume also there's this weird thing with naa which doesn't seem V/V unless I"m missing something? But, he was also pushing sabie for awhile if i recall correctly and Last phase I pegged him as tunneling towny which seems more right.

I think the LC read on jack has some merit, but with the amount of blocks, protects, eCt out there it isn't solid.

I think most likely mafia are laying low, maybe we've got one who voted to save sabie, but doubt it's more than that, and probably one on her wagon? I need to go backk and look at that lay out.

Also beginning to suspect Falcon given his under the radar playstyle and D1 flipflopping vote then avoidance of wagons.

Oh phewy Sig townspewed Faclon.

sig wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:33 pm
Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 6:48 pm Sean and Falcon, you should start a town core. You’re both town. I’m rooting for you!
Not a fan of this. Starting towncores literally seconds into the game actually starting is a sure fire way to get a mafia member in the towncore and nuke entire game.

This spews TSP as Town

sig wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:07 pm Also is it worth it for both snipers to claim now, ik we've got one claim out there.

The issue will of course be if one rolled mafia, but otherwise we can discuss as a thread kill targets and ensure we don't accidentally vote for them.

Contenders for last Mafia based on Sig's D1.

LC - an earl wishywashy read on LC and only commented on Dizzy's LC and Sean reads.

Spoiler: show

Gullio could be a possibilit based on this post. It's an RVS but is forced. Can't tell if it's forced in the since Sig wanted to put any vote out or a distancing force.

Spoiler: show

Again this feels a tad forced. This came from D2 though so Sig wasn't RVSing Gullio like it seemed? Their whole push on Gullio is bad but I cannot tell if that is distancing or just not pushing good.

Spoiler: show

The only other reads I saw from Sig were scum reading me for saying Nanook and Sig were Mafia and scum reading Falcon as my partner. Which those don't come across as distancing IMO and probably are just town spews.

falcon45ca wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 6:59 pm
LinearPoint wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 6:57 pm As long as Marmot watches LC...
Mafia has to kill me and Wiggly N5 and N6 is either order.
Then Mafia has to kill Marmot N7.
So if we just spend the rest of the game voting to not lynch anyone eventually LC will find the last Mafia.
Yeah, but that's boring AF

That's it boys we got em. The last Mafia gg.

This only doesn't end in a Town win if Marmot hard bussed 2 Mafia.
If LC is the last Mafia eventually he confirms everyone else is Town and is screwed himself.

As long as Marmot watches LC...
Mafia has to kill me and Wiggly N5 and N6 is either order.
Then Mafia has to kill Marmot N7.
So if we just spend the rest of the game voting to not lynch anyone eventually LC will find the last Mafia.

OK it does redirect it. So yeah it's literally impossible for Marmot to be killed for at least 2 nights.

Actually I might need to ask host if airblast can redirect a crit. I assume so but I don't know.

Roleblock wouldn't be defense or protection.

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:34 am The faction also has one crit canteen, which can turn their faction-kill into a critical hit, making it ignore all protections and defenses, for one night. If only one member of the faction is alive, every kill they make will be a critical hit.

Note: the setup posted in this thread is not necesssarily final and there may be some changes in the roles until the game starts.

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