Grasslands [Game Thread]

[MartinGG99]

Page 28

Some quotes are trimmed.

Blind Interactions

Is there anything preventing you from saying I could be "particularly compatible" with Sloonei or don't appear to be "likely mafia teammates" with Sloonei?

I could imagine arguments for both, but to see you only team me up with Long Con and not really Sloonei (who's marked as having yellow with me) has me curious.

this is a very strange post

what arguments could you imagine for why you’re compatible with sloonei? and what about not compatible? and why did you feel the need to ask about your own compatibility with him? how does that help you solve?

I highlighted the short answer for you above.

No, it doesn't help me solve effectively, or at least I don't think it would. But I was curious for my own sake as an independent player in the realm of Forum Mafia.

It was very interesting that I was being seen as probably aligned with Long Con but not really so much with Sloonei; My snap thought was that if he were going to do that Blind Interactions thing, he would've marked me as orange with somebody other than Long Con (such as Sloonei, of who I have moderately or lightly defended in the past).

It just feels weird that out all of the players he associated me with, he associated me strongly with a player who:

1. I have had absolutely no knowledge of prior to this game
2. Has (or had) one of the lowest post counts in the game of the living players.
3. (As far as I'm aware of) My only reason for not voting is that it's allegedly their playstyle to be like this for day 1 and etc.

I mean, seriously? I'm kind of confused/surprised by this and I would've really liked to know more about it, as per my curiosity.

I read through Alison's ISO, and I spent awhile thinking about it.

There are posts in there that I liked, but most of those have been early game. A lot of their posts though, I've been feeling neither too particularly towny or scummy.

However, I get the feeling that if Alison does have a playstyle or thought process very similar to me then if she's scum....all she's doing just making points and that's it.

Or something. I'm not entirely sure. I haven't read any of their scum games.

Either way, I wouldn't feel too comfortable going forward if it wasn't Alison that was executed next. I just need to know if they're town or mafia.

[VOTE: MartinGG99] aubergine (Because I'm not going to be the doc save lol, and even if town agreed with me getting it I would think you all are insane)

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine


I mean, think about it. If she's scum and her plan is to discredit (or scum-paint) as much people as possible (like Thunal, Sloonei, JJJ, etc at times) then she's done a decent or good job of it at times. Like trying to prevent some sort of town-core from forming.

And while I can completely understand if she's town, I think if she's scum it may be too dangerous to leave her alive beyond D2. As to whether she has spewed or anti-spewed if scum, I'm not sure but I think she would've made it difficult to know.

i don’t follow this at all. it sounds like you’re more just saying you want to eliminate her for information/because it will help you going forward to know her alignment. but why is she mafia? also your point that she’s gone after a lot of people isn’t really true. she’s really only ever hard pushed thun and sloonei. she clearly is not trying to scum read as many people as possible. and what do you mean, “all she’s doing is making points”? what is bad about that?

this whole post is very confusing. i have no idea what you’re trying to say

I don't use colors very often, but I think its important here for the sake of communication since you've brought up many things in a very short space for me to talk about.

Does this ("Or something. I'm not entirely sure.") make it look like I have solid reasoning for following this?

I may be misinterpreting here, but I get the feeling that you're framing this in a negative way without consideration of the game-state circumstances. At least a few players here have mentioned that they aren't sure of their reads because it either doesn't feel right or that there's probably a deep wolf somewhere or something like that. Those players are EXPERIENCED players saying that. Is it not natural for me, a town player with only 6 games of experience, to default to some sort of move (that may or may not be out of desperation) that may be viewed as not necessarily towny?

I likely misspoke here. Its not really "a lot of people". But my belief in the possibility here still stands. I feel like she's been in the way of getting people who I view as town from getting town-read.....If I'm wording that right. My last scum-game, as I believe I said in another post, one thing I was set upon was trying to dismantle key players who could pose a future threat. If, taken to one of the extremist extents of interpretation (which I acknowledge may be extreme) of me supposedly having similar thought processes as her, then she may have the same scum play style as I do.

There. I highlighted it for you. At the current moment (or at the moment of typing) I feel the best move is to see Alison executed.

i'm admittedly feeling a little bit stressed because i most likely have to vote/out my final reads tonight (roughly about 12ish hours before the deadline), and i feel like i don't have the time to delve into as many players as i would like.

setting that aside, my top suspicions as of right now are sloonei/martin/alison, in that order, and i'm likely going to end up with a vote (or a ghost vote) on one of them

out of the three names i listed in that post, does anybody strongly object to any of them being voted?

I would very much prefer that Alison is eliminated before me.

Sloonei I feel is probably town, but if you feel that's they're scum right now then I suppose I can't convince you since I don't know them personally as a player. (That and I only have 6 games of experience)

please tell me in as much detail as you can why sloonei is town

I could spend a fair bit more time explaining why I like their X posts and what not, but for now I'll just give the short version.

Basically, I think their D1 and early game was rather awkward, and D1 attacks on them were kinda flimsy. On D2 so far I can recall some sort of feeling of towny vibes from them and some of their posts. I haven't done a full-fledged ISO of them, but I have given them a few glances and just felt that they were towny. I kind of don't get the fusses that people have been having with him, though I haven't looked into them in very much depth.

i lean on pursuing a martin chop

i feel like martin is probably just mafia.

I'd be down for a martin chop.

Oh boy. 3 people down for a Martin execution within 3 minutes.

I wonder how they ("they" in general to the town) are planning to treat my green flip? Will they just not think of me much? Will the town just, not think much of my beliefs?

I mean, if there's one thing I've noticed is that Carotte found me as towny before they got executed and flipped green. AFAIK, nobody has even quoted Carotenoid on day 2.

Granted, I have only 6 games of experience so I guess my opinions may be preety worthless aside from getting Thunal town-read early on I suppose.

But if I am causing so much trouble for town that, IF THE THREE PLAYERS I QUOTED ABOVE ARE ALL TOWN, then I think it may be worthwhile to consider the value of getting myself executed today. (Spoiler alert: There isn't much value!)

i apologize but i cannot understand this at all. could i trouble you to type out a list?

@Hally

I'll give you a more updated list, in a more proper or informative format. My thoughts were kinda all spread-out earlier but now I feel a fair bit more cohesive after reading some ISO's.

Towniest to Scummiest:

Thunal33
Tutuu
Staypositivefriend
JaggedJimmyJay
Sloonei
Hally
Long Con
Nanook
Alison

Green = Mostly Confident in this position.
Yellow = Unsure
Red = I've put not much effort into this read.

This is my tentative reads list for now. Might change in the future.

sorry to keep bugging you but can you add like one line of reasoning for each of them?

Thunal33--- Mostly because of my early game read, but I've been finding their tone overall to be great imo.
Tutuu----I mostly sheeped this on Day 1, but on Day 2 I had to see other people's thoughts about it by testing it.
SPF----I haven't looked into them much, last ISO I did of them was around Post 540-ish and from what I can recall I felt they were okay enough to be town.
JJJ----I think most of their posts since my question to him and my fussing over Tutuu have been good enough in terms of tone (not including the exercises of Blind Interaction and Bun-To-Head, though I think those were good too for the most part).
Sloonei---I just explained this earlier in this response post.
Hally---I haven't looked into you a whole lot, same as before on D1. However, I suppose you could very well be likely town if the mindmeld decision with executing Martin there is true -_-
Long Con---Do I reaaallllyyyyy need to talk about this one? He hasn't done much afaik. I've held off just because people said its his meta to be like he was during D1.
Nanook----I'm distrusting them on the basis that they tried to get the spot where they would have the execution's ability at night. Its also effectively a doc save, which makes me wonder if a wolf (possibly Nanook) would try to dive for that spot to get free reign to kill whoever they want. If nothing else,
Alison---Given that you've seen my other posts, and may see the other parts of this response post, this may be answered already.


I also just realized I left Nutella out by accident -_-. She would've been yellow right above Long Con because I do recall that some of their thoughts in night 1 ( I think? Don't remember) aligned with mine. I had that noted in that picture I showed earlier of my "notes" (they aren't proper notes tbh and you could see that).

My predominant concern about Alison's Day 1 is that it feels kind of flat. She made her reads and stated them clearly, but felt a bit static and a bit uninspired, for lack of a better word. Take this post, which I previously noted as something I felt good about, or at least did not disagree with:

Okay. Sloonei just used a "post icon" on this post.

Can I town-read him for it?

That was an accidental misclick. I’d never do something like that for game-related purposes.
Why would you town read me for that?

I don't know why, I wondered if it was AI at all and I asked out-loud.

It would seem you think its NAI on the basis that it was a misclick.

I was just imagining if it was conducive to having a good towny tone or something. A scum might be too focused on their arguments to add a post icon. I don't know, hence why I asked.

Sloonei - Long Con - Nanook - open
Sloonei - Long Con - Martin - open
Sloonei - Nanook - Martin - open
Alison - Long Con - Nanook - open
Alison - Long Con - Martin - open
Alison - Nanook - Martin - open
Long Con - Nanook - Martin - open

(Colors aren't indicative of anything and are there for clarity)

Mentions of Nanook: 5
Mentions of Long Con: 5
Mentions of Martin: 5

Yeesh why don't you just vote all 3 of us already if we're in like 99% of your tinfoils there? (Well, 5 out of 7 tinfoils for each player to be exact)

Or are you hoping to achieve something else with this?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I wanted to get a closer look at Alison's reads progressions. I use this kind of chart to visualize that -- the colors depict her reads [generally per my interpretations] on each player in the game over time, starting early Day 1 on the left and progressing toward the present moment on Day 2.



What's immediately apparent is the prevalence of straight lines of color in this chart. Alison's read has only "changed" on three players: Hally, Long Con, and myself. Her read on me hasn't changed since around mid-Day 1 though, and her read on Long Con has only kind of "changed" in that she has accepted him as a worthy chop. Her change on Hally was quite brief.

So I have to wonder if this is a natural expression of what [insert average expected civilian] might look like in this particular game where things have been so clouded in uncertainty. While others struggle to form and develop their reads with confidence, Alison's basically don't move. And it has left her with three suspects, two of whom she feels aren't compatible with one another.

I'm bothered, but I want to know what others think.

[Long Con]

I'm not going to directly address the post that refers to an ongoing game and don't think it should exist. If you find an example from a completed town game of yours I'm happy to engage.

Okay, that game is completed for me because I'm dead, there's no Integrity being lost by looking at what is now a past game for me, especially when there's exactly examples of the things you're accusing me of as being Mafia traits.

[Hally]

I am a bit bothered by Alison's reaction to Thunal going after Hally. I realize Alison has voiced suspicion of Thunal for a while, but for Thunal's suspicion of Hally (which I thought looked pretty authentic at least) to trigger her directly to a vote and a call for a chop doesn't sit right with me.

Have Alison's reads changed in this game?

i agree. i am more convinced than ever that thun is a villager after her push on me and alison reacting to it by calling for a thunderdome between her and thun feels both off and extremely performative. i don’t know if shes just badly tunneled or mafia though

[Hally]

Martin's posts that I think are really good - I would hesitate to call it a flat out mindmeld since I don't actually agree with every word he says in these posts, but I can relate to the thought process enough or have thought similar things myself that I am fairly certain it comes from town.

#18, #30, #94, #644, #800, #1225, #1280

I'm not going to waste time typing up a huge wall of text about why every single Martin post I quoted is town indicative. I just want to highlight a particular post - I think that #644 is super townie for Martin's playstyle specifically. proto did the exact same shit where he would agree with a scumread on him and then overanalyze his own play and end up concluding that there were aspects of his play that were definitely scummy and that a townie should probably vote him here, and then reverse stance and explain why he's town anyway. Generally I think this kind of overthinking your own play is endemic to this playstyle in general, but sharing it in thread rather than keeping it to yourself (or putting it in the scum chat) is >>rand town. #94, where he ponders the nuances of information control to stop himself from being manipulated as scum, is also >>rand town.

I also think making a huge case on nova and then nightkilling him makes very little sense in Martin's position. I also think #800 expresses his genuine thoughts about the nightkill (kill the most unpredictable player, and I definitely have done that a lot as scum) and that as such he would push for tutuu, not nova, to be exed if he was mafia.

Anyway that's my town case on Martin. All of these reads + a hefty dose of gut/soul reading him as being super pure and transparent and I think it's easy to see why I have him as lock town.

i’ll check these posts in the night phase. i don’t want to vote martin this day anymore anyway

I was hoping for some insight. You sound very sure, so I thought you'd have some fresh reasons in mind.

the way she makes reads as mafia is totally different. i don’t know how to explain it better than that but i’m pretty confident i would have caught her immediately in that game. she just did not look like town!nut

FTL is a bad example, because nobody (yes, nobody) played hard and looked like town. So she could coast. Potentially better examples:

Vanilla Mafia (heist)
Mafia Season 6 scrimmage (sit down)
Take Me Out to the Ballgame (heist)

Would link but can’t easily right now on phone

i checked these games too and i still think she’s very different

page 26

i’m not following you here. you think scum wouldn’t have wanted to change the consensus last day but yet you tr sloonei because he followed the consensus and scum wouldn’t do that. like, how can it be both that scum would do X AND also that it’s twtbaw to do X so they would avoid doing it? this argument just doesn’t move me

I was thinking that because Sloonei was the next person in the PoE. As the next person in the PoE scum!Sloonei and his scummates wouldn't be happy with the consensus. However, if Sloonei was town and scum knew they were heading towards a mislim on Carotte that set the groundwork for another mislim on Sloonei they would be quite happy with the consensus.

but thun, look what’s happening this day. we’re trending towards an alison elimination, not a sloonei elimination. or at least, it will probably be a close vote. so the consensus has shifted in a way that is favorable to sloonei, and he’s clearly had a hand in that by hard pushing alison. how does this jive with your argument? like, you say scum would be happy with the consensus D1 if sloonei was town because carotte’s elimination would lead to sloonei’s elimination. but it’s pretty obvious that we aren’t just sleepwalking into eliminating sloonei this day. it could be alison, who was not a consensus top suspect for most of D1. doesn’t that invalidate your argument? because what you think the wolves would want if sloonei was town (i.e. a sloonei elimination) is increasingly less likely to happen? why can’t that shift in consensus be scum motivated to benefit scum!sloonei?

Okay, the consensus has changed. I see that change as being favorable and driven by town (such as JJJ, Martin). I still feel like Sloonei risked unnecessary suspicion with the way he approached the Carotte elim and he doesn't have the defensiveness I would expect from someone who takes pride in his scum game. He basically did a 180 from his early D1 play where he was frustrated by suspicion and now he's solving despite having suspicion on him yet not completely ignoring it either.

okay. i still don’t think this is a good reason to tr him but fwiw i am way less confident he’s scum atm

why do you keep poking holes in people’s accusations of him if you don’t even tr him? i know we had this back and forth already D1 when you defended him but i feel like your exchange with alison is the same kind of thing. you keep saying you don’t tr him yet you seem to like batting away accusations thrown at him. it’s just... kinda weird. like, you clearly have your own reservations with sloonei, so why does such a significant portion of what you talk about when it comes to him seem to be defending him rather than elaborating on your own concerns with him? you seem like you don’t actually want to suspect him

Poking holes can have at least two purposes: pro-Sloonei purposes, and anti-Sloonei accuser purposes. When I griped at Alison, my motivation was suspicion of her. Regardless of my struggle to clear Sloonei, if I feel Alison has made bogus assertions about him then my priority is to express that -- because it reflects badly on her. It's the sort of thing that is often wrongly turned into "chainsaw defense" accusations.

I literally think there is not a good case against Sloonei in this game. I think there have been numerous accusations hurled at him that are poorly-conceived. I thought Alison's was outright in bad faith, so I accused her of that. That's why I am so frustrated about it. Because "a lack of a good case" is not the same thing as "Sloonei is town", and I would vastly prefer to be able to just say the latter. The best I can give you is that his posts don't fill me with that good fuzzy feeling that I would expect them to fill me with. I realize that's vague, but sometimes that's just the way it is. They're not bad posts. They're just posts. It's kind of driving me nuts. I can't tell if he is lacking something that matters per his alignment, or if he is too fatigued of the game to be Sloonei.

I am accustomed to people being suspicious of Sloonei for bad reasons. He has dealt with that pretty much his entire Mafia "career", and usually I am the one tasked with setting the record straight. Most of the time though that is accompanied by Sloonei also doing things that I can concretely call "civilian Sloonei". In this game I am seeing the same kinds of suspicions that I think misunderstand (if I am generous) Sloonei, but I am not consistently seeing the congruent town in him. He hovers in this infuriating beige space and won't get out of it. It's very difficult for me to reconcile both sides of that -- thinking suspicions he has faced are bad suspicions while also failing to give a confident town read on my own.

okay. this actually does make sense and is a good answer. i’m struggling with the same thing. his posts aren’t bad but they’re also not good, and i’m similarly left wondering if that’s AI or just due to him being worn out

your point that people are often suspicious of him for bad reasons is valid but doesn’t really resonate with me personally because when we were town together in SF3 i was never suspicious of him. i think he did get suspicion thrown at him early on that game but i could never make myself see him as anything but a villager and he remained my strongest tr along with spf right up to the end. i felt similarly about him in the finals, though i obviously had the benefit of tmi that game. but even still, none if the accusations levied at him throughout the game ever made any sense to me. he seemed unimpeachably towny to me and i think it’s because he has a process that i do resonate with. in sf3 he remarked that he felt he saw the game through the same lens as me and i felt that too. this game it hasn’t clicked like that yet for me. i still feel something is missing

anyway, thank you for the response. it’s helpful

This part actually does look a little towny from Hally, but this post as a whole made me more suspicious of them overall for reasons I'll get into at the end of this post. Hally's listening to JJJ but I think that might be because they think JJJ would pick up on if Hally wasn't listening since they were in finals together.

no, it’s because jay knows sloonei better than anyone so i value his opinion on sloonei more than anyone else’s

I read through Alison's ISO, and I spent awhile thinking about it.

There are posts in there that I liked, but most of those have been early game. A lot of their posts though, I've been feeling neither too particularly towny or scummy.

However, I get the feeling that if Alison does have a playstyle or thought process very similar to me then if she's scum....all she's doing just making points and that's it.

Or something. I'm not entirely sure. I haven't read any of their scum games.

Either way, I wouldn't feel too comfortable going forward if it wasn't Alison that was executed next. I just need to know if they're town or mafia.

[VOTE: MartinGG99] aubergine (Because I'm not going to be the doc save lol, and even if town agreed with me getting it I would think you all are insane)

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine


I mean, think about it. If she's scum and her plan is to discredit (or scum-paint) as much people as possible (like Thunal, Sloonei, JJJ, etc at times) then she's done a decent or good job of it at times. Like trying to prevent some sort of town-core from forming.

And while I can completely understand if she's town, I think if she's scum it may be too dangerous to leave her alive beyond D2. As to whether she has spewed or anti-spewed if scum, I'm not sure but I think she would've made it difficult to know.

i don’t follow this at all. it sounds like you’re more just saying you want to eliminate her for information/because it will help you going forward to know her alignment. but why is she mafia? also your point that she’s gone after a lot of people isn’t really true. she’s really only ever hard pushed thun and sloonei. she clearly is not trying to scum read as many people as possible. and what do you mean, “all she’s doing is making points”? what is bad about that?

this whole post is very confusing. i have no idea what you’re trying to say

Sure, there's a line of questioning here but it's sprinked with "your points don't make sense and are confusing." The questions are more to poke holes in the argument than actual open minded or solving questions. This is suspicious from Hally, more on that later.

because his points don’t make sense. if something doesn’t make sense i’m going to say it doesn’t make sense. i’m allowed to have opinions about things i question

I feel the same way. I got a strong sense that wolves were happy with the D1 consensus since nobody tried to change it. Hally, tutuu, and maybe even Nutella might be deepwolves at this point (I mostly townread Nutella based on mindmelds/having the same takes but that's not strongly town indicative). This is also one of the reasons why I think Sloonei is more likely town than not at this point.

gth, who do you think is the most likely to be "deep scum" in the names that u listed in this post? i find it curious that youre throwing out names of universally tr players that you suspect could have a mafia, but i dont particularly see you exploring today to figure out which one of them could be scum

I feel like eliminating in the non universally TRed people is more strategic for today since it gives more info - and I don't think I could successfully case and push for an elim on any of the players I mentioned since my reasons to suspect them are admittedly thin. It's more "could be scum" and for Hally, it's "not out of their scum range." Hally is the most likely out of the three names I have since they have some small things in their play I found suspicious - their complete 180 on Carotte when they got to the grasslands, even though well explained, I could easily see scum motivation for. They're not posting the same way I'm used to seeing from them, meaning that they're not posting as much and they're not as pushy as I've seen them as either alignment. They're blending in which I find unusual for them but it could be because they have less time to play because of their job. Also they didn't pay attention to my deepwolf suspicion on them which I feel scum!Hally is more likely to do than town!Hally. Hally I have some reasons for. Tutuu and Nutella are more "I don't TR them as strongly as the other townread people."

what is the scum motivation for 180ing on carotte? like, actually. what did that get me if im mafia?

also i don’t really feel im blending in. im posting what i can with the time i have. i thought i was quite pushy with carotte and she ended up being town. now it’s harder to find concrete scum reads. also your point about my number of posts is kinda silly. most of my posts are multiquote catch ups so that i can be sure i save posts for real timing. if you were to break up my multiquotes into individual posts, my post count would be higher. would that make me more likely town? like, why does this matter to you?

also the reason why i haven’t addressed your tinfoil on me is because there’s nothing to address. atm it’s just “hally isn’t out of their scum range.” that’s not a substantive suspicion that i can respond to. i did respond in detail to your point about my 180 on carotte though, so it’s wrong to say i’ve ignored your suspicion on me. everything else has just been paranoia that’s not grounded in anything other than your fear of my scum game. it’s the same thing every game and i’m more than used to it by now, so it’s not something i actually care about, sorry

I've read this post and at this point I can only see scum!Hally making it. My tinfoil deepwolf suspicion has turned into very real suspicion. The blue is a clear attempt to discredit me. I've townread Hally in nearly all the games I've played with them. This isn't even close to being true.

And now we come to the main reason I really suspect Hally right now: They're not listening! Finals Hally literally admitted to shutting down Dya's arguments when they would definitely have listened to Dya as town. I've played a lot of games with Hally. We have quite a bit of history and they usually value my opinion a great deal. Even when I was a flipped wolf in Bastard Fiesta town!Hally took my suspects into consideration to try to find the 3p. As town Hally doesn't take one of their top townreads and say "your arguments make no sense" and "I completely disagree" to everything I'm saying. They would care about my input more than this. They're shutting down Martin too. This is a very good reenactment of what Hally did in finals and nothing like what town!Hally's process is. Oh, and this only makes me more confident that Sloonei is town and Alison is scum because my reads aren't convenient to scum!Hally right now.

re: the blue - i’m not saying it happens every game with you, i’m saying that generally it has become a theme that people become paranoid of me for bad reasons if i don’t live up to exactly what they think i should play like as town

and i am listening. i’m listening a lot. maybe i haven’t listened to you as much as you’d like and i’m sorry if you’re slighted by that, but my iso is full of me asking for and considering the perspective of others. to say im not listening is simply not an accurate characterization of my play in this game. if i’m listening to you less this game it’s because you don’t really know anyone here, so obviously i’m going to place greater value on the input of people who have more experience with the people in this game. also, our reads just happen to be different and i find myself not listening to you as much because you’re presenting arguments i think are invalid and are just confbiasing yourself into the reads you already have. you acknowledge you do this and i’m seeing it this game. you feel something is true and then you make up arguments to justify it. this isn’t a bad thing, everyone does that. but when you get tunneled on your reads so much it makes it harder to listen to you and engage with you. you say i’m not listening but i don’t really think you’ve listened to any of the concerns raised about sloonei at all. you’ve just decided he’s town. and you could be right, as it’s my current feeling, but the point im making is i do not feel it’s fair to call me out for not listening to others when you’ve done that a lot this game

also the comparison to what i did with dya in finals is wrong, just saying. i did not actively shut down their arguments that game. i simply ignored them. this is what i’m talking about when i say you have reads and then just make up arguments based on that to justify what you feel. the thing you’re saying i did in finals that i’m also doing here is not something i actually did in finals. if anything, i was suspected that game for being too agreeable, not too argumentative

Can we like exe Thunal right now? I really want to.

[VOTE: Thunal] aubergine

no, we cannot

@Sloonei what is lc’s alignment?

same question to @Long Con actually - sloonei is [fill in the blank]

Sloonei is mafia. In the early game, as I said, I don't have a strong grasp on why people are Town reading or scum reading others, a lot of the time. As a result, my reads in the early game are often informed by players who excel in the early game. Sloonei is a name I've seen brought up probably more than anyone else as scum, to the point that it was said Carotte being town locks Sloonei as scum.

I would much rather give an answer after I have looked over his posts, which I can do when I'm done with Nutella.

im confused. he’s mafia because people say so? but what do you think? you can answer after you look into his posts if you don’t know

Hally asks a lot of questions like this. It looks like they're listening but they don't follow up and these questions are somewhat pointed.

no thun, screw that. read his post. it is quite literally saying “i suspect sloonei because everyone told me to.” that’s a bad post, and if my question indicates that i think it’s bad, so be it. do you think it’s a good post? like, no. stop

Why is martin a suspect? Give me the short version of the case.

the main point against him i think is his post where he votes alison for what appears to be dubious reasoning at best and a “info chop” at worst. there’s other things too discussed in the last couple of pages, but that’s the main thing i think

I genuinely don't see town!Hally suspecting Martin here. Martin is one of the easier mischops in the game and he's been really feeling like town all game. Also Hally's been shutting down Martin's arguments on Alison and they essentially sent a challenge to Martin "please, tell me in detail why Sloonei is town" that looks like listening but isn't.

i do not think martin is that towny. you, alison and nook are the only ones who strongly tr him at this point. why are you singling me out for not town reading him when nobody else except you and two other people do?

and i think his argument for alison being scum was just untrue. i explained why i thought that. if he is going to basically push for an info chop on alison for questionable reasons at best, then yeah i will call that out. he is also town reading sloonei for things like putting a post icon on his post, which is just silly. so i want him to explain why he reads sloonei town

this is just “hally doesn’t have the reads i have and the reactions i think they should have based on my reads, therefore they’re scum.” no

@Sloonei whats your read on nut? how likely do you think it is she’s a deep wolf?

@JaggedJimmyJay can answer too

Huh, so they listen to the people from finals that are more likely to call them out for not listening, but don't listen to many others.

thun, listen to me. jay and sloonei have played with nut for YEARS. of course im going to ask for their opinion on nut. it has nothing to do with this finals thing you keep saying

Like I thought Hally's recent posts were pretty good and Thunal comes in and calls them naked scum for making those posts. Admittedly both of us are confbiased probably because it serves our interests to view those posts in that manner, but I really do think Thunal was twisting and distorting Hally's posts there to suit her narrative. Also the view that scum!Hally doesn't listen and town!Hally does is pretty much bullshit, in Philosopher's Mafia (where they were town) they pushed forward with their view of the game and didn't rely as much on other people's reasoning, and in LGBT Mafia (where they were scum) they literally sat there begging townies to give them good takes and show them how townie they (the townies) are.

linki: Can any other person corroborate this claim that Hally not listening to people is a scumtell? Because that is just super wrong in my experience.

it is wrong, but i believe thun believes it

Sorry, I didn’t mean to upset you. I did absolutely take into consideration the points on Sloonei, I just somehow don’t feel like it’s right. I’m feeling less sure on Sloonei now. Sorry for misrepping you about finals, I’m pretty sure I did that to some extent since it’s all based on memory. I won’t be able to have a lot of presence near EoD.

it’s okay thun, it wouldn’t be mafia if we didn’t all get on each others nerves. im not upset at you personally but i am kinda frustrated with your play. i trust we can work it out though

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I highlighted the short answer for you above.

No, it doesn't help me solve effectively, or at least I don't think it would. But I was curious for my own sake as an independent player in the realm of Forum Mafia.

It was very interesting that I was being seen as probably aligned with Long Con but not really so much with Sloonei; My snap thought was that if he were going to do that Blind Interactions thing, he would've marked me as orange with somebody other than Long Con (such as Sloonei, of who I have moderately or lightly defended in the past).

It just feels weird that out all of the players he associated me with, he associated me strongly with a player who:

1. I have had absolutely no knowledge of prior to this game
2. Has (or had) one of the lowest post counts in the game of the living players.
3. (As far as I'm aware of) My only reason for not voting is that it's allegedly their playstyle to be like this for day 1 and etc.

I mean, seriously? I'm kind of confused/surprised by this and I would've really liked to know more about it, as per my curiosity.

I colored your block with Long Con orange, because I felt I saw a few instances in your posts where you brought his name up in a context where it didn't seem necessary. That is something I have seen a lot from mafia teammates who feel that sort of unconscious compulsion to acknowledge one another's existence, out of some need to create distance or to feel like they're creating distance. Your willingness to defer to the game at large about "playing his playstyle" struck me as a bit of a convenience.

However, given that it was the only orange block I ended up with I don't consider it super meaningful. I don't think there's a good reason to say you're not Long Con's teammate -- that's the more important conclusion.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

The game is sputtering to its second deadline. We have 42 minutes. Scream your wildest EOD desires out to the world or forever hold your peace.

[nutella]

I may be misinterpreting here, but I get the feeling that you're framing this in a negative way without consideration of the game-state circumstances. At least a few players here have mentioned that they aren't sure of their reads because it either doesn't feel right or that there's probably a deep wolf somewhere or something like that. Those players are EXPERIENCED players saying that. Is it not natural for me, a town player with only 6 games of experience, to default to some sort of move (that may or may not be out of desperation) that may be viewed as not necessarily towny?

stop doing this

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm exasperated on the matter of Sloonei. The "I don't feel like this" posts have become almost caricature, to the point that I think he'd probably offer up something more prideful than that if he was a mafioso -- and yet I am not comfortable actually relying on a read like that. I appreciate his efforts to case Alison; I have to weigh that against the fact that it is self-serving for him to go after Alison and that it could be designed to appeal to my sensibilities.

meh

[Sloonei]

[VOTE: alsion] aubergine
[VOTE: long con] aubergine
[VOTE: martin] aubergine

I don't have a strong preference among these three. I am surprised at my own Martin vote. His response to me in the big wall post of his just now struck me oddly, so it's a bit of a kneejerk/GTH vote. Maybe that's unfair to him. Idk.

If this was a typical game with only one vote, I think I would be going for Alison, but I have been absent for most of the latter part of this phase and will be absent for the remainder of it. I trust you all to pick the right one out of these three.

Thunal is town.

Sorry to be such a dud this phase. I don't like it.

[nutella]

Granted, I have only 6 games of experience so I guess my opinions may be preety worthless aside from getting Thunal town-read early on I suppose.

JESUS CHRIST

[nutella]

STOP IT MARTIN

[MartinGG99]

Page 29

Some quotes may be trimmed.

General prompt:

Imagine the collective POE pool is exhausted and the game is alive. Which one of these people, or more than one, gets your attention first?

nutella
Hally
tutuu
SPF
Thunal
Jay

If one of them is already a suspect (e.g. Alison on Thunal), ignore that player and pick a current town read.

If you're reffering to "attention" with a slight negative connotation, then:

Nutella/Hally/Jay in that order, gth.

Town read? It would always be Thunal tbh. I haven't had the slightest doubt of them being town since the beginning from my perspective (aside from the fact that early reads are early reads; I didn't just straight-up town-lock them).

I may also not tinfoil tutuu either. Her end response to my comment about being insane or not seemed super towny to me. (Something along the lines of "I don't think you're insane, you just made a bad read bud")

@everyone - here's a question that might not make sense but that i consider important to the gamestate right now:

how confident do you feel about your reads right now? how much faith do you have that your assessment of the gamestate is correct?

if possible, id like everyone to answer this

I might've missed this on the last page.

Anyways, my last reads list I gave (which was recent at the time of your post here) had each player color-coded to the position they had on my list accordingly to how confident I was in that placement.

I know this is out of left field, but I thought Martin's posting of his game notes was towny.

Is it just me or is it funny that the person who's supposedly likely aligned or has "high compatibility" with me is the first person to say this (afaik)?

I don't know if I can convince people that I'm town, and showing my rather odd notes would show that (The notes were spoiled as an image here)

Hally has already seen it and all she said (I'm paraphrasing greatly here, slight chance of misinterpretation): "I'm confused"

[JaggedJimmyJay]

For what it's worth, I don't think I have ever actually seen a new player milk the "I'm new" card as a mafioso. It has probably happened out there in the Mafia landscape somewhere.

[Sloonei]

For what it's worth, I don't think I have ever actually seen a new player milk the "I'm new" card as a mafioso. It has probably happened out there in the Mafia landscape somewhere.

I mean, sheppard kind of did.

[nutella]

Surprised Sloonei only has one vote. I still would have preferred chopping him today. Sigh.

[VOTE: long con] aubergine

[VOTE: sloonei] aubergine for the heck of it but looking like it won't matter

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Alison currently wins the tiebreaker.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[VOTE: NANOOK] aubergine

[MartinGG99]

I may be misinterpreting here, but I get the feeling that you're framing this in a negative way without consideration of the game-state circumstances. At least a few players here have mentioned that they aren't sure of their reads because it either doesn't feel right or that there's probably a deep wolf somewhere or something like that. Those players are EXPERIENCED players saying that. Is it not natural for me, a town player with only 6 games of experience, to default to some sort of move (that may or may not be out of desperation) that may be viewed as not necessarily towny?

stop doing this

Granted, I have only 6 games of experience so I guess my opinions may be preety worthless aside from getting Thunal town-read early on I suppose.

JESUS CHRIST

STOP IT MARTIN

Why shouldn't I?

I honestly don't feel like some people are properly taking it into account from my perspective.

Its honestly the only explanation I can think of when I don't know people's standards of what constitutes a "town" martin. (Ironically that's a scummy statement to make but I really don't care at this point)

If not that, then what the hell do I have to defend myself? I've expressed my honest feelings and reasons; all I EVER get is "Oh I think this is really towny" to "Nah I just think we should chop martin" or "I think this is really scummy"

To mimic your anger at me:

Spoiler: show

Excuse me but what the !@#$

But hey, maybe I'll learn something from this game. Or at least I hope so.

Or I'm incompetent. I just don't know. And that's my !@#$ing point.

Maybe, in that sense, its best that I get executed. But there's just no real benefit to it

[nutella]

Right I was going to put a vote on nanook, good call. SPF wins the tiebreaker between the three of us for grasslands so that's all good now

[nutella]

I do not think Alison should be chopped. I think she is town. I don't know that I'll convince anyone but I am not happy that she's where we ended up today.

[Thunal33]

I'm exasperated on the matter of Sloonei. The "I don't feel like this" posts have become almost caricature, to the point that I think he'd probably offer up something more prideful than that if he was a mafioso -- and yet I am not comfortable actually relying on a read like that. I appreciate his efforts to case Alison; I have to weigh that against the fact that it is self-serving for him to go after Alison and that it could be designed to appeal to my sensibilities.

meh

I feel similarly. I also feel less confident on Hally than I did before.

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

[VOTE: nutella and jay] aubergine

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[mention]Sloonei[/mention] what do you think your posts would look like in this game if you rolled a mafia role?

[Hally]

also the comparison to what i did with dya in finals is wrong, just saying. i did not actively shut down their arguments that game. i simply ignored them. this is what i’m talking about when i say you have reads and then just make up arguments based on that to justify what you feel. the thing you’re saying i did in finals that i’m also doing here is not something i actually did in finals. if anything, i was suspected that game for being too agreeable, not too argumentative

this is the segment that really struck me. They're indignant about the inaccuracy of this one point in a way that sounds "caught for the wrong reasons." The wording of it really sounds like it's coming from a perspective of "yeah I'm scum again but I promise I'm not doing the same thing I did last time I was scum, it's different, I swear"

why can it not be “hally is indignant because thun is asserting things that are demonstrably untrue”? like, “caught for the wrong reasons” is such a bad tell. any time anyone gets frustrated at accusations against them people say it’s cftwr instead of actually evaluating the accusations they’re responding to. and then it’s like a feedback loop where the response to the suspicion makes them more suspicious

i fully acknowledge that one of the weakest points of my town game is that i tend to react overly defensively to what i think are bad pushes on me, and this may have happened here. i had just woken up and was kinda grumpy/out of sorts (like buttercup lol) and checked the game and saw a massive scum case on me. so yea, it annoyed me and i responded as such

no thun, screw that. read his post. it is quite literally saying “i suspect sloonei because everyone told me to.” that’s a bad post, and if my question indicates that i think it’s bad, so be it. do you think it’s a good post? like, no. stop

more indignance and shutting thunal down. in fairness I tended to agree with hally's assessment of martin's post, but this strong assertion of "it was a bad post, end of story" feels sort of like how scum would discredit a townie that they think looks objectively suspicious to the point that they think it *should* be an easy mischop and they're legitimately disappointed if townies don't find it suspicious

the reply you quoted here was about lc’s post. and idk, it annoyed me because i felt like thun didn’t even read the post i was responding to and just jumped to “hally is bad because they think lc’s post is bad” even though thun literally scum reads lc herself. so it’s like she’s not even evaluating who im talking to and what they’re saying. it’s just “hally dislikes a post so they aren’t listening and are scum”

those are the main points but the overall tone of hally's response to thunal feels bad in a way I'm not sure I can fully articulate. part of it is also the fact they continue to hard insist thunal is town and shut down the idea of a thunderdome. idk maybe it's silly of me to suspect that and hally is just trying to genuinely express real thoughts -- a large part of me still townreads them and we've agreed/mindmelded enough that I really want to trust them (but lol look how that worked on spf in finale). I just don't like the tone with which they're shutting down the arguments as ridiculous and unfounded, but simultaneously believing that thunal believes it.



linki holy fuck people stop quoting long walls. if you're on desktop you can highlight a segment and a button pops up that quotes only that segment. if you're on mobile I don't think that works reliably but for the love of fuck find another way to respond

but i do believe thun believes it. that is my read. villagers believe in and push bad arguments all the time. and i believe thun’s arguments come from a place that is misguided but nonetheless genuine. based on what i know of her, i think they’re things she genuinely would think as town and so i town read her. i am not a player who omguses people

for context, i think in both of the last games we played together where both of us were town she got paranoid of me and began pushing me because she thought i did things that i would do as scum or wasnt out of my scum range or the like. this reminds me of that. and i town read her in spite of that both times

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

And [VOTE: LC] aubergine

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Now back to work

[nutella]

[VOTE: nutella and jay] aubergine

You gonna contribute a scum vote or nah?? Do you not care between LC and Alison?


linki
never mind

thank you

[tutuu]

tutuu goat says lc is town

[tutuu]

tutuu goat regrets not defending lc and caving in to sheep the scumreads

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I do not think Alison should be chopped. I think she is town. I don't know that I'll convince anyone but I am not happy that she's where we ended up today.

Is it that you think she seems genuine, or that you think she has made sound arguments, or both, or something else?

[nutella]

I do not think Alison should be chopped. I think she is town. I don't know that I'll convince anyone but I am not happy that she's where we ended up today.

Is it that you think she seems genuine, or that you think she has made sound arguments, or both, or something else?

Mostly the former

[tutuu]

but i dont wanna yeet alison either rofl

so i just wont get in your guys' way?

if i try to help usually it ends up bad. so at least i wont hurt if i vote

[tutuu]

i wont hurt if i dont vote*

[Hally]

@Thunal33 would you describe your concern more as:

Hally is not listening.

or

Hally is not listening to Thunal.

I'm pretty concerned with the fact that Hally isn't listening to me and that pings me the most but I'm not the only one she isn't listening to. Overall it's more of a concern of "Hally isn't listening to people with similar reads as me or people in the PoE." They're not really listening to LC either. I also dislike that the people Hally really is listening to (you and Sloonei) are the people who would be most likely to call them out for not listening.

once again, no. i am listening to the people who have experienced playing with the other people in this game. jay, sloonei, nut and lc have played with each other for years. so when they offer perspectives on each other, yes i will listen. this thing about “hally is only listening to them because they would be the ones to call hally out if they didn’t because finals yadada” is nonsense

i want to chop lc, thun. why is he a villager?

I don’t townread him, I suspect him.

ok. i suspect him too. now we’ve found common ground. lettuce eliminate lc

[tutuu]

yea 2 of my scumreads are voting alison i aint voting there boi

rip [mention]Long Con[/mention] i trust u that ur town fam

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think on some level I am assessing Alison's play in parallel to what I see from myself as a mafioso. I think she and I would have at least some similarities (e.g. making assertive logical arguments that seem on the surface reasonable enough to get by, but mask a disregard for nuance and push agenda).

[nutella]

I really don't understand how we got to a point where sloonei is not in contention. It's not like he did anything to deserve being left alone for another day.

[tutuu]

I really don't understand how we got to a point where sloonei is not in contention. It's not like he did anything to deserve being left alone for another day.

word

[tutuu]

sloonei is a member of the mafia

[nutella]

I'm glad I can vibe with tutuu on that one thing at least.

[Hally]

i see the martin wall but am not reading it rn

[nutella]

The game is sputtering to its second deadline. We have 42 minutes. Scream your wildest EOD desires out to the world or forever hold your peace.

You voted for both LC and Alison, and as such you cannot really affect the outcome anymore. Are you equally okay with each of them being the chop?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

The game is sputtering to its second deadline. We have 42 minutes. Scream your wildest EOD desires out to the world or forever hold your peace.

You voted for both LC and Alison, and as such you cannot really affect the outcome anymore. Are you equally okay with each of them being the chop?

I would prefer Alison, but I can live with Long Con.

[Hally]

I wanted to get a closer look at Alison's reads progressions. I use this kind of chart to visualize that -- the colors depict her reads [generally per my interpretations] on each player in the game over time, starting early Day 1 on the left and progressing toward the present moment on Day 2.



What's immediately apparent is the prevalence of straight lines of color in this chart. Alison's read has only "changed" on three players: Hally, Long Con, and myself. Her read on me hasn't changed since around mid-Day 1 though, and her read on Long Con has only kind of "changed" in that she has accepted him as a worthy chop. Her change on Hally was quite brief.

So I have to wonder if this is a natural expression of what [insert average expected civilian] might look like in this particular game where things have been so clouded in uncertainty. While others struggle to form and develop their reads with confidence, Alison's basically don't move. And it has left her with three suspects, two of whom she feels aren't compatible with one another.

I'm bothered, but I want to know what others think.

see, i do find this concerning in a vacuum but i think alison is more stubborn in her reads than most. like, if this were MY chart i would say to kill me immediately. but for alison idk

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I really don't understand how we got to a point where sloonei is not in contention. It's not like he did anything to deserve being left alone for another day.

This is kind of the mindset I am trying to avoid -- what he "deserves" as opposed to what he "is".

[tutuu]

I'm glad I can vibe with tutuu on that one thing at least.

vibe with me on this song sis

[nutella]

I really don't understand how we got to a point where sloonei is not in contention. It's not like he did anything to deserve being left alone for another day.

This is kind of the mindset I am trying to avoid -- what he "deserves" as opposed to what he "is".

I think you're misinterpreting what I meant there. I think he is mafia and we had him caught and let him go for absolutely no reason.

[nutella]

[mention]tutuu[/mention] there is a youtube tag in the post editor so the video will embed so i dont have to click to see what it is lol