Death and Taxes: An Economics Mafia [DAY 7]

[Tangrowth]

RAINBOW SOCKMAN READS #5

JaggedJimmyJay -- (#1 Very slight civilian read, #2, #3 no change, #4 Slight civilian read) -- ELEVATE! Well, I'm still wary of trusting him, but everything points to a civilian Jay. He's making every effort possible to solve the game and especially in Day 2 I am getting genuine vibes from him. Still keeping my eye on him, but he's definitely the player that seems most civilian to me at the moment.

Sloonei -- (#1 Very slight civilian read, #2 Very slight mafia read, #3 Very slight civilian read, #4 Moderate civilian read) -- As I said in #4, "His mafia hunting has been top notch and seems genuine. Up he goes. Don't feel confident enough to raise him above moderate though." This pretty much stands.

sanmateo -- (#1 Very slight mafia read, #2 Very slight civilian read, #3 no change, #4 Strong civilian read) -- DROP! Drops from my top town read to slight civilian read, due to lack of contributions during D2 thus far, more doubt surrounding him, and his quick Elo vote coupled with saying I'm "definitely bad" (yes, I realize I quickly voted for her as well). I also am looking for more detail regarding his reads on everyone at the moment, as he is only issuing opinions on a few players.

birdwithteeth11 -- (#1 No read or unsure, #2, #3 no change, #4 Very slight civilian read) -- I appreciate his contributions, though I want more. So far I feel relatively good about him, but anything is possible.
Dragon D. Luffy -- (#1 Slight civilian read, #2, #3 no change, #4 Very slight civilian read) -- As I said in #4: "Still think he reads genuine, but there's no denying that his vote makes him drop, and his fate could easily be mafia pending Epi's alignment. Appreciate that he ramped up the solid contributions though." I feel about the same, though I'm getting ready to drop him one more. I hope to hear more from him about players soon.
Turnip Head -- (#1 No read or unsure, #2 Very slight civilian read, #3 no change, #4 No read or unsure) -- ELEVATE! Back up to very slight civilian read. I feel just a little bit better about him than I did before, but still haven't been able to discern his intentions. His contributions today were insightful; assuming he continues, he may soon be in my slight civilian reads. Although I did get a bit paranoid of his discussion at times, I think it was coming more from a civilian perspective if I had to choose.

Black Rock -- (#1 No read or unsure, #2 Very slight mafia read, #3 Very slight civilian read, #4 no change) -- DROP! Since she is sick and some good points have been brought up during D2, I'm back to really having no idea whatsoever about BR. Hopefully she feels better and she can properly contribute soon.
Vompatti (Dom) -- (#1 No read or unsure, #2, #3, #4 no change) -- Same as before. POST MORE. Now that it's Vomps, I'm not sure I expect anything, but I've seen a civilian Vomps actually care, so I know it's possible. Let's please see that Vomps again if he is indeed civilian.
G-Man -- (#1 No read or unsure, #2, #3, #4 no change) -- Although it is pretty much certain to me that G-Man's posting is self-inflicted (though I suppose it could be a multi-period curse, but that seems so extremely unlikely), he has been contributing. I'm just unsure what to make of him still, completely.

acrosstheaether -- (#1 No read or unsure, #2, #3, #4 no change) -- DROP! Dropping her because she needs to contribute.
fingersplints -- (#1 No read or unsure, #2, #3 no change, #4 Very slight mafia read) -- As I said in #4: "Dropped her down to very slightly mafia read based on gut interpretation of her posts and her inability to fully substantiate reads, but I could be way off base. Having reevaluated, this is incredibly, incredibly slight." This pretty much still stands. When I asked her for a top read, she couldn't give me one, then she said she still really suspects BR. Seems odd to me. She needs to clarify her reads on players and contribute more or else I will drop her further. Just unsure what to make of her, but still leaning more mafia than not.
Roxy -- (#1 No read or unsure, #2 no change, #3 Very slight civilian read, #4 no change) -- DROP! Jay's ISO, in combination with Rox's low posting, have led me to drop her quite a bit. I really hope she comes back to the game to provide more clarification and respond to Jay's concerns.
TinyBubbles -- (#1 No read or unsure, #2 no change, #3 Very slight mafia read, #4 no change) -- Her vote for Elo is difficult to interpret, considering how new she is to the game. I really can't tell whether she is being genuine as a civilian or playing a new mafia game any better than I could before after her D2 behavior. As such, she stays in my very slightly leaning mafia read.

Bass_the_Clever -- (#1 No read or unsure, #2 Very slight mafia read, #3 Slight mafia read, #4 no change) -- In #3 and #4, I said: "And down he goes, but only to the "slight" read level, since I'm still far from sure we're seeing a baddie Bass here. That said, I'm really putting the pressure on him now by making him my top mafia read at the moment. Good points: I feel he engaged me and the thread in what he is thinking more than he has in recent games. I hope he continues this in the future. Bad points: His throwing out my behavior as something to keep an eye on, as if to bandwagon. Not having any suspects (though this is par for the course). He finally started throwing out slight pings but only after I prodded him considerably, which lines up with meta, but makes me feel as though he's hiding something from me. He could be a civilian hiding something, but he shouldn't be, and I really want him to engage more." These feelings still stand, pending his opinions as well as Elo and Epi's alignments. POST MORE.

Elohcin -- (#1 No read or unsure, #2 Slight civilian read, #3 no change, #4 Very strong mafia read) -- I've said a lot about this. Succinctly: She voted for Golden despite previously leaning civilian on him, both unexplained, and her behavior has been subsequently dismissive, emotionally-charged, and seems very fabricated to me. I've wavered a bit throughout Day 2 on my certainty level, but I'm standing by a strong mafia read, just a little bit less certain than I was feeling EoD D1, as some good points were made mostly by TH. I still strongly advocate her lynch, however.

For reference:
Very strong civilian read
Strong civilian read
Moderate civilian read
Slight civilian read
Very slight civilian read
No read or unsure
Very slight mafia read
Slight mafia read
Moderate mafia read
Strong mafia read
Very strong mafia read

Just a reminder: I have a lot of PhD stuff to do tomorrow, so I won't be around much at all (for real this time). Probably will pop in around EoD.

My main objective when I return is to sort through my very slight mafia reads since I'm having trouble discerning how I feel about them relative to each other.

[Epignosis]

That doesn't even look like a rainbow.

[Sloonei]

Bass_the_Clever
My case against him from Day 1 is here and still stands, so I'll pick this up in his posts after that.

Well I voted golden because I dont want to be lynched day one.

Voted for Golden late in the day because, at that point, it was either Golden or Bass and self-preservation was on both their minds. But that does not do anything to easy my concern about this vote and post. Bass at least had a chance to say something as far as a suspicion, about anyone, at this point but he didn't voice anything. Just said "I don't want to die."
I would ask Bass who he would have voted for Day 1 if we suppose his fins weren't on the line and he had no votes against him.

While you're here Bass.

Bass_the_Clever, what are your thoughts or reads on the six new players in this game? I have not seen you mention any of them yet. The same question stands for Black Rock and fingersplints.

Well I will tell you what I think after catching up.

I do not think these questions have been answered yet, so I'll open them all up again. For everyone. What do you all think of us new players?

Can you please show me where I said I was suspected MP? I said I wanted to keep an eye on him because I felt like he was acting different this game. The I gave a short list of what I thought.

Saying you want to keep an eye on someone is pretty much the same thing as suspecting them. You're not directly accusing them of being mafia, but you think there's something worth watching out for.

But you never pursued it, or anything for that matter. You just stayed neutral until you were in danger of getting lynched and you had to put a self defense vote.

Is that how you always play? I'm saying this because I remember someone mentioning you always play like this.

Why would I pursue someone I'm just keeping an eye on. The way I play is with my gut.

This is a post he seems to have received some attention for, and I like this response to the questioning about it here. But the language here seems a bit odd. He seems to deny responsibility for being suspicion of MovingPicture. I can understand a distinction in the meaning behind "keeping an eye on" someone and "suspecting" someone, but those two things don't need to and shouldn't be in opposition of each other. It's the hope that keeping an eye on a player will lead to suspicion, and for that reason this post feels a little bit over-defensive, which I often associate with scumminess, but it could also just be an aggravated townie's behavior.

I would propose that if Adam Smith is still alive (hopefully he's not Metalmarsh), then he should try to build a case against Malthus, who he probably targetted last night. This game doesn't allow role reveals, but I suppose he can come up with some reason to call him bad and then tunnel on him, no?

There's also the possibility of him keeping targetting Malthus over and over to exploit his night kill. But I think that's a bad idea, because he gets free again as soon as Adam Smith dies. We should get rid of the bastard as soon as we can.

I think its best if Adam Smith plays it smarter then what you are suggesting if he pretty much outs himself by tunneling its going to paint a huge target for the mafia to go after.

you don't think a dead serial killer would be worth that risk?

I think adam smith can be real helpful role to help catch baddies. I mean if you want to just catch one indy and lose the most helpful info role the civs have then poor old george will be on his own.

I like these posts, actually. They show a measured sense of how roles should be handled in the game. It at least suggests he's got an eye on the bigger picture of the game. That could just be because he's scum, though. I could literally say that about anything.

These posts do very little to ease my suspicion of him and he still remains a prime candidate for my vote unless things start to change, either because he clears his own name or another player enters my scumdar. I want to hear a lot more from Bass, in response to the case against him (this post wouldn't be a bad place to start), and/or his top suspects and reads and things.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Cap'n Sloonbeard, what did you think of Bass's responses to my little pile of questions this phase?

[Sloonei]

birdwithteeth
I've not been uneasy of birdwithteeth's presence at all this game, which is to say he's basically a gut town read for starters. And my eye was initially attracted to his name at the beginning of the game because is that an It's Always Sunny reference?

MovingPictures07, one might assert you've made a concerted effort here to earn Bass's early good graces without having to commit yourself to a truly positive read -- even if minor.

Yeah. That's what I got from MP's comment before this about bass. But again, only one Day 0 interaction. So not sure how concrete this is yet. I'll file it away in the ol' memory bank for later.

Unfortunately, my catch-up is going to be temporarily stalled. Will be back later to finish it.

Alright. I think I'm caught up for now.

- So far, I feel like all the new people who are posting a lot is refreshing, but I feel weighed down by it. In that, given they're new and posting a lot, it's hard for me to wrap my head around anything completely yet. Especially since it's only Day 1 and I'm trying to do this while multitasking.

- I have yet to see anything that really piques my interest. Or is worthy of me fully commenting on. The only thing of note to me so far is Epig calling out Luffy for giving himself outs with some of the opinions/statements he's made so far. And he's coming off to me as trying really hard to blend in. But again, only a Day 1 read.

- To say I've been extremely busy is an understatement. 3 of the last 4 weeks I've worked 6 days, I work 6 days this week, and will be working 6 next week. I have very little time and energy for mafia right now, but the theme of the game interested me enough to make my break much shorter than I thought it would be. When something happens that I think is a bigger deal than what I've seen, I'll jump in a bit more. But for now, I'll at least do enough to keep up and post any current thoughts I have.

Linki: Of course, there's 5 new posts in the time it took for me to type that too. Oh well.

In his first two posts I feel like there's more substancce than in either of the post histories of aether or Bass (no offense intended to either of them), but each of these posts just manage to say a lot more about the player's thoughts on the thread at that time. I like it.

- I have yet to see anything that really piques my interest. Or is worthy of me fully commenting on. The only thing of note to me so far is Epig calling out Luffy for giving himself outs with some of the opinions/statements he's made so far. And he's coming off to me as trying really hard to blend in. But again, only a Day 1 read.

Who is trying really hard to blend in? Epignosis or Dragon D. Luffy?

Dragon D. Luffy

Blunt answer to a blunt question. I dig. An explanation rarely hurts, though.

I noted earlier that birdwithteeth voted for Bass earlier, and was the least vocal member of those whose votes ended up there, but he still provided the thread with plenty of skepticism of Bass and others before settling on his vote.

Alright. Here's where I currently stand...

- On the whole MP vs. Epig thing, I'm leaning more towards MP being civvie and Epig being bad. I know Epig tends to really go after a tip-off he sees, and sometimes makes mountains out of molehills, but I don't have any reason to not believe MP on the RL stuff. He tends to multitask a lot it seems when he is mafia-ing, and all the reasons he gave strike me as genuine. Epig going after him for that RL stuff might be enough for a Day 1 vote for me.

- I'm not seeing the case on Golden at all. I know Turnip Head mentioned him contradicting the whole meta vs. non-meta aspects of Golden, which seems to be TH's main reason for voting him (I think?). Feel free to correct me if I'm interpreting you wrong, TH, but that's how it felt to me.

- I agree with sloonei on Bass. The DDL part of it strikes me as the oddest. It was a fairly substantial aspect earlier in the thread, and enough for me to look at DDL as well. So either Bass hasn't read the thread well enough or he's aware of something we aren't and is hiding it. Him asking MM about the "Syndicate regulas" and his blanket statement about MP don't seem that suspicious by themselves. But when thrown together and with the first statement/thought, and given MP really had to prod Bass earlier to get a definitive statement of some kind, I'm looking hard at Bass right now.

I will have to vote in a couple of hours. Unless something changes drastically, I will be voting for either Bass, Epig, or DDL.

He seems to have done his homework in the thread, and I like the transparent skepticism and uncertainty in these posts. He does not pretend to have any answers but is voicing his ideas as he has them, it seems. I get a good townie vibe from a number of his posts like these.

I remember birdwithteeth's vote standing out because it seemed like he was the only one to go for Bass without giving any reason, but I looked back and realized that's wrong and he stated agreement with my case in this post: http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 34#p143634

that looks good and i approve, but for the sake of skepticism I'll say it's possible he could just be scum hopping on an easy and pre-established case, and one that didn't have as much momentum as some of the others and thus wouldn't be as likely to result in an actual lynch that day.

Usually, it takes me a few cycles to really get into a mafia game and start to go with some of my own ideas. So usually for Day 1, I look for something to catch my eye and I often get accused of piggybacking or parroting other peoples' ideas. Although I tend to think that I still add my own thoughts in there.

I still don't feel good about Bass. But I definitely want to hear more from everyone that voted early. Especially as to why they didn't hold off on voting until later with more discussion and information.

And this post gives me even more townie vibes because it lines up perfectly with pretty much everything I just said. I believe birdwithteeth because there is evidence in the thread to suggest this answer is true. More townie points.

One thing that I'd like to see followed up on, though:

birdwithteeth11 -- (#1, #2, #3 no change) -- In #3, I said: "Seems like normal BWT and I know he is very busy. Not sure what to make of him yet." I would feel slightly better about him due to his post content, but his vote for Golden cancels it out, so I'm still not sure what to make of him.

Ummmm...I didn't vote for Golden?

I voted for Bass.

Also, RIP Golden. When I get a chance, I'm going to go back and read how that lynch went down. Something about it smells fishy to me.

Have you had a chance to look over the lynch? If not, could you point to what about it smells fishy? That'd be groovy.

Definitely the strongest town reads of the three post histories I've looked at. I dunno what that means for the overall picture of the game, but so far so good.

[Sloonei]

Ok I have a bit of time so if anyone wants to ask me anythingg now is the time or if there are any questions I did answer please point them out.

i have a few:

1.) how do you personally differentiate "keeping an eye on a player" and "suspecting a player"?

2.) who are your top suspects right now and why? you don't have to point to specific posts if time doesn't permit, but please try to offer some explanation.

3.) of the five players who voted for you on Day 1, who do you feel was the most suspicious for doing so?

4.) how might you respond to the points i made against you in this post:

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 28#p143328

1. IMO keeping an eye on someone is just something I see that isn't the norm for that person it doesn't make me suspect them it just makes me want to watch that person and see if there is more to what I noticed. Suspecting a person is when I have found something worth voting for .

2. Just so you know I really don't pull quotes. But my suspects so far are-
- Elo because she voted someone she felt good about and gave a lame excuse. She acted like she knew his game and unless she has played with him somewhere else golden just started playing on this site and has died early every game. So how would she know his game?

- TinyBubbles because I was her top suspect and she votes Elo. Why give up on your top suspect if there is a chance that person can get lynched? I understand she trust people who voted Elo but I think piggybacking because of "trust" is something that mafias do to get in good with people who are vocal and seem super civvie.

3. Out of the the five people who voted me I think BWT's vote pinged me the most it came out of no where.

I like his response for 1, as I mentioned in my other post, and 2 is a good start, but it doesn't seem too complete, and the TinyBubbles suspicion has a literal OMGUS in it, which I don't always view as something scummy and each case is its own thing, but it's still doesn't really add a lot of strength to the supposed read. 3 is probably an accurate assessment regardless of his alignment, although the "out of nowhere" bit isn't really the case, as birdwithteeth did announce his at least slight suspicion of Bass earlier in the day. But he was still the least vocal person on the pile, so it's understandable that his vote would seem to have been relatively unannounced.

His lack of response to 4 does not look very good for him, as self-defense is usually the easiest way for a player to become engaged in a game. Or at least that's how I've always seen/played it, I can't speak for any of the typical playstyles in this community though.

[Sloonei]

Black Rock

Just catching up here. You guys have been busy today.

This post is where I'm at.

I see that DDL thinks all those who've been posting tonight look like town. I disagree, but not only that, I highly doubt that none of the mafia are talking. I just can't see that being the case. Honestly, I see MP's over-helpful behavior as suspicious. I know we have a lot of new players and he wants to be helpful, but there's just something fishy about it.

I really don't see MP as being overly helpful. I see it more as him excited about the new players and helping them out. I would expect this behaviour from MP and I would expect you to see this as well.

This is the post at the heart of what seems to have gotten her the most attention this game.
I actually like the "backtracking" from the notion that she's defending MP here (this this)

Other than this her posts have been a bit scant, but she has at least provided us with some explanation about that, which is nice. But, if BR gets the time, it would be wonderful to hear her thoughts on things, anythings, as always.

[Sloonei]

I'll continue with fingersplints and everyone else later tonight or tomorrow morning. Don't want to overload on reads-making right now. I'll probably still be around the thread regardless.

[Sloonei]

JaggedJimmyJay is the Mark!

[Sloonei]

I skipped the wombat. My read on him is as follows:

[sanmateo]

JaggedJimmyJay is the Mark!

return of the mark

[sanmateo]

MP also made stuff up about my vote, told a lie. He said that I posted that I thought Golden was CIV! Then he later quote a post from me where I say Golden is my #2 suspect. He said that I never had an opinion on anyone but him, but then he quoted a post where I mention several names and what I think about them.

you are definitely skipping over my posts, dont really care if you mentioned other people (but did you? where?), but you said golden was civ and then you voted for him without explaining why at all, you basically never mentioned them again other than to say you were voting them

why do i keep saying things when you arent gonna reply to them or even read them

Anyway, I am leaning civ on Epi, Golden, MM, Splints, and Jimmy. I am not sure about San, Sloo, DDL, MP, and BR.

vote elohcin

ANOTHER early vote? Seriously?!

I might just go back and look at everyone who is voting so ridiculously early. Unless you have a significant RL reason (and I haven't seen any yet), I don't understand the point of not waiting to decide.

i thought a vote might elicit a response

[sanmateo]

considering otherwise people dont even respond to my posts

[sanmateo]

im kind of out of it and im not really understanding most of the posts but ill try

[sanmateo]

TH's point is an interesting one. since MP read Epignosis as mafia (so did i), then the following question must be asked:

did Elo join her mafia mate and spouse in a public crucifixion of MP? is that how baddies behave as a team on many Day 1s over the course of mafia history?

maybe. i don't know that i can recall an example at the moment though.

Honestly it so rarely ever happens. That's why I pointed it out when you had them together on your reads list.

I think Epi would have encouraged Elo to do her own thing, FWIW.

i am feeling a bit doubtful too. so let's examine all of the possibilities (excluding serial killer variables, meh):

BOTH MAFIA:

mafia Epignosis goes ham against MP, and mafia Elo joins the fun. bold maneuver, but not impossible. my instincts tell me a married couple wouldn't find that super entertaining though, and that they'd be more likely to do their own thing individually -- i say as a human being who has never been married ever.

EPI MAFIA, ELO TOWN:

Mafia Epignosis goes ham against MP, and town Elo thinks he's making sound arguments. so she gets involved with the discussion and says her piece. sounds plausible, though i don't see how a townie really buys any of Epi's points in that exchange.

EPI TOWN, ELO MAFIA:

Town Epi was employing an aggressive gambit to generate reads of MP and anyone else discussing the matter. Mafia Elo sees the opportunity to pile on and does so -- thereby linking her husband to her erroneously. sounds plausible, but also elaborate and thus far-fetched. and risky for a mafioso to link herself to someone so abrasive.

BOTH TOWN:

Epi was employing an aggressive gambit to generate reads of MP and anyone else discussing the matter. Town Elo either thinks he's making sound arguments or catches on to his ploy and plays along. this strikes me as the least sensible of the four really, both because Epi's points were never good enough to be believed and i don't know that anyone really dives into such a gambit at the risk of being heavily suspected for it.

given this, it seems decently likely to me that one of the spouses was bad. i dunno about both though.

third please

[sanmateo]

And that's why you never vote early.

this is how you would use a vote if you wanted to stop people from voting for someone

[sanmateo]

jay has basically taken over the thread but hasnt really been as thoroug as he usually is, jay do u feel this is true at all, do you think it could be because of playing with people u dont kno or is it the lack of a flip?

i think the only person he has expressed suspicion of 2day is roxy, which is a really well construced case fwiw

[Sloonei]

I've been very aware of your posts in this game, sanmateo, but haven't looked closely and specifically at them, as is the case for lots of people. I still need to do a bunch of ISO stuff. This thread does have the feel of being dominated by a few names in general, and I think it would be ideal to fix that and for everyone to be discussing with/about everyone.

[Sloonei]

Looking through sanmateo's post history, if there's any one player who deserves to be frustrated for being overlooked this game, it's him. I feel like he's making a lot of posts that are going unheeded, as he seems to be suggesting himself a few times.

He's had a big string about Turnip Head as a suspect that has gone relatively unobserved, originating at Turnip's inaugural vote for Golden, and it's been a consistent line of thought from him since then starting here.

Yeah you're right, I forgot I didn't quote it. It's the post directly above that one, which is probably why I didn't quote.

you still say you aren't playing to your meta, i find that sus to say.

but tbh i feel like i'm missing out a lot on these discussions about your meta and golden's meta because i dont know you 2 at all

I'm not going to pretend I was playing like I always do, when I clearly wasn't. And it was immediately obvious to everyone who's played here regularly that I wasn't acting like normal TH. MM brought it up in relation to a point I was making about Golden, so I needed to address it. Check out the context

this is the second time someone has accused me of taking their words out of context or misunderstanding them so far in this game so maybe i am doing something wrong after all but i still stand by what i said. i think the way people phrase their opinions/thoughts is important and yours in that post strikes me as suspicious. its kind of useless to go on endlessly about this tho isnt it

i like that you've finally made a case on golden and i do agree with the point u make about their early post about the drive-by lynching and his response to your point about their meta is a bit cynical, at least the bit where he says " When I am civ, the way I act is part of my civilian meta, no matter how busy I am. ", surely if your volume of posting or involvement is affected your meta changes. what i got from that sentence is that he's saying he is playing to his civilian meta because he's a civ. which is a weirder thing than admitting to be playin off- meta
---
at this point i would probably vote for either metalmarsh for not explaining that vote or mp07, mainly for that post i questioned him about a few pages back. i'm not even considering the timing of the posts tbh, but i gotta admit it is very fun to see epi play. it sucks if mp felt bad after that :v.
i would like to see how golden or ddl vote to get a better feel of what they're up to but i have to go sleep and i'm not certain if i'm gonna be on before the deadline tomorrow

I like this post because it suggests, while he's on Turnip Head's case about this vague "off-meta" thing that so many of the familiar players are referring to, but which has not received an adequate explanation, either from Turnip himself or anyone else. How is Turnip Head being perceived differently this game than he usually is?

the timing of bwt's vote completely put me off considering voting for bass. even if they did express suspicion of bass before, it feels like something is happening imo. gonna vote for mp07 now for the reasons i explained before.

Care to elaborate on this thought, sanmateo? What made you think "something was happening" and how did that dissuade you from voting for Bass at that time? How seriously were you considering him beforehand?

Elohcin -- (#1 No read or unsure, #2 Slight civilian read, #3 no change) -- DROP! Fixated on me all game, then suddenly had opinions on a ton of players with no explanation, including "leaning civilian" on Golden. Then continues to subtly push heat on me until I had an emotional breakdown, upon which she says that both (1) the breakdown doesn't bode well for me yet (2) votes Golden with literally no explanation. Could it get any objectively more scummy than this?

i think you are being manipulative with this, the problem for me isnt that she focused on you but that she had golden as a civilian read and without building a case she flipped and voted for him

at this point i think as scum team of elo + mp07 is more likely than elo + epi, if elo and epi were scum teams their voting would have been very clumsy. in any case i think everyone should focus on getting 1 scum and work their way back instead of trying to catch the whole scum team at once.

Another interesting observation that I'd not really considered. How common is it for scum partners to outright bus each other from Day 1 over here?

[Sloonei]

fingersplints

Damn you guys are posting a lot. I'm only about half way through this

Expresses early that this game is moving faster than she's used to. It's believable here, as that seems to be a genuine piece of culture shock for many people in this game. That does nothing to suggest an alignment, but it's something to be considered when looking at these posts.

I can dig this post because it's at least a substantiated claim about MP's early-game behavior being strange. I cannot comment on the substance, of course, but it's nice to observe that it's there.

Anyway, I am leaning civ on Epi, Golden, MM, Splints, and Jimmy. I am not sure about San, Sloo, DDL, MP, and BR.

BR's defense of MP definitely caught my eye. Especially in a one mafia set up. If she was bad, I mean he could be a indy but she would know he was more likely to be good.

@JJJ - Golden hasn't played mafia in years, and recently returned. I think he's been killed relatively early in all the games since his return, so that could be why he thinks new players are in danger of being lynched early. Personally, unless one of you slips up bad or something, I do not plan on voting for any of you.

Claims to have noticed Black Rock's "defense of MP" as something worth noting. I don't know what is meant by a "one mafia set up", and it would be nice to hear an elaboration on this thought, if possible or if it doesn't already exist. What was it about Black Rock's early behavior that caught your eye, fingersplints? And what was the hypothetical situation you were imagining? And what do you think of these things now?

Has anyone considered that G-Man is pulling a gambit, isn't actually cursed, and is skating by on Day 1?

Why did a couple of players automatically dismiss any future suspicion of him assuming he's cursed?

Nothing to find him suspicious of today and don't like to vote cursed players. He doesn't get a free pass the whole game though.

I can buy this as a townie post at that stage in the game, early Day 1. She points to G-man as a potential suspect down the line if answers don't come up for his strange behavior, while refraining from offering any other strong reads, which I don't see as a problem.
Still, it leaves the door open for easy outs later on if she is scum.

So I'm a bit torn on MP. I think that the thing that bothers me the most is actually that I feel like a lot of his posts have a "tell me why I'm bad" demanding vibe going on, and I associate that more with a baddie. The timing thing doesn't bother me (although I totes get where Epi is coming from - it could be he just didn't want to answer that question hoping it would be forgotten) and although I think the Gman thing is weird I don't think makes him bad. The same thing could be pointed out about MP - why even bring up the question of if it is faked when it would draw so much attention for it.
Golden and TH are also bothering me by their different play but I'm not sure it makes either bad necessarily.

BR is still my biggest suspect for defending MP and then saying she wasn't defending him. I will probably be voting there.

This post is a little more developed than the previous one and I find it perhaps a bit inconsistent with the previous post (or my analysis of it) where she noted G-man as someone worth paying attention to. Here she names a bunch of names, none of them G-man, and returns to Black Rock as her top suspect because of her "defending MP" thing. Would you be able to elaborate on that now, fingersplints? How do you feel now, and why did you feel that way at the time?

The other thing that bothered me about MP was his line about TinyBubbles setting off "ALARM BELLS OF RAGE" for wanting to randomize despite that a lot has happened. Not that much has happened tbh. Some of these long posts are long for the sake of being long tbh
Why is it that crazy for a new person to want to randomize that it would make you rage? That bit seemed weird and forced

Linki - I gotta reread them one at a time. Those guys were mashing together for me a bit there. I don't do well with walls of text I'm not surprised by their reads although I don't agree seem to agree with most of them.

It is with great irony I ask what is meant by posts being "long for the sake of being long"? Do you feel certain players are (were) just adding fluff to their posts for the sake of throwing sand in our eyes, or something else? If so, who might those players have been/be?

I'm having a hard time keeping track of this game. sorry guys, haven't even done my reread of the new guys. I'm probably going to vote for one of the people with a shady day 1 vote. So far I am leaning TH, only because I think Elo is explaining herself a bit better then TH. Maybe I am a little bit clouded by my last experience with a civvie Elo in Roger Rabbit.

Does anyone have any logical reasoning that Gman could still be cursed?

echoes the frustrations alluded to in her first post. I suppose it lends credibility to the claim, at least. And there is still some substantiated casing going on. She is eyeing the votes from yesterday's phase, and once again naming G-man as someone worth discussing. I could go either way on these sorts of behavior. It could be scum locking on to a few targets early in the game and gripping on to them as things progress. Or it could be a townie trying to work out a couple aspects of the game on their own. I would like to see more follow up posts from splints before I can really make up my mind on this.

I still suspect Black Rock a lot, but it's hard to have any new reason to when she is all sick and not around posting.

Expresses again in her most recent post that original suspicion of Black Rock. I can understand the perspective, but it would be nice to hear some elaboration from fingersplints on what exactly about Black Rock's behavior she finds suspicious. She has observed that BR appeared to defend MP early in the game but then suddenly backed off of that stance. But what do you find suspicious about that? And, while BR's content remains low,, what do you think of some of the other points in the game? Have you looked at yesterday's votes and come to any conclusions?

And you were given the option to examine all us newbies earlier in the game but still have not offered any real substantial readings of us all. This was a bit of a response

Do you think it's more likely they're scum just not sure what to say about us, or townies just not sure what to think about us?

I don't think it's indicative of any alignment. I just think they prefer familiarity, so there is a good chance they are not reading as deeply into any of the newer players posts as they are into some of the regulars here. I find I have to put more effort into reading the newer players, because I don't know your styles, and y'all are foreign to me (with the exception of Dragon D. Luffy and TinyBubbles). So, if this is the case, I don't think it is good for several players to ignore the existance of half a dozen other players.

I mentioned them all in one go actually:

The other thing that bothered me about MP was his line about TinyBubbles setting off "ALARM BELLS OF RAGE" for wanting to randomize despite that a lot has happened. Not that much has happened tbh. Some of these long posts are long for the sake of being long tbh
Why is it that crazy for a new person to want to randomize that it would make you rage? That bit seemed weird and forced

Linki - I gotta reread them one at a time. Those guys were mashing together for me a bit there. I don't do well with walls of text I'm not surprised by their reads although I don't agree seem to agree with most of them.

This was just a little while ago. I haven't gotten a chance to reread them since then and likely won't be able to this day period.
I don't prefer familiarity. You know I am in a bunch of games with players I don't know atm This is just what has stuck out to me so far. I haven't even given my read on Rox yet!

Has anything happened since then involving any of us? Who's good and who's bad among us

I'm fairly neutral on fingersplints here. There seem to be a lot of posts suggesting a few fairly strong ideas in the thread, but not a whole lot of substance to those ideas. I'll need to see more of before making a more definitive read. I would class fingersplints as distinctly not a town read at this point, but not necessarily a scum read.

[acrosstheaether]

Replace me please. No alignment reveal is too confusing.

[Sloonei]

Roxy
One of the lowest post totals in the game, but there's a fair amount of content in these individual posts. this one is an early one that's pretty substantive and contributes to a number of discussions going on early in the thread.

Committing to slight civilian read on DDL. I believe him.

Is this a new style for you?

I am so surprised you have not locked onto any new players accussing them to be bad in massive wall-o-texts
Jk but still a small to you.

i have to take note that Epignosis is active lurking right now. he is aware of the game, seemingly following the game, and contributing nothing to it. at face value and independent of meta (which i cannot know beyond MP's descriptions), i find that suspicious.

Good luck pinning Epi down I think I have gotten his alignment right only when I am bad

Also lol at the top posters at this point are seeing each other as good (mostly) (pg 6 standard ppp)

This seems to be a genuine observation of MP's "new behavior", though the observation in particular is a different one from all the others that were saying MP's behavior was different for reasons of his helpfulness. This one is because of his abrupt town read on Dragon. Lends a bit more authenticity to Roxy's observation than some of the others, imo.

I am torn betwixt TH and Metalspammer.

I have not previously spoken about the Spamming Newt so I will be laying a vote on TH. I did not like his vote or reasoning he later expressed.

I have zero time til. I am home

Roxy had expressed prior interest in Turnip Head here. These are two candidates who were not really at the forefront of any discussion on Day 1, giving this post and the vote something of a disconnected feel. That could be because Roxy was simply pursuing alternate routes as a townie, or is scum unsure of where to enter the game. With so few posts it is tough to get a firm sense of where Roxy's thoughts lie, but what posts there are all suggest a good level of effort. Not everyone has all the time in the world to play a game, and that's more than understandable.

I can say this of anyone, but I really would like to see more posts from Roxy, and for now can't place her anywhere better than neutral on my chart/rainbow/list/arrangement of suspicion design

[Sloonei]

Replace me please. No alignment reveal is too confusing.

if you had to guess at Epi's alignment, what would you say?

[Sloonei]

I am going to dip my toes in the rainbow game for the very first time now. I hope you're all as excited as I am for this.

JaggedJimmyJay - I find myself agreed with much of what Jay is saying so far, which is usually a good sign. I could do a more thorough ISO later on if I feel it's necessary. Everything he says feels genuine so far.
sanmateo - Giving him the benefit of the doubt in some ways. I don't think I've ever played with sanmateo as scum, and it's been months since we played a game together at all, so I don't really have as much familiarity with his style as one would expect coming from the same community, but I like the effort level he's putting in this game and would like to see what comes of some of the points he's made. His line of thought about Turnip Head is one I'd particularly like to see pursued more.
MovingPictures07 - Similar to Jay, I find myself being able to agree with a lot of what he says. I'm not nearly as familiar with MP07 as a player as I am with Jay, so it's not as easy to discern whether or not I find him to be genuine, but to feel in agreement with another player so much is a good thing.
birdwithteeth11 - Of all the true ISOs I just did, birdwithteeth's was the one that felt the most strongly town-oriented.
Dragon D. Luffy - I gave him a slight town read on Day 1 and have kind of let him slip past since then. I admit I need to take a more thorough look at his more recent contributions to the thread, but his presence here on Day 1 did not feel false in any way.
Roxy - Not many posts, but what's there is pretty thorough and consistent. Need to hear more, but I did not find anything scummy in Roxy's posts.
Black Rock - very slight town read based on the stuff about MovingPictures on Day 1. I thought her "backtracking" from the alleged defense of MP looked more like a townie not willing to suggest a stronger read on a player than was truly intended.
Turnip Head - Gonna have to do a proper ISO later. But would also, in the meantime, like to hear a lot more from and about Turnip Head. I feel like there's a lot I simply do not know and can't figure out about Turnip so far. I'll try to correct that.
Vompatti - Nothin'
G-man - Nothin' again, but with the note that he's at least achieved his null read by way of a much more noticeable route.
TinyBubbles - A player so relatively new to the game is tough to read. I do not feel anything scummy from her posts, but their small quantity can't not be unnerving.
fingersplints - Very slightly below the neutral zone because I need to hear more from splints before I can dismiss any lingering suspicion. Or this color could get more red, who knows?
acrosstheaether - I do not doubt that she might be struggling to follow along this game more than usual, but having seen what she is capable of as a townie, there's nothing she can do to shake my suspicion unless she starts posting more.
Elohcin - I've not really posted a case of mine own on her yet, and I should, but for now I'll continue to acknowledge that she's a candidate to earn my vote right now, mostly for reasons stated by others already.
Bass_the_Clever - I've highlighted my case against him more clearly than I have against anyone else this game. Depending on how things play out for the rest of the day, either he or Elohcin is in line to get my vote. I am looking, among other things, for a response to either one of my casing posts about Bass.

There's not a lot of red on this chart, and I expect some of those neutral names to start sliding downward (or upward) as things progress onward. Vompatti especially needs to give us something to work with, imo. I am going to sleep now, much later than I intended thanks to mafia. I party hard on Saturday nights.

My apologies for drowning the thread in Paprika tonight.

[Vompatti]

Is that a sexual thing?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

jay has basically taken over the thread but hasnt really been as thoroug as he usually is, jay do u feel this is true at all, do you think it could be because of playing with people u dont kno or is it the lack of a flip?

i think the only person he has expressed suspicion of 2day is roxy, which is a really well construced case fwiw

I've certainly tried to take over the thread and wear the pants*, but MP is on fiyah. :P

I don't think i've been less thorough than normal though. I ISOed every player (18 friggin people) on Day 1 and have started that process again on Day 2. Roxy was the first new suspect i found; i'm sure she won't be the last.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

*joke term we've used lately for me being "town leader"

[Epignosis]

That's quite an offensive term.

































Are you saying Scottish men can't be leaders of the town?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

aether, i hope you reconsider. there are still flips after lynches. the difference isn't massive from what we do in this case, imo.

[Roxy]

I'm having a hard time keeping track of this game. sorry guys, haven't even done my reread of the new guys. I'm probably going to vote for one of the people with a shady day 1 vote. So far I am leaning TH, only because I think Elo is explaining herself a bit better then TH. Maybe I am a little bit clouded by my last experience with a civvie Elo in Roger Rabbit.

Does anyone have any logical reasoning that Gman could still be cursed?

I gave a reason here and I am surprised you did not think of it since you have now played on AW
The I am Groot restriction happened to Sapient.

MovingPictures07 310
JaggedJimmyJay 230
Metalmarsh89 120
Sloonei 107
Dragon D. Luffy 89
Golden 88
sanmateo 79
Epignosis 78
Turnip Head 42
G-Man 38
fingersplints 35
Elohcin 31
Bass_the_Clever 25
birdwithteeth11 25
Black Rock 18
Russtifinko 15
acrosstheaether 13
thellama73 13
TinyBubbles 13
Roxy 10
Vompatti 5
Dom 1
Ricochet 1
Yep, that's a pretty difference in number of posts from the top posters to the bottom ones.

So what!
Wtf does post count have to do with whether I am bad or good?


Catching up -
I have posted on other forums (2+2, AW) but maybe not here - My work schedule has changed drastically I can longer mafia when at work and can only be around in the evenings when I am off of work. So I am not going to be as active as I have been but as I have always preached: Quality > Quanity every time in mafia. I have never been a top poster but when I do post I try to add as much of my thoughts as time will allow. I am not shy about sharing what I am thinking and right now i am thinking that post about post counts was a guilt trip and lemme tell ya it irked me.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

You do realize I marked it as fluff, right? I wasn't meaning to make any point with it.

And if I am to make a point, I don't think the posters who make millions of posts per hour are as much more effective than the ones who make none. I feel like the useful information gets buried when you put it in the middle of 10 posts with 10 quotes each.

(Of course, I'm in no position to say other people's styles are wrong. Just voicing what I think).

But speaking of useful information Roxy, what do you think of this?

I am torn betwixt TH and Metalspammer.

I have not previously spoken about the Spamming Newt so I will be laying a vote on TH. I did not like his vote or reasoning he later expressed.

I have zero time til. I am home

Roxy's vote for TH came at a time when i think it was quite apparent that he had no chance of being lynched (53 minutes prior to the deadline). so on that front, it could be called an inconsequential and evasive vote. Roxy did not speak much at all about the larger bandwagons of Day 1 (Golden and Bass).

Bye Golden this site hates people who return after long absences - Idk why.

I knew he was civ and am so surprised MP did not immediately feel the same.
I also wish others. who know him better would have spoke out more.

this is probably the most interesting snippet from Roxy's post history so far for me. it's true that she had expressed a positive read of Golden earlier in the phase in response to TH's vote. but beyond that she didn't seem to make any strong effort at all to prevent his lynch. in this post she laments that MP and other Syndicate regulars didn't speak out for him more, and that "she knew he was a civ". i would assert that if she felt that way, nobody in the game was better suited to save his butt than she was. so why didn't you speak out for him more, Roxy?

you were apparently present in the thread at least once during the final stretch (in the post i previously highlighted at 53 minutes 'til the deadline). it'd seem you had an opportunity then to stand up for him and try to change people's minds.

TH - your Golden vote and subsequent reasoning was so shady. When I read your elaboration fr your vote it read like it was something you came up with bc you needed something to explain your vote. I knew that new players would listen you and MP but I thought they would be able to see through that charade of a vote.

this is face value mafioso to me. Roxy doesn't make this negative assessment of TH's vote until after the lynch has been finalized and the town flip has been revealed. she asserts in this very comment that she felt that way at the time TH posted it, before the lynch finalized, and even that she thought other players would "see through the charade". but again, she made very little concerted effort herself, if any at all, to do anything about it when it mattered. she made this accusation retrospectively when it no longer made any difference because the damage was done. it reads to me like this, in so many words:

"you guys made a huge mistake. i can't believe you guys made that huge mistake. i wouldn't have made that huge mistake. i thought you guys would realize it'd be a huge mistake."

and that is not helpful.

Basically the point is that it seems you waited until Golden was lynched to express your indignation about what happened. Which is suspicious.

[Roxy]

Answers in color - btw anyone can pull a post out of context and spin it to make it look good or bad.

looking at Roxy's 10 posts for anything intriguing...

NOTE: there are few points in this post where i pose a question for Roxy. a neutral observer might think they know the answer she'll provide, and if so i ask that you DO NOT say it. at least not until after she has responded. that has happened a couple times now -- it's ideal to allow a person to answer questions directed at them before sharing your own perspective. please don't give them answers before they even have to think about it. thanks.
This I found quite hilarious

My thoughts so far - a few newbies (DDL, JJJ, sanmateo, sloonei) are running straight into a drive by lynch of one of them. Not that I support that, I just feel like it's what you risk by generating so much discussion here on day one.

if our conduct to this point has been that unusual by Syndicate standards, i would urge caution in those who'd perceive it negatively by default. "generating so much discussion on Day 1" is honestly exactly how i'd describe the most productive town approach (indeed, i truly struggle to imagine it being perceived as inherently suspicious). if it's abnormal here, very well. i look forward to seeing the reception we get from the other regulars.

I agree that discussion is the most productive approach. But I didn't mean people would find it inherently suspicious, and don't want to discourage it from occurring. Rather, just that drive by votes can happen here (especially on day one), and visible people are easier targets to manufacture a case on. Right now, I think you guys are already in a place where it would be very easy for others to come in and make the day one conversation only about the four of you, and guarantee by doing that that one of you would be lynched.

I just wanted to get in and discourage that from occurring before it did. If others come in and begin to form opinions about the four of you, perhaps it will begin to help us all form opinions about a wider range of people.

I agree and I will not vote for a new player on Day 1.
I do not see the harm in discussing them though obv.

this might be an interesting statement. Golden's prediction of a drive-by lynch proved eerily correct -- and he ended up the victim of that himself. so Roxy wasn't wrong to agree with the assertion. but her stated refusal to vote for a new player on Day 1 is still striking. in so doing she immediately eliminated 6 players from candidacy, 4 of whom were highly active in the game and providing plenty of content to potentially be viewed with suspicion. so i ask you Roxy: why not vote for one of us?

its my standard practice, unlike some on this site, to give the new people to our site a day or so to acclimate before I vote or kill them as the case may be. I am not the only one who does this sort of thing.
MP is the opposite (or used to be until this game) he would go after new people the first day and push hard for their lynch overwhelming and derailing the thread with it.

High posters make it harder to find their true thoughts in walls-o-texts epsecially if they just pull quotes and slap a couple of sentences after each to make it seem like they are trying. Making a reread far less likely to happen by some players. Low posters have nothing to hide behind in their few posts and usually respond when directly questioned. So feel free to question any player and guage them on their responses and not the quanity of their posts. Quality > Quanity any day imo.

this may just amount to philosophical/cultural differences, but when i think someone makes a point that is fundamentally wrong it could be viewed with suspicion. this blanket criticism of high-volume posting is a means of discouraging an active game thread, which is beneficial to anti-town players in essentially any possible Mafia setup regardless of rules or roles. this is made especially true when she endorses low-volume posters instead. i agree with her that pure quality beats pure quantity, but i would assert that the best case is always quality AND quantity.

I disagree and you should not be surprised. You and MP are overwhelming the thread trying to control everything and everyone. Making it very hard to keep up. If someone disagrees with a point you or someone on your rainbow list who you deem good then you inundate them with iso posts and rainbow lists. Your blanket criticism of low posters is discouraging and condescending. Sorry I do not have the spare time you have as I am a working adult with bills to pay - in order to pay bills I have to work. Work takes me away from mafia bc my boss likes when I work and not play games. I work 7 days a week. I have a life outside of work that is not an easy one right now. I am not looking for sympathy I am however asking for some compassion for those that cannot be here as many hours of the day as you are able to. Just bc I do not have a million posts does not mean I am not trying.

I think it's pretty dangerous that people are taking the notion that one of the 5 players to kickstart the game MUST be scum as a foregone conclusion. That encourages a narrower focus of suspicion not only in Day 1, but in all ensuing days until the alleged scum is identified.

There's more to Mafia than mere probability.

I agree.

Consequentially, I'm voting for Golden. I think he's bad news this game.

This vote vote twitched my nose badly - its still twitching :o
This is your second in game post and the first on topic post. You have given no. reason or clarity for your vote - classic drive by - why?

off the top of my head, the only player i can recall Roxy expressing suspicion of in any significant way was Turnip Head. here's the start of that. we'll see if my memory serves me poorly as i continue.

TH is not playing normal idc if he is changing his style I had him pegged as bad day 2 in the champions game. I have played and hosted TH so I feel like I can judge his style better than you.

I guess the difference is I'm being obviously un-TH like and Golden feels like he's trying to hide it.

I can elaborate when I get home tonight but if you're interested in looking into it just read his filter.

I for one cannot wait for this elaboration.
I feel the opposite about Golden.

Roxy's suspicion of TH is at least in part driven by her very different read on Golden. i think this is a fair reason to be suspicious of TH, particularly given the abruptness of his vote. i wasn't that suspicious myself, but i don't struggle to imagine a townie genuinely feeling differently.

and your point here is...?

I do find it very odd that you did not single a new player out, make a case and vote. Its been your norm for so long!
Is this a new strategy you are trying with this game?

this bit was directed at MP. it bears the appearance of something at least mildly accusatory in implication, but it isn't at all accusatory in language. so that's something Roxy could talk about. what was your perspective of MP when you made this post, and how do you feel about him now?

Already asked and answered I thought you had read all my posts and not just pulled some to suit your needs.
My perspective was that he was being nice and it was not normal for him - read his Dr Who back and forth with poor zeek Day 1 - I think me and later MP were both recruited but my point still stands it was not normal behavior for MP day 1 this game.

I am torn betwixt TH and Metalspammer.

I have not previously spoken about the Spamming Newt so I will be laying a vote on TH. I did not like his vote or reasoning he later expressed.

I have zero time til. I am home

Roxy's vote for TH came at a time when i think it was quite apparent that he had no chance of being lynched (53 minutes prior to the deadline). so on that front, it could be called an inconsequential and evasive vote. Roxy did not speak much at all about the larger bandwagons of Day 1 (Golden and Bass).

and your point here is...?
This whole iso thingy seems to be more of a narrative than a suspicions post imo.

Bye Golden this site hates people who return after long absences - Idk why.

I knew he was civ and am so surprised MP did not immediately feel the same.
I also wish others. who know him better would have spoke out more.

this is probably the most interesting snippet from Roxy's post history so far for me. it's true that she had expressed a positive read of Golden earlier in the phase in response to TH's vote. but beyond that she didn't seem to make any strong effort at all to prevent his lynch. in this post she laments that MP and other Syndicate regulars didn't speak out for him more, and that "she knew he was a civ". i would assert that if she felt that way, nobody in the game was better suited to save his butt than she was. so why didn't you speak out for him more, Roxy?
bc I work Jimmy, obv something you do not have to do on a regular basis quite yet. There are plenty of others who have played as much with Golden as I have. splints, BR, MP have also played with him tbh I was surprised no one else saw his civ game for what it was.

you were apparently present in the thread at least once during the final stretch (in the post i previously highlighted at 53 minutes 'til the deadline). it'd seem you had an opportunity then to stand up for him and try to change people's minds.

bc I like to eat and have a glass of sweet tea when i finish work and sometimes I shower.

TH - your Golden vote and subsequent reasoning was so shady. When I read your elaboration fr your vote it read like it was something you came up with bc you needed something to explain your vote. I knew that new players would listen you and MP but I thought they would be able to see through that charade of a vote.

this is face value mafioso to me. Roxy doesn't make this negative assessment of TH's vote until after the lynch has been finalized and the town flip has been revealed. she asserts in this very comment that she felt that way at the time TH posted it, before the lynch finalized, and even that she thought other players would "see through the charade". but again, she made very little concerted effort herself, if any at all, to do anything about it when it mattered. she made this accusation retrospectively when it no longer made any difference because the damage was done. it reads to me like this, in so many words:

"you guys made a huge mistake. i can't believe you guys made that huge mistake. i wouldn't have made that huge mistake. i thought you guys would realize it'd be a huge mistake."

and that is not helpful.

Why are you insinuating words into my post that are not there? You can twist this all you want but I post when I have free time. I cannot be in the thread as much as you or MP. I did state my dissatisfaction with TH and his vote and reasons. Sorry i could not do it sooner due to rl.
and this post was not helpful just mean (impoo)

Turnips - Why dear vegee are you voting so early with no reasoning again? You were so wrong about Golden and now you try and do the same with Bubbles. I hope no one will follow this silliness again since the results proved disastrous last lynch. You are my biggest suspicion right now based solely on the way you are voting and your reasoning against Golden was unfounded.
Who are your top 3 suspects and why? What do you think about MM and Epi dying? Why slap an unchangeable vote down with over 24 hours yet to go? Why not say your suspicion and give Bubbles a chance to respond?

and this is a strangely predictive comment. it looks to me like Roxy already knows that a potential lynch of TinyBubbles would end in a town flip, and is throwing shade over TH now instead of then.

"i hope no one will follow this silliness again"

what if he's right? and he didn't even vote btw. his lie proved effective at least in generating responses from players like this one.

He is not right and anyone with half a brain can see that Bubbles is a likely civ with no btsc. His lie also led to the lynch of a civ last round gtk you trust his opinion. Did you even notice he never responded to me or my questions? No you did not bc that would require something more than an iso or rainbow list :P I am trying to prevent what happened to Golden from happening to Bubbles - something you just bitched about up there^^^ that I gave no effort in helping prevent a Golden lynch. Well I have time so I am trying right now to help Bubbles and you say that I know and so I am bad - you are right I do know bc it is so obv. You should read Bubbles again.
Also make up your mind it is so contradictory.

[Roxy]

You do realize I marked it as fluff, right? I wasn't meaning to make any point with it.

And if I am to make a point, I don't think the posters who make millions of posts per hour are as much more effective than the ones who make none. I feel like the useful information gets buried when you put it in the middle of 10 posts with 10 quotes each.

(Of course, I'm in no position to say other people's styles are wrong. Just voicing what I think).

But speaking of useful information Roxy, what do you think of this?

I am torn betwixt TH and Metalspammer.

I have not previously spoken about the Spamming Newt so I will be laying a vote on TH. I did not like his vote or reasoning he later expressed.

I have zero time til. I am home

Roxy's vote for TH came at a time when i think it was quite apparent that he had no chance of being lynched (53 minutes prior to the deadline). so on that front, it could be called an inconsequential and evasive vote. Roxy did not speak much at all about the larger bandwagons of Day 1 (Golden and Bass).

Bye Golden this site hates people who return after long absences - Idk why.

I knew he was civ and am so surprised MP did not immediately feel the same.
I also wish others. who know him better would have spoke out more.

this is probably the most interesting snippet from Roxy's post history so far for me. it's true that she had expressed a positive read of Golden earlier in the phase in response to TH's vote. but beyond that she didn't seem to make any strong effort at all to prevent his lynch. in this post she laments that MP and other Syndicate regulars didn't speak out for him more, and that "she knew he was a civ". i would assert that if she felt that way, nobody in the game was better suited to save his butt than she was. so why didn't you speak out for him more, Roxy?

you were apparently present in the thread at least once during the final stretch (in the post i previously highlighted at 53 minutes 'til the deadline). it'd seem you had an opportunity then to stand up for him and try to change people's minds.

TH - your Golden vote and subsequent reasoning was so shady. When I read your elaboration fr your vote it read like it was something you came up with bc you needed something to explain your vote. I knew that new players would listen you and MP but I thought they would be able to see through that charade of a vote.

this is face value mafioso to me. Roxy doesn't make this negative assessment of TH's vote until after the lynch has been finalized and the town flip has been revealed. she asserts in this very comment that she felt that way at the time TH posted it, before the lynch finalized, and even that she thought other players would "see through the charade". but again, she made very little concerted effort herself, if any at all, to do anything about it when it mattered. she made this accusation retrospectively when it no longer made any difference because the damage was done. it reads to me like this, in so many words:

"you guys made a huge mistake. i can't believe you guys made that huge mistake. i wouldn't have made that huge mistake. i thought you guys would realize it'd be a huge mistake."

and that is not helpful.

Basically the point is that it seems you waited until Golden was lynched to express your indignation about what happened. Which is suspicious.

If there was no point then why post it in the first place except to increase you post count

This is just a rehash of Jimmy's Iso post I just responded to. Do you have any further thoughts of your own?

continuing my catch up

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Uh, Roxy. I am 28 years old and spent most of my waking life at work too (USAF). I never insulted you for not having many posts. I pulled some things I found curious and raised questions -- or shared a perspective. I'll address the rest of that later.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Because I thought it would be interesting, I guess. I'm usually the biggest poster in those games and I wanted to compare myself to other big posters.

I didn't say much since I pretty much agreeded with JJJ's point about you and wanted to see your answer for it first before adding anything.

As for your answer, I know real life isn't something we can argue with. But consider this: if you were mafia, would you be tactically inclined to do anything to stop Golden's lynch? You wouldn't. So maybe at some point you had the time to come in the thread and chose not to do anything about it? I can't prove that's what happened, but I gotta consider the possibility.

Now, I have no doubt you're telling the truth about your real life. But if you were mafia, not being able to post wouldn't be a liability. It would be an asset. And I have to consider that you might be using that asset.

Being busy in real life certainly excuses you from posting a lot. But it does not make you less suspicious. Because the rest of us cannot take your real life into consideration when making an in-game read. We gotta analyse the raw information your posts provide, apply logic and make a decision. So for now, I have to think of you as a decent baddie candidate. I don't think you should be lynched now though, since I think there are a few better targets, and since giving you more time to contribute may prove me wrong.

Sorry if I might have offended you, I'm tried my best to say this in a way that doesn't make it look like I'm criticizing you for having to work.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

One practical example to what I just said. Turnip in the Champions game. He was busy in real life. And his contribution in the game amounted to jack shit. Now, he kept saying over and over that we was busy in real life, and people had to believe him about that, but eventually it was lylo and he was against players who had being 100 times more useful to town than he had been. They applied occam's razor, lynched him and he flipped mafia.

[Roxy]

Also, do any of this community's regulars have tips for us noobs on how to proceed with the scumhuntery sans role reveals?

You are doing fine with how you are approaching the game. There is no hard and fast way to find baddies, each of us have our own unique way of playing - no one way is right or wrong - so make your own kind of music

Thank you, I certainly appreciate the uniqueness of everyone's styles. My music right now wants to know what your style is telling you at the moment, Roxy. Who do you suspect? Who do you not suspect? And, because I've got a vested interest in it, what can you tell me about both/either of Bass and Elohcin?

Bass - as you may or may not know is my son. I cannot read him quite as well as he can read me but I do feel like he is playing civ at this time. He normally does not list suspects and works on one or two at a time. He has answered questions directed at him which is more than he does normally and his responses have not felt forced but instead felt natural. He could be bad I am just not convinced of it.

Elo - She has her own way of playing that is often viewed as baddie behavior. She makes wonky votes all the time, she piggybacks on other players suspicions and votes, she is more involved in small games vs large games. She is often wrongly lynched. Her Golden vote however tripped me out. She had just stated him as a civ then went onto to say his style/tone changed and she voted for him acting different than she is used to, like she knows him so well but tbh she does not know his style well at all. I do not understand how she said he was not playing like Golden should play when she herself would not know what that looks like. I also think she backed down from MP quite quickly when pressured. I could see her as bad.


I do not like to list who I do not suspect bc whats that serve except to paint a nk target.

I am most suspicious of Turnips for things i have already said. I am not getting civ vibes from him at all I am getting the cold chills from his drive by votes and I cannot believe so many are trusting him when he has done nothing to earn that trust.

Dragon seems to be feeding off of Jimmy's posts. Has been quite the echo with the new players and yes they have formed some of their own opinions but mostly they seem to reiterate what another has said. I do not know if this enough for a vote but certainly enough to twitch my nose.

Elo - for things stated above.

still catching up

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Answers in color - btw anyone can pull a post out of context and spin it to make it look good or bad.

that's not the point of this exercise. the point is to find trends, or interesting moments, and ask about them. or even just talk about them. the point of an ISO is not to cast suspicion upon a player. it is to ANALYZE a player and thus influence one's own read of him/her. so i looked over your posts, found some things i didn't like and at least one thing i did like, and then came to a final conclusion -- that you are suspicious. i can understand if people around here aren't used to this approach, but i'm honestly kind of sick of seeing it treated like some kind of inferior method. give it a chance.

it's good that you've replied to my points. that's the entire purpose of this. now we're in a dialogue and we'll emerge with more thorough perspectives of each other than we had before.

its my standard practice, unlike some on this site, to give the new people to our site a day or so to acclimate before I vote or kill them as the case may be. I am not the only one who does this sort of thing.
MP is the opposite (or used to be until this game) he would go after new people the first day and push hard for their lynch overwhelming and derailing the thread with it.

this is can believe. i don't like to vote for brand new players on Day 1 on my home site either -- it can discourage their participation in future games. but i wanted to hear you say it instead of merely say it for you.

I disagree and you should not be surprised. You and MP are overwhelming the thread trying to control everything and everyone. Making it very hard to keep up. If someone disagrees with a point you or someone on your rainbow list who you deem good then you inundate them with iso posts and rainbow lists. Your blanket criticism of low posters is discouraging and condescending. Sorry I do not have the spare time you have as I am a working adult with bills to pay - in order to pay bills I have to work. Work takes me away from mafia bc my boss likes when I work and not play games. I work 7 days a week. I have a life outside of work that is not an easy one right now. I am not looking for sympathy I am however asking for some compassion for those that cannot be here as many hours of the day as you are able to. Just bc I do not have a million posts does not mean I am not trying.

i had no intention of being condescending. i might even state that your criticism of MP and i even looks condescending. i am sure you don't mean it that way. so let's stow the personal feelings and just talk about the mafia game, eh? like i suggested in my last post -- i am also a working adult with bills to pay. and i work quite a lot. sometimes that prevents me from posting as much as i would like, so i understand. and it seems you're playing in more than one game right now, so that's also a valid excuse. my point was never to criticize you for having a low post count. it was to question your honesty about criticizing people with a HIGH post count. because there's nothing inherently wrong with players staying highly active and assessing others thoroughly. MP and i are just thorough players. that's our preferred style. nothing else to say about that.

TH is not playing normal idc if he is changing his style I had him pegged as bad day 2 in the champions game. I have played and hosted TH so I feel like I can judge his style better than you.

i am sure you can judge him better than i can based on meta at least. i never even suggested your read on TH is wrong. my point was that he was your sole focus, and that kind of narrow approach can be called suspicious.

JJJ: Roxy's suspicion of TH is at least in part driven by her very different read on Golden. i think this is a fair reason to be suspicious of TH, particularly given the abruptness of his vote. i wasn't that suspicious myself, but i don't struggle to imagine a townie genuinely feeling differently.

and your point here is...?

this is where you may be misunderstanding my intentions when i do an ISO. i am not just looking for suspicious posts, i am looking for posts that affect my read in any way. and that post earned a positive grade. i liked it. so i said i liked it.

JJJ: this bit was directed at MP. it bears the appearance of something at least mildly accusatory in implication, but it isn't at all accusatory in language. so that's something Roxy could talk about. what was your perspective of MP when you made this post, and how do you feel about him now?

Already asked and answered I thought you had read all my posts and not just pulled some to suit your needs.
My perspective was that he was being nice and it was not normal for him - read his Dr Who back and forth with poor zeek Day 1 - I think me and later MP were both recruited but my point still stands it was not normal behavior for MP day 1 this game.

but that response doesn't address my point. i believe that you were asserting MP's behavior was abnormal, i never contested that. what i suggested was that you were casting suspicion upon him without directly stating "MP is suspicious" or any such thing. and that can be called manipulative. you'd be contributing to the ongoing case against a player without taking personal responsibility for that action.

JJJ: Roxy's vote for TH came at a time when i think it was quite apparent that he had no chance of being lynched (53 minutes prior to the deadline). so on that front, it could be called an inconsequential and evasive vote. Roxy did not speak much at all about the larger bandwagons of Day 1 (Golden and Bass).

and your point here is...?
This whole iso thingy seems to be more of a narrative than a suspicions post imo.

this was one of the more important points in my post. your vote was consistent with your stated suspicions of TH, that i don't dispute. but it was also highly ineffective within the larger picture of the developing lynch. there was a very low chance of Turnip Head becoming the eventual lynchee, so that you voted for him without commenting on the other cases in the conversation can be called evasive. i know i've seen mafia players avoid the ill-advised bandwagons of townies on Day 1 with throwaway votes like this one. so i made the assertion and left you to respond to it. you still haven't.

Why are you insinuating words into my post that are not there? You can twist this all you want but I post when I have free time. I cannot be in the thread as much as you or MP. I did state my dissatisfaction with TH and his vote and reasons. Sorry i could not do it sooner due to rl.
and this post was not helpful just mean (impoo)

i had no intention of being mean, so if i was perceived that way i apologize. realize that we are playing *mafia*, and if i think something is suspicious then i am going to point it out and say why. that's the entire point of this game.

He is not right and anyone with half a brain can see that Bubbles is a likely civ with no btsc. His lie also led to the lynch of a civ last round gtk you trust his opinion. Did you even notice he never responded to me or my questions? No you did not bc that would require something more than an iso or rainbow list :P I am trying to prevent what happened to Golden from happening to Bubbles - something you just bitched about up there^^^ that I gave no effort in helping prevent a Golden lynch. Well I have time so I am trying right now to help Bubbles and you say that I know and so I am bad - you are right I do know bc it is so obv. You should read Bubbles again.
Also make up your mind it is so contradictory.

to my knowledge i have at least half a brain and i cannot claim to be as confident about TinyBubbles as you are. and you're suggesting i'm the one being mean? sheesh.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Vote acrosstheaether

You say you want to be replaced. But you come here and vote for Elo. Are you playing the game or not? Make up your mind.

You have been the most suspicious player since the game started. I gave you a pass in day 1 because you provided mechanical reasons not to contribute, but it's day 2 and you keep playing like you don't care about the game at all.

For the record, I believe the Elo lynch is a good one, for reasons I gave in night 1. But I feel a lot better about lynching aether.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Man, it would be incredibly weird to play mafia with my mother.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

oh, and as for making up my mind: i said you were suspicious. that's pretty concrete.

i still think so.

[Roxy]

Ooh sneaky, maybe I'll have to recant my opinion about you being a good guy
I'm not milking the noob card I just skim a lot and miss things, it's as lame as that >_>

Anyway, I'm just gonna go ahead and Vote Elohcin. I'm assuming you're not a lying dirty wolf in sheep's clothing misleading me; apart from Bass I don't really know who else to vote for and don't really want to spend more time on it. Elohcin if you're innocent i'm TRULY SORRY and to everyone else, please don't bandwagon. I don't want to be responsible for lynching an innocent. That's probably what got Golden killed.

Hey Sloonei, look at the bit i just bolded up there in that quote.

TinyBubbles, why don't you want to spend more time thinking about your vote? you have quite a long time before the deadline, and who knows who else might influence you? how you might feel yourself? and why trust me so thoroughly as you just drop a vote on the one name i gave you as a suspect?

I could think of 2 reasons TinyBubbles might drop a vote so early on your main suspect:

1) Possibly he's buddying up to you, and wants you to think he's a civ by comparison.

2) If Elo is lynched and flips civ, he could use it as a way to put responsibility on you. I.e. "I only voted Elo because I agreed with JJJ" or something along those lines.

I can think of 2 also:
1) Possibly following those he/she trusts with her/his vote. When I was playing my first few games I often did the same.
2) Is unsure of trusting her/his own instinct and feels better to trust someone else's.

Teeth it seems you are looking for any reason to suspect Bubbles. Can you not think of a new noob reason? Why you would assume to label her vote as a baddie ploy?

It makes me want to eye you more closely if anything.

[Roxy]

How do votes normally play out on this site? Is it typical for some players to cast votes super early in the day, as we've seen a bit of today? Or do people usually wait for the end of the phase before using it?
On RYM we usually have unlimited vote changes and everyone's voting and unvoting every twenty seconds.

Usually we have no votes the first 24 hours we discuss and we lay out our suspicions/cases and gives those were are unsure of a chance to respond and see if their response gives us more of a bad feeling or makes us feel better about them.

[Roxy]

when y'all were spectating Turnip Head in champs game #3, did your brains melt when 300 different players all claimed cop?

Yes, that was so insane, lol.

I'm definitely taking advantage of mafia norms elsewhere to introduce to folks here. But I also plan on enjoying continuing to subject others to our ways of insanity as well. It's refreshing to play different approaches, in my opinion.

I like different approaches as well I just hope our uniqueness does not get lost in translation.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

How do votes normally play out on this site? Is it typical for some players to cast votes super early in the day, as we've seen a bit of today? Or do people usually wait for the end of the phase before using it?
On RYM we usually have unlimited vote changes and everyone's voting and unvoting every twenty seconds.

Usually we have no votes the first 24 hours we discuss and we lay out our suspicions/cases and gives those were are unsure of a chance to respond and see if their response gives us more of a bad feeling or makes us feel better about them.

this would make a lot more sense than the speed-voting we've seen in this phase.

[Roxy]

Those two things have totally different meanings to me. Keeping an eye on = fairly neutral read but still wary. Suspecting = something more substantial

I agree here
btw Happy Sunday whore <3

[Roxy]

I don't think Elo's bad. Especially her recent reactions read genuinely to me.

I thought TinyBubbles' vote for Elo was sketchy because, if you look back through Bubbles' posts, she was setting up suspicion of Bass and only Bass, but then MP and Jay make one post each talking about Elo being a better option, and Bubbles immediately rolls with that. The line "If you're a civvie Elo I'm so so sorry!" reeks a bit because if Bubbles was really sorry she wouldn't have voted a player she's not suspicious of. And I think it's a little hokey to allude to someone being lynched when you're literally the first person to cast a vote for that person.

That said, I thought I saw one thing in Bubbles' filter that made me think she's on the level and just playing a little loosely. So I guess what I'd like is Bubbles' answer to the following "Why abandon your read on Bass and piggyback onto the suspicion of Jay and MP?" I believe Bubbles mentioned trusting those two, and I don't think they're baddies either atm, but it doesn't mean they're right about everything either.

MP, can you once again lay out why you don't think Elo's thought process can come from a civ perspective? We've both played many games with her, we both know her perspective is not always the same as everyone else's, so I'm curious exactly what you're seeing there. And what happened to your splints' suspicion?

Got one foot on each side of the fence I see. Makes it nice for you after lynch amirite?

You do not think you should slow your roll with this early voting method after Goldens lynch?

Are you ever going to respond to any of my questions?

[Roxy]

f but i can't help but be concerned about a player with one suspicious encounter early in the game and nothing else since other than a little detached commentary and off-topic posting.

I think she might be busy and bad.

I trust your read- can you elaborate for me?

[Roxy]

who has your attention for the wrong reasons, TH?

I think we would be worse off if I shared that at this time, Jay.

Makes no sense. How will we be worse off knowing where your suspicions lie? Keeping your suspicions (and reasoning) to yourself only helps the baddies imo. Besides you really should explain your votes when you make them so early when you obv have to come back and post 0- why not say why you are voting when you are voting?

[Roxy]

About half my posts today (exaggeration) should have probably been in OT green, sorry skimmers.

Not an exaggeration tbh. lrn2useotgrn peoples!!!!!