Zootopia Mafia [Game Over]

[colonialbob]

Announcement

@colonialbob @MacDougall

You are both racist for voting in the night poll.

Predators don't represent black people because that sends the message that black people used to be "savage" until they decided to be more like white people, making it safe for both races to live together. Additionally, that would make the main character arc a story about how a scrappy white police officer overcomes racism against white people to save the day. Bob is racist for thinking this is the case.

Prey doesn't represent black people because then the movie is about how white on black violence is actually a plot concocted by black people to make white people look bad. This from a movie that comes on the heels of high profile incidents like the deaths of Trayvon Martin and Eric Garner, would be incredibly racist. Mac is racist for believing this is the case.

They're also both racist for comparing black people to animals. In a game about a children's movie no less. You should both be ashamed of yourselves.

Spoiler: show

In all seriousness, the truth is that despite being framed as a allegory about race relations in America, Zootopia doesn't say anything at all about racism. There is no systemic racism in Zootopia. It merely contains individuals like Mr. Hopps who believe in untrue sterotypes about other animals, individuals like Bellweather who use this individual prejudice to their advantage and jokes/plot points that use whatever animal is convenient as a metaphor for whatever race is convenient but only for the duration of the joke or as it relates to that specific plot point.

The message of equality and tolerance is entirely undercut by the fact that different mammals are waaaaaaaaaay more different than people of different skin colors. A woman that clutches her purse closely in the elevator when a big black man enters but does not do the same when a similarly sized white man enters is racist. As far as she knows, these men are the same but for their skin color. A rabbit who is fine sitting next to a sheep but not sitting next to a wolf is justified because unlike a sheep, a wolf can fucking eat her and it is a plot point that wolves used to go around eating rabbits. Both sidesing the issue and saying that everyone just needs to not judge people by the color of their skin is the most patronizing level 1 message you could possibly have as the conclusion to your movie about racism and that's exactly what Zootopia does.

To be fair, it's really hard even for movies that are not aimed primarily at children to say something insightful about race without being entirely ham-handed about it. Crash won best picture in 2004 and it is just as shallow as Zootopia while spending far less time with likable characters. If you haven't seen it, Zootopia is still more than worth watching because it is at the very least incredibly funny. There are several scenes that I can watch over and over and laugh at every time and that's worth something, even without a deep message.

"Bastard game" indeed

[colonialbob]

I'm on [VOTE: Kyle] aubergine for now btw

Why Kyle?

You've mentioned 0 suspicion of him all game, and in fact have called him town multiple times.

Town Kyle generally eases into a game before really hitting his stride. We're several days in and I still haven't seen much. Plus y'all are confident in LC and I'm waiting to hear why.

[colonialbob]

Spoiler: show

I don't object. What's your view?

Well, largely PoE.

Also, a little bit of hinkyness from Bob himself. I was looking back, and noticed he had started being on my radar for quite a while, but was like staying quiet and not drawing attention to himself.

There was that Day 1 vote weirdness, and an explanation post that uses some of the excuses about wonky voting I've used before as mafia (association bias, I acknowledge):

Spoiler: show

A decision is better than random and I prefer soneji to the other two with two votes so [VOTE: soneji] aubergine

What made you go from voting me to voting the wagon I started?
Also the votes were not tied when you voted. Nut had already voted Soneji here.
Why did you prefer Soneji over Kyle and Daisy?

Clearly nobody was going to vote with me, and there was a three way tie that I did not care for. I was sus of you, sure, but it's day 1, there's only so strong a sus can be.

They were tied when I started that post, 2 v 2 v 2. With literally a minute before EOD it's not like there was time to check what had actually happened in the linki. Actually I changed my vote before posting to make sure I made it before the poll closed and it jumped from 2 to 4 votes, but again didn't have time to check who had voted or anything.

Kyle is a player who generally takes time to ease into a game and is (generally) not somebody I'm ever interested in d1. I feel relatively good about my ability to read him as the game progresses. Daisy was absentee and had some questionable voting patterns associated with her. Soneji was the only one of the three with actual reasons to be sus.

(Also sorry for the broken tag I manually typed the slash and used the wrong direction like a real dumbass)

((also sorry for being racist against asses, donkeys, and other members of subgenus Asinus))

Then, he told me this:

Spoiler: show

Excellent. Mac trusted LC, and I expected LC to be the one to go down.

I'm spit balling here, indulge me.

With a role like Officer Higgins, would one perhaps expect Mac to have been an alignment cop, or something similar?

If yes, and remembering that the host said we would not be alerted if/when our targets were changed... should an alignment cop trust the results they get from the host upon checking the alignment of another player? Therefore should the rest of us trust the reads of a possible alignment cop? How should we handle such a possibility? Or should we just chuck it to the bastard winds?

Trust the cop until they're outed.

And Mac's very last post was this:

Spoiler: show

Ok, I'm home on the computer. Indulge me for a minute and allow me to completely let go of paranoia for just momentarily. I'm looking at the player list. And if I go ahead and let myself fully trust even those people I don't 100% trust, I'm curious what my suspect pool will look like. Anyone who has given me a town ping at some point in the game I'm counting as town in this PoE exercise.


coloniabob
jinrou


That's who I'm left with. Who are YOU left with, if you do your own GTH reads, and don't allow yourself to have ANY nulls at all? What does your PoE look like? In your gut, or in your heart, or whatever organ you mafia with. (Ye perverts!)


This is before I've done another read-through or vote analysis, it's just my general sense of who feels town to me this game.

Welcome to my brain 12 hours ago

Linki - Mac - we're gonna try our level best, friend.

What day 1 vote weirdness? If you think I bussed, say that.

I fail to see how that response is scummy.

Sure, you and Mac suspected me and jinrou. So what? If you're trying to say that's why Mac died, why wouldn't you be the target? After all you're a lot higher on most people's civ list than he was.

I think you may have bussed. Happy?

Also, have you understood ANY of the reasons behind ANY of the night kills up to this point? Why would they start making sense now? And why would you choose to use that argument when the NKs have been beyond kooky since Night 1?


Linki with myself!!!
OMG I'VE CREATED A HOLE IN THE TIME-SPACE CONTINUUM WITH MY CONTINUED USE OF MULTI-TABS!!! SAVE YOURSELVES!!!

You think I was bussed? By who?

I only brought it up in response to your comment about Mac. If you didn't intend that to be about night kill logic then fine.

[colonialbob]

I'm on [VOTE: Kyle] aubergine for now btw

why

Show me town Kyle

[Logic]

My townpile is
Dizzy
Indy
Epi

My sort later
Kyle

My POE
ColBob
LC
Jinrou

I'd prefer to lynch from the bottom of this list up. I'm okay with being placed in the vicinity of Kyle or Bob.

[Logic]

My problem with people like Logic and Jinrou is that I have no standard by which to judge them.

Jinrou marching in here acting like "Golly, Mafia is just about finding the guys doing anti-town things is where it's at!" has me scratching me head. Jinrou, if it's that easy, do you ever lose as a civilian?

Logic's most recent games:

Spoiler: show

Town
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ampionship

Town sub-in for a zero-poster (anonymous game; I'm Jim Halpert here)
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ing-3-0%29

Town Sub-in
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ewolf-Game

Scum
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... fia-Game-B

Scum sub-in
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... fia-Game-A

I did provide links to 5 games of mine, FYI.

[Long Con]

The last baddies have to be in Jinrou, Kyle, Logic, or Owner. I feel very good about Epi and bob, and indi and Dys are outside tinfoils... pretty far outside.

[Logic]

The last baddies have to be in Jinrou, Kyle, Logic, or Owner. I feel very good about Epi and bob, and indi and Dys are outside tinfoils... pretty far outside.

I disagree with you about myself and Kyle, but think Kyle is less towny than Indi, Dys and Epi.

Who would you put as your bottom two; the ones you want lynched first?

[colonialbob]

The last baddies have to be in Jinrou, Kyle, Logic, or Owner. I feel very good about Epi and bob, and indi and Dys are outside tinfoils... pretty far outside.

Are you a wolf?

Not, like, a werewolf, just a regular wolf.

[Logic]

My townpile is
Dizzy
Indy
Epi

My sort later
Kyle

My POE
ColBob
Owner
LC
Jinrou

I'd prefer to lynch from the bottom of this list up. I'm okay with being placed in the vicinity of Kyle or Bob.

Also note I forgot to include Owner in this list originally. Added in here.

[Logic]

Crap. I might have forsaken my ability to vote by mistake.

[Logic]

I guess it wasn't permanent.
[VOTE: Jinrou] aubergine

[indiglo]

I guess it wasn't permanent.
[VOTE: Jinrou] aubergine

Votes in the poll are changeable up until poll closing.


Pretend we take Jinrou out the equation for a minute, who would your 2nd option be? I now have reason to doubt/question his mafianess.

[indiglo]

The last baddies have to be in Jinrou, Kyle, Logic, or Owner. I feel very good about Epi and bob, and indi and Dys are outside tinfoils... pretty far outside.

What if I told you I feel pretty good about Logic, and that I feel I may have been wrong about Jinrou?

[Long Con]

The last baddies have to be in Jinrou, Kyle, Logic, or Owner. I feel very good about Epi and bob, and indi and Dys are outside tinfoils... pretty far outside.

What if I told you I feel pretty good about Logic, and that I feel I may have been wrong about Jinrou?

I would take your opinions as honest... I don't have a strong preference among those not on my trusted list. You also know both of them, and this is my first time meeting them, so experience counts as well.

[colonialbob]

The last baddies have to be in Jinrou, Kyle, Logic, or Owner. I feel very good about Epi and bob, and indi and Dys are outside tinfoils... pretty far outside.

What if I told you I feel pretty good about Logic, and that I feel I may have been wrong about Jinrou?

I think these are good opinions*

*except I'm starting to have a sneaking suspicion of what the bastard part of this game is

[Logic]

The last baddies have to be in Jinrou, Kyle, Logic, or Owner. I feel very good about Epi and bob, and indi and Dys are outside tinfoils... pretty far outside.

What if I told you I feel pretty good about Logic, and that I feel I may have been wrong about Jinrou?

I think these are good opinions*

*except I'm starting to have a sneaking suspicion of what the bastard part of this game is

I'm actually starting to think we might be on the same page here.

• miller claim
• several players with suddenly "good feelings" about another

What do you guys think that means? I have an idea, and am willing to state it outright if no one wants to guess first.

[colonialbob]

The last baddies have to be in Jinrou, Kyle, Logic, or Owner. I feel very good about Epi and bob, and indi and Dys are outside tinfoils... pretty far outside.

What if I told you I feel pretty good about Logic, and that I feel I may have been wrong about Jinrou?

I think these are good opinions*

*except I'm starting to have a sneaking suspicion of what the bastard part of this game is

I'm actually starting to think we might be on the same page here.

• miller claim
• several players with suddenly "good feelings" about another

What do you guys think that means? I have an idea, and am willing to state it outright if no one wants to guess first.

I think we have multiple cops, and that those cops are probably useless. Originally I was thinking they might be predator/prey cops, but it seems LC copped speed as town.

[Long Con]

I did indeed. How many cops can a game handle?

[Logic]

Cop here also checking in. Epi checked green N3, and Mac checked green N2. BWT did not submit an action N1.

[colonialbob]

Nutella n1 (which in retrospect was a poor choice from her vote, but I was suspicious Jack would give a town-firming post restriction)
Mac n2
Jinrou n3

All town

[colonialbob]

I'm willing to exclude the 3 of us from the POE pool. This feels like something that would be hard for a mafioso to fake being part of.

So if I assume for the moment that our results are worthless, that gives us logic, LC, and myself as town. Willing to stay with indiglo and dizzy as town as well. Which would mean Epi, Kyle, Jinrou, Owner are the POE. Thoughts?

[indiglo]

Same. I copped BWT Night 1, Epi Night 2 and Jinrou last night - all town.

[Logic]

I think indiglo copped me and jinrou green. Look at posts #1113 & #1114.

[indiglo]

I did indeed. How many cops can a game handle?

Probably a lot if the host is lying on results or our targets got switched without us knowing.

[indiglo]

I'm willing to exclude the 3 of us from the POE pool. This feels like something that would be hard for a mafioso to fake being part of.

So if I assume for the moment that our results are worthless, that gives us logic, LC, and myself as town. Willing to stay with indiglo and dizzy as town as well. Which would mean Epi, Kyle, Jinrou, Owner are the POE. Thoughts?

Ok, this is reasonable. That's a good PoE pool.

[Logic]

Oh jack, you magnificent bastard

I don't know Juliet, so I'm not going to call her any names.

[Logic]

I'm willing to place my vote one someone that hasn't been cop cleared, but I think cop clears are probably bunk.

[colonialbob]

Jack: "hey look at me I'm the chief of police"
Also jack: *fills the game with worthless cops*

Kinda makes you think.

[indiglo]

Oh jack, you magnificent bastard

I don't know Juliet, so I'm not going to call her any names.

Jules is pretty magnificent herself.

Ok, so 4 people to lynch from.

Maybe we should list them from least scummy to most scummy?

[indiglo]

Now you guys understand why I was asking about trusting cop results? Lol. When jinrou copped town, I was seriously dumbstruck.

[colonialbob]

Now you guys understand why I was asking about trusting cop results? Lol. When jinrou copped town, I was seriously dumbstruck.

Yeah that question makes way more sense now.

Probably should iso those people, but I feel epi as least scummy in my gut.

[indiglo]

Now you guys understand why I was asking about trusting cop results? Lol. When jinrou copped town, I was seriously dumbstruck.

Yeah that question makes way more sense now.

Probably should iso those people, but I feel epi as least scummy in my gut.

lol

I agree. Epi is least scummy to me too.

I feel like I'm leaning more towards Jinrou and Kyle over Owner. But that's gut.

Also, don't you think kooky Kyle would send in kooky night kills?

[indiglo]

[VOTE: kyle] aubergine

Moving to Kyle for now. At least until we get this sorted.

[Logic]

I happen to think Kyle is town leaning.
Would much rather go for jinrou and owner over kyle.

[indiglo]

The last baddies have to be in Jinrou, Kyle, Logic, or Owner. I feel very good about Epi and bob, and indi and Dys are outside tinfoils... pretty far outside.

What if I told you I feel pretty good about Logic, and that I feel I may have been wrong about Jinrou?

LC, this is when I was 100% sure you were a cop too. I had suspected it already.

Just for the record, THIS is how we used to info-dump on LP back when info-dumping was illegal.

[indiglo]

I happen to think Kyle is town leaning.
Would much rather go for jinrou and owner over kyle.

Any reason in particular you think Kyle leans town?

I'm a million percent on board with Jinrou though, so I have no problem with that.

[Logic]

On perusal through ISO, Kyle doesn't look that great.

I had thought Kyle started the Soneji wagon for decent-ish reasons, but now it doesn't look that way.

Soneji's vote on Kyle doesn't look all that good either, and I can easily see the partner distancing.

[Long Con]

The last baddies have to be in Jinrou, Kyle, Logic, or Owner. I feel very good about Epi and bob, and indi and Dys are outside tinfoils... pretty far outside.

What if I told you I feel pretty good about Logic, and that I feel I may have been wrong about Jinrou?

LC, this is when I was 100% sure you were a cop too. I had suspected it already.

Just for the record, THIS is how we used to info-dump on LP back when info-dumping was illegal.

That's how we do! It's probably obvious at this point who I checked, but Epi N1, speedchuck N2, bob N3. All town results.

[indiglo]

Another thought. Double targeting is allowed in this game. What if the first time you cop someone, they always cop green? And to get the true result they must be copped a second time?

I know that's half crazy, but it popped into my head so I'm saying it.

[Owner of a Lonely Heart]

I realize my answer isn't a good enough answer given our cultural differences.

Let me try again:

Long Con comes from a time when role claiming wasn't allowed, and so do I. I am more comfortable claiming, and he is probably not.

No matter: What does mafia Long Con have to gain jumping to a civilian speedchuck's defense five minutes before his lynch? What's in it for him except to bring scrutiny to him?

That must have been hard. I played some games were like that.


---

Having lots of cops make sense thematically.

But with it being a bastard game, I don't know if we should trust all the checks or not.

There are still the potential of fakes, but I don't know if we should be lynching into the players who claimed cop.

---

Could this be a low scum game? Do a lot of bastard games have more or less scum in them? I think the last bastard game I played was on VS maybe?

[Owner of a Lonely Heart]

Here are the cop types I know about, aside odd night, even night, or 1 shot cops.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Cop

[Owner of a Lonely Heart]

Here are the cop types I know about, aside odd night, even night, or 1 shot cops.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Cop

But I also feel like this is too much information. Or quite frankly, I wish we would get more information of the deaths as then I would feel like we are going somewhere or getting closer to an end state.

[Owner of a Lonely Heart]

The last baddies have to be in Jinrou, Kyle, Logic, or Owner. I feel very good about Epi and bob, and indi and Dys are outside tinfoils... pretty far outside.

Are you a wolf?

Not, like, a werewolf, just a regular wolf.

I don't think this wording really helps. Couldn't someone just say no because in most cases their animal in this game woulsn't be a wolf?

I guess there were a few wolves in movie though.

[Owner of a Lonely Heart]

Jack: "hey look at me I'm the chief of police"
Also jack: *fills the game with worthless cops*

Kinda makes you think.

Or maybe there is only one true cop? (as per dependent on which character a person is)

[Owner of a Lonely Heart]

Or actually maybe there's a tailor role? https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Framer

similar to a framer role, makes scum investigate as townie..

---

But at the same time, speculation about the game setup will only get us so far.
We really need to be sure of our reads.

I'm fine with lynching in the group POE. I feel like being in said POE for some players makes me more informed in some way.

---

or wait sec!! what if investigate as town means that town = prey and scum/mafia = predator? but then again all the checks are town though...hmmm

[Owner of a Lonely Heart]

I'm remembering now why I don't usually sign up for bastard games.

I don't know what information to trust if there is anything real actually there to go on.

I guess I want to reread and maybe go based off reads or actual content in the thread vs. a potential check.

I do think Kyle hasn't been doing all that much with how long he has been in this game. I feel like Logic has provided x more information than Kyle has.

The potential distancing votes between kyle and Soneji are there.

So Kyle is maybe where i want to place my vote, but it also feels too easy.

But then if I think about it most games feel too easy when there's a lot of mechanical game info lying about.

so going from memory, [VOTE: Kyle] aubergine

But like I said I do want to reread and maybe get fresh eyes on something I didn't see before...idk

I really don't like not knowing how much information I can trust to be true.

[colonialbob]

The last baddies have to be in Jinrou, Kyle, Logic, or Owner. I feel very good about Epi and bob, and indi and Dys are outside tinfoils... pretty far outside.

Are you a wolf?

Not, like, a werewolf, just a regular wolf.

I don't think this wording really helps. Couldn't someone just say no because in most cases their animal in this game woulsn't be a wolf?

I guess there were a few wolves in movie though.

This was due to a host post in which Jack mentioned a hippo coo, a rhino cop, and a wolf cop. I'm a rhino, Mac was a hippo, so I wondered if LC was the wolf. But then indiglo is also a cop so this doesn't really matter anymore.

[colonialbob]

or wait sec!! what if investigate as town means that town = prey and scum/mafia = predator? but then again all the checks are town though...hmmm

Yeah, that was my first thought, but LC checked speedchuck (a predator) as town

[Long Con]

The last baddies have to be in Jinrou, Kyle, Logic, or Owner. I feel very good about Epi and bob, and indi and Dys are outside tinfoils... pretty far outside.

Are you a wolf?

Not, like, a werewolf, just a regular wolf.

I forgot to answer this. No, I'm not a wolf, but I am an Officer in the ZPD.