Mafia Championship Scrimmage [END]

[Inawordyes]

Spoiler: show

Okay, sorry! Sorry sorry sorry. This is game relevant, but I'll put it in OT anyways; I was super tired and fell asleep Saturday night while I was catching up, hence why I just randomly disappeared abruptly, and I fully intended to be here yesterday, but some things came up unexpectedly unexpectedly after I started catching up in the morning, and I ended up being tied up all day and didn't get a chance to check the site until after EoD. But I'm here now, so hopefully I'll be fine.

I caught up with the rest of the day last night post-EoD but I'm not gonna go back and relook over then at the moment because I went to bed with a headache and woke up with a bloody nose, so I'm just not feeling like it haha, so again, if anybody has any specific points or quotes they want my thoughts on, quote 'em forward!

Current thoughts I have from memory: I don't like Frog's insistence on knowing my meta. Haha yes, this is another meta comment, but seriously, I don't step up as a leader when I'm a goodie on any other site other than MU because MU is so different than sites that I usually play on. Case on point is this MM game that I played that just finished this week:

http://mafiamaniac.net/index.php?showtopic=4037

I don't have that big of a thread presence except where it's necessary to avoid being wrongfully suspected and lunched for it, I.e. in any MU game. So I feel like, while I understand why he mentioned it because that's the only experience he has with me, it's unfair to hold me to my MU meta when I only use that meta on MU because MU is vastly sifferent than what we play here or at MM. And repeating it so often led to other people getting into the mindset that that's how I play, and without being anle to be here to correct him, I'm just kinda invariably damaged goods coming into D2 haha, because that's the perception of me now.

I understand, along those lines, why the IAWY wagon formed, but I do not like how it formed, and how it stayed. A CFD three hours before EoD on an MIA player just seems like going for low-hanging fruit, which is the strategy that Frog advocated for and it got him lynched, in the biggest of ironies haha. So that's pretty dumb haha.

Has anyone noticed that in MP's ISO reads, he's just reading posts null after null after null? I don't understand how he's getting town and Mafia leans when he's not reading all the posts he quoting either way. I understand why he'd scumread me for cultural differences - which he expressed that he knew from pregame stuff is my personality anyways - but it seems like he's being a little heavy-handed in keeping the read. I do think he's on the right side of the numbers, but if he keeps on me like that, he's gonna drop spots fast.

I didn't like how Soneji entered the thread guns-blazing with an aggressive attitude, I also didn't like how he didn't address my RVS vote at all but used it offhand as a reason to scum read me. I would lean him baddie for that.

I don't understand the backlash on Zebra and the wagon that formed on him for self-voting, that was kinda weird, and then IIRC (and correct me if I'm wrong, I'm going from memory) all his voters went from him, to MP, to me.

That's what I got at the moment, quote forward relevant issues or points that were directed at me since I know where we're quite a few of them, and I'll do my best to answer them.

Hey there, IAWY! A few questions for you:

Whom would you have voted for? You failed to mention this.

If you disagree with any of the overall reads on any of my ISOs, or any of the post reads, then why don't you show me which ones and why? Further, I should note that I started ISOs with the lowest posters first, then ascending, and that these players generally had the least content by far. What you're doing instead here is making a sweeping generalization of my methods in an attempt to discredit me, which rings disingenuous. If you're town, please instead show me what portions of my ISOs you disagree with and why, because I more than welcome the input.

Why? Is this just a NO U (OMGUS)? Why would Soneji's aggressive entrance be scum-indicative; what's the motive?

Further, would you be willing to provide a reads list?

Heyo MP!

I probably would've voted for Frog, honestly. I knew the drunkenness was coming reading through the thread, because he did the same thing in the MU Mateix12 game we just played and I also lynched him there, so it didn't really phase me. However, before all that I did not like that at every turn he claimed he wouldn't vote me but then he'd continually make reference to how I wasn't playing to my MU town meta, which out a target on my back unnecessarily because he mentioned it so much, and then at EoD he voted for me anyways, though I understand why being that it was for self-preservation.

I never said I disagreed, I found it curious that for so many null posts, you were still leaning people town or Mafia without much in your posts to say as to why. I went over this in another post later on from this, which I'm sure by now you'll already have seen, so take it up with me if you're dissatisfied with it.

I went over this a bit too, I got a gut reaction to it that there was something off and I didn't like it. That's nothing to write home about, so I'm not pushing for Sloonei ATM because I know that a gut read is not enough to say he's Mafia. But I am keeping an eye on him because I haven't shaken the feeling.

[Tangrowth]

I'm surprised by so many of my town-reads town-reading Golden. I was suspecting him ever since he voted Frog yesterday, but his conversation with zebra today just pinged me so much. Especially the "I will vote for you even though I think you're town" which is only excusable at EOD for self-preservation. I was almost getting vibes like: "You suspect me for the wrong reasons so I'm proving you wrong!" from Golden's posts. As in when you're scum and someone scum-reads you for something you actually do even as town.

I also feel like MetalMarsh and Golden are trying to distance themselves and using Sloonei as a scapegoat. As in, they both think the other is bussing Sloonei and if Sloonei flips town, then they can both say, "Oh I was scum-reading you because of Sloonei but he turned out to be a townie."

His Frog vote is a doubt in my mind. The Golden side of that conversation is classic Golden, but I can see why someone unfamiliar with him would find it pingworthy. It's oozing with balls and truth that mafia Golden would probably not post; he'd be more sneaky.

That said, I'm still putting him as a moderate read, not close to 100% or anything like that. So I'm listening.

Do you have other reasons to scum read MM (or Golden for that matter)?

[Tangrowth]

I also feel like most of the people on the Frog wagon (or those retroactively calling him scummy this phase) misrepresented him, intentionally or otherwise. This is in terms of his "inactive hunting" push. Or maybe I'm just sore you guys CFD'd one of the most active and experienced players (and one of my biggest town reads) to save two fairly inactive players (both in my scum reads).

There could be mafia on the Frog wagon, but I don't know; I felt like Frog's behavior was sketchy as well. He seemed intent to actually hunt, but then kept avoiding observations he made about you and Sloonei in order to continuously push his low poster plan, and his thoughts on me were worded strongly but all over the place (ironically, given that's what he said about my play).

[Tangrowth]

Golden, I'm not sure I see how Sloonmatt is your strongest suspicion. I don't really find MM's initial argument against him very convincing, even after the revision (prompted but not intented by you lol). Can you sum up your suspicion or something?

My primary reason for suspecting sloonei was that he spent the whole day (maybe not the whole day, but it is my impression of him) calling Frog his top suspect and then jumped away from him with about 7 minutes to go, because 'if Frog is town, he is too valuable'.

To me, this jump made no sense, and felt informed and like a civ cred grab. It's unfortunate that sloonei was not able to come back to explain himself.

This is the best point against Sloonei, IMO.

I'm still going to ISO him... at some point here.

[Golden]

I'm surprised by so many of my town-reads town-reading Golden. I was suspecting him ever since he voted Frog yesterday, but his conversation with zebra today just pinged me so much. Especially the "I will vote for you even though I think you're town" which is only excusable at EOD for self-preservation. I was almost getting vibes like: "You suspect me for the wrong reasons so I'm proving you wrong!" from Golden's posts. As in when you're scum and someone scum-reads you for something you actually do even as town.

I also feel like MetalMarsh and Golden are trying to distance themselves and using Sloonei as a scapegoat. As in, they both think the other is bussing Sloonei and if Sloonei flips town, then they can both say, "Oh I was scum-reading you because of Sloonei but he turned out to be a townie."

Zebra does suspect me for the wrong reasons.

She is also, quite separately, wrong about my alignment. I am not mafia.

Both of those things are true at once. You don't know me well enough to know how I'd react when someone suspects me for the wrong reasons.

Sloonei turning town would make no impact on my marmot read. Much like silverwolf's claim I'd over-defend a teammate is way off base, so your assertion that I'd make such an ovbvious 'clearing' move for a teammate is way off base.

I won mafia of the year here for a reason. The reason is I don't play gambits when I'm mafia. None. No silly clearing moves, no silly planned bussing. I encourage my teammates against them at every chance. Gambits are fun, but they expose you. I play the game as if I am alone and have no friends, just as I would if I were town. There are posts confirming this is my perspective on playing in mafia in our lounge where people talk about mafia philosophy.

When you do play against me as mafia (which is not this game) you won't catch me with ideas like that.

[Inawordyes]

Spoiler: show

Okay, sorry! Sorry sorry sorry. This is game relevant, but I'll put it in OT anyways; I was super tired and fell asleep Saturday night while I was catching up, hence why I just randomly disappeared abruptly, and I fully intended to be here yesterday, but some things came up unexpectedly unexpectedly after I started catching up in the morning, and I ended up being tied up all day and didn't get a chance to check the site until after EoD. But I'm here now, so hopefully I'll be fine.

I caught up with the rest of the day last night post-EoD but I'm not gonna go back and relook over then at the moment because I went to bed with a headache and woke up with a bloody nose, so I'm just not feeling like it haha, so again, if anybody has any specific points or quotes they want my thoughts on, quote 'em forward!

Current thoughts I have from memory: I don't like Frog's insistence on knowing my meta. Haha yes, this is another meta comment, but seriously, I don't step up as a leader when I'm a goodie on any other site other than MU because MU is so different than sites that I usually play on. Case on point is this MM game that I played that just finished this week:

http://mafiamaniac.net/index.php?showtopic=4037

I don't have that big of a thread presence except where it's necessary to avoid being wrongfully suspected and lunched for it, I.e. in any MU game. So I feel like, while I understand why he mentioned it because that's the only experience he has with me, it's unfair to hold me to my MU meta when I only use that meta on MU because MU is vastly sifferent than what we play here or at MM. And repeating it so often led to other people getting into the mindset that that's how I play, and without being anle to be here to correct him, I'm just kinda invariably damaged goods coming into D2 haha, because that's the perception of me now.

I understand, along those lines, why the IAWY wagon formed, but I do not like how it formed, and how it stayed. A CFD three hours before EoD on an MIA player just seems like going for low-hanging fruit, which is the strategy that Frog advocated for and it got him lynched, in the biggest of ironies haha. So that's pretty dumb haha.

Has anyone noticed that in MP's ISO reads, he's just reading posts null after null after null? I don't understand how he's getting town and Mafia leans when he's not reading all the posts he quoting either way. I understand why he'd scumread me for cultural differences - which he expressed that he knew from pregame stuff is my personality anyways - but it seems like he's being a little heavy-handed in keeping the read. I do think he's on the right side of the numbers, but if he keeps on me like that, he's gonna drop spots fast.

I didn't like how Soneji entered the thread guns-blazing with an aggressive attitude, I also didn't like how he didn't address my RVS vote at all but used it offhand as a reason to scum read me. I would lean him baddie for that.

I don't understand the backlash on Zebra and the wagon that formed on him for self-voting, that was kinda weird, and then IIRC (and correct me if I'm wrong, I'm going from memory) all his voters went from him, to MP, to me.

That's what I got at the moment, quote forward relevant issues or points that were directed at me since I know where we're quite a few of them, and I'll do my best to answer them.

Hey there, IAWY! A few questions for you:

Whom would you have voted for? You failed to mention this.

If you disagree with any of the overall reads on any of my ISOs, or any of the post reads, then why don't you show me which ones and why? Further, I should note that I started ISOs with the lowest posters first, then ascending, and that these players generally had the least content by far. What you're doing instead here is making a sweeping generalization of my methods in an attempt to discredit me, which rings disingenuous. If you're town, please instead show me what portions of my ISOs you disagree with and why, because I more than welcome the input.

Why? Is this just a NO U (OMGUS)? Why would Soneji's aggressive entrance be scum-indicative; what's the motive?

Further, would you be willing to provide a reads list?

Looking over this again, I have one additional question, IAWY:

Seems you've also said I didn't read all of the posts I ISOed, per the highlighted content. How would you come to that conclusion? I read every post. What gave you the impression that I didn't?

Ooh, sorry, that's my fault. I missed the intent there - I meant that you were reading the players either particular way, not posts themselves I was wondering more so why you were saying null, null, null, and then ending up with a Mafia lean when all the nulls weren't conducive to justifiably providing one.

Calling me out for supposed hypocrisy in questioning your ISO's when I hadn't posted much for reasons I already explained more than once through both days up to this point, so you know better is an slippery slope to be walking, because saying I have no room to talk because you did something that I didn't doesn't make you right and it doesn't make me wrong,

[Tangrowth]

What do you think of the table, Golden? Seems Zexy is our biggest disagreement, but I have been flip-flopping on him all game, and can't get a solid feel for him at all. He's maybe even my least confident read (note to self: ISO him and Sloonei with highest priority).

[Golden]

MetalMarsh89, you scum-read Golden, correct? And Golden, you scum-read MM, right?

Yes, but mildly. There are a few different options I prefer.

[Marco]

The thing with this is that I'm having trouble seeing a reason why sig would be so eager to have a counterwagon form on me and be defensive of IAWY, seemingly only because he read his opening post as townish. I could understand it if it was a TS regular hes familiar with that he doesn't want to see gone so early but someone hes unfamiliar with that isn't really contributing? From my perspective, he saw someone who people were discussing getting replaced come in late with a long post he probably doesn't think people will read too closely or have time to analyze properly, with a vote contrary to the only two wagons at the time that he could spin as "avoiding the major wagons".

I don't think he was very eager to lynch you. He backed off pretty quickly when I told him your activity wasn't scummy according to your meta. More importantly, for Sig to want to CFD on you as scum, it would make sense only if one of the leading wagons was his teammate. The only options for that were IAWY and MetalMarsh. Sig had his vote on MM till the end, so doubtful that he was trying to save MM. And if he was trying to save IAWY, he should've shifted his vote to Frog instead of letting it become RNG between Frog and IAWY.

I was actually suspicious of Sig until EOD yesterday.

I do think IAWY's flip will be the most telling and I support it as the finalized lynch. Getting more out of sig beforehand can't hurt though.

Maybe you should've listened to me and put your vote in the IAWY or MM wagon yesterday instead of Frog.

[Tangrowth]

Spoiler: show

Okay, sorry! Sorry sorry sorry. This is game relevant, but I'll put it in OT anyways; I was super tired and fell asleep Saturday night while I was catching up, hence why I just randomly disappeared abruptly, and I fully intended to be here yesterday, but some things came up unexpectedly unexpectedly after I started catching up in the morning, and I ended up being tied up all day and didn't get a chance to check the site until after EoD. But I'm here now, so hopefully I'll be fine.

I caught up with the rest of the day last night post-EoD but I'm not gonna go back and relook over then at the moment because I went to bed with a headache and woke up with a bloody nose, so I'm just not feeling like it haha, so again, if anybody has any specific points or quotes they want my thoughts on, quote 'em forward!

Current thoughts I have from memory: I don't like Frog's insistence on knowing my meta. Haha yes, this is another meta comment, but seriously, I don't step up as a leader when I'm a goodie on any other site other than MU because MU is so different than sites that I usually play on. Case on point is this MM game that I played that just finished this week:

http://mafiamaniac.net/index.php?showtopic=4037

I don't have that big of a thread presence except where it's necessary to avoid being wrongfully suspected and lunched for it, I.e. in any MU game. So I feel like, while I understand why he mentioned it because that's the only experience he has with me, it's unfair to hold me to my MU meta when I only use that meta on MU because MU is vastly sifferent than what we play here or at MM. And repeating it so often led to other people getting into the mindset that that's how I play, and without being anle to be here to correct him, I'm just kinda invariably damaged goods coming into D2 haha, because that's the perception of me now.

I understand, along those lines, why the IAWY wagon formed, but I do not like how it formed, and how it stayed. A CFD three hours before EoD on an MIA player just seems like going for low-hanging fruit, which is the strategy that Frog advocated for and it got him lynched, in the biggest of ironies haha. So that's pretty dumb haha.

Has anyone noticed that in MP's ISO reads, he's just reading posts null after null after null? I don't understand how he's getting town and Mafia leans when he's not reading all the posts he quoting either way. I understand why he'd scumread me for cultural differences - which he expressed that he knew from pregame stuff is my personality anyways - but it seems like he's being a little heavy-handed in keeping the read. I do think he's on the right side of the numbers, but if he keeps on me like that, he's gonna drop spots fast.

I didn't like how Soneji entered the thread guns-blazing with an aggressive attitude, I also didn't like how he didn't address my RVS vote at all but used it offhand as a reason to scum read me. I would lean him baddie for that.

I don't understand the backlash on Zebra and the wagon that formed on him for self-voting, that was kinda weird, and then IIRC (and correct me if I'm wrong, I'm going from memory) all his voters went from him, to MP, to me.

That's what I got at the moment, quote forward relevant issues or points that were directed at me since I know where we're quite a few of them, and I'll do my best to answer them.

Hey there, IAWY! A few questions for you:

Whom would you have voted for? You failed to mention this.

If you disagree with any of the overall reads on any of my ISOs, or any of the post reads, then why don't you show me which ones and why? Further, I should note that I started ISOs with the lowest posters first, then ascending, and that these players generally had the least content by far. What you're doing instead here is making a sweeping generalization of my methods in an attempt to discredit me, which rings disingenuous. If you're town, please instead show me what portions of my ISOs you disagree with and why, because I more than welcome the input.

Why? Is this just a NO U (OMGUS)? Why would Soneji's aggressive entrance be scum-indicative; what's the motive?

Further, would you be willing to provide a reads list?

Heyo MP!

I probably would've voted for Frog, honestly. I knew the drunkenness was coming reading through the thread, because he did the same thing in the MU Mateix12 game we just played and I also lynched him there, so it didn't really phase me. However, before all that I did not like that at every turn he claimed he wouldn't vote me but then he'd continually make reference to how I wasn't playing to my MU town meta, which out a target on my back unnecessarily because he mentioned it so much, and then at EoD he voted for me anyways, though I understand why being that it was for self-preservation.

I never said I disagreed, I found it curious that for so many null posts, you were still leaning people town or Mafia without much in your posts to say as to why. I went over this in another post later on from this, which I'm sure by now you'll already have seen, so take it up with me if you're dissatisfied with it.

I went over this a bit too, I got a gut reaction to it that there was something off and I didn't like it. That's nothing to write home about, so I'm not pushing for Sloonei ATM because I know that a gut read is not enough to say he's Mafia. But I am keeping an eye on him because I haven't shaken the feeling.

Thanks for the responses. I'll mull over them.

I'm next most curious what your current list of reads would look like.

[Soneji]

I also feel like most of the people on the Frog wagon (or those retroactively calling him scummy this phase) misrepresented him, intentionally or otherwise. This is in terms of his "inactive hunting" push. Or maybe I'm just sore you guys CFD'd one of the most active and experienced players (and one of my biggest town reads) to save two fairly inactive players (both in my scum reads).

He did inactive hunt though, to the point of actively discouraging discussion on basically anyone but them.

I went over this a bit too, I got a gut reaction to it that there was something off and I didn't like it. That's nothing to write home about, so I'm not pushing for Sloonei ATM because I know that a gut read is not enough to say he's Mafia. But I am keeping an eye on him because I haven't shaken the feeling.

Don't go full Ika on me please, there is nothing to work with there.

The legend grows...:



I need a Princess Mononoke mafia game in my life.

[Golden]

Who wants a table that took too much of my time to make?

Nice table, bro.

[Tangrowth]

I'm getting really tired. Ugh.

[Inawordyes]

I didn't like how Soneji entered the thread guns-blazing with an aggressive attitude, I also didn't like how he didn't address my RVS vote at all but used it offhand as a reason to scum read me. I would lean him baddie for that.

By "didn't like" are you meaning that you think its scummy? If so, in what way is it scummy? I didn't address your RVS vote exactly because that is all it was, a random vote based on nothing so nothing to address in it. When did I use your RVS as an offhand reason to scum read you though? My reasoning was based on you wording your posts in such a manner as to seem as inoffensive as possible, saying "its okay if you think I'm scum for this because you're probably going to misunderstand me" or "this theory that I have is probably wrong so don't mind me". The only time I brought up your RVS vote was in relation to speaking about Silver's reasoning for voting you, in which I offered no opinion either way on if it was valid.

It set off tonal alarm bells, I tend to play with gut reads because they're accurate, and I got pinged by your OP but I'm not entirely sure what it was you said that set me off. I could be wrong, of course, but I usually tend to be very accurate when it comes to tonal stuff and it's when I don't listen to my gut that I end up kicking myself because the people I suspected ended up being Mafia like I highly to begin with

I did ask you questions in that post, you could've addressed those. I play like that regardless, I don't shy away from what I'm saying, but I do avoid like to avoid conflict, and that's not alignment-indicative.

Another question, this time with respect to Soneji:

You said earlier that you didn't like Soneji's aggression. How can you then follow up by saying you're not entirely sure what it was he said that set you off, if it was the aggression?

That would be a prime example of subconsciously changing small details about my story to suit the narrative I'm trying to tell haha. It's not alignment-indicative, I do it all the time throughout pretty much every game I play. The more concerning portion, which I knew would cause a problem, is the first half, as I can't always quantify my reads and that's very hard to prove to someone that I'm being genuine if I'm giving them nothing, in effect. I did have a reaction to his aggression, but I don't believe, after having thought abiut it, that that's what pinged me. I can't say what did, because I honestly don't know, and that's a cop out excuse haha, but I'm just gonna take it since I don't have any motivation to dig myself into a lie there.

[Golden]

What do you think of the table, Golden? Seems Zexy is our biggest disagreement, but I have been flip-flopping on him all game, and can't get a solid feel for him at all. He's maybe even my least confident read (note to self: ISO him and Sloonei with highest priority).

My number one observation - perhaps we should be more ready to lynch people like Psi and Wilgy than we normally would be. There isn't really room to give people time in a game like this.

Wilgy's phone thing is surely true, but still convenient if scum.

Interesting that we read Zexy so differently. I think maybe he and I are simply on similar wavelengths, and so it helps me feel good about him.

[Soneji]

Maybe you should've listened to me and put your vote in the IAWY or MM wagon yesterday instead of Frog.

Was tempted to but there were too many big names moving on and off the Frog lynch for me to not see that one through. Golden and Sloonei have quite a good deal to answer for in regards to their actions during yesterdays EoD.

[Inawordyes]

An ISO of MP's ISOs This is ridiculous, but not as ridiculous as MP having over 300 posts on Day 1. For the numbers included next to each name, the first one is the number of null posts read, while the second number is the total number of posts observed.

Psittaciform - (2/2) All null post reads, but gives a slight mafia read.

Metalmarsh89 - (6/6) All null post reads, but initially gives a slight mafia read before considering to push it to moderate mafia read.

Long Con - (10/14) 10 null posts, 2 town posts, and 2 scum posts. Ultimately gives Long Con a slight mafia read.

Inawordyes - (10/17) 7 mafia posts (that vary in strength) and the rest null, which result in a moderate mafia read on Inawordyes.

DrWilgy - (15/15) All null posts that result in a null read.

Soneji - (7/9) 7 null post reads and two town post reads, which result in a slight town read.



@Inawordyes: I see what you're saying here. 3 players on this list roughly equate to null reads, but MP gives them slight or moderate mafia reads anyway. He did say in my ISO that he is ignoring null reads. I don't understand that reason for this, especially since he still gave DrWilgy a null read (or more accurately, gave no read). Anyway, if you want to look deeper into the ISOs, the links are here.

It's not even necessarily that I disagree with why he read them null, but going over all their posts and in three cases null-reading all their posts at the time of he ISO but then leaning them either way seems kinda counter-intuitive. I know that he said he was reserving straight-null for Soneji at the start because Soneji was the only NK-shower at the time, but with that many nulls you can't really expect to be able to read them either way without having some sort of slight town and scum basis.

It looks like MP is just posting to post and look like he's contributing. It's not inherently scummy because he's done a lot of other stuff that townish, but it's something to keep an eye on.

And that means what with respect to your read of me?

So do you suspect me or not? This is further suspect, since you're subtly pushing shade on me without committing to anything. I did this to zebra in Star Wars Mafia when I was scum.

I'm feeling even better about IAWY being mafia. Thoughts, others?

I have reason to keep an eye on you now after having talked it over, but I'm not going to hold this one post (or set of posts, in this case) against you because you've been pretty townie otherwise, as I said. I am not currently leaning you baddie, no.

[Marco]

Golden, I'm not sure I see how Sloonmatt is your strongest suspicion. I don't really find MM's initial argument against him very convincing, even after the revision (prompted but not intented by you lol). Can you sum up your suspicion or something?

My primary reason for suspecting sloonei was that he spent the whole day (maybe not the whole day, but it is my impression of him) calling Frog his top suspect and then jumped away from him with about 7 minutes to go, because 'if Frog is town, he is too valuable'.

To me, this jump made no sense, and felt informed and like a civ cred grab. It's unfortunate that sloonei was not able to come back to explain himself.

But suspecting someone all phase and jumping off from them for town cred seems like a completely counter-active move. That would only serve to foster more suspicion on you.

His Frog vote is a doubt in my mind. The Golden side of that conversation is classic Golden, but I can see why someone unfamiliar with him would find it pingworthy. It's oozing with balls and truth that mafia Golden would probably not post; he'd be more sneaky.

That said, I'm still putting him as a moderate read, not close to 100% or anything like that. So I'm listening.

Do you have other reasons to scum read MM (or Golden for that matter)?

I'm going to go over the Golden and zebra conversation again (even though it was quite annoying). Let me see if I can demonstrate my thoughts better.

[Marco]

I also feel like most of the people on the Frog wagon (or those retroactively calling him scummy this phase) misrepresented him, intentionally or otherwise. This is in terms of his "inactive hunting" push. Or maybe I'm just sore you guys CFD'd one of the most active and experienced players (and one of my biggest town reads) to save two fairly inactive players (both in my scum reads).

There could be mafia on the Frog wagon, but I don't know; I felt like Frog's behavior was sketchy as well. He seemed intent to actually hunt, but then kept avoiding observations he made about you and Sloonei in order to continuously push his low poster plan, and his thoughts on me were worded strongly but all over the place (ironically, given that's what he said about my play).

I feel like most people skimmed through Frog, Sloonei, and mine early interactions. He never avoided the observations he made about me and Sloonei. He scum-read me and Sloonei as a team. That we were "defending" each other. After I cleared out the misunderstanding, I became his strongest town read, and that also served to get his focus off Sloonei.

[Golden]

But suspecting someone all phase and jumping off from them for town cred seems like a completely counter-active move. That would only serve to foster more suspicion on you.

If that is true, where are all the sloonei votes? Why am I the only person coming out and expressing suspicion of it? The only others views on it have been as a result of agreeing or disagreeing with my own.

Frog was town, and no-one but me is pointing at sloonei for jumping off a town wagon at all.

What if IAWY came back bad... would make sloonei look particularly good, yeah?

The Sloonei I'm used to (like my buddy in Turf Wars) might bounce his votes around, but he'd always end up on someone he felt was scum... not just move away from someone who 'might add value'.

It just doesn't feel right to me at all.

[Inawordyes]

I've been reading IAWY as scum and sig as his potential teammate for his defense of him. MM I felt fine with at first when doing a quick ISO before the lynch last phase but hes said a few things that have pinged me, which I pointed out earlier:

Do you feel it makes sense for sig to try and get a EOD wagon on you as scum? It may makes sense if it was to save someone like IAWY, I agree, but still seems like a stretch to me. What is the reason you are voting sig over IAWY right now?

It's also not clear to me why you were voting Frog as the first person last day when you say IAWY had already pingen you? Can you elaborate what your thought process was? (I realize there will be hindsight to this, since Frog has already flipped).

I figure Soneji already replied to this, but an extra question I have, if you had scumread me from your first post, as you mentioned, then why not vote for me now when I already have a wagon formed on me? If you're that confident, then theres no reason not to put a vote down on me unless you have hesitations about being on the wagon when I get lynched and flip town. Which I don't see you, as a goodie, being worried about at all.

[Soneji]

The thing with this is that I'm having trouble seeing a reason why sig would be so eager to have a counterwagon form on me and be defensive of IAWY, seemingly only because he read his opening post as townish. I could understand it if it was a TS regular hes familiar with that he doesn't want to see gone so early but someone hes unfamiliar with that isn't really contributing? From my perspective, he saw someone who people were discussing getting replaced come in late with a long post he probably doesn't think people will read too closely or have time to analyze properly, with a vote contrary to the only two wagons at the time that he could spin as "avoiding the major wagons".

I don't think he was very eager to lynch you. He backed off pretty quickly when I told him your activity wasn't scummy according to your meta. More importantly, for Sig to want to CFD on you as scum, it would make sense only if one of the leading wagons was his teammate. The only options for that were IAWY and MetalMarsh. Sig had his vote on MM till the end, so doubtful that he was trying to save MM. And if he was trying to save IAWY, he should've shifted his vote to Frog instead of letting it become RNG between Frog and IAWY.

I was actually suspicious of Sig until EOD yesterday.

That he went quickly from "I didn't like his entrance" to "lets start a CFD on him" says to me that he was eager, at least from my perspective. When you posted what you said, he had already had no success in getting anyone to follow him and he me breathing down his neck. You offered him an easy escape route for backing off his suspicion. I don't think he could have justified a Frog switch at that stage, especially with his push on me in part for my Frog vote.

[Tangrowth]

Golden, I agree re: Wilgy and Psi candidates, but it'd be preferable if they could give us more to work with as well. I think as a thread we definitely need to open this conversation in time for d3 though, regardless of what happens d2/n2. Hosting Turf Wars was an eye opener for me with respect to the fact that, as a site in general, we let players who contribute little slide by too often for way too long into games without thoroughly examining them. Regarding what you said about Zexy, that's intriguing; it's how I feel about Dizzy at the moment. Anyway, let's talk more table tomorrow, or feel free to comment as you wish and I can get back to you if you feel we don't need to talk in real time. It's clear I still need to ISO and reevaluate some folks I don't feel I have a good grip on anyway, so that may assist.

IAWY, I'll be sure to read your other responses and consider them thoroughly, I assure you. I'm looking for a strong spark of town from you though to convince me that you shouldn't die tomorrow, so show me and all of us what you got.

Marco, sounds good, I look forward to hearing what you have to say. I don't want to be blinded by meta with respect to Golden, or anyone else for that matter (zebra, Wilgy, and others could apply too), but I am definitely feeling pretty alright with him right now.

I need to be awake in 5 hours tops as I have a very long day tomorrow, and I'll be on campus for a while attending various meetings and what not.

So, a game-relevant warning to all you folks: For the remainder of d2 I can't promise that I will really be present much, if at all really, until sometime in the evening Central time. I should be here for the last couple/few hours before EoD at a minimum though.

Night, fellow players!

[Inawordyes]

Fair enough, I was going off memory so I knew I'd get at least one thing wrong haha.

I don't know what to make of it. It could be a slip up, but I'm more inclined to just see it as a genuine mistake. Haha I don't know, I don't have a strong reaction to it, sorry.

Hi.

Heyo! Wassup?

[Marco]

I also feel like most of the people on the Frog wagon (or those retroactively calling him scummy this phase) misrepresented him, intentionally or otherwise. This is in terms of his "inactive hunting" push. Or maybe I'm just sore you guys CFD'd one of the most active and experienced players (and one of my biggest town reads) to save two fairly inactive players (both in my scum reads).

He did inactive hunt though, to the point of actively discouraging discussion on basically anyone but them.

I think you missed out on a lot of context because you basically skimmed the whole thread in less than a couple hours. Moot point now, since Frog is already dead. I'm just finding it odd that I was the only person actually understanding him when I was the one opposing him for half of Day 1.

Maybe you should've listened to me and put your vote in the IAWY or MM wagon yesterday instead of Frog.

Was tempted to but there were too many big names moving on and off the Frog lynch for me to not see that one through. Golden and Sloonei have quite a good deal to answer for in regards to their actions during yesterdays EoD.

I'll admit that even I was very curious about the Frog flip near the EOD. I could've switched to IAWY myself to save Frog, after all, but the general confusion of the rapid changing votes and self-doubt led me to stay on MM.

[Golden]

I also feel like most of the people on the Frog wagon (or those retroactively calling him scummy this phase) misrepresented him, intentionally or otherwise. This is in terms of his "inactive hunting" push. Or maybe I'm just sore you guys CFD'd one of the most active and experienced players (and one of my biggest town reads) to save two fairly inactive players (both in my scum reads).

He did inactive hunt though, to the point of actively discouraging discussion on basically anyone but them.

I think you missed out on a lot of context because you basically skimmed the whole thread in less than a couple hours. Moot point now, since Frog is already dead. I'm just finding it odd that I was the only person actually understanding him when I was the one opposing him for half of Day 1.

I disagree. I felt him very understandable, and said so, in that first half of day 1. I did not agree with his perspective, but I felt it was town.

Frog's first half of day one was great.

[Inawordyes]

Would you be able to rank your scum reads somehow?

What did you think of my Soneji ISO earlier?

I could, eventually. But I still feel I want to hear more from most of them (since they are all/most pretty quiet). It still feels unsolved to me in a way, if that makes sense. But IAWY is my prefered lynch, and my strongest suspicion.

I was so tired when I read the Soneji-ISO I don't really remember. Sorry. I do appreciate you putting in the work, and I will surely get back to it. Apart from that I've looked into his ISO on my own today to check up on things. I'm not convinced by him, he's a null I'm suspicious of. He could very well be teamed with IAWY if he is indeed scum. I don't feel his push on Sig is very good. Firstly because I feel Sig is a player that would be easy to push on (easy target, for various reasons), and two because the argument doesn't seem all that strong to me and gets a bit repetative. I don't think it makes that much sense for scum!Sig to push on Soneji of all people if Sig is scum. That being said, I don't think it's impossible for Soneji to be town doing all this either. So it's inconclusive atm.

No worries, that's understandable. I feel like we're mind melding the most this phase, so I'm with you on IAWY. It would take some real town spark from IAWY to get me to move that vote, because I have not liked his recent posts (though he seems like a nice fellow).

Not a problem, let me know what you think when you get to it. Yeah, sig is an easy mislynch (or lynch in general), so I think he's particularly difficult to read. I need to figure him out myself.

Thanks for the elaboration.

Once you read me as Mafia you stop looking at me as town, so commenting that you don't like my recent posts is meaningless except as a tool to convince others to look at me the same way, which is a scummy tactic, or possibly a cop tactic but I don't think you would've been this subtle about a redcheck on me if that was a possibility.

[Golden]

I'll admit that even I was very curious about the Frog flip near the EOD. I could've switched to IAWY myself to save Frog, after all, but the general confusion of the rapid changing votes and self-doubt led me to stay on MM.

I feel like this is also part of why I stayed on Frog in the end. I'd convinced myself that I needed to understand the enigma. I also felt (at the time) that it would give us information. Well, I feel it would have given us a lot if he flipped scum.

But in hindsight, vanilla really didn't give us info at all.

[Inawordyes]

Hey, IAWY, I have plenty of questions for you. You'll see them. Please answer them.

Also, if you want to engage in real time, that'd be great. Let me know. I want to see some reads.

I'm catching up haha, I realized I forgot to include the reads when I answered the questions, but I'm not used to doing "rainbow reads". I'll get to them eventually once I am in realtime!

[Golden]

Would you be able to rank your scum reads somehow?

What did you think of my Soneji ISO earlier?

I could, eventually. But I still feel I want to hear more from most of them (since they are all/most pretty quiet). It still feels unsolved to me in a way, if that makes sense. But IAWY is my prefered lynch, and my strongest suspicion.

I was so tired when I read the Soneji-ISO I don't really remember. Sorry. I do appreciate you putting in the work, and I will surely get back to it. Apart from that I've looked into his ISO on my own today to check up on things. I'm not convinced by him, he's a null I'm suspicious of. He could very well be teamed with IAWY if he is indeed scum. I don't feel his push on Sig is very good. Firstly because I feel Sig is a player that would be easy to push on (easy target, for various reasons), and two because the argument doesn't seem all that strong to me and gets a bit repetative. I don't think it makes that much sense for scum!Sig to push on Soneji of all people if Sig is scum. That being said, I don't think it's impossible for Soneji to be town doing all this either. So it's inconclusive atm.

No worries, that's understandable. I feel like we're mind melding the most this phase, so I'm with you on IAWY. It would take some real town spark from IAWY to get me to move that vote, because I have not liked his recent posts (though he seems like a nice fellow).

Not a problem, let me know what you think when you get to it. Yeah, sig is an easy mislynch (or lynch in general), so I think he's particularly difficult to read. I need to figure him out myself.

Thanks for the elaboration.

Once you read me as Mafia you stop looking at me as town, so commenting that you don't like my recent posts is meaningless except as a tool to convince others to look at me the same way, which is a scummy tactic, or possibly a cop tactic but I don't think you would've been this subtle about a redcheck on me if that was a possibility.

[Marco]

But suspecting someone all phase and jumping off from them for town cred seems like a completely counter-active move. That would only serve to foster more suspicion on you.

If that is true, where are all the sloonei votes? Why am I the only person coming out and expressing suspicion of it? The only others views on it have been as a result of agreeing or disagreeing with my own.

Frog was town, and no-one but me is pointing at sloonei for jumping off a town wagon at all.

Because it's not an inherently scummy move in itself. But scum would recognize it as such and not do it. At least I wouldn't. I tend to push more if I know the person is town and is getting lynched precisely for this reason. Cause people would expect scum to back off for cred.

[quote="Golden"[/quote]What if IAWY came back bad... would make sloonei look particularly good, yeah?

The Sloonei I'm used to (like my buddy in Turf Wars) might bounce his votes around, but he'd always end up on someone he felt was scum... not just move away from someone who 'might add value'.

It just doesn't feel right to me at all.[/quote]

I didn't quite understand the underlined bit.

Anyway, I'm going to stop speaking for Sloonei as I feel like I'm getting cornered (not by you or anyone, by myself) into defending him. And he was actually suspicious to me until he sort of gave up on the game.

[Inawordyes]

Here's the thing, zebra. Full seriousness.

I am town, but I'd sooner mislynch you and leave my vote on you than be lynched myself. I'm playing this game for practice for champs. I don't actually care if you go down. I don't actually WHO goes down. I'm going to do my best to try to solve the game and thats all there is to it.

I'll do what I have to do to survive in this game. If that means lynching the people who think I'm bad, even if they are town, then so be it. Means I get longer to practice.

I don't have any teammates to come to my rescue and help. If I do get lynched today, I'll call it a failed endeavour. Certainly, I'll give up, because I don't have time for this shit. I'm playing because JJJ was nice enough to give me a chance to practice, even though I really don't have time for it.

If you don't care about the game itself and just see it as practice, then you're not practicing that well because you're missing a fundamental part of the experience, which is that you have to care at least a little. Surviving to a new day means nothing if you don't care about who's surviving with you, you can't solve the game if you're disinterested in haphazardly taking down goodies in your wake.

Not everybody you think is Mafia is mafia, nor is everybody you think is Town town. If you haphazardly lynch whoever pings your radar without concern for whether they're goodies at the end of it, then you're not learning anything that will help you in the MU games, and from my own experience, I can tell you that you will be called to account for it.

That's my 2¢.

I don't know how you make that cents symbol.

Fair point.

im in my tablet, so I just hold my finger over the $ and it gives me a drop down of alternate money symbols (for some reason it wanted to autocorrect that to soupy boos haha) like the euro, pound, yen, etc. I don't know if there's an easy way to do it on a computer unless you know the Unicode code offhand.

[Golden]

I didn't quite understand the underlined bit.

Anyway, I'm going to stop speaking for Sloonei as I feel like I'm getting cornered (not by you or anyone, by myself) into defending him. And he was actually suspicious to me until he sort of gave up on the game.

He flipped from Frog to IAWY. If IAWY then flipped scum, sloonei would look better for it.

I (personally) don't think you are speaking for sloonei so much as expressing why you suspect me. I won't push you into the same boat I was pushed in yesterday. These things ARE different.

[Marco]

I also feel like most of the people on the Frog wagon (or those retroactively calling him scummy this phase) misrepresented him, intentionally or otherwise. This is in terms of his "inactive hunting" push. Or maybe I'm just sore you guys CFD'd one of the most active and experienced players (and one of my biggest town reads) to save two fairly inactive players (both in my scum reads).

He did inactive hunt though, to the point of actively discouraging discussion on basically anyone but them.

I think you missed out on a lot of context because you basically skimmed the whole thread in less than a couple hours. Moot point now, since Frog is already dead. I'm just finding it odd that I was the only person actually understanding him when I was the one opposing him for half of Day 1.

I disagree. I felt him very understandable, and said so, in that first half of day 1. I did not agree with his perspective, but I felt it was town.

Frog's first half of day one was great.

What about the second half put you off about him? Did you think the drunk bit was an act? I felt I could understand his reluctance to "hunt". It felt to me like he was losing patience in the dayphase and just wanted to see some flips before spending more time on reading people. 72 hours is quite long. Most of us are used to 24 hour phases. Especially since a large part of Day 1 is RVS.

I'll admit that even I was very curious about the Frog flip near the EOD. I could've switched to IAWY myself to save Frog, after all, but the general confusion of the rapid changing votes and self-doubt led me to stay on MM.

I feel like this is also part of why I stayed on Frog in the end. I'd convinced myself that I needed to understand the enigma. I also felt (at the time) that it would give us information. Well, I feel it would have given us a lot if he flipped scum.

But in hindsight, vanilla really didn't give us info at all.

Don't you think MM or IAWY lynches would've given us more information, regardless of what they flipped?

[Inawordyes]

Golden, I agree re: Wilgy and Psi candidates, but it'd be preferable if they could give us more to work with as well. I think as a thread we definitely need to open this conversation in time for d3 though, regardless of what happens d2/n2. Hosting Turf Wars was an eye opener for me with respect to the fact that, as a site in general, we let players who contribute little slide by too often for way too long into games without thoroughly examining them. Regarding what you said about Zexy, that's intriguing; it's how I feel about Dizzy at the moment. Anyway, let's talk more table tomorrow, or feel free to comment as you wish and I can get back to you if you feel we don't need to talk in real time. It's clear I still need to ISO and reevaluate some folks I don't feel I have a good grip on anyway, so that may assist.

IAWY, I'll be sure to read your other responses and consider them thoroughly, I assure you. I'm looking for a strong spark of town from you though to convince me that you shouldn't die tomorrow, so show me and all of us what you got.

Marco, sounds good, I look forward to hearing what you have to say. I don't want to be blinded by meta with respect to Golden, or anyone else for that matter (zebra, Wilgy, and others could apply too), but I am definitely feeling pretty alright with him right now.

I need to be awake in 5 hours tops as I have a very long day tomorrow, and I'll be on campus for a while attending various meetings and what not.

So, a game-relevant warning to all you folks: For the remainder of d2 I can't promise that I will really be present much, if at all really, until sometime in the evening Central time. I should be here for the last couple/few hours before EoD at a minimum though.

Night, fellow players!

What makes you so certain that I won't die today? Are you expecting someone else to be lunched instead of me? Unless you mean tomorrow IRL instead of tomorrow as in the next day phase.

[Marco]

I don't think he was very eager to lynch you. He backed off pretty quickly when I told him your activity wasn't scummy according to your meta. More importantly, for Sig to want to CFD on you as scum, it would make sense only if one of the leading wagons was his teammate. The only options for that were IAWY and MetalMarsh. Sig had his vote on MM till the end, so doubtful that he was trying to save MM. And if he was trying to save IAWY, he should've shifted his vote to Frog instead of letting it become RNG between Frog and IAWY.

I was actually suspicious of Sig until EOD yesterday.

That he went quickly from "I didn't like his entrance" to "lets start a CFD on him" says to me that he was eager, at least from my perspective. When you posted what you said, he had already had no success in getting anyone to follow him and he me breathing down his neck. You offered him an easy escape route for backing off his suspicion. I don't think he could have justified a Frog switch at that stage, especially with his push on me in part for my Frog vote.

But look at his motivations here.

Why would Sig try to start a CFD on you as scum if townies are getting lynched? MM and IAWY were the options. Sig had his vote on MM till the end, so he couldn't have been trying to save MM. IAWY and Frog were tied at the end, so if Sig was trying to save IAWY, he would've switched to Frog.

[Inawordyes]

Would you be able to rank your scum reads somehow?

What did you think of my Soneji ISO earlier?

I could, eventually. But I still feel I want to hear more from most of them (since they are all/most pretty quiet). It still feels unsolved to me in a way, if that makes sense. But IAWY is my prefered lynch, and my strongest suspicion.

I was so tired when I read the Soneji-ISO I don't really remember. Sorry. I do appreciate you putting in the work, and I will surely get back to it. Apart from that I've looked into his ISO on my own today to check up on things. I'm not convinced by him, he's a null I'm suspicious of. He could very well be teamed with IAWY if he is indeed scum. I don't feel his push on Sig is very good. Firstly because I feel Sig is a player that would be easy to push on (easy target, for various reasons), and two because the argument doesn't seem all that strong to me and gets a bit repetative. I don't think it makes that much sense for scum!Sig to push on Soneji of all people if Sig is scum. That being said, I don't think it's impossible for Soneji to be town doing all this either. So it's inconclusive atm.

No worries, that's understandable. I feel like we're mind melding the most this phase, so I'm with you on IAWY. It would take some real town spark from IAWY to get me to move that vote, because I have not liked his recent posts (though he seems like a nice fellow).

Not a problem, let me know what you think when you get to it. Yeah, sig is an easy mislynch (or lynch in general), so I think he's particularly difficult to read. I need to figure him out myself.

Thanks for the elaboration.

Once you read me as Mafia you stop looking at me as town, so commenting that you don't like my recent posts is meaningless except as a tool to convince others to look at me the same way, which is a scummy tactic, or possibly a cop tactic but I don't think you would've been this subtle about a redcheck on me if that was a possibility.

Hope, that was not a slip up, don't you dare read it as such.

[Golden]

I also feel like most of the people on the Frog wagon (or those retroactively calling him scummy this phase) misrepresented him, intentionally or otherwise. This is in terms of his "inactive hunting" push. Or maybe I'm just sore you guys CFD'd one of the most active and experienced players (and one of my biggest town reads) to save two fairly inactive players (both in my scum reads).

He did inactive hunt though, to the point of actively discouraging discussion on basically anyone but them.

I think you missed out on a lot of context because you basically skimmed the whole thread in less than a couple hours. Moot point now, since Frog is already dead. I'm just finding it odd that I was the only person actually understanding him when I was the one opposing him for half of Day 1.

I disagree. I felt him very understandable, and said so, in that first half of day 1. I did not agree with his perspective, but I felt it was town.

Frog's first half of day one was great.

What about the second half put you off about him? Did you think the drunk bit was an act? I felt I could understand his reluctance to "hunt". It felt to me like he was losing patience in the dayphase and just wanted to see some flips before spending more time on reading people. 72 hours is quite long. Most of us are used to 24 hour phases. Especially since a large part of Day 1 is RVS.

I'll admit that even I was very curious about the Frog flip near the EOD. I could've switched to IAWY myself to save Frog, after all, but the general confusion of the rapid changing votes and self-doubt led me to stay on MM.

I feel like this is also part of why I stayed on Frog in the end. I'd convinced myself that I needed to understand the enigma. I also felt (at the time) that it would give us information. Well, I feel it would have given us a lot if he flipped scum.

But in hindsight, vanilla really didn't give us info at all.

Don't you think MM or IAWY lynches would've given us more information, regardless of what they flipped?

1) I did feel like it was an 'act' (not the being drunk thing, but just his whole demeanour). I have expressed this before in different ways, but I'll do my best in expressing it in a new way. I felt like he was trying to dominate the town direction and push it in the direction he wanted, and to me it felt wifom (like, does he want to be town leader, or does he want us to think thats what he wants), and he pushed his particular gambits in a very dismissive way (I'm right, you're wrong) and talked about how no-one would have the balls to nk him, and I began to feel as though the whole thing was one big pile of wifom with the deliberate goal of making himself too much of an enigma to be touched. I've seen scum do things like that and run to the end too often. In fact, I came out the other side feeling like I was still right about the whole thing being an act - and maybe even why he was doing it - just wrong about the fact he was scum.

2) I find it difficult to judge how much info we'd have gotten (or get now) out of a town flip from IAWY or MM.

[Marmot]

Spoiler: show

An ISO of MP's ISOs This is ridiculous, but not as ridiculous as MP having over 300 posts on Day 1. For the numbers included next to each name, the first one is the number of null posts read, while the second number is the total number of posts observed.

Psittaciform - (2/2) All null post reads, but gives a slight mafia read.

Metalmarsh89 - (6/6) All null post reads, but initially gives a slight mafia read before considering to push it to moderate mafia read.

Long Con - (10/14) 10 null posts, 2 town posts, and 2 scum posts. Ultimately gives Long Con a slight mafia read.

Inawordyes - (10/17) 7 mafia posts (that vary in strength) and the rest null, which result in a moderate mafia read on Inawordyes.

DrWilgy - (15/15) All null posts that result in a null read.

Soneji - (7/9) 7 null post reads and two town post reads, which result in a slight town read.



@Inawordyes: I see what you're saying here. 3 players on this list roughly equate to null reads, but MP gives them slight or moderate mafia reads anyway. He did say in my ISO that he is ignoring null reads. I don't understand that reason for this, especially since he still gave DrWilgy a null read (or more accurately, gave no read). Anyway, if you want to look deeper into the ISOs, the links are here.

Yes, I was trying to ignore null reads and make an actual determination at the end of every post, but I was clearly mentally exhausted by the time I got to Wilgy, and considering all 15 of his posts I had no idea what to do with alignment-wise, I gave up.

I'm afraid though I fail to see what the point is. Do you disagree with any of my ISOs or reads; if so, what did I interpret differently than you? I want feedback.

IAWY asked about your reads and why you read everything as null, but still came up with mafia reads. This was just my research on the topic. I discovered you were ignoring null reads, which is why IAWY noticed this trend.

I don't disagree with this tactic from you. This is just an observation. But I do want to know why you chose to ignore null when giving your stamp of approval.

Furthermore, I find it suspicious that IAWY throws subtle heat at me (note that he doesn't call me scum for my ISOs or anything like that) for contributing content to the game, when he's barely done that himself.

As to why many of my reads were null:

1) I included every post that every player made in nearly every ISO, and considering it was still before EoD d1, yeah, there was a lot of non-alignment-indicative content.
2) We didn't even have a single result/flip so it's difficult to discern interactions.
3) I didn't want to force alignment indicative content out of thin air, and I only wanted to call something town or mafia lean with respect to a post if I really felt I could reason through a convincing argument one way or the other.

So enlighten me, MM, what was IAWY's point exactly?

You should ask him, not me.

Soneji, I'm totally not feeling your sig vote. What is your read on IAWY and MM? Which one of them if any do you think Sig could be teamed with?

I've been reading IAWY as scum and sig as his potential teammate for his defense of him. MM I felt fine with at first when doing a quick ISO before the lynch last phase but hes said a few things that have pinged me, which I pointed out earlier:

Spoiler: show

I'll post my scum games:
http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/thr ... Mafia-15er

... my home site's admins have literally been either permabanned and/or deleted my scum games as troll. Gae as fuck. I quit the site (requested ban) as soon as I was recognized the MVP of the site 3 years running for 20+ games.

I've never been scum.

I don't think I've ever seen a scummy marmot. Maybe once, on RYM a while ago.

I was mafia once on RYM.

But in that game (hosted by zebra), everyone was mafia, so that one doesn't count. :P

@MetalMarsh89, you may have missed this.

@MetalMarsh, how highly would you rate your own scum-game? And can you describe one or two of your best scum performances, preferably with links to them?

My scum game is decent I think, or at least was because I've been drawing a lot of civilian/Indy roles lately. I went through a stretch here where I won several games as scum though, and I'll link you a few.


Death Note - We mafia tore the civilians apart in this game, for the most part. But there was a caveat: I was an unlynchable and unnightkillable scum who did not need to be dead for the civilians to win.

Pikmin - This would be my most recent game as scum. I had a strong start to the game, but due to the game falling around Christmas time, my participation dropped, and I was eventually lynched. Overall, I played a relatively good game, and my lynch was not detrimental to our cause, and we won anyway.

Recruitment IV - This was a recruitment game, so it had its own special style to make if different than a normal mafia game. But similar to Death Note, I had an unkillable, unlynchable role again. :P I have a tendency to draw those.

Well by golly, you all better at least lynch Sloonei before you lynch me.

Any particular reason the order matters to you, since you appear to not care that your lynch will follow in this scenario? Considering you think him mafia, would you not say your push on him would then warrant some towncred if he flips the way you think he will?

My point at that time was I was here and participating, and Sloonei wasn't. A couple of the votes for me were made because I wasn't around for a good portion of Day 1, but promised to be around Sunday, and they were there to hold me to it.

As for the other posts, do you know why they pinged you?

Golden, if you're mafia and you said this, then I'm going to kick your ass after the game is over.

Slightly not game related: I thought the same thing. But then, one of my biggest mafia pet peeves is, there's nothing that should be more "ok" to say as town then as scum. That defeats the purpose of the game. It's AtE as either alignment, and if it is ok to do as town it should be ok to do as scum. Sometimes people excuse AtE coming from town, cause they really were town, so then it's ok. But if they turn out to be scum, then it's seen as "evil" or something.

Personally I don't care about Golden and his practicing agenda, and it won't factor in to any of my decisions in the game. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I love this guy! Can we keep him?

Here's the thing, zebra. Full seriousness.

I am town, but I'd sooner mislynch you and leave my vote on you than be lynched myself. I'm playing this game for practice for champs. I don't actually care if you go down. I don't actually WHO goes down. I'm going to do my best to try to solve the game and thats all there is to it.

I'll do what I have to do to survive in this game. If that means lynching the people who think I'm bad, even if they are town, then so be it. Means I get longer to practice.

I don't have any teammates to come to my rescue and help. If I do get lynched today, I'll call it a failed endeavour. Certainly, I'll give up, because I don't have time for this shit. I'm playing because JJJ was nice enough to give me a chance to practice, even though I really don't have time for it.

If you don't care about the game itself and just see it as practice, then you're not practicing that well because you're missing a fundamental part of the experience, which is that you have to care at least a little. Surviving to a new day means nothing if you don't care about who's surviving with you, you can't solve the game if you're disinterested in haphazardly taking down goodies in your wake.

Not everybody you think is Mafia is mafia, nor is everybody you think is Town town. If you haphazardly lynch whoever pings your radar without concern for whether they're goodies at the end of it, then you're not learning anything that will help you in the MU games, and from my own experience, I can tell you that you will be called to account for it.

That's my 2¢.

Perhaps it's an excuse to practice being mafia for a whole game.

But of course, the same could be said for a civ Golden, so I'll just leave this thought alone.

MetalMarsh89, you scum-read Golden, correct? And Golden, you scum-read MM, right?

Correct. I have a light scum-read on Golden.

I don't have anything to say to your suggestion that we are distancing and mafia teammates. It's not the first time I've heard it today, nor do I expect it to be the last.



Almost caught up. One more page.

[Golden]

Would you be able to rank your scum reads somehow?

What did you think of my Soneji ISO earlier?

I could, eventually. But I still feel I want to hear more from most of them (since they are all/most pretty quiet). It still feels unsolved to me in a way, if that makes sense. But IAWY is my prefered lynch, and my strongest suspicion.

I was so tired when I read the Soneji-ISO I don't really remember. Sorry. I do appreciate you putting in the work, and I will surely get back to it. Apart from that I've looked into his ISO on my own today to check up on things. I'm not convinced by him, he's a null I'm suspicious of. He could very well be teamed with IAWY if he is indeed scum. I don't feel his push on Sig is very good. Firstly because I feel Sig is a player that would be easy to push on (easy target, for various reasons), and two because the argument doesn't seem all that strong to me and gets a bit repetative. I don't think it makes that much sense for scum!Sig to push on Soneji of all people if Sig is scum. That being said, I don't think it's impossible for Soneji to be town doing all this either. So it's inconclusive atm.

No worries, that's understandable. I feel like we're mind melding the most this phase, so I'm with you on IAWY. It would take some real town spark from IAWY to get me to move that vote, because I have not liked his recent posts (though he seems like a nice fellow).

Not a problem, let me know what you think when you get to it. Yeah, sig is an easy mislynch (or lynch in general), so I think he's particularly difficult to read. I need to figure him out myself.

Thanks for the elaboration.

Once you read me as Mafia you stop looking at me as town, so commenting that you don't like my recent posts is meaningless except as a tool to convince others to look at me the same way, which is a scummy tactic, or possibly a cop tactic but I don't think you would've been this subtle about a redcheck on me if that was a possibility.

Hope, that was not a slip up, don't you dare read it as such.

The whole last part of the sentence just baffles me completely.

[Inawordyes]

Okay, back to realtime.

Lame excuse, but reading through the thread it kinda feels like I'm an observer more than a player because I was so removed from most of yesterday's events that I don't have much to say in anything really. But let's see if I can get a reads list:

Town:
Zebra
Dizzy
Marco
Zexy

Town lean:
MP (because he's doing some shady stuff but otherwise seems pretty townie)

Null (aka I don't have much of a defined read on them in either direction for various reasons):
Wilgy
Golden
Ika
MM
Psi
sig
Sloonei

Slight Mafia:
Soneji (gut read)

Mafia:
N/A
----
I need more info on the nulls, I shouldn't have so many but that's a consequence of being missing for most of the game up to this point and not being able to meaningfully interact with people.

[Inawordyes]

Would you be able to rank your scum reads somehow?

What did you think of my Soneji ISO earlier?

I could, eventually. But I still feel I want to hear more from most of them (since they are all/most pretty quiet). It still feels unsolved to me in a way, if that makes sense. But IAWY is my prefered lynch, and my strongest suspicion.

I was so tired when I read the Soneji-ISO I don't really remember. Sorry. I do appreciate you putting in the work, and I will surely get back to it. Apart from that I've looked into his ISO on my own today to check up on things. I'm not convinced by him, he's a null I'm suspicious of. He could very well be teamed with IAWY if he is indeed scum. I don't feel his push on Sig is very good. Firstly because I feel Sig is a player that would be easy to push on (easy target, for various reasons), and two because the argument doesn't seem all that strong to me and gets a bit repetative. I don't think it makes that much sense for scum!Sig to push on Soneji of all people if Sig is scum. That being said, I don't think it's impossible for Soneji to be town doing all this either. So it's inconclusive atm.

No worries, that's understandable. I feel like we're mind melding the most this phase, so I'm with you on IAWY. It would take some real town spark from IAWY to get me to move that vote, because I have not liked his recent posts (though he seems like a nice fellow).

Not a problem, let me know what you think when you get to it. Yeah, sig is an easy mislynch (or lynch in general), so I think he's particularly difficult to read. I need to figure him out myself.

Thanks for the elaboration.

Once you read me as Mafia you stop looking at me as town, so commenting that you don't like my recent posts is meaningless except as a tool to convince others to look at me the same way, which is a scummy tactic, or possibly a cop tactic but I don't think you would've been this subtle about a redcheck on me if that was a possibility.

Hope, that was not a slip up, don't you dare read it as such.

The whole last part of the sentence just baffles me completely.

Eh, just covering my bases with a bit of tinfoil as I could see him coming out with a fakepeek to get more support for my lynch. I know how stupid that would be, and I don't know MP's meta since I've never played with him to even know if that's something he would do, but that's the point of tinfoil conspiracies!

[Marmot]

Your read of MovingPictures07 is... polarizing.

Why does he fall as a town read despite shady stuff?

[Marco]

1) I did feel like it was an 'act' (not the being drunk thing, but just his whole demeanour). I have expressed this before in different ways, but I'll do my best in expressing it in a new way. I felt like he was trying to dominate the town direction and push it in the direction he wanted, and to me it felt wifom (like, does he want to be town leader, or does he want us to think thats what he wants), and he pushed his particular gambits in a very dismissive way (I'm right, you're wrong) and talked about how no-one would have the balls to nk him, and I began to feel as though the whole thing was one big pile of wifom with the deliberate goal of making himself too much of an enigma to be touched. I've seen scum do things like that and run to the end too often. In fact, I came out the other side feeling like I was still right about the whole thing being an act - and maybe even why he was doing it - just wrong about the fact he was scum.

2) I find it difficult to judge how much info we'd have gotten (or get now) out of a town flip from IAWY or MM.

1. Yes, he was meta-gaming throughout the latter half. In my experience, it's best to not lynch such players Day 1. This is why I can understand Sloonei taking his vote off Frog. Regardless of Frog's alignment, it was guaranteed that he'd interact with people a lot and that would give us a lot of reads.

2. Well, MM and MP were the lynch candidates. MM tried to start a wagon on Sloonei but people moved on to IAWY instead. An IAWY flip would give us info on the voters who switched to him and insight into Sloonei's and MP's alignment. MM was a divisive read for a lot of people and he had his own leads. His death would've clarified quite a bit too. What info did we get from the Frog flip?

[Marco]

MetalMarsh89, you scum-read Golden, correct? And Golden, you scum-read MM, right?

Correct. I have a light scum-read on Golden.

I don't have anything to say to your suggestion that we are distancing and mafia teammates. It's not the first time I've heard it today, nor do I expect it to be the last.

Who else said it today? I must have missed it.

[Golden]

1) I did feel like it was an 'act' (not the being drunk thing, but just his whole demeanour). I have expressed this before in different ways, but I'll do my best in expressing it in a new way. I felt like he was trying to dominate the town direction and push it in the direction he wanted, and to me it felt wifom (like, does he want to be town leader, or does he want us to think thats what he wants), and he pushed his particular gambits in a very dismissive way (I'm right, you're wrong) and talked about how no-one would have the balls to nk him, and I began to feel as though the whole thing was one big pile of wifom with the deliberate goal of making himself too much of an enigma to be touched. I've seen scum do things like that and run to the end too often. In fact, I came out the other side feeling like I was still right about the whole thing being an act - and maybe even why he was doing it - just wrong about the fact he was scum.

2) I find it difficult to judge how much info we'd have gotten (or get now) out of a town flip from IAWY or MM.

1. Yes, he was meta-gaming throughout the latter half. In my experience, it's best to not lynch such players Day 1. This is why I can understand Sloonei taking his vote off Frog. Regardless of Frog's alignment, it was guaranteed that he'd interact with people a lot and that would give us a lot of reads.

2. Well, MM and MP were the lynch candidates. MM tried to start a wagon on Sloonei but people moved on to IAWY instead. An IAWY flip would give us info on the voters who switched to him and insight into Sloonei's and MP's alignment. MM was a divisive read for a lot of people and he had his own leads. His death would've clarified quite a bit too. What info did we get from the Frog flip?

On 2 - explain to me what info we get from voters who 'switched to him' and how we get into the alignments of MM and MP if IAWY was town, in a way that we would not have gotten exactly the same from people who moved away from MM and IAWY to Frog, and the alignments of MM and IAWY? I can't see how these two things are different? Expressly tell me what kind of info we would have gotten, and why, from a town IAWY flip and why we do not have analagous information from a Frog flip. I don't understand this at all.

From my perspective, the reason we don't have data from a frog town flip is primarily because we have no scum flips to try and factor in what it means. It may give us information later. But similarly, an IAWY town flip feels like it would be exactly the same to me... I can't fathom what useful information would have come from it.

[Marmot]

MetalMarsh89, you scum-read Golden, correct? And Golden, you scum-read MM, right?

Correct. I have a light scum-read on Golden.

I don't have anything to say to your suggestion that we are distancing and mafia teammates. It's not the first time I've heard it today, nor do I expect it to be the last.

Who else said it today? I must have missed it.

I know zebra said it here.

I thought sig also acknowledged the possibility, but I can't find it, so perhaps I'm mistaken there.

[Inawordyes]

Your read of MovingPictures07 is... polarizing.

Why does he fall as a town read despite shady stuff?

He looks pretty townie aside from it, and I already had too many people in MU null list and I didn't want to put MP there even if he's probably the most applicable for it as defined by "I could see them flipping either way". Obviously the shady stuff affects my townread of him, which is why he's only a lean at the moment.

[Golden]

Regardless of Frog's alignment, it was guaranteed that he'd interact with people a lot and that would give us a lot of reads.

Here's the thing though... he wasn't. After his early interactions with you guys, he literally essentially stopped interacting with people. At least that was my impression. He got fixated on four names and no longer engaged in anything else. That's why I struggle to see what we lost as lost value. There is a difference between 'active and vocal' and actually providing content. He wasn't.

[ika]

does someone want to give em a rundown of what happened while iw as gone? i went back to work and didnt read since