Death and Taxes: An Economics Mafia [DAY 7]

[Black Rock]

I haven't dropped off the planet I am trying to catch up. I hate catching up on so much volume, it buggers me up. I see Splints still suspects me as well as a few others.

Thanks, sanmateo. I look forward to hearing your answers to other questions and what you think of others as well.

Sloonei, so I am looking through splints's posts again because I'm revisiting my suspicion of her, and I'm uncovering again that she's been issuing a lot of wishywashy statements and I did find it notable that she couldn't even name a top suspect when I asked her yesterday (but then went on to say she still really suspects BR). I'd like to amend my post to say that she might be my 3rd suspect (pushing her back up again), but I'm not certain just yet.

I think you should reconsider who you call wishy washy when you have been drastically up and down in your suspicions. You are pressuring me to name more suspicions. I have and if that isn't good enough for you so be it.

I suspect BR for the defense of MP. A bunch of you didn't suspect it because you trust MP and all suspect Elo, but I understood what she was saying about MP. She wasn't calling him "mean", and I felt she was trying to be tactful about it, but he exploded at Epi and played the victim. (His word choice. Not mine) I feel like BR jumped on that and defended MP. I have been wishy washy about MP because as I said I'm not going to waste a shit ton of time debating how I feel about a player when my read on them is pretty dependant on someone else.

I'm voting BR now.

I don't think you should consider wishywashy as an insult; it certainly isn't. I am pressuring you because that's part of the game, is it not? I'm unclear as to where you're at, so I've been asking for clarification.

I don't see where everyone is saying they trust me; I've arguably had more heat on me than anyone else. As usual, I'll likely get lynched at some point.

So, to be clear, my alignment is dependent on BR as follows: If she flips mafia, I'm mafia, and vice versa? Or something else?

BR and pretty much all the new guys have mentioned trust in you to a degree. And I would definitely argue you having the most heat. Mostly only Epi was after you

No. Your alignment does not depend on her alignment. Your alignment depends on that role PM the hosts sent on you. But as with every other game, gaining information allows us to form opinions on others. I've discussed everything. I feel like everyone is stuck on these reads and we cant move on til we have more information.

Now I have to check my own posts, I don't remember saying I trust MP. I think you are trying to make a mountain out of nothing with me. You are taking my words and stringing them into something to try and paint me as bad.

You didn't say specifically "I trust MP"
I still think you defended him, which would mean you think he is good. Do you not have any trust in someone you think is good enough to defend them? I think you are nitpicking at my word choice and trying to defend by saying you didn't say that word when it's clear you expressed a similar sentiment although not that specific word

I'll respond to the points in the latest ISO about me later. I'll try and respond to the latest massive post about me later since I'm on my phone but if there are any specific posts people want from me now they will have to reiterate them in post that won't take me forever to pick apart on my phone

I don't think it's nitpicking at all. I think putting the word in trust goes a lot further than what I actually said. By saying I defended him and trusted him his misleading. There is a difference in trusting a player and understanding a players actions. If you can't see that then take off the blinders.

[Tangrowth]

FYI I've been busy. I'll be around again sometime this afternoon or tonight Central time.

[sanmateo]

i've had a family emergency so i'm not really in the mood for this now, sorry. idk if i should place a vote. i might ask for a replacement later today.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

TinyBubbles, let me ask you something:

How convinced are you that Bass is mafia? Do you think there is any chance you could change your mind about it later? And if for some reason you hadn't voted for him earlier like you did (such as not being online for example), do you think there's any chance you could vote for someone else after reading more of what people have to say?

Yes I know those are weird questions, but I'm trying to figure something out here.

[Turnip Head]

I want to hear more from BR.

[birdwithteeth11]

birdwithteeth11

I tend to wait as late as I possibly can to vote. When RL doesn't get in the way, sometimes it is 30 minutes or less before the poll ends. I like to wait as late as possible because I want as much information as I can get before I vote. Sometimes things happen towards the end of a lynch period that make me change my mind.

i would echo these sentiments. my vote ended up useless, so functionally i was no better in the tally than BTW11 was. i waited as long as i could because it was only bloody vote and i wanted to make the best use of it. eventually though the tally became a landslide and it didn't matter anymore. i think players of both alignments will generally be more interesting in holding their votes to ensure total control over their part in the result.

We agree here. Not much for me to note really.

And it wasn't RL that made me miss the vote. It was me trying to catch up in the thread and losing track of time. I thought I had more time than I did, looked down, and noticed I had almost no time left to vote. So I panicked and went to try and vote, and it had already gone past the deadline.

this bit thought must be believed or not believed at face value. i do struggle to envision myself encountering this dilemma at least -- if i am active in a game near the end of the phase, then my eyes are frequently visiting the clock on the computer. losing track of time at a stage when time is critically important would be a pretty big flub. i can also ask myself though if there's anything a mafioso stands to gain from skipping a vote intentionally instead of just dropping it on someone ineffectively.

With some hosts, missing votes causes one to not be allowed to use their night abilities. Not sure what the policy is with llama and Russ in this game. But I think for mafia, it's more about voting patterns rather than if one votes or doesn't vote.

i'd like to echo a point made by sanmateo and Sloonei. DDL has put a lot of work into describing why he wouldn't play the way he has played as mafia. and in so doing, he has acknowledged the WIFOM nature of that mindset. this would make him a very self-aware mafioso.

but wait, what if he is very self-aware of the notion of being a self-aware mafioso? let's visit his comment directed at me:

If you are mafia, you are one of the most self-aware players I've ever seen.

this could be called an unintentional self-diagnosis.

Hmmmmmm....interesting. I'll go back and look at it myself.

this tweaked me a little bit. the point i made there against DDL was pretty specific, meaning the chances of it being grounded in reality were inherently not as high as some of the assertions i've made in this thread. what was interesting about it, BWT? have you looked back yet, and if so what did you find?

I did. I'll double-check, but I think the next quote I pulled and posted after my post here was about that. If I did comment on it, I'll just link to the post.

i threw my vote on Elo. every other option is mathematically impossible. and she's a red read. so cool beans.

Same point here. Why throwing a vote that has no chance of changing anything?

You did point right after that that you were aware of the possibility of mafia knowing the lynch was inevitable though, which is interesting. If you are mafia, you are one of the most self-aware players I've ever seen.

If someone votes for a player that has no chance of getting lynched in, say, one or two lynches in a game, that's different IMO from someone who constantly does it throughout the game. Once or twice (or more if it's the same person over and over) I'm okay with because I generally interpret it as a civ thing to be going after the player you are most suspicious of. If one person gives it enough attention over time, it can cause other people to go and examine exactly what the original poster is seeing with a certain player.

Now if you're voting for people who have no chance of being lynched, and constantly throw your vote around on different players, then I view that as more absolving yourself of a lynch. Which looks more like a baddie act.

So I don't think "throwing a vote that has no chance of changing anything" is an exercise in futility. It can pay off down the road sometimes.

i'm not exactly sure what point BWT11 is making here, so i am just hoping he can clarify? it sounds like he is lending me a little support for my late Elohcin vote, but the reason for his support doesn't make sense as i understand it. it seems he is suggesting i was piling on Elohcin because it'd get more attention on her later in the game from other players seeking to understand my case against her. but she was about to be lynched and thus die, so that is a strange concept. can you reword this somehow?

i was gut-leaning town on this guy earlier in the game, but i have less conviction for that now.

That post was directed at DDL, not at you. I was stating that I felt that voting someone who doesn't have a chance of getting lynched isn't necessarily a futile effort or a baddie trying to withhold any responsibility with their vote. And I felt like DDL's statement was that since I did that with Bass, that that's automatically a bad thing. I think it takes more evidence and context than such a simple declaration.

[birdwithteeth11]

LOL the hosts are on the poll! Were they before? I don't think so.

Don't vote for me. I have modkills and I'm not afraid to use them.

In that case...

Baddies, please vote for the hosts and save us the trouble. :P

[birdwithteeth11]

I think we should talk about this. Who would rather be taxed $1 every 3 Days? Who would rather be taxed 30% of all earnings?

I'd almost think 30% of all earnings would hurt the mafia more on one condition...

@Hosts: Feel free to ignore this if someone else already asked it before I finished my catch-up, but...

Are the mafia allowed to pool their income and resources together or not?

[thellama73]

I think we should talk about this. Who would rather be taxed $1 every 3 Days? Who would rather be taxed 30% of all earnings?

I'd almost think 30% of all earnings would hurt the mafia more on one condition...

@Hosts: Feel free to ignore this if someone else already asked it before I finished my catch-up, but...

Are the mafia allowed to pool their income and resources together or not?

What do you think this is, Communist Mafia? We practice methodological individualism in this house!

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I think we should talk about this. Who would rather be taxed $1 every 3 Days? Who would rather be taxed 30% of all earnings?

I'd almost think 30% of all earnings would hurt the mafia more on one condition...

@Hosts: Feel free to ignore this if someone else already asked it before I finished my catch-up, but...

Are the mafia allowed to pool their income and resources together or not?

Well, I suppose they have Karl Marx for a reason.

Which means losing Marx would be a heavy blow to the faction.

[Black Rock]

I want to hear more from BR.

Did I miss something you asked?

[Turnip Head]

I want to hear more from BR.

Did I miss something you asked?

Nope. Does your opinion need to be solicited for you to share it? I feel like you're only spending time defending yourself or talking about how you need to catch up. I have no idea where you stand on suspicions.

[Roxy]

RIP Sloonei. great syndicate debut

I agree, Sloon played a very great first syndicate game and I hope to play again together soon.

I have caught and first would like to comment about Sloon and their posts during the night phase.
S/He went after both Dragon and Turnips fairly strongly only to be no u'ed by Dragon.

Dragon's first few posts this phase felt like h/she was giving a bit of preemptive defense of the way the vote went down. Then this bit of suspish thrown at jjj feels forced. S/He is still on about Bass and to me at this point seems like an easy suspicion knowing people are changing their minds bc of his game play so he suspicion seems easy. I could see myself voting for you.

TH came straight out of the gate with this "it would be a bad idea" post about jjj "vote" (in quote bc is has not happened yet). TH went after Golden and was wrong. TH defended Elo and he was wrong. Idk why anyone would trust his read on Dragon after that. I realize Elo was a sk but a baddie is a baddie imo. I never hunt specifically for a sk or mafia I look for baddies. To me they are all bad and must die.
He dismissed all of my questions bc "they were MOSTLY about Golden" - which is true but I had posted other questions and tbf some of my questions regarding Golden would help try to comprehend why he is playing the way he is. It deffo does not seem like helpful town behavior. Your continued effort to discuss butter and guns and the fact that the hosts are on the lynch poll feels distracting. Why didn't you discuss guns and butter at night so we can discuss lynch picks during the day. I doubt very srsly that civvies would give up their only tool (a lynch) of getting rid of baddies just to vote for a host inre: taxes 0 and if anyone does they will deffo be getting an from me. I really think you will be getting my vote today.

Bass was also on Sloon's radar but tbh I feel like s/he just does not understand his game style. I am still trusting Bass.

-------------------
jjj - glad you liked my post bc i did it mainly for you bc I felt bad about our prior exchange. I understand why I am still orange but I appreciate you taking my game style for what it is and also for giving me a chance to prove my worth.
MP is always a high poster irregardless of alignment. We have had actual posting contests in games before I believe he has won at least one or two of them. So yep normal. splints is right she does not read roles until Day 4 (at least from what i remember) I am the same in that regard bc I do not hunt specific roles I just hunt for baddies. She will find something (a vibe or post) she thinks is bad and like a kitteh with catnip she will just go crazy and vote with her own suspicion and will not give a fuck who agrees or disagrees.

ATE - I think splints case on you has merit I do not think your responses (or lack thereof) have helped you. She has good instincts when baddie hunting and I trust her read on you bc I got the same vibe from your posts as she did. You also semi clearing Dragon bc of Sloon's death feels odd to me. I could deffo follow her and vote for you today.

Teeth - I am still having this twitch in my nose about you. I cannot seem to shake it. Its the tone of your posts the explanations you give and just your general lack of actually hunting baddies. I know very few are seeing what I am but just so you and I both know my are still firmly on you.

BR - hope you are feeling better. And I hope you can find time before lynch end to make a full response to splints and her case. It kinda feels like you are avoiding. Its pingy tbh. I did read the bit about trust/understanding so I am waiting for more. More suspicions and more "you" in the game.

Mateo - I hope everything is ok sending good vibes your way! I am not feeling you =r jjj suspicion mostly bc i have been reading him as civ. You do have experience with him so I will watch him more closely but for right now he is civ to me.

and I am done with my catch up and here is where I stand for now.

[Vompatti]

Voted for Llama for science.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Just realized i missed Vompatti in my last rainbow. Call him slightly more town than the mean.

[Roxy]

Voted for Llama for science.

Did you just vote llama bc I had just posted that I would anyone who voted one of the Hosts?

[Vompatti]

Voted for Llama for science.

Did you just vote llama bc I had just posted that I would anyone who voted one of the Hosts?

No, I didn't even read that post.

[S~V~S]

Spoiler: show

Hey look, it's a spoiler tag~!!

If I find a better one compatible with our board, I will update. Back to killing each other, toodles

[JaggedJimmyJay]

But you read that post. Vompatti is doing the real leg work in here.

[Vompatti]

But you read that post. Vompatti is doing the real leg work in here.

I read this one too. I only read short posts.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

thank you so much S~V~S. i can make good use of that for sure.

my huge posts are about to get easier on the eyes, everyone.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Your continued effort to discuss butter and guns and the fact that the hosts are on the lynch poll feels distracting. Why didn't you discuss guns and butter at night so we can discuss lynch picks during the day. I doubt very srsly that civvies would give up their only tool (a lynch) of getting rid of baddies just to vote for a host inre: taxes 0 and if anyone does they will deffo be getting an from me.

agreed. i admit though that this particular economics mechanic confuses me. if we're seriously meant to use our votes on the mods to trigger something, then count me out. we don't know whether we're even rid of one mafia player yet, there's no room for these shenanigans.

[Sloonei]

Spoiler: show

:o thanks

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I facepalm at anyone who says they are against discussion of items or abilities.

Those are a huge part of the game. You can't just ignore them, because they're being used all the time. And you can be pretty damn sure mafia is discussing how to use their items to fuck with this lynch and future ones.

I mean, I understand the suspicion if someone just discusses game mechanics and nothing else. That's scummy to me. But attacking anyone who talks about strategy? That's naive.

Maybe it's forum culture so you guys are just not used to it. But where I come from everybody knows that knowing how to deal with abilities can win or lose a game.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I did. I'll double-check, but I think the next quote I pulled and posted after my post here was about that. If I did comment on it, I'll just link to the post.

this was your next post:

Spoiler: show

i threw my vote on Elo. every other option is mathematically impossible. and she's a red read. so cool beans.

Same point here. Why throwing a vote that has no chance of changing anything?

You did point right after that that you were aware of the possibility of mafia knowing the lynch was inevitable though, which is interesting. If you are mafia, you are one of the most self-aware players I've ever seen.

If someone votes for a player that has no chance of getting lynched in, say, one or two lynches in a game, that's different IMO from someone who constantly does it throughout the game. Once or twice (or more if it's the same person over and over) I'm okay with because I generally interpret it as a civ thing to be going after the player you are most suspicious of. If one person gives it enough attention over time, it can cause other people to go and examine exactly what the original poster is seeing with a certain player.

Now if you're voting for people who have no chance of being lynched, and constantly throw your vote around on different players, then I view that as more absolving yourself of a lynch. Which looks more like a baddie act.

So I don't think "throwing a vote that has no chance of changing anything" is an exercise in futility. It can pay off down the road sometimes.

did you mean something you said here was relevant to the post i raised doubts about?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I facepalm at anyone who says they are against discussion of items or abilities.

Those are a huge part of the game. You can't just ignore them, because they're being used all the time. And you can be pretty damn sure mafia is discussing how to use their items to fuck with this lynch and future ones.

I mean, I understand the suspicion if someone just discusses game mechanics and nothing else. That's scummy to me. But attacking anyone who talks about strategy? That's naive.

Maybe it's forum culture so you guys are just not used to it. But where I come from everybody knows that knowing how to deal with abilities can win or lose a game.

i don't object to talking about it. but do you think it'd be at all wise to "lynch" one of the hosts instead of a suspect to trigger this Day 3 mechanic?

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I facepalm at anyone who says they are against discussion of items or abilities.

Those are a huge part of the game. You can't just ignore them, because they're being used all the time. And you can be pretty damn sure mafia is discussing how to use their items to fuck with this lynch and future ones.

I mean, I understand the suspicion if someone just discusses game mechanics and nothing else. That's scummy to me. But attacking anyone who talks about strategy? That's naive.

Maybe it's forum culture so you guys are just not used to it. But where I come from everybody knows that knowing how to deal with abilities can win or lose a game.

i don't object to talking about it. but do you think it'd be at all wise to "lynch" one of the hosts instead of a suspect to trigger this Day 3 mechanic?

I don't. I think it isn't worth the price of failing to lynch scum.

My point was that I support discussion of game mechanics, even if I'm against using one of them.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

i outright encourage discussion of mechanics (within the rules) on the condition that anyone doing so is also talking about reads. RYM games trend more in the direction of mountainous setups (but are still wildly variable) so my experience with this kind of thing is limited.

[sanmateo]

i'm gonna keep playing (not today tho), main suspect still ddl bc of the wifom thing, i also dont think openly discussing abilities is that helpful unless you roleclaim with info about a scum. which cant really happen here.

also, op states what happens if you lynch one of the hosts, so go there maybe

[JaggedJimmyJay]

hope all's well sanmateo.

[sanmateo]

the only way getting rid of taxes seems to be lynching a scum btw

[sanmateo]

hope all's well sanmateo.

thanks, it is.

[Tangrowth]

sanmateo, I'm sorry to hear about that! Glad to hear everything's okay though.

So while it was nice to have a couple of days off completely, I really probably goofed, and especially since my new class started today, I find myself ridiculously swamped.

Consequently, I'm going to up all night working on PhD work, and haven't really had a chance to even properly read this game. Sorry, folks. I'll try to be back with my thoughts before the vote.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

i don't feel much better about Black Rock after her brief appearance today. she addressed the concerns expressed by fingersplints and nobody else:

I don't think it's nitpicking at all. I think putting the word in trust goes a lot further than what I actually said. By saying I defended him and trusted him his misleading. There is a difference in trusting a player and understanding a players actions. If you can't see that then take off the blinders.

and that response doesn't inspire much confidence. i don't like the continued denial of having defended MP on Day 1 (especially since it was never actually suspicious until that denial), and i don't like the snappy bit i highlighted. it bears the appearance of an indignant mafioso.

i still don't know what her reads are on anyone.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

oh hey, TH said that same thing. give him credit, he was first.

I have no idea where you stand on suspicions.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

out for the night. i hope this game picks up a little bit over the final stretch of the day phase. it's been pretty dead. my vote is very likely to go to either aether or Black Rock.

[Golden]

it's been pretty dead.

Hey! That's offensive!

[Black Rock]

I want to hear more from BR.

Did I miss something you asked?

Nope. Does your opinion need to be solicited for you to share it? I feel like you're only spending time defending yourself or talking about how you need to catch up. I have no idea where you stand on suspicions.

Well no, the problem is I was in bed for 2 and half days. I fell way behind on this game and I haven't found my groove because of that. I assumed when you wanted to hear "more" from me you were expecting something in particular. I've only had time to defend myself and I haven't caught up. I think I'm going to move forward from here. The suspicions in this game have been up and down and thrown around so eagerly that my head was spinning. I feel like you have a bone to pick with me and yet you're not just coming out and saying it. Is your idea to push just enough to try and back me in a corner before I turn on you? We can always have our dance TH, I do love it so much. It's a good time to make your move, I haven't found my footing yet.

[Black Rock]

i don't feel much better about Black Rock after her brief appearance today. she addressed the concerns expressed by fingersplints and nobody else:

I don't think it's nitpicking at all. I think putting the word in trust goes a lot further than what I actually said. By saying I defended him and trusted him his misleading. There is a difference in trusting a player and understanding a players actions. If you can't see that then take off the blinders.

and that response doesn't inspire much confidence. i don't like the continued denial of having defended MP on Day 1 (especially since it was never actually suspicious until that denial), and i don't like the snappy bit i highlighted. it bears the appearance of an indignant mafioso.

i still don't know what her reads are on anyone.

Honestly if you're expecting a long post full of quotes or me naming a bunch of players and giving reads on them it's not my style.

For my suspicions? I am a little suspicious of Splints and TH. It can be a total No U at this point. They have had lots of time to sow their seeds. The way I'm reading it now is Splints is doing all the accusations and TH is sitting behind her with an extra push. Otherwise I haven't paid much attention to anyone else in the past few real life days. That I can admit is not good.

[Turnip Head]

TH came straight out of the gate with this "it would be a bad idea" post about jjj "vote" (in quote bc is has not happened yet). TH went after Golden and was wrong. TH defended Elo and he was wrong. Idk why anyone would trust his read on Dragon after that. I realize Elo was a sk but a baddie is a baddie imo. I never hunt specifically for a sk or mafia I look for baddies. To me they are all bad and must die.
He dismissed all of my questions bc "they were MOSTLY about Golden" - which is true but I had posted other questions and tbf some of my questions regarding Golden would help try to comprehend why he is playing the way he is. It deffo does not seem like helpful town behavior. Your continued effort to discuss butter and guns and the fact that the hosts are on the lynch poll feels distracting. Why didn't you discuss guns and butter at night so we can discuss lynch picks during the day. I doubt very srsly that civvies would give up their only tool (a lynch) of getting rid of baddies just to vote for a host inre: taxes 0 and if anyone does they will deffo be getting an from me. I really think you will be getting my vote today.

Continued efforts to talk about guns and butter? I think I made 1 or 2 posts on the subject, and they WERE during the Night. Why didn't I talk about the taxes thing until Day? Because it didn't occur to me to talk about the taxes thing until today when the hosts showed up on the poll. It put serious stock into the taxes being a legit mechanic, and possibly a way to fuel suspicions. I do think one of the two tax options is more beneficial to the baddies than to the civvies so it might be interesting to get an inventory of opinions on the subject. The point was not to be distracting, even if you felt distracted by it.

I didn't say your questions were all about Golden, I actually said they were mostly about TinyBubbles, that's who you were questioning me about Day 2. I wanted to point out that I never voted TinyBubbles, and most of your questions to me were about me voting for her.

That said I realize how, in your mind, my behavior re: TinyBubbles could be connected to my behavior re: Golden, and thus it's still important to you. My explanation is that I voted Golden Day 1 because it was Day 1 and I wanted to generate some discussion. I suspected Golden at the time of my vote, but if you read my posts I think it's clear that I was reconsidering my original hard read of him. That said I was happy with my vote as a Day 1 vote, a time when votes are mostly random or generate no discussion at all, and I obviously regret that it led to a bandwagon. Honestly I never expected that to be the result of my vote.

All I would ask from you Roxy is that you consider all my actions with the lens that I am a civvie playing this way. If you still can't reconcile it, I understand if you vote for me again. But at least consider it.

[Turnip Head]

i don't feel much better about Black Rock after her brief appearance today. she addressed the concerns expressed by fingersplints and nobody else:

I don't think it's nitpicking at all. I think putting the word in trust goes a lot further than what I actually said. By saying I defended him and trusted him his misleading. There is a difference in trusting a player and understanding a players actions. If you can't see that then take off the blinders.

and that response doesn't inspire much confidence. i don't like the continued denial of having defended MP on Day 1 (especially since it was never actually suspicious until that denial), and i don't like the snappy bit i highlighted. it bears the appearance of an indignant mafioso.

i still don't know what her reads are on anyone.

Honestly if you're expecting a long post full of quotes or me naming a bunch of players and giving reads on them it's not my style.

For my suspicions? I am a little suspicious of Splints and TH. It can be a total No U at this point. They have had lots of time to sow their seeds. The way I'm reading it now is Splints is doing all the accusations and TH is sitting behind her with an extra push. Otherwise I haven't paid much attention to anyone else in the past few real life days. That I can admit is not good.

So your only suspects are the people who suspect you Do you think splintsy is wrong to suspect you at this point? Do you think I'm wrong to?

[Black Rock]

i don't feel much better about Black Rock after her brief appearance today. she addressed the concerns expressed by fingersplints and nobody else:

I don't think it's nitpicking at all. I think putting the word in trust goes a lot further than what I actually said. By saying I defended him and trusted him his misleading. There is a difference in trusting a player and understanding a players actions. If you can't see that then take off the blinders.

and that response doesn't inspire much confidence. i don't like the continued denial of having defended MP on Day 1 (especially since it was never actually suspicious until that denial), and i don't like the snappy bit i highlighted. it bears the appearance of an indignant mafioso.

i still don't know what her reads are on anyone.

Honestly if you're expecting a long post full of quotes or me naming a bunch of players and giving reads on them it's not my style.

For my suspicions? I am a little suspicious of Splints and TH. It can be a total No U at this point. They have had lots of time to sow their seeds. The way I'm reading it now is Splints is doing all the accusations and TH is sitting behind her with an extra push. Otherwise I haven't paid much attention to anyone else in the past few real life days. That I can admit is not good.

So your only suspects are the people who suspect you Do you think splintsy is wrong to suspect you at this point? Do you think I'm wrong to?

Well from my perspective yes. You are wrong so the way I see it you are seeing something that is not there and is wrong. That is my perspective, but you don't know what I do.

[Turnip Head]

For my suspicions? I am a little suspicious of Splints and TH. It can be a total No U at this point. They have had lots of time to sow their seeds. The way I'm reading it now is Splints is doing all the accusations and TH is sitting behind her with an extra push. Otherwise I haven't paid much attention to anyone else in the past few real life days. That I can admit is not good.

So your only suspects are the people who suspect you Do you think splintsy is wrong to suspect you at this point? Do you think I'm wrong to?

Well from my perspective yes. You are wrong so the way I see it you are seeing something that is not there and is wrong. That is my perspective, but you don't know what I do.

Something being wrong isn't the same as something not being there. You haven't discussed any suspicions until just now. I know you've been sick, and the thread is large, but a civvie BR would, in my opinion still find ways to get involved in the hunt.

But okay, you don't know what I know either! I'm not bad, and by extension I'm hesitant to trust your take on splintsy, but for the sake of argument let's say she's civvie too, because I think her reasons for suspecting you are valid. Who are your suspects if me and splintsy are both civs, BR?

And for what it's worth I'm not buying you being suspicious of me We do this dance far too often, you and I, for you to have not thought anything of my previous behavior in this game, for this to be the only thing I've done that's caught your eye.

[Black Rock]

For my suspicions? I am a little suspicious of Splints and TH. It can be a total No U at this point. They have had lots of time to sow their seeds. The way I'm reading it now is Splints is doing all the accusations and TH is sitting behind her with an extra push. Otherwise I haven't paid much attention to anyone else in the past few real life days. That I can admit is not good.

So your only suspects are the people who suspect you Do you think splintsy is wrong to suspect you at this point? Do you think I'm wrong to?

Well from my perspective yes. You are wrong so the way I see it you are seeing something that is not there and is wrong. That is my perspective, but you don't know what I do.

Something being wrong isn't the same as something not being there. You haven't discussed any suspicions until just now. I know you've been sick, and the thread is large, but a civvie BR would, in my opinion still find ways to get involved in the hunt.

But okay, you don't know what I know either! I'm not bad, and by extension I'm hesitant to trust your take on splintsy, but for the sake of argument let's say she's civvie too, because I think her reasons for suspecting you are valid. Who are your suspects if me and splintsy are both civs, BR?

And for what it's worth I'm not buying you being suspicious of me We do this dance far too often, you and I, for you to have not thought anything of my previous behavior in this game, for this to be the only thing I've done that's caught your eye.

Well if you are both civs then i am wrong. It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong about either of you. I don't think both of you are civs. Between the two of you I'm leaning more baddie on Splints then you. BTW I love playing with you, dancing and all. As for the underlined part, you are right. I didn't like how you hopped on Golden. I think you were trying to take the easy way out on day 1.

I think it's pretty dangerous that people are taking the notion that one of the 5 players to kickstart the game MUST be scum as a foregone conclusion. That encourages a narrower focus of suspicion not only in Day 1, but in all ensuing days until the alleged scum is identified.

There's more to Mafia than mere probability.

I agree.

Consequentially, I'm voting for Golden. I think he's bad news this game.

I was planning on voting first.

I would like to hear more from Turnip Head. What are your thoughts on JaggedJimmyJay? Or any of the new members of the Syndicate?

Why is Golden bad news in your eyes? Is it that he is playing the role of mediator/player representative? I've been doing the same, thought with less generalization.

I'm mixed on JJJ. A few of his posts stand out but he's the kind of player where the more he posts the more we'll get to see if he slips up.

No strong thoughts on any of the new players but I don't suspect any of them yet.

Golden is not acting very Golden-like, if you ask me.

Really? Well I guess you are very good at knowing how a person should be in a game. Yet...

So, why does that make me bad enough to vote for?

Weird way to phrase the question but anyways...

It doesn't make you bad enough to vote for. It just makes you enough to vote for on Day 1 to get some reactions. I think we've gotten a few, haven't we?

If you had to vote right now for the person you most think is bad, who would you vote for?

After several posts of Golden is bad, your move Golden etc. You place this post as an easy out. Don't think I didn't see what you were doing here. I probably would have brought you up earlier if the disease hadn't taken over my life when it did.

[Black Rock]

You got what you wanted TH, you put me back in the game and made me do work.

I'm going to go ahead and vote TinyBubbles.

What? Sure, TinyBubbles was working on flawed logic but instead of questioning it you just jump right on a vote? Seems like another easy way out.

I don't think Elo's bad. Especially her recent reactions read genuinely to me.

I thought TinyBubbles' vote for Elo was sketchy because, if you look back through Bubbles' posts, she was setting up suspicion of Bass and only Bass, but then MP and Jay make one post each talking about Elo being a better option, and Bubbles immediately rolls with that. The line "If you're a civvie Elo I'm so so sorry!" reeks a bit because if Bubbles was really sorry she wouldn't have voted a player she's not suspicious of. And I think it's a little hokey to allude to someone being lynched when you're literally the first person to cast a vote for that person.

That said, I thought I saw one thing in Bubbles' filter that made me think she's on the level and just playing a little loosely. So I guess what I'd like is Bubbles' answer to the following "Why abandon your read on Bass and piggyback onto the suspicion of Jay and MP?" I believe Bubbles mentioned trusting those two, and I don't think they're baddies either atm, but it doesn't mean they're right about everything either.

MP, can you once again lay out why you don't think Elo's thought process can come from a civ perspective? We've both played many games with her, we both know her perspective is not always the same as everyone else's, so I'm curious exactly what you're seeing there. And what happened to your splints' suspicion?

Interesting, especially when paired with this...

Why are you trying to divert suspicion to me TH? I thought we were friends

WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM

[Black Rock]

And you make some good points about BR. I look forward to her response.

It starts here I imagine. I haven't seen anything about me before this post.

Black Rock is a really hard read. She has not contributed much, but it could be related to RL busyness. It could also be related to RL busyness AND being bad. She's missed both votes, FWIW.

And I do not discount the idea that splintsy and BR could be bad together, but I'm more inclined to look BR's way first, since I think splints might be onto something with her post about MP.

Now I have to check my own posts, I don't remember saying I trust MP.

It shouldn't take you too long :P And you didn't say that. I'm looking carefully at what you did say though and wondering if you had an ulterior motive for responding the way you did to Elo in the post in question.

This is so non-committal. Just a post so you did actually discuss me.

I want to hear more from BR.

Where I start to respond to you. I feel caught up.

So somewhere back there you mentioned that you must have posted other things to catch my attention. You were right, I was being lazy. I would say though the biggest thing for me would still be the subtle backing of any suspicion of me without saying much of anything is the biggest ping.

Crap I forgot to mention you did go through a period of asking semi-relevant questions to stay involved without giving an opinion. That's always ping worthy.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Black Rock brings the fire. Fascinating.

The good thing about her most recent posts:

~ interesting dirt against TH. she picked up on some of the more subtle bits of his posts (and splints') that i'd not considered before.

Bad things:

~ OMGUS

~ no suspects stated beyond that even when specifically prompted.

This exchange increases my confidence that there's at least one mafioso between BR and TH.

[fingersplints]

You got what you wanted TH, you put me back in the game and made me do work.

I'm going to go ahead and vote TinyBubbles.

What? Sure, TinyBubbles was working on flawed logic but instead of questioning it you just jump right on a vote? Seems like another easy way out.

I don't think Elo's bad. Especially her recent reactions read genuinely to me.

I thought TinyBubbles' vote for Elo was sketchy because, if you look back through Bubbles' posts, she was setting up suspicion of Bass and only Bass, but then MP and Jay make one post each talking about Elo being a better option, and Bubbles immediately rolls with that. The line "If you're a civvie Elo I'm so so sorry!" reeks a bit because if Bubbles was really sorry she wouldn't have voted a player she's not suspicious of. And I think it's a little hokey to allude to someone being lynched when you're literally the first person to cast a vote for that person.

That said, I thought I saw one thing in Bubbles' filter that made me think she's on the level and just playing a little loosely. So I guess what I'd like is Bubbles' answer to the following "Why abandon your read on Bass and piggyback onto the suspicion of Jay and MP?" I believe Bubbles mentioned trusting those two, and I don't think they're baddies either atm, but it doesn't mean they're right about everything either.

MP, can you once again lay out why you don't think Elo's thought process can come from a civ perspective? We've both played many games with her, we both know her perspective is not always the same as everyone else's, so I'm curious exactly what you're seeing there. And what happened to your splints' suspicion?

Interesting, especially when paired with this...

Why are you trying to divert suspicion to me TH? I thought we were friends

WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM

This isn't called WIFOM. It's called a joke.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

The next person to posts some reads gets 5 bucks on paypal

[acrosstheaether]

The next person to posts some reads gets 5 bucks on paypal

Do rainbows count, Jay?