Grasslands [Game Thread]

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Still waiting to find out what I win

Spoiler: show

maybe if I add a spoiler I’ll get an answer

no comprendo

This is valid reasoning and it may reflect what Nanook was referring to earlier about Hally and SPF being aligned. I'm putting this in a spoiler though because I bet he doesn't notice or click it before he has visited his notification from me quoting him with my question.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think the most egregious thing with Alison is what I just reviewed in her handling of Sloonei. I would appreciate other views on that, as I acknowledge that I have had Alison in the crosshairs all game long and I am more susceptible to confirmation bias than most.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Still waiting to find out what I win

Spoiler: show

maybe if I add a spoiler I’ll get an answer

no comprendo

This is valid reasoning and it may reflect what Nanook was referring to earlier about Hally and SPF being aligned. I'm putting this in a spoiler though because I bet he doesn't notice or click it before he has visited his notification from me quoting him with my question.

I'm disappointed. This isn't the degree of narcissism I know and appreciate.

[tutuu]

@tutuu: I think it's seriously illogical for you to view my meta as "Alison is always suspected/put in the POE when she's town" (which isn't true but the point is that you believe it), and then list "Alison isn't as consensus town as she was in Radiohead" to be a reason to suspect me.

Well didnt u say urself that game was an anomaly? I dont think ive listed "alison isnt like in radiohead" as a reason to scumread u i believe; i think the reason i gave is primarily sheeping other people since idk if i can read u well (or if i havent well thats the reason!)

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Still waiting to find out what I win

Spoiler: show

maybe if I add a spoiler I’ll get an answer

no comprendo

This is valid reasoning and it may reflect what Nanook was referring to earlier about Hally and SPF being aligned. I'm putting this in a spoiler though because I bet he doesn't notice or click it before he has visited his notification from me quoting him with my question.

I'm disappointed. This isn't the degree of narcissism I know and appreciate.

Well tbf I did see your question first, but I figured you’d see the answer I posted after that. But I didn’t snark in reply so that’s progress!

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Another note: my suspicion of Alison likely colors my view of Thunal given the antagonism in that interaction. I tend to think that Thunal looks like a civilian, and I also acknowledge given my lack of familiarity with her that there is room for me to be wrong. So those of you that believe Thunal to be suspicious, please engage with me at your convenience. I may not be moved by Alison's case, but if she is town then she is capable and could be right. So I am conscious of that.

[Alison]

Sloonei has no original reads and I dislike that. I don't think he's ever expressed an issue with me or engaged with me meaningfully and now I'm his top scum read. Feels opportunistic.

Sloonei's ISO

Open this and CTRL+F "Alison".

This assertion is just not true. I want to eliminate Alison.

I did. I'm not seeing it. Quote the post where he meaningfully engages with me.

317 -- has a lot to say about you, some of it positive
549 -- directly addresses you
706 -- continues to consider the matter of Alison out loud
769 and 782 -- directly addresses you twice, both with questions for you to engage with
795 -- general query about you
815 -- voices uncertain concern
826 -- makes his concern more specific, quoting numerous Alison posts
827 and 832 -- directly engages two other people about you
840 -- votes for you among two others and makes suspicion clear

You said he didn't engage with you "meaningfully". That looks like hot bullshit to me.

You said he didn't ever express an issue with you. That is objectively false.

Also if you want to get me eliminated, you're going to have to do better than vaguely asserting that my posts are "fake" or full of "bravado" and then saying that you don't believe my case on Thunal for no reason despite not being able to actually rebut any of my arguments.

There you go. This post also serves little purpose beyond discrediting me in a way that does not fairly reflect my treatment of you.

That is not meaningful engagement. My claim was not "Sloonei has not spoken the word Alison out loud in this game". Yes, I was wrong and misremembered that Sloonei hadn't expressed suspicions of me before today. But I think the main thrust of my point - which was that Sloonei has only spoken about me in brief, unmeaningful spurts - remains.

#317 is a reasonable set of takes about me - I give it to you. It's a positive set of takes, though, so his suspicion must come from somewhere else. But where?

#549 is a straightforward, NAI factual response to something I said, pointing out something I may have missed in my reading. #706 is not meaningful engagement - it's a low-commitment "yeah I sort of liked it" post.

#769 and #782 are direct questions to me, yes - but... where is the result? Does his read progress on me because of the way I answered those questions? As far as I can tell, not at all. And this is the issue I've had. It's not that he's never brought me up - Sloonei's a good enough player to not just slank his way through the game or completely ignore me. My issue is that the progression is not there. He leaps from a relatively unconcerned viewpoint about me D1

#795, #827 and #832 don't count, it's a question about other people's reads on me. It's more of a way to engage with other people (about their read on me) than to engage with me.

#815 is, and I quote, "I have grown suddenly wary of Alison in the last few minutes. It might just be indigestion." I don't know what you consider meaningful engagement, but an unsupported gut read at EOD posted after I said I am going to bed doesn't count. Frankly, I think this post supports my accusation of opportunism.

#840 is basically a longwinded way of saying "Alison is in my POE". I don't consider that to be meaningful engagement, it's just a restatement of his position. What I'm interested in is how he got to that position.

-

I realize that you may feel tempted to get drawn into a back and forth with me about what does/doesn't count as "meaningful engagement". I think that is unproductive. What I aim to do here is to show you my point of view, and to show you what I meant when I said there was no meaningful engagement. These are the posts you yourself quoted - the posts directly addressed to me tend to be relatively neutral, and many of the posts addressed to others about me are inquiring about their read, not his.

The point here is this: ask yourself if the way Sloonei has treated me has been like someone trying to sort a player whose alignment they don't know. Or even a player who's leading the charge against someone they're very sure is scum. Because I don't think that progression points there; the posts I quoted look more like neutral probing -> doubts and discrediting at a convenient time, progressing straight to "Alison is my top suspect" D2. He came out with those doubts on me at a time where other people were suspecting me, and he said I was his top suspect at a time where he was the other person in contention for the exe today.

I don't think Sloonei has made a serious attempt to sort me. He's been trying to push narratives about me, but I don't think he's trying to sort me. That, coupled with the stance he's taken on me D2, feels opportunistic and scummy. That's what I don't like about him.

[Alison]

There you go. This post also serves little purpose beyond discrediting me in a way that does not fairly reflect my treatment of you.

The intention of the post was to discredit your push on me. I am discrediting your push on me because it is wrong.

However, I suggest to you that it does fairly reflect your treatment of me. Here are your stated concerns about me.

1) Early reads are full of "bravado". What does this even mean? Does it mean I'm too confident based on very little information? Others have said that was well within my town range. You've also said it was "inappropriate for the situation at hand". Can you explain how? I think (and have said in public on Discord, even) that early game is entirely the right place for forceful, confident reads.

2) You've said that my reads are "not aligned with the kind of language I expect to see Alison use". I flat out doubt that you know my town game well enough to be able to make reads on me based on word choice. If you wish to contest this, feel free to explain what words you think I'd use to express my reads and why, and I'll show you a counterexample of me not following that model as town. If you have beef based on this, bring it to me and I'll cut it up for you.

3) "Since then she has made cases against Thunal and Hally, and those cases rang hollow to me. They just weren't compelling. I struggle to buy it." This is exactly what I mean when I say that you are dismissing my cases on those players for no reason. You aren't offering a counterargument to those cases - you're just saying "Alison is wrong beacuse she's wrong/because I feel she's wrong" and moving to a scumread on me based of that. Do you expect all of town Alison's cases to be compelling to you or what?

I'm not using this to say you're scum. I can believe that this kind of read is within your town range, and I put you as a townlean on my last list. Many townies have vague or undeveloped reads. But wanting to eliminate me based on a vague/unclear suspicion isn't something that'll fly by me. If you want to accuse me and get everyone to vote me because you think I'm the mafia, you better have stronger reasoning backing you up than what you've shown.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I definitely would prefer we don’t get into a back and forth, so I’ll just think about what you’ve said Alison. Sloonei should tackle it himself.

[Alison]

why did i town read martin? why did i stop doing that? is martin town? does anyone feel strongly about him any which way?

Yes, I feel strongly that Martin is town.

why?

As explained before - Martin's posts resonate with me strongly. You can think of it as a kind of mindmeld if you like - we share a lot of the same thought processes and ways of thinking about the game. I don't think this is easy to fake - in fact I think someone who has a playstyle so similar to mind is probably easier to read for me. I drew a comparison with protocultures here, who was someone who also had a similar playstyle and who I found very easy to read/pocket because I understood where he was coming from.

In addition to my mindmeld with Martin, I think he's shown thoughtfulness in his posts. I struggle to find any evidence of an agenda when I read what he's posting. (If he's posting to push a narrative, I can't tell what that narrative is.) He also feels like a very disconnected and lonely player, striving on his own to develop his own ideas. That "lonely" feeling is I think a towntell, because mafia have buddies and play as though they have buddies (even if they might try to hide it).

[Alison]

I definitely would prefer we don’t get into a back and forth, so I’ll just think about what you’ve said Alison. Sloonei should tackle it himself.

Yes, getting into long-drawn out back and forths that do line by line analysis of every post is something of a failing of my play as town. It's not going to throw games or anything but it never changes anyone's minds and it just ends up being frustrating and unproductive. So I try to avoid doing it. Except when I'm scum, then I do it on purpose to waste townies' time and make them not want to go into the thread.

I'm trying to avoid that happening here by trying to focus on the big picture and broad strokes of why I suspect Sloonei.

[Alison]

thanks for explaining - i'll take a closer look at her ISO. i haven't taken as much explicit concern w/alison's gamesolving as you have, but the biggest thing that i have to support the idea that alison could be mafia is simply the fact that her tone is different and considerably less assertive/pronounced than it was in radiohead mafia. i could always follow alison's logic/reads clearly and it was basically impossible to not tr her - but the blatantly obvious town energy that she showed in spades is kind of non-existent in this game

Some notes about this post.

1) One of JJJ's concerns about me was that I actually seemed too assertive/confident at the start of the game. When I'm being suspected for simultaneously being too assertive and too unassertive, it's time to consider that maybe you two just have a wrong measure of my tone.

2) Radiohead Mafia was different from this game, in that I set out explicitly to focus on obvtowning myself over other goals that game, and said as much in the first post. Also, I managed to get a bunch of really reads early (both town and scum), and that allowed me to come in much more strongly/assertively because I had a much clearer idea on the gamestate. Additionally, because I had a strong PR claim that guaranteed my safety, I never really worried about being suspected, which may have contributed to the tone/demeanour you describe in that game.

[tutuu]

Alison going super saiyan itt

[JaggedJimmyJay]

When I consider universes where Alison is town, process of elimination leads me to some uninspired places, where I feel like I have to default to the most generic suspicions like Long Con and/or Nanook.

I think I'm going to need to do a blind interaction analysis. I don't wanna.

But fine if that's what it takes.

[Thunal33]

page 20

I am exaggerating a bit when I say sloonei was lolcatting, but he really did not post any serious content and seemed completely flippant about the night vote. He really felt detached in the way a deflated scum would.

Why would he be deflated? Town was yeeted.

Because he knew carotte's flip would cement him as the next priority suspect? I feel like that's pretty obvious

If he knew that all along why did he push for Carotte's elim? Why would scum!Sloonei be content with a status quo that heavily implicates him as scum after the Carotte town flip he knew would happen? And I just kind of feel like Sloonei would take more pride in his scum game than this and make more effort to get the suspicion off of him if he's scum, while as town he might want to address it but let his towniness speak for himself (projecting what I would do onto Sloonei since I don't know him).

did sloonei push for carotte’s elimination? because that’s not my recollection. my sense of it was that he didn’t care to take a stance on her one way or another, and i do think that looks bad. like, if sloonei is mafia, why shouldn’t he be content with the consensus D1 or at least try hard to affect it? we were killing a villager

Definitely at least 1 maf in hally-alison-thun imo. Alison and thunal both sussed hally for putting themselves in the grassland, hally proactively sussed someone for putting them in the grassland as wifom. So it would be surprising if all 3 are town, and mafia would put hally there without seemingly taking advantage of it

Just so I am clear: are you suggesting that Hally was sent to the grasslands as some sort of WIFOM ploy by the mafia team, either Hally being mafia and doing it intentionally, or Hally being town sent to grasslands so that mafia could push that exact theory?

....is this not readily apparent? why else would i be sent if not for one of these reasons? or like, what’s your theory?

i didnt get to point this out yesterday but i think it's hilarious that below carotte's cute avatar of a wholesome bunny, her automated username role was: "DRUG DEALER"

lmao
————
i don’t like sloonei’s posting on this page. it seems like a lot of aimless questions. i’m used to sloonei’s questioning feeling more purposeful/pointed than this

I was mistaken about Sloonei's position on Carotte and I addressed that in a later post. A lot of people were suspecting Sloonei but thinking him and Carotte weren't W/W so Sloonei likely knew he would be a major suspect regardless of his alignment.

i feel like this is just a twtbaw argument though. like isn’t it just saying “sloonei wouldnt do this scummy thing if he was scum”?

Yes it kind of is but I feel like Sloonei as a wolf would come up with something more inspiring than "well I'll just go along with the consensus." The fact that it is so level 1 suspicious and Sloonei likely knew that actually makes it unlikely for wolf!Sloonei to do. It's the same reason I have reservations on Alison being scum, along with my theory that scum didn't feel the need to change the threadstate yesterday or move the consensus PoE. Also even though I haven't caught up I looked at the last page and it appears that JJJ isn't considering Sloonei as a suspect anymore.

[Thunal33]

My readslist (unordered):
Hally - did a complete 180 on Carotte once they were sent to the grasslands which I find somewhat suspicious even with their justification. Seems to be solving and gave thoughts I had some agreement with but isn’t outside their scum meta and is one of my deepwolf suspects.
Tutuu - has a confident playstyle, snap voted me and Sloonei, and is widely townread although I don’t see a whole lot of town indicative content. However, when I actually read her posts she seems more towny than when I take a break from the game and come back. Deepwolf suspect.
JJJ - very reasonable, logical, somewhat different from the scum game of his I skimmed. Generally has a thought process that’s consistent and makes sense. Townread.
LC - consensus suspect yet not many people have him as their absolute top suspect. Possibly LHF that actually is scum since there seems to be a general resistance to wagoning him?
Alison - played very differently from her SK game although I’m not sure how AI that is. Suspects me and won’t let go of it even when I’m not a viable elim, which actually makes her look a little better. I don’t understand why me having confident reads early makes her think they’re fake, and I dislike that she hasn’t doubted her position on me. JJJ makes a good point that her early reads were too strong for the gamestate and the last time I made that same observation about someone they were scum. Scum lean.
Nanook - hasn’t done much. I’ve played with him once before in the PvZ game when we were both town and his play was similar there. GTH I’d say town but I’m not confident in that.
Sloonei - feels TWTBAW. His play wouldn’t be strategic if he was scum and I know he’s a top tier player so unless he actually wants to sacrifice himself to put his teammates in a really good position I feel like he would take more pride in his scum game and play in a more conventionally towny way. For example, I don’t see scum!Sloonei taking the position he did towards the Carotte elim. Also, JJJ doesn’t think he’s suspicious anymore and I’m inclined to give that read some weight. Townlean.
Martin - thoughts look genuine and I get the feeling he’s posting whatever thoughts come to mind without a whole lot of calculation which is a good look for him. Townread.
Nutella - mindmelded with me through D1 and I think she looks a little townier from her play in the Grasslands, however I have seen a scum get mad at a town for not playing enough so I’m not giving a whole lot of weight to that behavior. Townlean.
SPF - I really like that she thought something was off with this game because I was having the same feeling and never voiced it in the thread. Generally gives off towny vibes and feels like she did in the finals and in the two turbos I played with her when she was town. I’ve never seen her scum game though.

[Thunal33]

LC ISO takeaways: It feels like there's nothing there. If LC got caught as scum for trying too hard recently it would make sense that he would be inclined to go too far in the opposite direction if he randed scum this game. I find it suspicious that he never reacted to any suspicion on him at all. It reminds me of my scum game in Bastard Fiesta when Insomnia suspected me but I ignored it until he called it out since I thought it would fizzle out. I also found this post suspicious:

And we will take out Sloonei and Martin.

If Sloonei and Martin are both town this indirect suspicion for unstated reasons looks pretty bad. At that time they were probably the most LHF targets (Martin less so but since he has the least FM experience out of anyone here scum probably thought he was an easy mischop to start with).

Phantom vote town: JJJ
Phantom vote scum: LC

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Also even though I haven't caught up I looked at the last page and it appears that JJJ isn't considering Sloonei as a suspect anymore.

To be clear I am not completely out of Sloonei Purgatory. He needs to shine today.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[mention]Alison[/mention] what happens to your present view of the game if Sloonei is town? If Thunal is town?

[tutuu]

[Alison]

@Alison what happens to your present view of the game if Sloonei is town? If Thunal is town?

If Thunal is town I'd probably have to admit I'm barking up the wrong tree entirely and try to take a few steps back and re-evaluate my understanding of the gamestate entirely. If Sloonei is town then I'd just be back onto Thunal. The difference here, I think, is that a Sloonei green flip doesn't give me much info, but a Thunal green flip means I have to reconsider my thoughts on a lot of things.

[Thunal33]

@Alison what happens to your present view of the game if Sloonei is town? If Thunal is town?

If Thunal is town I'd probably have to admit I'm barking up the wrong tree entirely and try to take a few steps back and re-evaluate my understanding of the gamestate entirely. If Sloonei is town then I'd just be back onto Thunal. The difference here, I think, is that a Sloonei green flip doesn't give me much info, but a Thunal green flip means I have to reconsider my thoughts on a lot of things.

Is there anything that would convince you I'm town except my town flip? What are your thoughts on LC?

[Thunal33]

I dislike the general thread consensus that LC is suspicious but not actually pushing him or wanting to vote him. It feels like my experience a couple games ago on PerC in a cult game where the cult leader was LHF that was in the PoE the entire game, yet there was a resistance coming from cult that made them imchoppable (their wagons kept disappearing and people often had them as their second or third suspect rather than first) and cult won. It also reminds me of a scum game of mine back in March on MU where I was similarly in the PoE the entire game and got wagoned 3 days in a row yet still survived and won.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

There’s nothing stopping Long Con from being mafia. He has just made a tradition of playing himself into POE pools so it is hard to draw any confidence from it.

[Thunal33]

There’s nothing stopping Long Con from being mafia. He has just made a tradition of playing himself into POE pools so it is hard to draw any confidence from it.

What makes me suspicious of LC is the interaction around him. Nobody ever had the mindset of "Hey, let's jump on LC!" but generally with PoE town that hasn't done much to clear themselves there's a push to get them mislimed early (that generally is at least partially driven by scum).

[nutella]

The point here is this: ask yourself if the way Sloonei has treated me has been like someone trying to sort a player whose alignment they don't know. Or even a player who's leading the charge against someone they're very sure is scum. Because I don't think that progression points there; the posts I quoted look more like neutral probing -> doubts and discrediting at a convenient time, progressing straight to "Alison is my top suspect" D2. He came out with those doubts on me at a time where other people were suspecting me, and he said I was his top suspect at a time where he was the other person in contention for the exe today.

I don't think Sloonei has made a serious attempt to sort me. He's been trying to push narratives about me, but I don't think he's trying to sort me. That, coupled with the stance he's taken on me D2, feels opportunistic and scummy. That's what I don't like about him.

This response from Alison makes a lot of sense to me, and frankly if Jay continues to harp on the same nitpicks I'm going to start suspecting him

[mention]JaggedJimmyJay[/mention] do you object to Sloonei being the chop today?

[nutella]

When I consider universes where Alison is town, process of elimination leads me to some uninspired places, where I feel like I have to default to the most generic suspicions like Long Con and/or Nanook.

I think I'm going to need to do a blind interaction analysis. I don't wanna.

But fine if that's what it takes.

can't decide how I feel about this post

[nutella]

Spoiler: show

we're back to sloonjay w/w paranoia world pals

[Sloonei]

I just managed to sleep until 1 in the afternoon. I have work at 4. My presence here will be abbreviated today. I’m dumb.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

JaggedJimmyJay do you object to Sloonei being the chop today?

At this point, no I don’t. I can poke holes in accusations rendered at Sloonei, but that doesn’t make him a civilian. I should be more secure about him than I am by now.

[Sloonei]

My predominant concern about Alison's Day 1 is that it feels kind of flat. She made her reads and stated them clearly, but felt a bit static and a bit uninspired, for lack of a better word. Take this post, which I previously noted as something I felt good about, or at least did not disagree with:

Spoiler: show

I think Sloonei's behavior absolutely has warranted a "I think he's making this up". That was the thought I (and a few others) had when reading his posts, so I don't know why it's inappropriate to write it down in text. The reason I said Martin has already pocketed me is because he plays in a way that I find pretty textbook and relatable, which makes it easier to vibe with his mindset and townread him (which I do).

I think Thunal is null. Carotte's point about Thunal is interesting and it makes me go up on her slightly. I still have her as a slight scum lean on the balance of probabilities, but it's a point in her credit. I have mixed feelings about JJJ.

The first bit is patting herself on the back for suspecting me. I initially agreed with her take that it was not unfair to push her particular suspicion on me. Reading this post in more context, however, it reads a bit more defensively: she's not evaluating the quality of the read itself in response to the sudden turn away from the Sloonei wagon, she's just reassuring herself/the thread that she was justified to be suspicious of me in the first place.
The bottom paragraph also contains a lot of words but says very little. I can easily read it as a mafioso who wants to leave plenty of options available to herself.

Spoiler: show

I actually am not a huge fan of how the response from both JJJ and Sloonei to the theory of a JJJ/Sloonei wolf game has been "I'm tired of people always theorizing about JJJ/Sloonei wolf teams". If you think about it, that is actually an AtE defense (albeit a more polite and subtle kind), since it doesn't actually do anything to rebut the theory that they're wolfing together.

This post also does not sit well with me, but it could just be because I have a personal distaste for "this is AtE and AtE = bad" arguments. Emotion is a thing, it happens in games, and not every slight blip of emotional response is an "appeal to emotion." It's just... emotion.
But that's not what I dislike about this post. What I dislike is that Alison is using a fairly dubious argument to toss blanket shade on both Jay and I. The badness of "appeal to emotion" is what exactly? Also, what was the argument that we "were/are wolfing together?" Maybe it's just fatigue with that point in particular, but usually it boils down to: one of us says something generally favorable about the other on Day 1 -> JJJ/Sloonei are both mafia! Was is any different here? Does that need to be rebutted in a serious way?

Spoiler: show

I'm caught up. Okay with the idea of giving Sloonei space to breathe. If he doesn't produce results I'm going to end up voting him anyway and I think the other people who currently suspect him will as well.

I think Thunal is very likely a wolf. They were making super surface-level reads and were never paranoid that the reads were being manipulated. eg. "Alison is town because she's confident", "Carotte is town because she re-evaluated on me". We all scumread Sloonei because he gave a baseless townread on nutella for something that was very likely NAI. Same logic applies here: I think town Thunal would hesitate a bit more and wonder if Alison/Carotte was faking these things to pocket her. Doubly so if she feels intimidated by the playerlist.

Scum Vote: Thunal

Another post that looks too much like appeasing the status quo. This wasn't supposed to be an argument based on Alison's treatment of me, but I think her Sloonei posts reflect the general trend: She suspects me when others do and backs off when the wagon dissolves. I have no direct comment on the pivot to Thunal here. Indirectly, I'll note that Alison ended up on Carot yesterday despite having very little to say about her. Here's what looks to be all of the posts in which Alison expressed a read on Carot on Day 1:

Spoiler: show

I want to gut scumread Carotte for saying hi and dipping. Hard to verbalize this one but I feel she'd be slightly more engaged with the AI stuff (reads flying around etc.) as town.

I'm not super bothered by the lack of pertinence in Carotte's responses. Townies will have different lines of investigation to pursue and I have often completely ignored the "big debate" in a thread or addressed it briefly and dismissively because I think it's a pointless distraction.

I am far more concerned with the lack of engagement in the sense that Carotte has shown less interest in sorting people than I expect her to. Her take on Thunal made me go up on her a little because it's better than "say hi and dip", but as mentioned earlier, I still scumlean her overall because she hasn't done anything with Sloonei/the people scumreading Sloonei, or given takes on anyone but Thunal.

@Hally you asked me about the relationship between Carotte and Alison. If I were doing a blind interaction chart that would be a block I'd be tempted to color orange. They've both said a decent amount about one another without arriving at conclusions I would call clear or inspiring -- lots of room to land on town reads or mafia reads both ways depending upon the momentum of the game.

Take that with a grain of salt, because I don't believe pre-flip associations are super wise if not done comprehensively for everyone, or at least everyone within a POE pool.

alright, thanks. i agree for what it’s worth. alison’s response to me just now re: carotte seemed... not good, like alison wants to distance but not commit to a bus yet. it seems like she’s trying to see if she can get someone other than carotte killed while still “scum reading” carotte. it was too hedgey and trying to have it both ways. like, if i’m being honest, i... really didn’t like it at all

Not much I can say in response to this one. That's just how I feel about Carotte. If you think it's hedgy then okay, I'll just have to show you that you're wrong with the rest of my play.

@Alison i’d like you to talk about non-thunal players, if possible. i think you’ve made your position on her clear enough

can you do a quick sorting of everyone? just so i can see generally where your head is

Town:
tutuu
Hally
SPF
Martin
nova

Townlean:
nutella
LC
nanook

Mixed but trending up:
JJJ

POE:
Carotte
Sloonei
Thunal

I need to sleep. I don't think Carotte dismissing the concerns around Sloonei = not buddies. I can see worlds where Carotte is annoyed that people are suspecting her scum buddy for the wrong reasons and just gives a dismissive "come on guys this is really not a big deal" to brush it off.

I think I've ruled out Sloonei as my vote for today because JJJ is backing him up and he's been doing some decent solving lately. I don't think Sloonei can solo push a Thunal wagon to completion in 4 hours with both nutella and Hally strongly against, so I'd rather [VOTE: Carotte] aubergine.

I'm heading to bed now.

The first two are very early in, and do not address any of the content of Carot's posts, but point instead to Carot's level of engagement. I see no evidence of development on this read throughout the day. I see little to no evidence that Alison attempted to engage with Carot. This is her most static read, and it's on the player we would eventually chop, and (as far as I can tell) the only player Alison voted for other than herself (was the Day 1 poll saved anywhere?). This is troubling. I prodded Alison about her Carot vote when she returned to the thread Day 2 and she repeated the same line she gave on Day 1:

What was the best reason to suspect carot yesterday?

Unimpressive entrance followed by immediately going afk the moment pressure was applied.

Consistent, but deeply uninspiring.

I can easily see these posts coming from mafia.

[Sloonei]

@Alison evidently feels that I have not engaged with her in any meaningful way. I object, but she is right to point out that we've not had any extended exchanges. Direct interaction is always the best way to read people.
So, Alison, if there's anyone in this game that we are not talking about enough, who would it be? Why?

I'm leaving for work relatively soon so I won't be able to carry on a conversation for very long at present, but we can at least get the ball rolling.

[Sloonei]

@Alison evidently feels that I have not engaged with her in any meaningful way. I object, but she is right to point out that we've not had any extended exchanges. Direct interaction is always the best way to read people.
So, Alison, if there's anyone in this game that we are not talking about enough, who would it be? Why?

I'm leaving for work relatively soon so I won't be able to carry on a conversation for very long at present, but we can at least get the ball rolling.

[mention]Alison[/mention]

[Sloonei]

I dislike the general thread consensus that LC is suspicious but not actually pushing him or wanting to vote him. It feels like my experience a couple games ago on PerC in a cult game where the cult leader was LHF that was in the PoE the entire game, yet there was a resistance coming from cult that made them imchoppable (their wagons kept disappearing and people often had them as their second or third suspect rather than first) and cult won. It also reminds me of a scum game of mine back in March on MU where I was similarly in the PoE the entire game and got wagoned 3 days in a row yet still survived and won.

LC would be my answer to my own question that I just asked Alison.

[Sloonei]

@Alison what happens to your present view of the game if Sloonei is town? If Thunal is town?

If Thunal is town I'd probably have to admit I'm barking up the wrong tree entirely and try to take a few steps back and re-evaluate my understanding of the gamestate entirely. If Sloonei is town then I'd just be back onto Thunal. The difference here, I think, is that a Sloonei green flip doesn't give me much info, but a Thunal green flip means I have to reconsider my thoughts on a lot of things.

Can you explain why this distinction exists?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[VOTE: Long Con] aubergine

[Long Con]

I did some catching up - the above posts are sporadic responses to stuff people were aiming my way as I read up. Here's where I'm at. Hally feels slightly better today, had a plausible explanation for not suspecting LC's triple vote....

What is this triple vote?

I also found this post suspicious:

And we will take out Sloonei and Martin.

Remember I was answering a choice between exactly those two players, and another exact pair. I didn't choose Martin or Sloonei to make that statement about, I did a gun to head on two pairs and chose them.

[Long Con]

[VOTE: Long Con] aubergine

Is this to kick my butt into some action? I'll get there.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[mention]Sloonei[/mention] if Alison is town what do you do with this game?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[VOTE: Long Con] aubergine

Is this to kick my butt into some action? I'll get there.

Lots of folks continue to talk about Long Con suspicion or Long Con non-town-reads, but there hasn't been much doing anything about it. So I did something about it. By all means take it as a butt kick and do your thing.

[Sloonei]

@Sloonei if Alison is town what do you do with this game?

Reassess it as always. I am not locked into an Alison-is-scum world right now. If she is indeed town, there are enough other names in my POE that I would not feel the need to panic.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

@Sloonei if Alison is town what do you do with this game?

Reassess it as always. I am not locked into an Alison-is-scum world right now. If she is indeed town, there are enough other names in my POE that I would not feel the need to panic.

If Alison is town, do all of your current town reads remain town reads? I realize you haven't "reassessed", but consider for a moment what role your read on Alison plays in your overall view of the game and do your best to answer.

[Long Con]

[VOTE: Long Con] aubergine

Is this to kick my butt into some action? I'll get there.

Lots of folks continue to talk about Long Con suspicion or Long Con non-town-reads, but there hasn't been much doing anything about it. So I did something about it. By all means take it as a butt kick and do your thing.

So you're doing what Thunal thinks it would be Towny to do.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[VOTE: Long Con] aubergine

Is this to kick my butt into some action? I'll get there.

Lots of folks continue to talk about Long Con suspicion or Long Con non-town-reads, but there hasn't been much doing anything about it. So I did something about it. By all means take it as a butt kick and do your thing.

So you're doing what Thunal thinks it would be Towny to do.

I'm doing what I think ought to be done. You're a blank portrait in this game and anything that might help to change that is worthwhile.

[Sloonei]

@Sloonei if Alison is town what do you do with this game?

Reassess it as always. I am not locked into an Alison-is-scum world right now. If she is indeed town, there are enough other names in my POE that I would not feel the need to panic.

If Alison is town, do all of your current town reads remain town reads? I realize you haven't "reassessed", but consider for a moment what role your read on Alison plays in your overall view of the game and do your best to answer.

I do not have a comprehensive view of the game in that respect right now. Alison is independently the player I find most suspicious. If that turns out to be wrong, then something about my overall impression of the game might be wrong as well, but there is no direct reason to infer that.
How would you feel if Alison flips town?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

How would you feel if Alison flips town?

My first emergent thought would be "I may be wrong about Thunal", and I'd view it as a reason to really reassess you and Hally too. Even if I don't follow or feel compelled by her cases, Alison is a capable player whose reads should be given consideration if they're confirmed as genuine.

[Thunal33]

I did some catching up - the above posts are sporadic responses to stuff people were aiming my way as I read up. Here's where I'm at. Hally feels slightly better today, had a plausible explanation for not suspecting LC's triple vote....

What is this triple vote?

I also found this post suspicious:

And we will take out Sloonei and Martin.

Remember I was answering a choice between exactly those two players, and another exact pair. I didn't choose Martin or Sloonei to make that statement about, I did a gun to head on two pairs and chose them.

I didn't see that your post was in response to anything, and I couldn't find much from the immediate context. What was the question you were responding to?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

not actually here but uh

what on earth happened in that treehouse

Did you look at the chat yet? I just linked it.

Dont tell me u DMd her rofl

No, I just wanted to try a weird trap and see if Hally had access to the treehouse from scumchat.

I did not link it, I wanted Hally to say something like "yeah I skimmed it" so that I could potentially catch them.

Oh was a joke lol soz

Ur like, a dry humor type of gal aint ya? Or how do u call it. Pan faced? Stone faced

Not really a joke either. I just thought I maybe had a 0.001% chance of catching scum!Hally in a small gambit.

I'm doing blind interactions. This bit inspired me to ask a general question to the game:

Are Thunal and Hally compatible as mafia teammates with the above posts in mind?

[Sloonei]

How would you feel if Alison flips town?

My first emergent thought would be "I may be wrong about Thunal", and I'd view it as a reason to really reassess you and Hally too. Even if I don't follow or feel compelled by her cases, Alison is a capable player whose reads should be given consideration if they're confirmed as genuine.

What’s the best reason to suspect LC?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

How would you feel if Alison flips town?

My first emergent thought would be "I may be wrong about Thunal", and I'd view it as a reason to really reassess you and Hally too. Even if I don't follow or feel compelled by her cases, Alison is a capable player whose reads should be given consideration if they're confirmed as genuine.

What’s the best reason to suspect LC?

There's no reason to call him town.

That's all I have.