Retrocausality Mafia - ENDGAME: A Reprieve in the Desert

[Kylemii]

Kyle is...I dunno what sort of jar of pickled yams Kyle is.

Bread and Butter

[Turnip Head]

I mean I’ll volunteer

[Spacedaisy]

Here are some coincidences that don't sit well with me.

1. sig campaigning for pres before the night started and no one was talking about it that I recall. Turns out that according to TH sig was who he picked... does anyone else find this really pingy?

2. sig vanished after the claim of Quin (which I don't recall Quin walking back) and then Quin vanishes, courtesy of the PP and sig reappears afterwards. Now sig is trying to talk down Quin's claim.

I just don't see why i should believe that sig is good. Because INH is the one was vanished assumedly by sig's hand. Let's assume that Quin was telling the truth, sig vanished because he knew he was going to be lynched, luna gets lynched in his stead and on her way out the door tosses a green peek at this dead player she would not know for sure is coming back or not but she stated it like she knew, then Quin dies and sig reappears. If all that is true then INH was not bad and why are we giving sig credit for vanishing him as if it is a point in his favor? The mafia vanished the person who is the most damaging to sig's town credibility, right before sig reappeared. Someone tell me why i should believe him? I want to know why my mind should be changed about sig right now.

[Epignosis]

Epignosis, can you comment on this?

You wouldn't believe me if I told you.

[Golden]

Yo, colin... I think scotty knows from the nature of his role that I must be town the same way I know from the nature of mine that he must be. We’re a pair, yknow? Like PB and J.

I can see that. I can also easily see where alignment mix-ups can happen per the way things have been described.

No, you can't. You think you can, but you can't.

[Scotty]

Here are some coincidences that don't sit well with me.

1. sig campaigning for pres before the night started and no one was talking about it that I recall. Turns out that according to TH sig was who he picked... does anyone else find this really pingy?

2. sig vanished after the claim of Quin (which I don't recall Quin walking back) and then Quin vanishes, courtesy of the PP and sig reappears afterwards. Now sig is trying to talk down Quin's claim.

I just don't see why i should believe that sig is good. Because INH is the one was vanished assumedly by sig's hand. Let's assume that Quin was telling the truth, sig vanished because he knew he was going to be lynched, luna gets lynched in his stead and on her way out the door tosses a green peek at this dead player she would not know for sure is coming back or not but she stated it like she knew, then Quin dies and sig reappears. If all that is true then INH was not bad and why are we giving sig credit for vanishing him as if it is a point in his favor? The mafia vanished the person who is the most damaging to sig's town credibility, right before sig reappeared. Someone tell me why i should believe him? I want to know why my mind should be changed about sig right now.

From sig’s perspective, vanishing TH is the best option because he is directly opposed to sig’s alignment as per Quin.

Though now that you mention it, he could know TH is not on his mafia team and since there are no reveals or info, dumping info that only he would know about is the best ammo he has. This doesn’t clear sig, but I think he is at least being honest about the deadchat thing. I don’t know what purpose that has as mafia except to muddy things up. His role literally hinges on him misdirecting and lying if he is mafia

[Epignosis]

TH?

[Spacedaisy]

I think he meant INH?

[Scotty]

TH?

Oops, meant INH

[Scotty]

I’m having trouble separating these games lol.
My iddy butty Brain is overheating

[Spacedaisy]

I just think I don't have a dead chat to rely to know if he is telling the truth or not. And the vast majority of stuff that happened in thread seem to me to say he is going full on riverdance trying to get outta this one.

[Spacedaisy]

"yeah that was weird that luna fake claimed cop, but she wasn't bad."

"Quin shouldn't have lied about the message but Quin was right." ::vanishes INH to prove how great he is::

"I have a cool civ power that lets me die and go talk to people in the vanished chat, in fact I left a nice message there for whoever I send there next, but don't worry I'll bring you back."

The only thing that could sink his claim is if the vanished reappear. That point is the only way in his favor. This claim will be useless if a a civ comes back and can say "Sig is full of shit"

Also, who says this doesn't have a mafia utility? Game with no flips remember? He could just be gaining cred from deadies who may be coming back into the game. Or getting useful info from them to use to get himself town cred here. This is assuming he actually did have chat with the dea, which we don't know for sure.

I'm not 100% sold on sig being bad, but I would put myself at probably 90%. That point about a rezzed civ being able to counterclaim is the only thing that keeps me at 90% though.

[ColinIsCool]

Yo, colin... I think scotty knows from the nature of his role that I must be town the same way I know from the nature of mine that he must be. We’re a pair, yknow? Like PB and J.

I can see that. I can also easily see where alignment mix-ups can happen per the way things have been described.

No, you can't. You think you can, but you can't.

I'm assuming in a game with multiple doctors that some of them don't work the same way we're used to. In a game with a rezzing mechanic, there may be a doctor who is capable of a rezz rather than just regular protections. Now, a single user being able to rezz is pretty powerful, so a balance might be to have someone on the scum team whose role is to find that "doctor" out of all the other players. You've hosted games before — is that not sort of reasonable?

Granted, as I typed this I realize that it then made no sense for you to keep Scotty alive if you're scum and your role works that way, so there ya go.

[Golden]

Colin, you're assuming all sorts of things I don't have to assume.

I know scotty is town. That's part of my role. There's nothing to assume.

[Golden]

There is something inherent in our roles than enables us to be certain.

[Golden]

The thing I really have trouble getting over with sig is this...

Luna spewed a 'cop green peek' on him as a lie just before he came back. I'm certain if they are scum together she knew he was coming back. I feel she was trying to buy him cred.

[ColinIsCool]

Has anybody else noticed that "host" and "other" are now separate categories on the lynch poll? Is this notable?

[Turnip Head]

I'm hankering for a sig lynch

[Golden]

Sig did start his campaign during the day so it’s not that suspicious that TH picked him

[Turnip Head]

Colin, you're assuming all sorts of things I don't have to assume.

I know scotty is town. That's part of my role. There's nothing to assume.

Will you support his presidential bid?

[Epignosis]

Has anybody else noticed that "host" and "other" are now separate categories on the lynch poll? Is this notable?

No.

It's funny.

[Golden]

Colin, you're assuming all sorts of things I don't have to assume.

I know scotty is town. That's part of my role. There's nothing to assume.

Will you support his presidential bid?

I’d support Scotty winning an item, yes. Although I wouldn’t mind getting one at some point.

[Golden]

I had noticed it. Speeds little dig at epi calling him out. I loved it.

[Turnip Head]

Colin, you're assuming all sorts of things I don't have to assume.

I know scotty is town. That's part of my role. There's nothing to assume.

Will you support his presidential bid?

I’d support Scotty winning an item, yes. Although I wouldn’t mind getting one at some point.

k

[Epignosis]

I had noticed it. Speeds little dig at epi calling him out. I loved it.

This, however, is not funny.

[Golden]

I had noticed it. Speeds little dig at epi calling him out. I loved it.

This, however, is not funny.

That's a tragedy of epic proportions.

[ColinIsCool]

insertnamehere dig:

The first notable thing about INH is that he made more of a concrete contribution to this game thread in one post than he did through all of U-Pick's, in the form of the ReadZone. Since he was lynched for appearing close to his AssClass scum meta in U-Pick (and rightfully so), this could be a deliberate attempt to buck that recent loss and do things that register as immediately different. It did for me, anyway.

I liked that post for the most part when I first saw it, but someone (Golden, I think?) brought up the point that it crucially does seem to be holding a vote hostage. INH will vote for Golden, but he'll change it unless Scotty votes for him, too. That's not really supporting either lynch, and it actually absolves him of any real responsibility. If Golden is town, it's, "Look, I bought Scotty's case," and if Scotty is town, it's "Look, it's Scotty's own fault for looking so suspicious." I have a real tendency as scum to worry about what people will make of my votes after they've been made, and I can see some of that between the lines here, if INH is not town.

His defenses following that post are fiery and very unlike those of U-Pick, a side of him I haven't seen in games before.

If we read these posts by INH in succession, it is pretty clear that he in fact does seem to be slipping as indie: he does not argue that sig is not town or that they may both be, most tellingly. I really do think it's strange that INH didn't think to attack sig here, perhaps even regardless of alignment, unless he considered sig town and is considering himself as "pro-town." Which begs the question: if all these indies are so pro-town, why are they indie?

In installment no. 2, he offers a robust defense of sig while also casting shade at Luna, among others. I really don't know what to make of INH in this game and I get the sense that he's laying extremely low hoping we'll sort of forget about him. While we do that, what is he doing? I have no idea. None.

In general, I kind of feel like we've all dismissed the possibility that he's scum and we're misinterpreting his posts (despite what I just said). I don't see why this should be set aside, at all; claiming indie in the face of a non-aligned claim like Quin gave (if sig is town) is not a bad way to try and buy time. I think I would support an INH lynch, pending further discussion, but I'd like for him to get in and tell us why exactly he's an advocate for us.

[ColinIsCool]

Zephyrus dig:

Zephyrus and Quin, who do you think we should lynch?

lapluie. If I'm going to be lynched on the grounds that I'm not contributing, let's not pretend I'm the only one.
[VOTE: lapluie] aubergine

If Zephyrus is scum, this is more interesting to me than the previous post Epi first hammered him for. Others have spoken to this, but for me the thing is that he's arguing the logic of it in a way that seems frustrated by that logic and not its outcome. I do this ALL THE TIME as scum — get combative with the faulty reasoning of a foe that, nonetheless, leads them to the correct conclusion. Because they don't deserve to know I'm scum that way, dammit! I can see Zephyrus manifesting that sort of feeling here as well.

Aside from that, Zephyrus died so early and with so few contributions that it is reaaaaaaaaally hard to come down one way or another on whether he's scum or not. I can't say I'm all that moved to think he is, but that above post has persuaded me more than anything up to this point that he might be.

[Golden]

OMG is that - a town looking post from colin in this game? Where has this upick colin been hiding?

[Epignosis]

insertnamehere dig:

The first notable thing about INH is that he made more of a concrete contribution to this game thread in one post than he did through all of U-Pick's, in the form of the ReadZone. Since he was lynched for appearing close to his AssClass scum meta in U-Pick (and rightfully so), this could be a deliberate attempt to buck that recent loss and do things that register as immediately different. It did for me, anyway.

I liked that post for the most part when I first saw it, but someone (Golden, I think?) brought up the point that it crucially does seem to be holding a vote hostage. INH will vote for Golden, but he'll change it unless Scotty votes for him, too. That's not really supporting either lynch, and it actually absolves him of any real responsibility. If Golden is town, it's, "Look, I bought Scotty's case," and if Scotty is town, it's "Look, it's Scotty's own fault for looking so suspicious." I have a real tendency as scum to worry about what people will make of my votes after they've been made, and I can see some of that between the lines here, if INH is not town.

His defenses following that post are fiery and very unlike those of U-Pick, a side of him I haven't seen in games before.

If we read these posts by INH in succession, it is pretty clear that he in fact does seem to be slipping as indie: he does not argue that sig is not town or that they may both be, most tellingly. I really do think it's strange that INH didn't think to attack sig here, perhaps even regardless of alignment, unless he considered sig town and is considering himself as "pro-town." Which begs the question: if all these indies are so pro-town, why are they indie?

In installment no. 2, he offers a robust defense of sig while also casting shade at Luna, among others. I really don't know what to make of INH in this game and I get the sense that he's laying extremely low hoping we'll sort of forget about him. While we do that, what is he doing? I have no idea. None.

In general, I kind of feel like we've all dismissed the possibility that he's scum and we're misinterpreting his posts (despite what I just said). I don't see why this should be set aside, at all; claiming indie in the face of a non-aligned claim like Quin gave (if sig is town) is not a bad way to try and buy time. I think I would support an INH lynch, pending further discussion, but I'd like for him to get in and tell us why exactly he's an advocate for us.

Are you saying you'd be willing to lynch INH today?

[Golden]

Having said that, it's pretty much a defence of 'why sig isn't bad' and, like, I just think really that sig is bad and I feel as though colin's entire game to this point has been in defence of sig and luna.

[ColinIsCool]

Having said that, it's pretty much a defence of 'why sig isn't bad' and, like, I just think really that sig is bad and I feel as though colin's entire game to this point has been in defence of sig and luna.

I don't think I've defended sig pretty much at all in this game? He looked sus as heck before he vanished and I'm still not persuaded for reasons that I thought I explained (and that Spacedaisy put better).

I can sort of see why you think my going after TH is a defense of Luna, but I think we just fundamentally disagree on the matter of him. I'm apparently a TH hawk through virtue of my role and its deep contradictions with what he's saying, whereas the rest of you are filthy hippies who want peace and all that liberal BS.

[ColinIsCool]

OMG is that - a town looking post from colin in this game? Where has this upick colin been hiding?

I've had a really hard time getting myself into this mode with no reveals, but I've had some time I usually don't to really dig in and really postulate, y'know? Feels good.

[ColinIsCool]

Are you saying you'd be willing to lynch INH today?

I don't want to tip the scale one way or another until I'm done, so I know the best candidate is facing it, but he's on the list for sure.

[Golden]

Are you saying you'd be willing to lynch INH today?

I don't want to tip the scale one way or another until I'm done, so I know the best candidate is facing it, but he's on the list for sure.

I think epi's point is that he thinks you might have trouble succeeding.

[ColinIsCool]

Oh, shit, I forgot all about that. Oops.

[ColinIsCool]

On that note: I have no idea what to think of him vanishing, or its timing. The fact that it didn't take place immediately upon change-of-phase is, well, I dunno what it is.

[Golden]

On that note: I have no idea what to think of him vanishing, or its timing. The fact that it didn't take place immediately upon change-of-phase is, well, I dunno what it is.

I think it's very apparent sig did it. He claimed it was his item use from winning the election.

[ColinIsCool]

Doesn't that pretty much contradict what he's saying here though?

And I think threatening to vanish someone's a good way to start! I even left them a nice little message in dead chat.

OK, if you're really civilian...

What's your aim with this ability? How do we as town get best benefit out of it? What are the boundaries of how it operates? Does this person come back?

my aim is atm to stop myself from getting lynched by sending someone back to read over my messages ect, plus I need to be alive for them to come back.

I guess if we're at lylo I could send mafia, but that would be iffy.
Town benfits since if I send town they can chat it up with the vanished players, if they're active. and find out how they're influencing the game.
Same as mine I pick someone they leave come back next day phase if I live.
Most likely.

He wants to use the power to send a civ there ... so sends INH, who he earlier said he wanted lynched?

[sig]

No i've not sent anyone back yet, there'd be alot more theater involved if I did.

MAc right now has 1 strike to get sent somewhere, but otherwise y'all are good.

IF town wants me to pick a town leader to send back so they can chat it up with the deadies, get info, and be safe from night actions I'd be down for it.

[ColinIsCool]

Golden dig:

Well I warned you all I’d be quieter than usual in this game and, see? I was being honest about that.

I just want to point out that Golden currently has 462 posts in this thread and 10 pages to ISO, so, uh, about that...

I've clashed with Golden some through what a combination of strange moments that rang false (his response to Mac on D1), an automatic skepticism of thread leaders (thanks to traumatizing experiences here and elsewhere) and the rich behind-the-scenes life he seems to be living, and a nagging feeling that parts of his self-confidence are actually him TMIing all over the place like a drunk uncle at your 13th birthday party (with regards to things like size of mafia team, what the nightpoll does, and so on). I won't be going over that stuff unless I find something that really helps me expand on it.

In that case

[VOTE: scotty] aubergine

Because there’s no way in hell your suspicion of Zephyrus or linking him to me is genuine.

As a policy lynch it’s consistent with normal town scotty. I might even buy it if you said it just had aspects of a policy lynch but there was a small suspicion. Scotty likeslynchinv low posters early.

But not apolicy lynch at all? Genuine suspicion based of a single early day zero post? There is nothing true about that - not from you, or epi, or anyone ever.

I'm kinda interested in hearing Golden's re-assessment of this in light of what he now claims about Scotty. The language here is strong enough that every suspicion of Scotty he echoes after on D1 is essentially an echo of this post, and I can understand why (if everything he's saying is truthful) he would switch, but it calls into question just what exactly he thinks Scotty was thinking, I think.

woah woah woah who said anything about this being my role

i've already roleclaimed

honestly i have no fuckin idea how cool the rest of the town's roles are comparatively but mine seems pretty damn cool so let me live a few days k

i'm a stump.

this is incidentally probably why nutella was vanished last night by the way

If that's why she vanished that's a bastard move. That makes me sad

Is scum Golden the type to make posts like this in the thread and twirl his mustache in secret? Just asking. He didn't know when his last scum game was so I can't go look at it, and anyway I haven't had time to do that for him or Daisy (oops ...) Closely related: The other thing nagging at me throughout is the insistence that a scum Golden doesn't bus teammates, etc. At some points it feels a little ... on-the-nose? I dunno. I'm not articulating this very well but reading this guy's ISO is frankly exhausting.

Let's do something more fun.

sig and INH are Booker DeWitt and Comstock. That is to say, both have been swept away by the Luteces. They're not here.

Who gets your vote and why?

Epignosis
Choutas
Lapluie
Kylemii
Lunalee

or maybe Colin because I keep tinfoiling him.

Interested in hearing some more about Choutas (sprit, I guess), Lap and Kyle — again, is this the low-hanging fruit thing?

Aside from that, my bigger qualm with Golden is that he hasn't engaged with me much since aligning himself as suspicious of me (all while accusing me of voicing opinions "generically" or something!) but I can't blame him with the stuff going on IRL, so that's a wash.

[ColinIsCool]

No i've not sent anyone back yet, there'd be alot more theater involved if I did.

MAc right now has 1 strike to get sent somewhere, but otherwise y'all are good.

IF town wants me to pick a town leader to send back so they can chat it up with the deadies, get info, and be safe from night actions I'd be down for it.

"Hey, you know where dead people go? I can send a town leader there if you like," sig said, his smile making the room uncomfortable.

[sig]

No i've not sent anyone back yet, there'd be alot more theater involved if I did.

MAc right now has 1 strike to get sent somewhere, but otherwise y'all are good.

IF town wants me to pick a town leader to send back so they can chat it up with the deadies, get info, and be safe from night actions I'd be down for it.

"Hey, you know where dead people go? I can send a town leader there if you like," sig said, his smile making the room uncomfortable.

[Epignosis]

No i've not sent anyone back yet, there'd be alot more theater involved if I did.

MAc right now has 1 strike to get sent somewhere, but otherwise y'all are good.

IF town wants me to pick a town leader to send back so they can chat it up with the deadies, get info, and be safe from night actions I'd be down for it.

By the sound of it, the chat wasn't very chatty. I don't know what benefit there'd really be.

[MacDougall]

No i've not sent anyone back yet, there'd be alot more theater involved if I did.

MAc right now has 1 strike to get sent somewhere, but otherwise y'all are good.

IF town wants me to pick a town leader to send back so they can chat it up with the deadies, get info, and be safe from night actions I'd be down for it.

Wait, that 1 strike was to get sent somewhere?

Can I have 3 strikes please and get the fuck out of here?

[Spacedaisy]

No i've not sent anyone back yet, there'd be alot more theater involved if I did.

MAc right now has 1 strike to get sent somewhere, but otherwise y'all are good.

IF town wants me to pick a town leader to send back so they can chat it up with the deadies, get info, and be safe from night actions I'd be down for it.

Wait, that 1 strike was to get sent somewhere?

Can I have 3 strikes please and get the fuck out of here?

it’s a tough game on everyone I think.

[Golden]

The reason I haven't been much with engaging with you colin was that I was aiming to draw the kill last night.

It didn't matter if it was you and you felt you need to pick me or someone else trying to set you up. Either way, making it as clear as possible I had no interest in engaging with you furthered that goal.

I nearly switched who I watched to Quin when he claimed, and I should have... I was 50/50... but I thought the growing number of things I seemed to know beyond my claimed role might draw fear.

[Epignosis]

No i've not sent anyone back yet, there'd be alot more theater involved if I did.

MAc right now has 1 strike to get sent somewhere, but otherwise y'all are good.

IF town wants me to pick a town leader to send back so they can chat it up with the deadies, get info, and be safe from night actions I'd be down for it.

Wait, that 1 strike was to get sent somewhere?

Can I have 3 strikes please and get the fuck out of here?

You're not Charlie Blackmon.

[Golden]

If anyone absolutely knew of a way to bring someone back, that could be a viable thing to do.

[Spacedaisy]

Clearly Nutella or Quin would be the best options for a Rez. Plus they might be able to tell us if Sig’s claims hold any semblance of truth.