Cartomancy [Game Over]

[Alison]

Yeah, that just kinda feels like a bunch of nitpicking. Calling promises of future content wolfy is like....you wait for the content to come or not come. And agreeing with meta and undermining yourself aren't scum indicative in the first place. Does feel bad faith.

okay. i dont find promises of future content either, but i do think that specifically saying: "i will need to read this part of the game again' on page 2 of the RVS phase can be indicative of a wolf who feels insecure about not being towny ~enough~ and is trying to cover for it by acting like they're going to post more content later. i noticed myself doing similar stuff when i was wolfing in hydra game 4 so i think it can be a legitimate wolftell with the right context

i think i somewhat agree with you that some of alison's reasons for pushing on ppl are flimsy/could be perceived as bad faith but i also dont particularly think this is alignment indicative for alison

So you're saying Alison is bad at catching wolves when she's town?

not bad at catching wolves, but projects confidence/assertiveness to a level that is easy to read as wolf-indicative when it's actually just Alison

This would be a perfectly normal post explaining my meta if if was directed to someone like Kate or Dennis who has never seen me in their life. Unfortunately it is directed at a player who has multiple years of experience with me both in game and out and really should know better. Occam's Razor suggests they are full of doodoo and therefore mafia.

[tutuu]

i tried to play this cycle intentionally scummy thus far, being widely townread is weird and there are a few possible reasons for it

maybe we have a widely different ideas for how to play a town role immune to night kills, as my strategy would be the exact opposite of yours :P

[Creature]

I'll prob only be able to do good stuff after D1. I can't function without flips and seeing how wagons work on non-me players. Wagoning me here is detrimental to town.

also this post activates my fight or flight instincts with the way that creature worded it, even tho admittedly sometimes creature just makes post like that as both alignments

Turns out I've been able to do some good stuff D1.

Any comments on the confidence boost that SPF remarked on?

Confidence boost?

[Alison]

Next question: should we let lucy determine the elim as the IC

I think we should settle it now before she gives reads so mafia can't support/oppose the idea based on her reads

I dunno. I feel like we should let wagons happen naturally for wagonomics.

Perhaps we should give lucy the power to force the exe choice if she wants, but leave it uncertain as to whether or not she'll do so or let us choose naturally. That way wagoning decisions we make still matter and we preserve the wagonomics while reserving the ability for our IC to step in and avert a scum directed EOD.

[Creature]

i think it would be more beneficial for lucy to have control over the specific wagons (ie: creating a pool that we eliminate from) instead of choosing the elimination directly. this forces the wolves to either bus their partner or powerwolf if a wolf is in the POE and gives more readable spew, whereas if lucy leads on a town today then the wolves can just kill them with no accountability

not sure if that makes sense but that's my recommendation

Alright I guess I like this

Narrows down the options but still gives some competition

[Jackofhearts2005]

@Alison

Why aren’t you voting me if I’m outted?

[robyn]

i disagree with alison's roxy read, roxy as mafia is impressively coherent and strategic with her posts (i've just wolfed with and then against her)

i don't think she's an outed wolf, if anything she's towny especially because of something that happened before rand

[Alison]

@Alison

Why aren’t you voting me if I’m outted?

This was asked earlier and my response is that Roxy is more outed

[Alison]

Like I've called three people outed and I only have one vote so

[Creature]

and i think i care less about creature's specific meta tells and more about whether his reads are real

and im not convinced that: "drwilgy has a wolflist with town in it, so he must be mafia" is a thought that town!creature would have with the context of him having posted a 0/3 SOLVE FOR THE ENTIRETY OF DA BOIS GAME

Once again this is nowhere a lock for DrWilgy. I think a 0/3 list is usually >rand wolf indicative especially when I see DrWilgy as a player with good reads as town and heavily wolfsiding as wolf.

aorn though I'm no longer wolfleaning DrWilgy.

what changed your mind about wilgy?

I ended up having a discussion with him some pages ago but I guess it was mostly I realized I was being too harsh on him for a not strong reason.

[Alison]

i disagree with alison's roxy read, roxy as mafia is impressively coherent and strategic with her posts (i've just wolfed with and then against her)

i don't think she's an outed wolf, if anything she's towny especially because of something that happened before rand

It's clear she lost her temper and her posts are less coherent and strategic before that; do you think she has a calmer temper as mafia?

[Alison]

i think it would be more beneficial for lucy to have control over the specific wagons (ie: creating a pool that we eliminate from) instead of choosing the elimination directly. this forces the wolves to either bus their partner or powerwolf if a wolf is in the POE and gives more readable spew, whereas if lucy leads on a town today then the wolves can just kill them with no accountability

not sure if that makes sense but that's my recommendation

Think thats fine

[Creature]

i tried to play this cycle intentionally scummy thus far, being widely townread is weird and there are a few possible reasons for it

Wouldn't it have been better for the oracle to draw the NK?

[Seanzie]

Spoiler: show

why do u think that alison's reads are wolf-indicative? i thought that the original post she pointed out from kate was legitimately wolfy, or i could at least understand why someone would take issue with it. do u think the ppl she's pushing (kate/roxy) are town?

I think they sound fake and agenday, incomplete analysis aside.

I don't have a read on them.

Only > rand, not even >> rand. smh

Kate still has not done anything after coming back to the game by the way.

This feels gross.

Most of Alison's posts feel gross.

what feels gross about it?

It doesn't feel like hunting. It feels like trying to make a player look bad to other players.

Town do try to make players look bad to other players but it's when they are convinced that player is scum. Like, there have been a lot of times that (regardless of if I'm correct or not) I've felt like I've had a wolf and people won't follow my vote and I'm just screaming into the void. That's a thing townies do.

But just shade on a player like that D1 for not doing enough? Feels like a thing wolves do.

okay

so then what do you think about alison's original reason for pushing on kate? do you think it looks like alison is talking about kate in a bad faith way?

I agree with SPF that this is a super unexciting game so far. I am just gonna vote the easiest wolf to catch and try to break the game open with associatives.

[VOTE: Kate] aubergine

Also from my limited games with rondo he seems to be playing within his civ meta right now so probably wouldn’t want to vote their today

Just read through once and I for now agree on this. This is almost identical to the way he opened the last game and he was civ. Unless of course, he's doing that to make us think that... anyway nothing about his gameplay pings me thus far.

Lots of pings in this thread for a cold day 1 from many people. I'll have to reread tomorrow for any deeper thoughts.

Explain to me what's obvscum about this post

She agrees with Rondo meta, immediately undermines her own view, then promises a future reread (a reread? Thread was literally 2 pages) that has to happen before she gives any deeper thoughts. It's a waffly nothingburger of a post.

because i can understand why the thought of: "this player isn't doing enough" could be wolfy to say about someone this early into the game, but i also feel like you're singling out that specific post from alison without seeming to factor her original reason for pushing kate in the first place into your analysis. it feels like incomplete analysis

Yeah, that just kinda feels like a bunch of nitpicking. Calling promises of future content wolfy is like....you wait for the content to come or not come. And agreeing with meta and undermining yourself aren't scum indicative in the first place. Does feel bad faith.

As a former math teacher, >> is an incorrect use of > signs.

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

That I would only use for like wrestler or superhero tier lists.

Kate still has not done anything after coming back to the game by the way.

This feels gross.

Most of Alison's posts feel gross.

what feels gross about it?

It doesn't feel like hunting. It feels like trying to make a player look bad to other players.

Town do try to make players look bad to other players but it's when they are convinced that player is scum. Like, there have been a lot of times that (regardless of if I'm correct or not) I've felt like I've had a wolf and people won't follow my vote and I'm just screaming into the void. That's a thing townies do.

But just shade on a player like that D1 for not doing enough? Feels like a thing wolves do.

okay

so then what do you think about alison's original reason for pushing on kate? do you think it looks like alison is talking about kate in a bad faith way?

I agree with SPF that this is a super unexciting game so far. I am just gonna vote the easiest wolf to catch and try to break the game open with associatives.

[VOTE: Kate] aubergine

Also from my limited games with rondo he seems to be playing within his civ meta right now so probably wouldn’t want to vote their today

Just read through once and I for now agree on this. This is almost identical to the way he opened the last game and he was civ. Unless of course, he's doing that to make us think that... anyway nothing about his gameplay pings me thus far.

Lots of pings in this thread for a cold day 1 from many people. I'll have to reread tomorrow for any deeper thoughts.

Explain to me what's obvscum about this post

She agrees with Rondo meta, immediately undermines her own view, then promises a future reread (a reread? Thread was literally 2 pages) that has to happen before she gives any deeper thoughts. It's a waffly nothingburger of a post.

because i can understand why the thought of: "this player isn't doing enough" could be wolfy to say about someone this early into the game, but i also feel like you're singling out that specific post from alison without seeming to factor her original reason for pushing kate in the first place into your analysis. it feels like incomplete analysis

Yeah, that just kinda feels like a bunch of nitpicking. Calling promises of future content wolfy is like....you wait for the content to come or not come. And agreeing with meta and undermining yourself aren't scum indicative in the first place. Does feel bad faith.

Actually given two functions f=f(n) and g=g(n), f>>g means that the limit as n goes to infinity of f/g goes to infinity. Unless you're a number theorist... then f>>g just means g=O(f), which in my opinion is just bad.

Interestingly f>>g does not imply f>g in either case.

[Porscha]

Current leans
@Porscha town === post 204 which part are you referring to specifically? (Equity with falcon but probably just town) And what do you mean by post 61? If you town read me can you articulate why?

Spoiler: show

Or you can ignore all of this Im not your mum

Sorry only answering what was directed at me
1) uh, specifically the part about lucy. I thought that was pretty clear lol
2) I was assuming a reason to think why they would say that about you because so far you havent personally pinged me, but I understand if someone is less familiar with you then that tends to be the general sentiment of how others feel towards you lol
3) you can have a TL specifically for this post because it's pretty try hard but I wasnt tr'ing you before it and frankly I think you're still possibly within wolf meta as well as town meta so I am letting you sit in the slow cooker for now

[Creature]

i disagree with alison's roxy read, roxy as mafia is impressively coherent and strategic with her posts (i've just wolfed with and then against her)

i don't think she's an outed wolf, if anything she's towny especially because of something that happened before rand

So she's polite and soft-spoken when she gets a red role PM in her inbox?

[tutuu]

id townread myself for doubting lucy's claim
but then if im aware of it its no longer towny
but then if im honest about this thought crossing my mind and i put it in the thread - maybe thats good?
or is it bad? coz im being self-aware for no reason?
but can u truly say its for no reason? can u truly say people dont think about themselves at all times? no u cant
is my brain small and smooth? why yes it is
but
yeah man

[Alison]

i disagree with alison's roxy read, roxy as mafia is impressively coherent and strategic with her posts (i've just wolfed with and then against her)

i don't think she's an outed wolf, if anything she's towny especially because of something that happened before rand

So she's polite and soft-spoken when she gets a red role PM in her inbox?

Kate who's apparently experienced with Roxy says otherwise

[Porscha]

Me slep me wake me go werk I'll try to pop in and do more catch up during day but I awoke with many pages to read so I'll probably end up staying behind if this rate of posting keeps up lol

[Baudib1]

i tried to play this cycle intentionally scummy thus far, being widely townread is weird and there are a few possible reasons for it

Wouldn't it have been better for the oracle to draw the NK?

I think Lucy was trying to draw heat and attempt to make reads odd that, knowing that she had a trump card to prevent her elimination.

[robyn]

i disagree with alison's roxy read, roxy as mafia is impressively coherent and strategic with her posts (i've just wolfed with and then against her)

i don't think she's an outed wolf, if anything she's towny especially because of something that happened before rand

It's clear she lost her temper and her posts are less coherent and strategic before that; do you think she has a calmer temper as mafia?

yes, absolutely. i think you've just tilted her. in her mafia games there was pretty obvious agenda behind every post, i don't see that here. and we kinda talked on dc how she would try to keep a calmer temper in general

[tutuu]

i disagree with alison's roxy read, roxy as mafia is impressively coherent and strategic with her posts (i've just wolfed with and then against her)

i don't think she's an outed wolf, if anything she's towny especially because of something that happened before rand

It's clear she lost her temper and her posts are less coherent and strategic before that; do you think she has a calmer temper as mafia?

yes, absolutely. i think you've just tilted her. in her mafia games there was pretty obvious agenda behind every post, i don't see that here. and we kinda talked on dc how she would try to keep a calmer temper in general

ok

[VOTE: Creature] aubergine

[Alison]

i disagree with alison's roxy read, roxy as mafia is impressively coherent and strategic with her posts (i've just wolfed with and then against her)

i don't think she's an outed wolf, if anything she's towny especially because of something that happened before rand

It's clear she lost her temper and her posts are less coherent and strategic before that; do you think she has a calmer temper as mafia?

yes, absolutely. i think you've just tilted her. in her mafia games there was pretty obvious agenda behind every post, i don't see that here. and we kinda talked on dc how she would try to keep a calmer temper in general

Then I could tilt her even if she is mafia, therefore bypassing her usual meta of coherent and strategic posts.

[Alison]

I don't get how the private convo about keeping a calmer temper matters at all since she clearly didn't follow that advice

[Seanzie]

Next question: should we let lucy determine the elim as the IC

I think we should settle it now before she gives reads so mafia can't support/oppose the idea based on her reads

I dunno. I feel like we should let wagons happen naturally for wagonomics.

Perhaps we should give lucy the power to force the exe choice if she wants, but leave it uncertain as to whether or not she'll do so or let us choose naturally. That way wagoning decisions we make still matter and we preserve the wagonomics while reserving the ability for our IC to step in and avert a scum directed EOD.

This does not work in practice.

I'm just going to play like normal.

[robyn]

alison, 100 post count with no lift before eod

[tutuu]

*magically puts more pressure on baudi and porscha coz they're getting townreads and i dont LIKE IT*

[Seanzie]

Hot take: Alison/Roxy is w/w.

Do I believe it? I don't know. But it is a hot take.

[Baudib1]

*magically puts more pressure on baudi and porscha coz they're getting townreads and i dont LIKE IT*

Sure

[robyn]

i tried to play this cycle intentionally scummy thus far, being widely townread is weird and there are a few possible reasons for it

Wouldn't it have been better for the oracle to draw the NK?

i don't get nked here in this playlist until d3-4, optimal play is to increase town influence and IC myself early as that's more pro town

[robyn]

Hot take: Alison/Roxy is w/w.

Do I believe it? I don't know. But it is a hot take.

bad take, feels v/v

[tutuu]

*magically puts more pressure on baudi and porscha coz they're getting townreads and i dont LIKE IT*

Sure

be afraid. be scared. be wary.

[Seanzie]

*magically puts more pressure on baudi and porscha coz they're getting townreads and i dont LIKE IT*

Baudi could easily be someone offsite who is quite good and are getting townread because they are new and not obvwolf, so yeah, I'm kind of okay with that.

I don't know them so I can't comment on if that is likely or not.

Porscha feels fine.

[robyn]

► Show Spoiler

Alison
1
6%
Voters: Jackofhearts2005
Baudib1
0
No votes
Voters: None
Bereft
0
No votes
Voters: None
Creature
4
24%
Voters: RondoDimBuckle, tutuu, MacDougall, staypositivefriend
Dennis
1
6%
Voters: Seanzie
DrWilgy
0
No votes
Voters: None
falcon45ca
0
No votes
Voters: None
fingersplints
0
No votes
Voters: None
Jackofhearts2005
1
6%
Voters: Baudib1
Kate
0
No votes
Voters: None
lucy
0
No votes
Voters: None
MacDougall
0
No votes
Voters: None
Neon
0
No votes
Voters: None
Porscha
0
No votes
Voters: None
RondoDimBuckle
1
6%
Voters: falcon45ca
Roxy
3
18%
Voters: sig, Creature, Alison
Seanzie
2
12%
Voters: DrWilgy, Neon
sig
0
No votes
Voters: None
staypositivefriend
0
No votes
Voters: None
tutuu
0
No votes
Voters: None

[Jackofhearts2005]

well, since we can all agree that Alison and Roxy are either w/w, v/w or v/v, we should infoyeet Alison.

[Seanzie]

Hot take: Alison/Roxy is w/w.

Do I believe it? I don't know. But it is a hot take.

bad take, feels v/v

That's a boring cold take.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Also, just assume that everything happens for a reason, including rands.

Ergo, you can townread Seanzie, me, Creature, Falcon, Porscha and you can scumread Alison, Wilgy.

[Baudib1]

Some people are born great
Others have greatness thrust upon them
Sometimes you should just yeet Jack

[Jackofhearts2005]

Some people are born great
Others have greatness thrust upon them
Sometimes you should just yeet Jack

I mean, in theory, you should try to yeet me every D1 to immediately determine my alignment.

In practice, I'm obviously town so what are you doing?

[Jackofhearts2005]

Alison/Baudib at least not w/w, which is neat.

[Baudib1]

Alison/Baudib at least not w/w, which is neat.

Wrong we are obv w/w

[Jackofhearts2005]

Alison/Baudib at least not w/w, which is neat.

Wrong we are obv w/w

I know you're the last person I have to say this to but I just don't think that Alison ever asks for or her teammate ever feels the need to chainsaw defend her with a meh push on me. Like you let Alison handle it herself, you silence me with nks, you bus Alison. She doesn't want or need your help.

[Baudib1]

Alison/Baudib at least not w/w, which is neat.

Wrong we are obv w/w

I know you're the last person I have to say this to but I just don't think that Alison ever asks for or her teammate ever feels the need to chainsaw defend her with a meh push on me. Like you let Alison handle it herself, you silence me with nks, you bus Alison. She doesn't want or need your help.

That’s not how I would handle it.
I’m not a fan of preflip associative reads at all and in general people overestimate their ability to make sense of associative reads postflip anyway.
I assure you there’s nothing in this hand I couldn’t do as W/W with anyone.

[falcon45ca]

[VOTE: Baudi] aubergine

[tutuu]

[VOTE: Baudi] aubergine

[VOTE: Baudi] aubergine

mf scum sit the FUCK down son i aint got time for ur BS

bark for me doggie! say woof woof!

[Bereft]

Next question: should we let lucy determine the elim as the IC

I think we should settle it now before she gives reads so mafia can't support/oppose the idea based on her reads

No.

I will take this opportunity to state in advance in response to whoever it was that thought card usage discussion is useful, that I will take full advantage of "antitown" cards. They're not "antitown" if used correctly. Wish I remembered who I'm responding to.

[Baudib1]

Next question: should we let lucy determine the elim as the IC

I think we should settle it now before she gives reads so mafia can't support/oppose the idea based on her reads

No.

I will take this opportunity to state in advance in response to whoever it was that thought card usage discussion is useful, that I will take full advantage of "antitown" cards. They're not "antitown" if used correctly. Wish I remembered who I'm responding to.

I agree. It was tutuu

[sig]

We just voted off falcon day 1 so we can’t do that again this game

Did you vote for me? Why or why not?

I don’t think I had subbed in by then actually, but it seemed like a very dumb reason to vote for you and you were civ. With people like you, me and Wilgy it’s common for us to get booted d1/2 for dumb stuff so I’m always against these types of ealry votes

[Bereft]

i tried to play this cycle intentionally scummy thus far, being widely townread is weird and there are a few possible reasons for it

The correct reason is that you do not have a good idea of what makes a look person scummy.

[sig]

[VOTE: sig] aubergine

serious cap time.


This is actually a really bad vote and look for creature. We’ve played enough over the years he’s getting an

Why is this vote in particular so bad? I mean he didn't explain it at all, is there some history between you two that I don't know?

Not explaining his vote and swooping in just to cast a vote and leave is in itself odd.

Creature was very active back in the day when I was voted out early and always when I was civ. So any old school player that hasn’t been around for awhile that votes for me early is a red flag especially when they don’t contribute at all besides voting