Cartomancy [Game Over]

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

I decided to fact check myself because I often internally confuse games I played with Alison and Anne internally and mix them up.

Now that I've done that I've concluded the game I was thinking of was indeed with Alison and so I feel comfortable in saying a great majority of my problem with Alison this game stems from her treatment of Roxy and how it has internally pinged me as a recreation of the way I was treated by Alison in King of the Hill mafia. It's possible that maybe I would've been treated similarly if Alison was in fact town in that game but I haven't felt like Alison's attempts to engage Roxy were done to solve Roxy or find common ground or understanding I've felt that Alison's approach to Roxy was designed to illicit a negative emotional response that she could than paint as a wolfy response in a very similar way to how I felt Alison was attempting to illicit a negative response instead of try to understand or engage or solve me in King of the Hill.

I do not think that approach is towny. If I'm wrong I'd love for people to help me see where my thoughts are diverging from reality.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

should I just not bother trying to catch up on today's posts or like what is the issue here lol

Pls catch up

[Porscha]

oh nvm tutuu is just trolling me i'm going back to reading

[tutuu]

Ooooooo....
yes vote me off I do not feel like keeping up with this game anyways.
You'll be doing me a favor - the town not so much.

Then you will go next. Then Creature. Yay!

world record self vote and ate pace, beating out neon and wisp's previous runs

This is hurtful

this been on my mind, i considered not saying nothing but i wanna
just giving u advice!: its only hurtful if you make the connection of "alison says something about me i dont like" -> "my self worth is determined by what others say about me" -> "i feel sad"
relinquishing emotional control to others is no way to live! much healthier way to deal with this situation is having the thought: "alison says something about me that i dont like, and even though i dont like it, its got nothing to do with me, its her stuff, not mine. my emotions are the results of my thoughts. i can control my thoughts at any given time, therefore i can control my emotions at any given time. only i determine what i feel at any given moment"
telling her off is understandable, its about respect, but im just making a point on a strategy to not feel bad about stuff like this internally, aside from the stuff that ends up being said externally

[Baudib1]

I decided to fact check myself because I often internally confuse games I played with Alison and Anne internally and mix them up.

Now that I've done that I've concluded the game I was thinking of was indeed with Alison and so I feel comfortable in saying a great majority of my problem with Alison this game stems from her treatment of Roxy and how it has internally pinged me as a recreation of the way I was treated by Alison in King of the Hill mafia. It's possible that maybe I would've been treated similarly if Alison was in fact town in that game but I haven't felt like Alison's attempts to engage Roxy were done to solve Roxy or find common ground or understanding I've felt that Alison's approach to Roxy was designed to illicit a negative emotional response that she could than paint as a wolfy response in a very similar way to how I felt Alison was attempting to illicit a negative response instead of try to understand or engage or solve me in King of the Hill.

I do not think that approach is towny. If I'm wrong I'd love for people to help me see where my thoughts are diverging from reality.

I think it’s very possible it could be standard T/T spat and/or NAI for either as I think there’s a serious playstyle conflict between the two and Alison’s response to Roxy’s AtE is somewhat policy driven.

In a vacuum I don’t think many (if any) mafia take this aggro an approach to early game.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

As for Baudib I find it an odd approach to try to paint my wolf reads as TWTBAW. If you think my reads are entirely off base you should think I'm a wolf you shouldn't be hedging on me like "well yanno maybe they are just so incredibly wrong they are town" if I'm so incredibly wrong I think you should just kill me honestly.

But my main problem is I don't see how a town player sees someone who's looking at the game with a different worldview and their immediate reaction is lol to wolfu to be a woofer instead of going "oh yanno what maybe I should try to get an understanding of what they are seeing" and especially on D1 where we have an extremely limited cone of vision and we are all pushing reads based on our own individual understanding of what we are seeing.

Just because my world view differs and my thought process differs doesn't mean I'm wolfy it might just mean I'm seeing something different and my brain approaches mafia differently.

I feel lie I've attempted to work with others even where I disagree and find it to be incredibly odd to try to paint me this way.

[tutuu]

Tutuu, I demand you ISO Jack and quote one post that you think has genuine thought. If you think Alison is likely torn you should probably think his posts are a steaming pile of garbage (they are) and that he will flip wolf (he will).

well if u so assertive how can i say no blush emoje

i dont wanna iso him though i roughly remember some stuff. i thought him calling alison's posts gross was genuine. i saw it as emotional more than anything. his first post "i only rand town, im probably garbage now, might as well get it over now" felt real. his post about alison double psychology mumbo jumbo getting him to scumread him and stuff - it felt real to me

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

I decided to fact check myself because I often internally confuse games I played with Alison and Anne internally and mix them up.

Now that I've done that I've concluded the game I was thinking of was indeed with Alison and so I feel comfortable in saying a great majority of my problem with Alison this game stems from her treatment of Roxy and how it has internally pinged me as a recreation of the way I was treated by Alison in King of the Hill mafia. It's possible that maybe I would've been treated similarly if Alison was in fact town in that game but I haven't felt like Alison's attempts to engage Roxy were done to solve Roxy or find common ground or understanding I've felt that Alison's approach to Roxy was designed to illicit a negative emotional response that she could than paint as a wolfy response in a very similar way to how I felt Alison was attempting to illicit a negative response instead of try to understand or engage or solve me in King of the Hill.

I do not think that approach is towny. If I'm wrong I'd love for people to help me see where my thoughts are diverging from reality.

I think it’s very possible it could be standard T/T spat and/or NAI for either as I think there’s a serious playstyle conflict between the two and Alison’s response to Roxy’s AtE is somewhat policy driven.

In a vacuum I don’t think many (if any) mafia take this aggro an approach to early game.

Why do you think it'd be abnormal for mafia to be aggro early? In my experience many mafia go aggressive early and iirc I've seen Alison play exactly that early aggro style in the game in drawing reference from.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Tutuu, I demand you ISO Jack and quote one post that you think has genuine thought. If you think Alison is likely torn you should probably think his posts are a steaming pile of garbage (they are) and that he will flip wolf (he will).

well if u so assertive how can i say no blush emoje

i dont wanna iso him though i roughly remember some stuff. i thought him calling alison's posts gross was genuine. i saw it as emotional more than anything. his first post "i only rand town, im probably garbage now, might as well get it over now" felt real. his post about alison double psychology mumbo jumbo getting him to scumread him and stuff - it felt real to me

Okay I officially love you

[Porscha]

I think I vote yes for letting lucy call the exe

this sounds a lot like kingmaker and i'm not a fan of it as a concept

is there a difference between them or

[Alison]

I want Alison to dive deeper into a Creature read

I looked through Creature's posts. Tonally he feels okay; I don't feel his confidence is as overstated as SPF suggests, except in the sense that he doesn't second-guess his every move any more (which is within his town range, I've seen him do it). I tend to think a lot of his exaggerated fear and pessimism tends to crop up around EOD and he usually isn't that down on himself early D1. So I don't think the "confidence charge" is a compelling argument against him.

I've spoken about how pingponging between voting me and the person I am tunnelling is characteristic of town Creature. I don't think his behavior is weird in that regard. I don't really understand his reads (and I think this is part of SPF's case against him, with the 0/3 stuff) but I usually don't.

Honestly as I read through his ISO I find very little of it wolfy. I don't really want to vote him out today.

[Alison]

I think I vote yes for letting lucy call the exe

this sounds a lot like kingmaker and i'm not a fan of it as a concept

is there a difference between them or

Kingmaker gives power to the scummiest player. This gives power to the towniest.

[tutuu]

I think I vote yes for letting lucy call the exe

this sounds a lot like kingmaker and i'm not a fan of it as a concept

is there a difference between them or

kingmaker is when there's 3 factions, one of them can't win, so they decide which one wins at the end. for instance town, mafia, 3p at f3. it sucks coz it ends up being like survivor or a popularity thing and not mafia game

in this case the idea isnt like that, iss like lucy is town so she gets to be a dictator

normally thats ok BUT SHE IS VOTING FOR ME. WHICH IS NOT GOOD. SO YES THIS IS LIKE KINGMAKER. BAD! BAD LUCY!

[Alison]

I decided to fact check myself because I often internally confuse games I played with Alison and Anne internally and mix them up.

Now that I've done that I've concluded the game I was thinking of was indeed with Alison and so I feel comfortable in saying a great majority of my problem with Alison this game stems from her treatment of Roxy and how it has internally pinged me as a recreation of the way I was treated by Alison in King of the Hill mafia. It's possible that maybe I would've been treated similarly if Alison was in fact town in that game but I haven't felt like Alison's attempts to engage Roxy were done to solve Roxy or find common ground or understanding I've felt that Alison's approach to Roxy was designed to illicit a negative emotional response that she could than paint as a wolfy response in a very similar way to how I felt Alison was attempting to illicit a negative response instead of try to understand or engage or solve me in King of the Hill.

I do not think that approach is towny. If I'm wrong I'd love for people to help me see where my thoughts are diverging from reality.

Why is this scummy? You've seen me do it as scum, sure. But you've never seen a town game of mine (so you wouldn't know if I also do it as town), and the act itself is inherently townie. What makes you so confident that this behavior is emblematic of my scum approach but not my town approach, in the face of people like Mac and SPF who have a thousand games with me telling you otherwise?

[tutuu]

Tutuu, I demand you ISO Jack and quote one post that you think has genuine thought. If you think Alison is likely torn you should probably think his posts are a steaming pile of garbage (they are) and that he will flip wolf (he will).

well if u so assertive how can i say no blush emoje

i dont wanna iso him though i roughly remember some stuff. i thought him calling alison's posts gross was genuine. i saw it as emotional more than anything. his first post "i only rand town, im probably garbage now, might as well get it over now" felt real. his post about alison double psychology mumbo jumbo getting him to scumread him and stuff - it felt real to me

Okay I officially love you

Spoiler: show

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

I decided to fact check myself because I often internally confuse games I played with Alison and Anne internally and mix them up.

Now that I've done that I've concluded the game I was thinking of was indeed with Alison and so I feel comfortable in saying a great majority of my problem with Alison this game stems from her treatment of Roxy and how it has internally pinged me as a recreation of the way I was treated by Alison in King of the Hill mafia. It's possible that maybe I would've been treated similarly if Alison was in fact town in that game but I haven't felt like Alison's attempts to engage Roxy were done to solve Roxy or find common ground or understanding I've felt that Alison's approach to Roxy was designed to illicit a negative emotional response that she could than paint as a wolfy response in a very similar way to how I felt Alison was attempting to illicit a negative response instead of try to understand or engage or solve me in King of the Hill.

I do not think that approach is towny. If I'm wrong I'd love for people to help me see where my thoughts are diverging from reality.

Why is this scummy? You've seen me do it as scum, sure. But you've never seen a town game of mine (so you wouldn't know if I also do it as town), and the act itself is inherently townie. What makes you so confident that this behavior is emblematic of my scum approach but not my town approach, in the face of people like Mac and SPF who have a thousand games with me telling you otherwise?

I don't think the act itself is towny at all. I don't think town should be trying to create a toxic thread state to force emotional reactions to push narratives. I don't think that helps anyone.

Town should be approaching people in good faith in an attempt to understand them and push the game towards positive resolutions. 2 towns may come to 2 entirely different world views reading the same posts its far more beneficial that they try to understand each other's perspectives and read into weather the perspective difference is caused by a wolfy agenda or a town seeing things in a different way. But turning the thread state negative to illicit emotional reactions instead of understanding prevents town cohesion and benefits only scum therefore it is scummy.

Your right I've seen you do this as scum and not town and it may well be within your town range but if I see a similar recreation of a scenario I've seen scum you do before im going to read it as scummy.

[tutuu]

nah neon-chan alison-chan does the same as town this aint no wolftell (source: trust)

[tutuu]

lucy finna chop my ass man i feel it, i feel it, she hatin iss cool though, thats how it be

[Alison]

I decided to fact check myself because I often internally confuse games I played with Alison and Anne internally and mix them up.

Now that I've done that I've concluded the game I was thinking of was indeed with Alison and so I feel comfortable in saying a great majority of my problem with Alison this game stems from her treatment of Roxy and how it has internally pinged me as a recreation of the way I was treated by Alison in King of the Hill mafia. It's possible that maybe I would've been treated similarly if Alison was in fact town in that game but I haven't felt like Alison's attempts to engage Roxy were done to solve Roxy or find common ground or understanding I've felt that Alison's approach to Roxy was designed to illicit a negative emotional response that she could than paint as a wolfy response in a very similar way to how I felt Alison was attempting to illicit a negative response instead of try to understand or engage or solve me in King of the Hill.

I do not think that approach is towny. If I'm wrong I'd love for people to help me see where my thoughts are diverging from reality.

Why is this scummy? You've seen me do it as scum, sure. But you've never seen a town game of mine (so you wouldn't know if I also do it as town), and the act itself is inherently townie. What makes you so confident that this behavior is emblematic of my scum approach but not my town approach, in the face of people like Mac and SPF who have a thousand games with me telling you otherwise?

I don't think the act itself is towny at all. I don't think town should be trying to create a toxic thread state to force emotional reactions to push narratives. I don't think that helps anyone.

Town should be approaching people in good faith in an attempt to understand them and push the game towards positive resolutions. 2 towns may come to 2 entirely different world views reading the same posts its far more beneficial that they try to understand each other's perspectives and read into weather the perspective difference is caused by a wolfy agenda or a town seeing things in a different way. But turning the thread state negative to illicit emotional reactions instead of understanding prevents town cohesion and benefits only scum therefore it is scummy.

Your right I've seen you do this as scum and not town and it may well be within your town range but if I see a similar recreation of a scenario I've seen scum you do before im going to read it as scummy.

You don't think town should be pressuring scum to get them to crack?

Interesting that you don't seem to care at all that it is within my town range. Almost like you are uninterested in approaching me in good faith and are just trying to paint me as scummy using an interpretation of how to play town that any mafia player with more than 5 games under their belt is unlikely to believe. Under your logic, you are outed.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

I decided to fact check myself because I often internally confuse games I played with Alison and Anne internally and mix them up.

Now that I've done that I've concluded the game I was thinking of was indeed with Alison and so I feel comfortable in saying a great majority of my problem with Alison this game stems from her treatment of Roxy and how it has internally pinged me as a recreation of the way I was treated by Alison in King of the Hill mafia. It's possible that maybe I would've been treated similarly if Alison was in fact town in that game but I haven't felt like Alison's attempts to engage Roxy were done to solve Roxy or find common ground or understanding I've felt that Alison's approach to Roxy was designed to illicit a negative emotional response that she could than paint as a wolfy response in a very similar way to how I felt Alison was attempting to illicit a negative response instead of try to understand or engage or solve me in King of the Hill.

I do not think that approach is towny. If I'm wrong I'd love for people to help me see where my thoughts are diverging from reality.

Why is this scummy? You've seen me do it as scum, sure. But you've never seen a town game of mine (so you wouldn't know if I also do it as town), and the act itself is inherently townie. What makes you so confident that this behavior is emblematic of my scum approach but not my town approach, in the face of people like Mac and SPF who have a thousand games with me telling you otherwise?

I don't think the act itself is towny at all. I don't think town should be trying to create a toxic thread state to force emotional reactions to push narratives. I don't think that helps anyone.

Town should be approaching people in good faith in an attempt to understand them and push the game towards positive resolutions. 2 towns may come to 2 entirely different world views reading the same posts its far more beneficial that they try to understand each other's perspectives and read into weather the perspective difference is caused by a wolfy agenda or a town seeing things in a different way. But turning the thread state negative to illicit emotional reactions instead of understanding prevents town cohesion and benefits only scum therefore it is scummy.

Your right I've seen you do this as scum and not town and it may well be within your town range but if I see a similar recreation of a scenario I've seen scum you do before im going to read it as scummy.

You don't think town should be pressuring scum to get them to crack?

Interesting that you don't seem to care at all that it is within my town range. Almost like you are uninterested in approaching me in good faith and are just trying to paint me as scummy using an interpretation of how to play town that any mafia player with more than 5 games under their belt is unlikely to believe. Under your logic, you are outed.

This is a disingenuous interpretation of what amounts to

I haven't seen you do it as town

I have seen you do it as wolf.

Ergo I would initially read it as wolfy and ask others to help me see if I'm wrong.

Which I did in that post and which Tutuu has now at least said oh yes that is true. I'm not going to take your word for it I was looking for input.

Actually specifically I want to see what spf has to say on the similarities I'm seeing between these 2 pushes since SPF was also in that game. So was Mac. I think they would provide me the greatest insight. I'm hardly ignoring input though.



And no.

I don't think town should be pressuring wolfs in a way that is detrimental to thread health and intentionally designed to illicit a negative emotional response no. I think it's quite possible to pressure scum and get them to cream without pushing their emotional boundaries.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Cream... crack... yes phone these are similar things and you should auto correct that

[Alison]

Two people other than tutuu have said it was true and you seemed completely uninterested in their takes. What is it about tutuu's vouchsafe that makes you care more than SPF's or Mac's?

I don't think town should be pressuring wolfs in a way that is detrimental to thread health and intentionally designed to illicit a negative emotional response no. I think it's quite possible to pressure scum and get them to cream without pushing their emotional boundaries.

What a nonsensical view of my treatment of Roxy. I never pushed her "emotional boundaries". Every one of my posts was a targeted probe at her alignment or a targeted attempt to get others to see how scummy she's being. At no point did I bring in emotions or personal affairs. She is tilted because she was caught, not because of some nonsense about boundaries.

[Porscha]

I think I vote yes for letting lucy call the exe

this sounds a lot like kingmaker and i'm not a fan of it as a concept

is there a difference between them or

Kingmaker gives power to the scummiest player. This gives power to the towniest.

I think I vote yes for letting lucy call the exe

this sounds a lot like kingmaker and i'm not a fan of it as a concept

is there a difference between them or

kingmaker is when there's 3 factions, one of them can't win, so they decide which one wins at the end. for instance town, mafia, 3p at f3. it sucks coz it ends up being like survivor or a popularity thing and not mafia game

in this case the idea isnt like that, iss like lucy is town so she gets to be a dictator

normally thats ok BUT SHE IS VOTING FOR ME. WHICH IS NOT GOOD. SO YES THIS IS LIKE KINGMAKER. BAD! BAD LUCY!

lol I see... and that's why you always kills survivor claims in tos-like mafia games
I definitely had an incorrect perception of what kingmaker was

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Two people other than tutuu have said it was true and you seemed completely uninterested in their takes. What is it about tutuu's vouchsafe that makes you care more than SPF's or Mac's?

I don't think town should be pressuring wolfs in a way that is detrimental to thread health and intentionally designed to illicit a negative emotional response no. I think it's quite possible to pressure scum and get them to cream without pushing their emotional boundaries.

What a nonsensical view of my treatment of Roxy. I never pushed her "emotional boundaries". Every one of my posts was a targeted probe at her alignment or a targeted attempt to get others to see how scummy she's being. At no point did I bring in emotions or personal affairs. She is tilted because she was caught, not because of some nonsense about boundaries.

Two people have not approached me about my concerns that the play itself is a recreation of King of the Hill. That's what I need to hear from them Alison. I would like to see if they understand my concerns and if they think they are valid and why or why not should I ignore them. I had not brought this up before that so while I freely acknowledge that and have taken into account their stance I need to hear what they say in light of my direct concern to its similarities to a wolf game not its relevance as a meta read in general.


I think you vs Roxy was a segment of the game that was entirely unnecessary in the way it was conducted and that made the thread state heavy to read through in a way that bothered me and I don't think that benefits town. I'm not Roxy I won't speak for her maybe I'm wrong but I don't think you're approach to her was positive or in good faith in any way

[tutuu]

enough of this alison vs neon catfight cmon GIRLS yall just going in circles. we better than that. we arent dogs chasing our tails!

[Alison]

You're right, my approach to Roxy was not positive. I don't tend to approach my scumreads positively. I don't care if it made the game state hard for you to read through, if you don't like reading people arguing then don't play mafia. It benefits town because it exposed Roxy as flailing and breaking down under pressure which is an extremely scummy move and may well have outed a mafia.

You seem to be extremely skeptical of the concept of pressuring a suspect. Even excessively nice players like JJJ don't take that kind of view. I know you're not new to mafia, so either you are an abnormal player or you are making this all up. Which is it?

[tutuu]

alison likes going ham and neon is emotional done debate solved gg next u both town

now id look cool af if i know a wolf and be like "BUT THIS DUDE IS A WOLF KILL HIS ASS" and now u two combine and join forces BAM BAM BAM the enemies of yesterday ARE THE FRIENDS OF TOMORROW just like lelouche and suzaku in ending of code geass and u wombo combo his wolf ass jab hook jab hook hell yea

and then u shake hands and say "gg" and the sigma male grindset music plays in the background

[RondoDimBuckle]

alison likes going ham and neon is emotional done debate solved gg next u both town

now id look cool af if i know a wolf and be like "BUT THIS DUDE IS A WOLF KILL HIS ASS" and now u two combine and join forces BAM BAM BAM the enemies of yesterday ARE THE FRIENDS OF TOMORROW just like lelouche and suzaku in ending of code geass and u wombo combo his wolf ass jab hook jab hook hell yea

and then u shake hands and say "gg" and the sigma male grindset music plays in the background

You and Alison rushing to post cap does not fill me with confidence

[tutuu]

alison likes going ham and neon is emotional done debate solved gg next u both town

now id look cool af if i know a wolf and be like "BUT THIS DUDE IS A WOLF KILL HIS ASS" and now u two combine and join forces BAM BAM BAM the enemies of yesterday ARE THE FRIENDS OF TOMORROW just like lelouche and suzaku in ending of code geass and u wombo combo his wolf ass jab hook jab hook hell yea

and then u shake hands and say "gg" and the sigma male grindset music plays in the background

You and Alison rushing to post cap does not fill me with confidence

DAMN im sorry mister imma cc the oracle 5 quintillion iq giga brain cosmos mind power vegemite snorting kangaroo riding bucko, i gotta do better, u right

[MacDougall]

Spoiler: show

Current leans

@Alison wolf === saved the best for last so you should probably be reading this bottom up (Except for Sig who I am saving for last last). Trying to look for charitable things: Dont hate the kate vote. Dont disagree with the Lucy suss atm. Probably just going to trust Alison on tutuu being town. I think I figured out why Alison is ignoring me: Post 197 outs me as town in the events that Kate flips wolf.
@Baudib1 (I had this wolf but after isoing) town === equity with sig (anyone else think that post 21 is a weird one?) probably town for wanting to off my slot with this player list and clearly has no TMI on who I am and level 0 solving. Not sure if I am confbiasing myself but post 144 is more towny as well. Apparently knows Mac so maybe I shouldnt give them so many town points.
@Bereft dunno (GTH town?) === what is porschas most wolfy post?
@Creature dunno (GTH town) === what is sigs most towny post? (anyone can answer this as well)
@Dennis town === falcon equity and sig equity maybe / Why are you wishy washing on Kate. Make a read, town or wolf? Why not voting for lucy or Neon? Why havent you voted yet?
@DrWilgy dunno (GTH no fucking content)
@falcon45ca town === Why is Bereft Mafia? (anyone can answer this one if they want)
@fingersplints dunno (GTH no fucking content) === splint some fingers
@Jackofhearts2005 wwe (GTH John Cena) === I will place you in a tomb stone hold if you dont post soon
@Kate dunno (GTH wolf) === You t hink I am town, you say my opening is identical to my 'town play' you have seen me open up saying almost nothing, you have seen me town try hard and you have seen me chaos post. How am I in any meta that isnt replicable as a wolf and just town?
@lucy towolf (GTH wolf) === Did you actually care if I ranked the people above or below the line? Why did you give up when I said no? Where is the tryharding? Possibly outed, need more data
@MacDougall town === Can you articulate why you went to ? reading me and then back to town?
@Neon maybe town === You think Mac's read on me is real? Does that mean you town read me or you think Mac town reads me? Why do you or dont you agree with it?
@Porscha town === post 204 which part are you referring to specifically? (Equity with falcon but probably just town) And what do you mean by post 61? If you town read me can you please articulate why?
@RondoDimBuckle IC af === lol my own iso
@Roxy dunno (GTH one post? town)
@Seanzie town == You scum read me on the 'fake' entrance. What if I told you that I do that as town? You can ask Kate
@sig wolf? (GTH Wolf) === Why did you try to undermine my Mac town read? Why are you defending Falcon? Why are you giving me a day 1 pass in a game about suspicion and deceit? What specifically do you like about Sean / Baud's post? When do you plan on doing any actual solving?
@staypositivefriend dunno (GTH wolf) === you have made zero posts towards me and I have been one of the most active in the game. Why? I would like to hear more about post 153? please explain.
@tutuu towolf (GTH town but I may be pocketed, can be wolf with sig or creature, tripple rule of three in post 142 and I dont like her calling me an easy town read could be TMI but she might just think she can read me easy) === You have me as town last I checked

===== read bottom up (except sig last) ==== ^
===== read top to bottom ==== v

What do you read me as and why?


Also I do not believe everyone who was "bored" after my bored post was genuine, maybe 1 wolf


I was going to drop a quick read list, then I started ISOing people I hadnt seen post and I figured while I was at it I may as well ruin my sleep schedule and hate myself in the morning and do a full ISO sweep of the game

and

while I am at it put a huge target on my back by placing a kill list

(A) Kate > (B) Sig > (C) Lucy > (D)(One of Alison/Mac)

A - if kate flips wolf, analyse spew (or lack of and continue with kill list)
B - if Sig flips wolf, analyse spew (or lack of and continue with kill list)
C - if lucy flips wolf, anal- win the game


A - if kate flips town > kill counter wagon and so on till finding wolf and then kill most towny player day 4 if 3 consecutive non wolf hits (Hence D. Mac/Alison)
B - as above but +1 day
C - as above but +2 days

Spoiler: show

Or you can ignore all of this Im not your mum

if you havent responded to this post please do. You know who you are

I was contemplating that you and Seanzie might have always had a mafia between you but then I arrived to a snap conclusion you are probably both town.

[MacDougall]

Alison, Creature, Rondo, Baudi, Wilgy



That's been the pretty consistent wagons thus far this RD. Baudi thinks these are spectacularly bad...despite SR Wilgy for sure, and certainly shading Rondo...that's 2/5 he should have no issue w/ flipping, yet he acts like we've got spectacularly bad wagons.


I don't see how a town thinks like this

Really, 2/4 wagons, cuz I'm sure he doesn't want his own flip.


Half the wagons are for players he's been shading or outright SR...I don't see that as a Town mindset at all

Bruh u cannot get me lynched.

First off it was me Creature and Alison and the town Oracle said she wanted to nuke the wagons so if you don’t think it can be a town POV take it up with our PR. Wilgy became a wagon because Lucy asked for it.

You know PRs can be wrong right?

Ooooh nice, a bonafide wolfy post.

This exchange is about me saying that the wagons (me, Creature, Alison) with 3+ votes were bad and Falcon saying he doesn't see it as a town mindset, and me pointing out that the assertion came from Lucy (IC), which proves it is indeed a town mindset.
So your takeaway from that exchange is to double down and try to discredit me and Lucy and not to agree that Falcon's "i don't see that as a town mindset at all" is not provably false?Interesting.

Neon is wolfy for this ^ post and her vote on Alison.

Jack is an obvwolf for posting 100% nonsense and trolls and wolfily pushing Alison, which makes me think Alison is probably at least partially correct in pushing Kate/Roxy.

Wilgy is an obvwolf for asking pointless questions and adding zero original thought to the thread.

So I see that we have essentially the same reads. This feels like a watershed moment in my life.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

You're right, my approach to Roxy was not positive. I don't tend to approach my scumreads positively. I don't care if it made the game state hard for you to read through, if you don't like reading people arguing then don't play mafia. It benefits town because it exposed Roxy as flailing and breaking down under pressure which is an extremely scummy move and may well have outed a mafia.

You seem to be extremely skeptical of the concept of pressuring a suspect. Even excessively nice players like JJJ don't take that kind of view. I know you're not new to mafia, so either you are an abnormal player or you are making this all up. Which is it?

This approach is simply shit Alison.

You will incorrectly accuse just as many town players of being scum by breaking them down in such a negative way as you will "correctly" find scum.

I don't think you've even found scum. I just think you've pissed off a human being on another side of another screen for no reason.

You catch more flies with honeythan vinegar.

Don't sit here and tell me not to play mafia.

[MacDougall]

okay nice x-post

neon i think the main thing im interested in hearing from u right now is just the strongest reads u have in either direction

The fact that I happened to be on a post from you at the time you said that is both ironic and a coincidence but hey I'll take it.

My way of finding scum is weird but sure.

I don't actually have a strong TR at this point outside of Lucy which is weird and frustrating in that my style is to find town and work down from there to find scum. So I'm in a weird position where I'm working out of a position of discomfort in juxtaposition to how I'd prefer to play the game.

My strongest SR right now I think is Alison/Mac I just think they've been treating people poorly for bad reasons and are digging in their heels in a way that feels less like trying to solve the game and more like trying to make people look bad for things that aren't really that bad.

That is an awfully specific thing to accuse two separate people of being. Kinda feels like bullshit.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

okay nice x-post

neon i think the main thing im interested in hearing from u right now is just the strongest reads u have in either direction

The fact that I happened to be on a post from you at the time you said that is both ironic and a coincidence but hey I'll take it.

My way of finding scum is weird but sure.

I don't actually have a strong TR at this point outside of Lucy which is weird and frustrating in that my style is to find town and work down from there to find scum. So I'm in a weird position where I'm working out of a position of discomfort in juxtaposition to how I'd prefer to play the game.

My strongest SR right now I think is Alison/Mac I just think they've been treating people poorly for bad reasons and are digging in their heels in a way that feels less like trying to solve the game and more like trying to make people look bad for things that aren't really that bad.

That is an awfully specific thing to accuse two separate people of being. Kinda feels like bullshit.

Dunno kinda feels like real to me.

So wanna tell me why me being me is suddenly such a bad way to play mafia compared to every other FM we've played?

[MacDougall]

If I were to play the woofs the most likely mafia on each wagon right now game I'm going

Sig on Alison

Tutuu on Bau

Mac on Creature

Alison off wagon.

That'd be a pretty bad ass wolf team lol

These are the ways that it's possible for you to have these reads.

1. You have excercised no actual process for finding mafia as town, and are just tinfoiling the deepest wolf possible because you are playing with your lizard brain on for some reason and think you're watching reality television.

2. You are mafia.

[tutuu]

cmon guys we all chillin we all friends. we cool

[Alison]

You're right, my approach to Roxy was not positive. I don't tend to approach my scumreads positively. I don't care if it made the game state hard for you to read through, if you don't like reading people arguing then don't play mafia. It benefits town because it exposed Roxy as flailing and breaking down under pressure which is an extremely scummy move and may well have outed a mafia.

You seem to be extremely skeptical of the concept of pressuring a suspect. Even excessively nice players like JJJ don't take that kind of view. I know you're not new to mafia, so either you are an abnormal player or you are making this all up. Which is it?

This approach is simply shit Alison.

You will incorrectly accuse just as many town players of being scum by breaking them down in such a negative way as you will "correctly" find scum.

I don't think you've even found scum. I just think you've pissed off a human being on another side of another screen for no reason.

You catch more flies with honeythan vinegar.

Don't sit here and tell me not to play mafia.

Interesting theory.

Unfortunately the results don't bear it out, as I am successful enough in my town games that I am policy exed if I do not catch a wolf by D2 or D3. What I did to Roxy is that I called them mafia. If being called mafia pisses you off, this is not the game for you. You agree to be pressured, interrogated, and accused of being mafia regardless of your alignment by signing up to the game. And in doing so, I made them switch their views and contradict themselves in the scummiest way possible. Roxy hasn't even posted in the thread since our fight which suggests that she is completely frozen. The fact that you are so defensive of them is suspicious, and the fact that you think pressuring suspects is a shit approach when it has already proven itself to be very effective this game alone suggests that you are either being wilfully ignorant or you have a malicious agenda in trying to undermine my solving.

[MacDougall]

I decided to fact check myself because I often internally confuse games I played with Alison and Anne internally and mix them up.

Now that I've done that I've concluded the game I was thinking of was indeed with Alison and so I feel comfortable in saying a great majority of my problem with Alison this game stems from her treatment of Roxy and how it has internally pinged me as a recreation of the way I was treated by Alison in King of the Hill mafia. It's possible that maybe I would've been treated similarly if Alison was in fact town in that game but I haven't felt like Alison's attempts to engage Roxy were done to solve Roxy or find common ground or understanding I've felt that Alison's approach to Roxy was designed to illicit a negative emotional response that she could than paint as a wolfy response in a very similar way to how I felt Alison was attempting to illicit a negative response instead of try to understand or engage or solve me in King of the Hill.

I do not think that approach is towny. If I'm wrong I'd love for people to help me see where my thoughts are diverging from reality.

I don't necessarily think you are wrong about Alison tbh. I think Alison could be mafia, the problem with that is I have is that she has said nothing I can particularly call her out on. ie. My tinfoil instincts and my brain are at odds. Like my initial reaction to her posts was that I was reading wolf Alison, so I tried to gotcha her on her Kate read, but then ... she was just correct there tbh and Kate has only gotten wolfier. Then she kept choosing the side of most logic every time I read her. And there's like a schism between a mini faction of like Baudib, SPF, her and I who have a large amount of alignment on reads and a whole bunch of people who feel like absolute bullshit artists and your perspectives are more aligned to theirs (Jack, Wilgy, Falcon, you).

I'm not convinced you're mafia, but I am convinced that if you are town that you really are not challenging your own logic and keep throwing ideas out into the thread and I keep wanting to kill you for everything you say lol.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

I decided to fact check myself because I often internally confuse games I played with Alison and Anne internally and mix them up.

Now that I've done that I've concluded the game I was thinking of was indeed with Alison and so I feel comfortable in saying a great majority of my problem with Alison this game stems from her treatment of Roxy and how it has internally pinged me as a recreation of the way I was treated by Alison in King of the Hill mafia. It's possible that maybe I would've been treated similarly if Alison was in fact town in that game but I haven't felt like Alison's attempts to engage Roxy were done to solve Roxy or find common ground or understanding I've felt that Alison's approach to Roxy was designed to illicit a negative emotional response that she could than paint as a wolfy response in a very similar way to how I felt Alison was attempting to illicit a negative response instead of try to understand or engage or solve me in King of the Hill.

I do not think that approach is towny. If I'm wrong I'd love for people to help me see where my thoughts are diverging from reality.

I don't necessarily think you are wrong about Alison tbh. I think Alison could be mafia, the problem with that is I have is that she has said nothing I can particularly call her out on. ie. My tinfoil instincts and my brain are at odds. Like my initial reaction to her posts was that I was reading wolf Alison, so I tried to gotcha her on her Kate read, but then ... she was just correct there tbh and Kate has only gotten wolfier. Then she kept choosing the side of most logic every time I read her. And there's like a schism between a mini faction of like Baudib, SPF, her and I who have a large amount of alignment on reads and a whole bunch of people who feel like absolute bullshit artists and your perspectives are more aligned to theirs (Jack, Wilgy, Falcon, you).

I'm not convinced you're mafia, but I am convinced that if you are town that you really are not challenging your own logic and keep throwing ideas out into the thread and I keep wanting to kill you for everything you say lol.

Thank you Mac.

So like am I wrong to be concerned about the similarities between these two plays because Alison will simply do this identical play irregardless of alignment and because outside of that she's simply been towny?

[MacDougall]

I think I vote yes for letting lucy call the exe

this sounds a lot like kingmaker and i'm not a fan of it as a concept

is there a difference between them or

Day 1 is a crapshoot most of the time. Town have the least amount of information, the mafia are in full form and have the most thread control generally. I'd rather one confirmed town choose, than what is essentially the mafia most of the time.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

You're right, my approach to Roxy was not positive. I don't tend to approach my scumreads positively. I don't care if it made the game state hard for you to read through, if you don't like reading people arguing then don't play mafia. It benefits town because it exposed Roxy as flailing and breaking down under pressure which is an extremely scummy move and may well have outed a mafia.

You seem to be extremely skeptical of the concept of pressuring a suspect. Even excessively nice players like JJJ don't take that kind of view. I know you're not new to mafia, so either you are an abnormal player or you are making this all up. Which is it?

This approach is simply shit Alison.

You will incorrectly accuse just as many town players of being scum by breaking them down in such a negative way as you will "correctly" find scum.

I don't think you've even found scum. I just think you've pissed off a human being on another side of another screen for no reason.

You catch more flies with honeythan vinegar.

Don't sit here and tell me not to play mafia.

Interesting theory.

Unfortunately the results don't bear it out, as I am successful enough in my town games that I am policy exed if I do not catch a wolf by D2 or D3. What I did to Roxy is that I called them mafia. If being called mafia pisses you off, this is not the game for you. You agree to be pressured, interrogated, and accused of being mafia regardless of your alignment by signing up to the game. And in doing so, I made them switch their views and contradict themselves in the scummiest way possible. Roxy hasn't even posted in the thread since our fight which suggests that she is completely frozen. The fact that you are so defensive of them is suspicious, and the fact that you think pressuring suspects is a shit approach when it has already proven itself to be very effective this game alone suggests that you are either being wilfully ignorant or you have a malicious agenda in trying to undermine my solving.

I think there's a stark difference between a positive attempt to aggresively attack someone as mafia and a negative attempt to aggresively attack someone as mafia.

I also dont think you "simply called them mafia"

I also internally feel like Roxy asked you to stop pushing her in a way that was making her feel uncomfortable and you refused.

I think you're inability to reconcile the idea that my thoughts don't mean I think you should never push someone aggresively and rather mean you can do that with positive energy and not illicit intentional negative emotions is weird

You seem to think I'm saying never be aggressive when I'm saying why do you have to be aggressive in such a harsh unnecessary way.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

I think I vote yes for letting lucy call the exe

this sounds a lot like kingmaker and i'm not a fan of it as a concept

is there a difference between them or

Day 1 is a crapshoot most of the time. Town have the least amount of information, the mafia are in full form and have the most thread control generally. I'd rather one confirmed town choose, than what is essentially the mafia most of the time.

What makes confirmed town Lucy any more likely to actually get the correct result than just any other name out of a hat though?

Like is it simply because we know she's town and it doesn't matter she may kill a really important towny just as much as you or I would?

[tutuu]

I think I vote yes for letting lucy call the exe

this sounds a lot like kingmaker and i'm not a fan of it as a concept

is there a difference between them or

Day 1 is a crapshoot most of the time. Town have the least amount of information, the mafia are in full form and have the most thread control generally. I'd rather one confirmed town choose, than what is essentially the mafia most of the time.

What makes confirmed town Lucy any more likely to actually get the correct result than just any other name out of a hat though?

Like is it simply because we know she's town and it doesn't matter she may kill a really important towny just as much as you or I would?

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

I'm going to go work for the next 30 minutes and not look at mafia because I feel like I'm becoming the bitch I've been trying not to be anymore in mafia.

So I'll be back in 30 minutes and hopefully more clear headed

<3 I love you all go town we rock or something.

[Alison]

You're right, my approach to Roxy was not positive. I don't tend to approach my scumreads positively. I don't care if it made the game state hard for you to read through, if you don't like reading people arguing then don't play mafia. It benefits town because it exposed Roxy as flailing and breaking down under pressure which is an extremely scummy move and may well have outed a mafia.

You seem to be extremely skeptical of the concept of pressuring a suspect. Even excessively nice players like JJJ don't take that kind of view. I know you're not new to mafia, so either you are an abnormal player or you are making this all up. Which is it?

This approach is simply shit Alison.

You will incorrectly accuse just as many town players of being scum by breaking them down in such a negative way as you will "correctly" find scum.

I don't think you've even found scum. I just think you've pissed off a human being on another side of another screen for no reason.

You catch more flies with honeythan vinegar.

Don't sit here and tell me not to play mafia.

Interesting theory.

Unfortunately the results don't bear it out, as I am successful enough in my town games that I am policy exed if I do not catch a wolf by D2 or D3. What I did to Roxy is that I called them mafia. If being called mafia pisses you off, this is not the game for you. You agree to be pressured, interrogated, and accused of being mafia regardless of your alignment by signing up to the game. And in doing so, I made them switch their views and contradict themselves in the scummiest way possible. Roxy hasn't even posted in the thread since our fight which suggests that she is completely frozen. The fact that you are so defensive of them is suspicious, and the fact that you think pressuring suspects is a shit approach when it has already proven itself to be very effective this game alone suggests that you are either being wilfully ignorant or you have a malicious agenda in trying to undermine my solving.

I think there's a stark difference between a positive attempt to aggresively attack someone as mafia and a negative attempt to aggresively attack someone as mafia.

I also dont think you "simply called them mafia"

I also internally feel like Roxy asked you to stop pushing her in a way that was making her feel uncomfortable and you refused.

I think you're inability to reconcile the idea that my thoughts don't mean I think you should never push someone aggresively and rather mean you can do that with positive energy and not illicit intentional negative emotions is weird

You seem to think I'm saying never be aggressive when I'm saying why do you have to be aggressive in such a harsh unnecessary way.

Yes of course I refused. My scumreads don't get to dictate how I push them as long as I'm not using personal attacks or taking things out of the game, which I didn't. Have you ever considered that Roxy might be uncomfortable by my push because she is mafia and she is terrified of being caught 4 pages in? No, you haven't, and I'm struggling to decide if this is a TMI slip or not. You keep using the words positive and negative: newsflash, I don't treat mafia members positively. If nobody ever treated them negatively they'll never feel true pressure and they'll never get caught. There is nothing harsh or unnecessary about my style of play. I exert as much pressure as is necessary to get them to tell me their alignment.

That's the last I'll say on this because I suspect you are trying to waste my time with bullshit mafia theory in order to get me to cap. I'll save the rest of my posts for casing and EOD.

[MacDougall]

I decided to fact check myself because I often internally confuse games I played with Alison and Anne internally and mix them up.

Now that I've done that I've concluded the game I was thinking of was indeed with Alison and so I feel comfortable in saying a great majority of my problem with Alison this game stems from her treatment of Roxy and how it has internally pinged me as a recreation of the way I was treated by Alison in King of the Hill mafia. It's possible that maybe I would've been treated similarly if Alison was in fact town in that game but I haven't felt like Alison's attempts to engage Roxy were done to solve Roxy or find common ground or understanding I've felt that Alison's approach to Roxy was designed to illicit a negative emotional response that she could than paint as a wolfy response in a very similar way to how I felt Alison was attempting to illicit a negative response instead of try to understand or engage or solve me in King of the Hill.

I do not think that approach is towny. If I'm wrong I'd love for people to help me see where my thoughts are diverging from reality.

I don't necessarily think you are wrong about Alison tbh. I think Alison could be mafia, the problem with that is I have is that she has said nothing I can particularly call her out on. ie. My tinfoil instincts and my brain are at odds. Like my initial reaction to her posts was that I was reading wolf Alison, so I tried to gotcha her on her Kate read, but then ... she was just correct there tbh and Kate has only gotten wolfier. Then she kept choosing the side of most logic every time I read her. And there's like a schism between a mini faction of like Baudib, SPF, her and I who have a large amount of alignment on reads and a whole bunch of people who feel like absolute bullshit artists and your perspectives are more aligned to theirs (Jack, Wilgy, Falcon, you).

I'm not convinced you're mafia, but I am convinced that if you are town that you really are not challenging your own logic and keep throwing ideas out into the thread and I keep wanting to kill you for everything you say lol.

Thank you Mac.

So like am I wrong to be concerned about the similarities between these two plays because Alison will simply do this identical play irregardless of alignment and because outside of that she's simply been towny?

If anything I think you have Alison caught for the wrong reasons if you do yes. What you are suspecting her for is within her townrange. If she is mafia, I believe she is townsiding and frankly is more likely to be mafia with at least some of those who she is having conflict with in the thread.

Alison kind have has two wolf operating models (with obviously a lot of nuance). Hard wolfside and deep wolf.

Hard wolfside Alison, usually a mode she chooses because of lifestyle factors such as busyness etc, makes up reads, essentially dooming herself to a day 2/3 (sometimes 4) endgame, but with the intent of ruining the town morale, killing townies that shouldn't die and spewing her team clear. You could argue that what you are describing is aligned to that, except for the fact that I (and Baudib and SPF, who are probably town imo), am vibing with her play. When she is in this mode, her day 1 has the inverse effect to what it is having on me right now. I have an overwhelming desire to kill her when she chooses this play style.

Deepwolf Alison, will generally townside a fair bit harder at least optically. She will only push scummy town and in liue of that will spend a lot of time burying scummy teammates. She usually draws the line at outright bussing and often can be caught in this mode by shifting her agenda later in the day away from a townsiding outcome and more towards a wolfsiding outcome.

Alison plays mafia like chess as either alignment and can be read clearer through agenda than on play as most of her tactics appear in her play regardless of her alignment. On day 1 as mafia she is planning the mafia team's endgame and all the days between. So if she is mafia, simply reading her so because she is being a bitch to someone is far too level 1 of a read to actually catch her for. I say that full well knowing you might be right and I might be wrong about her alignment lol. Because at the end of the day, it's not a good read unless you can persuade the rest of the town you're right about it even if you are.

[MacDougall]

I think I vote yes for letting lucy call the exe

this sounds a lot like kingmaker and i'm not a fan of it as a concept

is there a difference between them or

Day 1 is a crapshoot most of the time. Town have the least amount of information, the mafia are in full form and have the most thread control generally. I'd rather one confirmed town choose, than what is essentially the mafia most of the time.

What makes confirmed town Lucy any more likely to actually get the correct result than just any other name out of a hat though?

Like is it simply because we know she's town and it doesn't matter she may kill a really important towny just as much as you or I would?

Because any other name out of a hat has a chance of having mafia in it obviously lol.

[MacDougall]

okay nice x-post

neon i think the main thing im interested in hearing from u right now is just the strongest reads u have in either direction

The fact that I happened to be on a post from you at the time you said that is both ironic and a coincidence but hey I'll take it.

My way of finding scum is weird but sure.

I don't actually have a strong TR at this point outside of Lucy which is weird and frustrating in that my style is to find town and work down from there to find scum. So I'm in a weird position where I'm working out of a position of discomfort in juxtaposition to how I'd prefer to play the game.

My strongest SR right now I think is Alison/Mac I just think they've been treating people poorly for bad reasons and are digging in their heels in a way that feels less like trying to solve the game and more like trying to make people look bad for things that aren't really that bad.

That is an awfully specific thing to accuse two separate people of being. Kinda feels like bullshit.

Dunno kinda feels like real to me.

So wanna tell me why me being me is suddenly such a bad way to play mafia compared to every other FM we've played?

I'm not going to sit here and claim I have better meta knowledge of how you play than you yourself do. If you are town, I am seeing quite a different town Neon than what I am used to seeing at the very least emotionally (and therefore tonally).

My mental model of town Neon has keywords in it like: colourful, diffident, self-critical, deferential, memeish, inconsistent, scattered.

What I am seeing here is: guarded, defensive, forceful, insistent, courageous.

[Porscha]

Current leans

@sig wolf? (GTH Wolf) === Why did you try to undermine my Mac town read? Why are you defending Falcon? Why are you giving me a day 1 pass in a game about suspicion and deceit? What specifically do you like about Sean / Baud's post? When do you plan on doing any actual solving?
@staypositivefriend dunno (GT
(A) Kate > (B) Sig > (C) Lucy > (D)(One of Alison/Mac)

A - if kate flips wolf, analyse spew (or lack of and continue with kill list)
B - if Sig flips wolf, analyse spew (or lack of and continue with kill list)
C - if lucy flips wolf, anal- win the game


A - if kate flips town > kill counter wagon and so on till finding wolf and then kill most towny player day 4 if 3 consecutive non wolf hits (Hence D. Mac/Alison)
B - as above but +1 day
C - as above but +2 days

Spoiler: show

Or you can ignore all of this Im not your mum

First, I don’t like the level of tie in you’re attempting to do this early on, pre any flips. A lot of assumptions are being made and I find that this is more commonly a tactic used by mafia. Especially early game since it allows you to post a lot but say very little.

I alreayd answered the falcon question when talking to him, but basically he’s misvoted a lot and I don’t see much to see why he’s mafia. His posts (up to where I was which was around 10am today) are all pretty normal.

Mac is someone who we shouldn’t hardcore read town day 1 and I said why in my post. I’m not liking some of your questions especially this one since I answered it upfront? Seems like you’re just fishing for a reason to vote for me right now.

The other two were gut feels I like their playstyle so far.

I was against voting you day 1 since I wasn’t seeing the reasons and it seems like you’re misvoted alot.


Now my questions for you.

Why is it odd that I don’t want people to Town Read Mac for doing almost nothing, BUT, it’s also odd for me to not want to vote you out since “this is a game of deception”? You’re Basically making two totally counter arguments/point that don’t fit together at all. This + you questioning me about Mac is raising some flags

Rondo is Maf, so is Mac

Can you... can you elaborate where you're getting this idea from

[Porscha]

Percentage chance of a Mac/Alison W/W world? Like anyone else think that's a possibility right meow? Because it's something I'm buying into more and more during reread.

I retract my neon scumread.

Remember when