[END] Talking Heads Mafia (RYM #90)

[TheFloyd73]

My first lack of inclusion was genuinely from stuff going on in my life that was messing with my head. And I will say AGAIN that if you wish to discuss this further, please PM me.

Has anyone PMed you?

No, not about that topic anyway. would you like to be the first?

Oh ok, like just from teammates?

I hope your head's ok now man.

Thanks, dude. Im feeling a little bit better, but the scars still remain

[motel room]

It's of interest to me because I think he might be right. But I don't think a townie is likely to come to this conclusion organically.

It's weirdly specific

Choutas?

[Matt]

My first lack of inclusion was genuinely from stuff going on in my life that was messing with my head. And I will say AGAIN that if you wish to discuss this further, please PM me.

Has anyone PMed you?

No, not about that topic anyway. would you like to be the first?

Can we lynch him now?

Nah, let's lynch Mac.

Be back in a bit.

[RadicalFuzz]

It's really annoying being seen as generally town-neutral but not town or dirty enough to get a fun color in everybody's fun-filled rainbow lists.

Wilgy talk coming up shortly.

[RadicalFuzz]

just because i can't explain it, doesn't mean it isn't well thought out and solid

You're not entirely wrong, but if you can't coherently explain what your theory is how do you expect people to look at it and form their own conclusions? We're not going to take your word that this theory you can't properly explain solves everything and we should blindly follow you.



On the topic of DrWilgy (spoilered to save space because apparently any mobile players are masochistic to a ridiculous extent):

Spoiler: show

JJJ is probably scum. Only 55% sure though

This is a completely useless post designed to make it appear as if Wilgy suspects J3 without having to actually put any substantial suspicions out into the thread. Research and post effort shouldn't be an issue, given Wilgy's history in this game, but he's content to say only this. He doesn't elaborate later, either, radio silence is preserved on this matter.

When I asked him how J3 was "probably scum" and what that would make me, as J3 has expressed nothing but townreads towards me, he responded with this:

You are still exempt from my lists. I'm still tone reading you as good though (maybe because of your avatar and friendly bias). A scum's interaction with other players is player based and I dont have enough meta history on JJJ to determine how he would interact with you (a new variable)

Wilgy doesn't believe the last sentence here. By his logic I'm literally unable to scumhunt since he's the only player I've played with or read before. It feels to me like a cheap post to reference later to explain a "long-standing suspicion" for a vote. I question him on that, and his response is lackluster again:

I'm exempt from your lists? That's a nice way of saying that you're intending to push me later without being held accountable for an opinion now. Thanks for the response.

and
Lol, you got me!

No, the player you subbed for just missed votes, so I don't have the intel to properly judge your actions and interactions.

You shouldn't need several days of votes from someone who was, in your words, a wallflower to form an opinion of that player's replacement. Reywas missed votes, yes, but Reywas isn't here anymore. You don't need to read Reywas, you need to read me, and you refuse to do that aside from an extremely non-committal "tone reading you as good," which apparently nearly everyone is.

I've been here, voting and talking. You require more than that to reach some form of basic conclusion? Did you not make any initial conclusions on the other players until Day 3?

I do. I assume that I know you better than anyone else here, and I don't want to make any false assumptions about you. I did make assumptions before day 3, and it was fun, but to be honest since then I've been hung up on day 2. I just noticed that you use the word conclusions. Why is this? Have you game solved already? Should the game have been already solved by others?

I don't like how he chooses to focus on wording here. I'd used the term "conclusions" in that context prior in the thread but he didn't seem to mind. Of course I don't mean to say that I have the game solved, he's attempting to draw attention from my other points by raising minor petty objections. He also says that he knows me better than anyone else here (implying he knows me well, which is true) but is worried about making false assumptions. There are no assumptions to make here, only logical conclusions, and his familiarity with me should decrease the occurrence of incorrect conclusions by at least a small margin.
He then asks who several players targeted last night. He's quickly shot down and claims he "invested so much" into that strategy.

Mac, Matt, Fuzz and Floyd, who did you target last night?

We had a fail kill and no psycho killer. Chances are one of y'all intervined, possibly in both, and y'all should know how. JJJ you should know as well.

I will explain everything as soon as I'm back from the renaissance festival.

JJJ, no beef, got much love for ya

Ugh... There goes that play. I invested so much into that too...

He apparently has become obsessed with trying to figure out if Floyd, Mac, Matt, or I stopped a night kill. So much so that he doesn't talk about his graph or color-coded vote data whatsoever.

Floyd, Fuzz, or Matt, did epi miss a night kill?

This specific post was after he was told that asking who a player targeted wasn't allowed. He's pushing this angle significantly more than any of his other points. He says absolutely nothing about any conclusions he draws from his vote data color-coding, and chooses to use the majority of his time on this gambit that seems increasingly likely to cross the line to infodumping.



His inability to draw conclusions based on vote data that he collected looks bad. The only conclusion he drew from the "point system" vote data analysis was that Golden was bad and deserved his vote. It is very unlikely that Golden was scum, so it wouldn't be illogical for Wilgy to discard vote data alone as a scumhunting tool. However, he continues to post vote data without using it to form any conclusions. This makes me believe he wants to appear as if he's still contributing a new angle to the thread without having to actually use the information. This, combined with his extreme hesitation in even attempting to read me, leads me to believe that he either doesn't want a trail or doesn't want to go on record saying something. Often attempting to say something known to be false opens cracks and inconsistencies with tone, it's the human factor at work. I believe Wilgy is explicitly trying to avoid this.

If you want a TL;DR the closest you're getting is the last paragraph of the spoiler.

DrWilgy

[Marmot]

I have a lot of mafia homweork to do, but unfortunately I've been drinkgin (or furtunately).

[RadicalFuzz]

If you've got a lot on your plate, MM, don't worry about making a case against me. Someone will eventually do it, even if it's only because I've been alive for a long time. I say this non-sarcastically.

[Marmot]

Theres so many people in this game fuzz. Fuzz. Fuz.

[Marmot]

It would be tought to force a case. Reading back over your posts would be a good idea, but tat doesn't mean I can make a case for you to be scum at the snap of a fingers.

[Marmot]

But Fuzz if you feel so inlciedn, you shouled make a case on me.

[Strawhenge]

Where I'm at is this: My personal read of Mac is somewhat scummy, but with JJJ and Choutas, who both know him well, believing in him, I have trouble going after him too hard.

Unless one or both of them are vouching for Mac for more unsavory reasons. I have no reason to believe that Mac, JJJ, or Choutas are scum, but I'm really behind on this game.

As Mac is the leader in the poll, would any kind soul like to lay out a quick nutshell on why? I'm seeing mention of an elaborate bussing scheme, but I'm not entirely onboard with that theory.

[MacDougall]

Because I am playing weird

[Strawhenge]

Placeholder on BR for now. Could be convinced to go with Mac today, or, to a lesser extent, Epi.

Don't wait to be convinced by others to vote for me. If you want to lynch me, convince others to do it.

And prepare for the consequences if you prove successful.

Thing is, I think you're more likely the SK than a baddie, and thus not worth going after for the moment. I also think we have really strong baddie leads to pursue first.

Also, you are much better at arguing than me, and until there's more natural head support I feel that going after you hard would end up with me dead and you laughing.

WHY do you think I'm a serial killer?

Just a meta thing. Every single game I've seen with you, you go after people HARD. When you're civ it's because you feel like the righteous right hand of a vengeful god bent on bringing destruction to evildoers, and when you're bad it's because you have the confidence of someone with a team backing them up. I'm not seeing that level of confident Epi right now.

Plus Mac is after you hard for being the SK, and I think he might be evil. You said yourself that baddies have the biggest incentive to get the SK out, so it makes sense.

Linki: Yeah, I do think that's rare. Opportunistic bussing is way more common.

Bullshit bullshit bullshit.

Why is that bullshit? He basically says he agrees with you that Epi is the SK.

[DrWilgy]

It's because he and russ are on the same team, or russ is Burning Down the House. Unless I missed something.

I think one of the players here know who SK is, but only Mac and Russ have come forth. They both say Epi and I believe.

Fuzz, you play with Alpha enough to know what I'm trying to do.

In the morning I will be off mobile and will adress everything.

[RadicalFuzz]

With the information that I believe you're trying to tell me with that, Wilgy, I don't see how that changes my conclusion. I don't have anything to work off of here, so rather than assume some hidden shenanigans I have to base my conclusions off of what I can see. You're not making me feel better by continually making vague statements that you can't or won't back up when that's a part of my suspicion against you. Until you can convince me otherwise, and I sincerely hope you do, my conclusion is that you're scum and my vote will stay on you.

Metalmarsh, I don't feel inclined to make a case that you're scum at this moment.

[MacDougall]

Placeholder on BR for now. Could be convinced to go with Mac today, or, to a lesser extent, Epi.

Don't wait to be convinced by others to vote for me. If you want to lynch me, convince others to do it.

And prepare for the consequences if you prove successful.

Thing is, I think you're more likely the SK than a baddie, and thus not worth going after for the moment. I also think we have really strong baddie leads to pursue first.

Also, you are much better at arguing than me, and until there's more natural head support I feel that going after you hard would end up with me dead and you laughing.

WHY do you think I'm a serial killer?

Just a meta thing. Every single game I've seen with you, you go after people HARD. When you're civ it's because you feel like the righteous right hand of a vengeful god bent on bringing destruction to evildoers, and when you're bad it's because you have the confidence of someone with a team backing them up. I'm not seeing that level of confident Epi right now.

Plus Mac is after you hard for being the SK, and I think he might be evil. You said yourself that baddies have the biggest incentive to get the SK out, so it makes sense.

Linki: Yeah, I do think that's rare. Opportunistic bussing is way more common.

Bullshit bullshit bullshit.

Why is that bullshit? He basically says he agrees with you that Epi is the SK.

So you are just ignoring the part where he said he thinks I might be evil.

I think he might be evil.

I think it's possible that maybe it's likely perhaps that he could potentially be scum.

[MacDougall]

With the information that I believe you're trying to tell me with that, Wilgy, I don't see how that changes my conclusion. I don't have anything to work off of here, so rather than assume some hidden shenanigans I have to base my conclusions off of what I can see. You're not making me feel better by continually making vague statements that you can't or won't back up when that's a part of my suspicion against you. Until you can convince me otherwise, and I sincerely hope you do, my conclusion is that you're scum and my vote will stay on you.

Metalmarsh, I don't feel inclined to make a case that you're scum at this moment.

See, this guy gets it.

RadicalFuzz tell em all how town I am.

[Ricochet]

Where I'm at is this: My personal read of Mac is somewhat scummy, but with JJJ and Choutas, who both know him well, believing in him, I have trouble going after him too hard.

Unless one or both of them are vouching for Mac for more unsavory reasons. I have no reason to believe that Mac, JJJ, or Choutas are scum, but I'm really behind on this game.

As Mac is the leader in the poll, would any kind soul like to lay out a quick nutshell on why? I'm seeing mention of an elaborate bussing scheme, but I'm not entirely onboard with that theory.

I've summarized it to Russ a while ago. In Mac's case, it's not bussing, it's distancing - with Mac having made enough astute and approving remarks throughout LC's conning phases and during his lynch to come out looking good afterwards. And yet he never pulled the switch on him, only paraded with the result afterwards.

Bussers could be sig, motel or JJJ, on this same spectrum of LC doubters.

As for the scheme part, same question to you as to motel. Since LC was bad and witnessed so many locals BOTD'ing him, is it so hard to imagine that he could have instructed his teammates, especially his RYM ones, to act wary of such vouching, act wary of his shenanigans and be prepared for a bussing scenario? It would work in their best interest, for cred.

[MacDougall]

I always thought distancing was just not interacting at all.

[Ricochet]

Not really. One distances from his teammate actions, thoughts, stances by opposing or doubting their genuineness. It creates distances between the two teammates.

[seaside]

to people (strawhenge and matt f i think) who were wondering about my floyd read earlier i said it was a joke, i haven't mentioned him much properly because what is there to really say? he's new and he isn't posting much. i haven't mentioned many posters tbh. i haven't interacted with many either.

Quick note: Seaside responded on the previous page that his confidence in Floyd was 'a joke, bruv'.

shit, you have even posted this yourself strawhenge and you are still pressuring me on this?

[MacDougall]

Strawhenge cum?

[seaside]

just because i can't explain it, doesn't mean it isn't well thought out and solid

You're not entirely wrong, but if you can't coherently explain what your theory is how do you expect people to look at it and form their own conclusions? We're not going to take your word that this theory you can't properly explain solves everything and we should blindly follow you.

i've left a few bread crumbs tbh

[seaside]

Choutas why are you so sure that mac and jjj are town?

what you think bout diiny?

[Choutas]

Choutas why are you so sure that mac and jjj are town?

what you think bout diiny?

Diiny is neutral to me. I don't know what to think of him and the last days he's been very quiet. Could flip either way.
Mac plays like Mac very similar to what he usually does. JJJ went autistic in this game and when he does it he's usually townie.
My only concern was town losing so resoundingly. All of our reads have been shit thus far. Moreover JJJ is inexplicably still alive. Dunno to whom or what should I attribute that.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think Diiny is plenty suspicious. I just don't understand why it has to be him and/or me based on the Ricochet wagon. I've asked you what you mean by that, and you've just given me attitude and planted a vote on my face.

[seaside]

you know the rules of this game

[JaggedJimmyJay]

you know the rules of this game

I didn't even know until now that the rules of this game are relevant to what you're saying. I don't have X-ray vision into your head.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm going to be less active starting now (by my standards at least). I know I said that at the beginning of the game, but this time it has to be true because I'm going back to work. My shifts end right around the time the day phases end I believe, so that might pose an issue moving forward. I guess I'll see.

I think Mac is a bad lynch.

I know I'm a bad lynch. That'd actually be the biggest wasted opportunity ever, and not just because I'm town.

I think Black Rock is a good lynch.

Good luck with your Mafia.

[seaside]

you know the rules of this game

I didn't even know until now that the rules of this game are relevant to what you're saying. I don't have X-ray vision into your head.

you are better than this, don't tell me that you have been making this multi paragraph responses to people and you havent considered something so obvious.
was it you who i saw earlier who said something about 'the evidence we have in this thread' like that is all we should be going off here? we gotta have some trust, if you don't think i'm scum, why not try a little trust?

[Choutas]

you know the rules of this game

I didn't even know until now that the rules of this game are relevant to what you're saying. I don't have X-ray vision into your head.

infodumping I presume.
Just our luck we're being bound by the mofodumping rule.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

you know the rules of this game

I didn't even know until now that the rules of this game are relevant to what you're saying. I don't have X-ray vision into your head.

you are better than this, don't tell me that you have been making this multi paragraph responses to people and you havent considered something so obvious.
was it you who i saw earlier who said something about 'the evidence we have in this thread' like that is all we should be going off here? we gotta have some trust, if you don't think i'm scum, why not try a little trust?

I'm literally looking at the information available to me in the OP to get any clue what you're talking about and coming up empty. I'd like to trust you, but you're also voting for me and trying to kill me, so what do you expect?

I also don't know if I'd be trusting infallible data, or some kind of educated hunch.

[seaside]

like if you think diiny is suspicious and you think i'm wrong about you. share some rather than just dismissing what i'm saying in such a way.
admittedly you probably have hit my scumdar more than diiny lately because you are posting more and most people dont seem interested in him.
i'm not syaing both of you are scum, i think one of you two are, i'm far from 100% on which it is.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Seaside, would you just follow me if our positions were reversed right now? You never trust anyone.

[seaside]

Seaside, would you just follow me if our positions were reversed right now? You never trust anyone.

i'd be more willing if you weren't such a crafty player that i have such trouble reading
but for example. i'd follow a few users in this thread right now if they presented me with something.
i'm not sure where you get that i don't trust anyone from either.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If I were to vote for Diiny, would I be relying on you having a correct read on Diiny? As in you've come to a conclusion based on your assessment of his game and are now pushing that on me? Or would I be relying on substantive evidence?

[seaside]

It is based on conclusions (that I will admit aren't bullet proof) that I have worked out. Not based on how diiny has played the game. It's the best that i've been able to work out this game and i find it frustrating that i have no real way to present it properly.

[Ricochet]

Where I'm at is this: My personal read of Mac is somewhat scummy, but with JJJ and Choutas, who both know him well, believing in him, I have trouble going after him too hard. And before Day 4 I would've been confident enough he was civ to defend him outright.
My only concern was town losing so resoundingly. All of our reads have been shit thus far. Moreover JJJ is inexplicably still alive. Dunno to whom or what should I attribute that.

Mac plays like Mac very similar to what he usually does. JJJ went autistic in this game and when he does it he's usually townie.

Hmm, I wonder what the outcome was the last time a player was thought to be playing the way he usually does...

...mmmeeetaaa iiiis bulllsshhhhiit...the wind whispered

Also, Choutas, why do you think JJJ would have been killed by now?

[Ricochet]

Oops, quote fail there. I initially edited out Choutas' post down to the line about Mac, then wanted to add back the quote on JJJ being alive and accidentally put it in Russ' space.

EBWOP

Where I'm at is this: My personal read of Mac is somewhat scummy, but with JJJ and Choutas, who both know him well, believing in him, I have trouble going after him too hard. And before Day 4 I would've been confident enough he was civ to defend him outright.

Mac plays like Mac very similar to what he usually does. JJJ went autistic in this game and when he does it he's usually townie.
My only concern was town losing so resoundingly. All of our reads have been shit thus far. Moreover JJJ is inexplicably still alive. Dunno to whom or what should I attribute that.

Hmm, I wonder what the outcome was the last time a player was thought to be playing the way he usually does...

...mmmeeetaaa iiiis bulllsshhhhiit...the wind whispered

Also, Choutas, why do you think JJJ would have been killed by now?

[MacDougall]

I agree with Jimmy.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I imagine the mafia team views Mac as easily lynchable. Might have even drugged him.

I think some people are suspicious of him because of his [deliberately] volatile behavior, and are morphing the evidence to convince themselves it's more than a gut read.

I think other people are probably capitalizing on his style. Maybe Epi, since he seems to be interested in a contest of testicle mass as much as pursuing an actual case.

[Epignosis]

Bussing strategies here are as common as unnecessarily used adverbs. And they have some things in common.

Epi used this adverb hypocritically. Confirmed scum. :P

Joke.



























Russtifinko's head.

[Ricochet]

I imagine the mafia team views Mac as easily lynchable. Might have even drugged him.

I think some people are suspicious of him because of his [deliberately] volatile behavior, and are morphing the evidence to convince themselves it's more than a gut read.

I think other people are probably capitalizing on his style. Maybe Epi, since he seems to be interested in a contest of testicle mass as much as pursuing an actual case.

I find it it'd be real mean of the mafia to drug their own.

Anyway, I disagree completely. I think Mafia have the drug and the numbers to save MacDougall, if the civs won't push forward. A two-vote lead is currently nothing for them to get uncomfortable at this point and decide to leave Mac hanging and take other routes.

For me his volatile behaviour only adds to the charges. If I were mafia and get accused of being SK based on some occurences or events, I'd probably lose control a bit myself over the idea that I might get clipped, as baddie, for another baddie pattern that isn't mine or my team's.

I don't have gut on him, I have a case and it says MacDougall is MacBaddie.

Hear my voice, move my hair.

[MacDougall]

No your case wouldn't hold up in a court of law. Maybe some kangaroo forums mafia court though.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I dunno. I've been wrong before.

[Ricochet]

No your case wouldn't hold up in a court of law. Maybe some kangaroo forums mafia court though.

Yes it does.

Over to you.

[Choutas]

Oops, quote fail there. I initially edited out Choutas' post down to the line about Mac, then wanted to add back the quote on JJJ being alive and accidentally put it in Russ' space.

EBWOP

Where I'm at is this: My personal read of Mac is somewhat scummy, but with JJJ and Choutas, who both know him well, believing in him, I have trouble going after him too hard. And before Day 4 I would've been confident enough he was civ to defend him outright.

Mac plays like Mac very similar to what he usually does. JJJ went autistic in this game and when he does it he's usually townie.
My only concern was town losing so resoundingly. All of our reads have been shit thus far. Moreover JJJ is inexplicably still alive. Dunno to whom or what should I attribute that.

Hmm, I wonder what the outcome was the last time a player was thought to be playing the way he usually does...

...mmmeeetaaa iiiis bulllsshhhhiit...the wind whispered

Also, Choutas, why do you think JJJ would have been killed by now?

Cause he usually gets killed on the first five days as a townie on rym. Anti-town has shown smarts by taking out a vocal townie(zebra) and a confirmed townie(Golden). JJJ is a threat. They left him be five nights. Presuming he's town we have two mafia kills and what four rogue kills? Six kills and he isn't worth it? is FZ a better nightkill over supertown Jimmy? Which brings us to another theory. They did try to bump him off and he survived somehow. Right now in my head there are 3 scenarios about JJJ.
1) He's anti-town(random role) or bulletproof rogue/mafia. I'd still think they must have tried to shot him, even if he was rogue or mafia the other faction deffo wanted him dead.
2) He's town. He was protected/bulletproof/someone roleblocked sb, the most likely scenario if you combine it with the amount of town input he's provided.
3) The baddies forgot him. The least likely scenario. Another less likely scenario is that he doesn't fit anywhere in the equation and the failed kills were on another victim Me or Mac for example.

[Marmot]

I dunno. I've been wrong before.

I find your insistence that MacDougall is town more disturbing than the votes against him.

MacDougall even said sticking to Day 2 reads is foolish (implying you are foolish), but does not have any qualm with your townread of him. This scenario feels uncomfortable to me. Tell me why we shouldn't lynch you and/or MacDougall.

[Choutas]

I dunno. I've been wrong before.

I find your insistence that MacDougall is town more disturbing than the votes against him.

MacDougall even said sticking to Day 2 reads is foolish (implying you are foolish), but does not have any qualm with your townread of him. This scenario feels uncomfortable to me. Tell me why we shouldn't lynch you and/or MacDougall.

Why shouldn't we lynch you? Do you like your knots secure or extra-secure?

[Marmot]

I don't want to be lynched.