King of the Hill Mafia

[Alison]

@staypositivefriend @Creature @Alison give me full reads lists in 12h-16h if i don’t see them i will ask again

Porscha, Creature, Neon, Lilypetal, SPF, Rondo are my immediate POE. I believe there is very likely at least 2 wolves in this group. If I had to make a cut from the POE it would probably be Neon.

arogame, Seanzie, Boquise are town leans.

lucy and Mac are strong townreads.

I'm not gonna explain everyone especially since I've already talked about some of these reads ad nauseam. I'll let you know if anything changes as a result of my catchup, and if you want specific elaboration on any of these, let me know.

I forgot Nanook here. He's a town lean mostly for sniping me at the last second. If he was scum I think he just parks on me and either gets an Alison exe over a falcon one (which, no offense to falcon, is a lot worse for town, and leads to falcon dying D2 anyway), or if town fucks up enough an accountability-free tied vote. Both are worse outcomes than a falcon exe and he voluntarily switched when he didn't have to.

[Alison]

arogame and Boquise's posting after coming back to the thread is pretty townie.

My confidence in my POE grows.

@Boquise I think you are giving too much credit to Porscha for her entitled and passive-aggressive attitude. It feels similar to how you got snowed by Rondo in Halvorsen Ridge because of the way he pushed you - it is easier to fake than you think and I know you haven't seen scum do it before but I have. You don't have to listen to this now, but consider this a personal part of my legacy directed at you and reconsider after my flip.

[Alison]

@Seanzie My dying command is for you to get off your Boquise/Mac tunnels and vote the actual wolves. Same thing as my aside to Boquise above, consider this a personal part of my legacy directed at you because I believe you are barking up the wrong tree.

[Alison]

@staypositivefriend One of my biggest gripes with you is that I find it difficult to identify teams that would have a compelling reason to kill Jack without you in them. I am town and I will flip today. Mac is town and both you and I agree on this. Given this information, who would you suggest to be a candidate for teams that NK Jack N1 other than you?

Also I would like reads on Creature and Porscha since I believe they are most likely to be teamed with you.

[Alison]

@Lilypetal You have made an objectively anti-town move EOD1. You have claimed this is part of your emotional playstyle and that you made that decision in the heat of the moment ignoring lucy's decisions. You have also claimed that you feel very unconfident in your own reads and ideas and have spent much of the game following the lead of players like SPF. The problem is that I have major suspicions on SPF and so it would be an extremely bad idea for you to follow her.

So here is my proposal for your redemption arc to prove that you are town. Since you made your anti-town move against lucy's orders and I think lucy is town, you will become lucy's slave for the rest of the game. You can still have your own reads, pushes, etc., but if lucy commands you to vote a certain way or if she feels strongly about a certain read, I want you to follow what she does. I believe that lucy is extremely likely to be town and extremely likely to have better reads than you even if you are town. Therefore it is purely +EV for you to chain your vote to lucy's and since you described yourself as masons with her I don't think you'll have a hard time following that rule.

If you want it to be someone else other than lucy, you can propose a different candidate, but the underlying principle is that you chaining your vote to someone who is townie and has good reads minimizes my worry that you are a wolf (because it would be suicidal to throw away a wolf vote to doublevote a townie) or that you will make further anti-town decisions if you are town (because lucy or whoever can stop you from doing stuff like that again). I think if you are town you should feel no issues with following this principle given your stated mentality and attitude towards this game. The alternative is that you get thrown in bottom POE forever after I die and will eventually be shrug exed at some point.

[Lilypetal]

@Lilypetal You have made an objectively anti-town move EOD1. You have claimed this is part of your emotional playstyle and that you made that decision in the heat of the moment ignoring lucy's decisions. You have also claimed that you feel very unconfident in your own reads and ideas and have spent much of the game following the lead of players like SPF. The problem is that I have major suspicions on SPF and so it would be an extremely bad idea for you to follow her.

So here is my proposal for your redemption arc to prove that you are town. Since you made your anti-town move against lucy's orders and I think lucy is town, you will become lucy's slave for the rest of the game. You can still have your own reads, pushes, etc., but if lucy commands you to vote a certain way or if she feels strongly about a certain read, I want you to follow what she does. I believe that lucy is extremely likely to be town and extremely likely to have better reads than you even if you are town. Therefore it is purely +EV for you to chain your vote to lucy's and since you described yourself as masons with her I don't think you'll have a hard time following that rule.

If you want it to be someone else other than lucy, you can propose a different candidate, but the underlying principle is that you chaining your vote to someone who is townie and has good reads minimizes my worry that you are a wolf (because it would be suicidal to throw away a wolf vote to doublevote a townie) or that you will make further anti-town decisions if you are town (because lucy or whoever can stop you from doing stuff like that again). I think if you are town you should feel no issues with following this principle given your stated mentality and attitude towards this game. The alternative is that you get thrown in bottom POE forever after I die and will eventually be shrug exed at some point.

No one owns me fuck off

[Alison]

Cool. Everyone else, don't let Lilypetal out of your POE for the rest of the game.

[Lilypetal]

If I am to be poe'd for a bad choice then so be it. I will play the game how I want and to the best of my ability and no one will control me. If I am chopped then I will work hard to solve the game using the unique knowledge I have of my alignment before the chop happens.

[Lilypetal]

I find it highly insulting that you even think lucy's "orders" had any sway over me. That's insane.

[Alison]

It is noted that you are prioritizing your pride over the play that benefits town. I don't think you're that egotistical a player nor do I think that you are the kind of player who would consider being instructed to sheep someone to be a great blow. I think there is a good likelihood that you are simply making it up to wriggle out of being forced to follow lucy. If I am wrong about any of Porscha/Creature/SPF, look no further than Lilypetal for the missing wolf.

On an unrelated note: Lilypetal and @Neon, I want you to quote the posts from falcon that made you think he was an "obvious townie" at EOD. I have re-read his EOD and I do not think he was close to locktown. He wasn't my top candidate for exe but he certainly wasn't a blazing beacon of townieness. I would like you to show me where he was obvtown since both of you are pushing that narrative as an explanation for your EOD movements.

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Sighs

[Lilypetal]

Sorry my massive burgeoning ego makes me not want to be someone's "slave" ... Really unreasonable of me :/

[Alison]

We can use the word sheep if it makes you feel more uncomfortable. You didn't have any issues sheeping SPF on me, did you?

[Alison]

Feel more comfortable*, not more uncomfortable

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

I mean sheeping is a legit and often good way to play but

It certainly isn't mandatory obviously, and some of the arguments being made here are kinda gross

I have immense distaste

[Alison]

I mean sheeping is a legit and often good way to play but

It certainly isn't mandatory obviously, and some of the arguments being made here are kinda gross

I have immense distaste

She's already said she's not gonna do it anyway. You still have her in your POE yes? If so then I don't care.

[Lilypetal]

I will sheep people that I trust when I want to.

[Alison]

I will sheep people that I trust when I want to.

Your read on arogame? I read your ISO and you didn't have a read on him, then proceeded to have a protracted back and forth with him... did that conversation give you a read in any way?

[Alison]

I am still waiting on your explanation of why falcon was an obvious town at EOD as well.

[Lilypetal]

I will sheep people that I trust when I want to.

Your read on arogame? I read your ISO and you didn't have a read on him, then proceeded to have a protracted back and forth with him... did that conversation give you a read in any way?

Idk. I need to give myself a bit and then look at him more objectively

[arogame123]

Hmmm, Alison self-voting when she did is interesting considering how some people are still voting elsewhere. It's like the reverse psychology of not wanting to vote there if she is mafia lol. If she is town tho, I can also understand her doing this, though I would rather her fight onto other wagons if that's the case.

I did see your reply that you'd kill the cw and that makes sense.

I saw your earlier read on putting SPF in POE, and I am a tad confused, because from my understanding, your only suspicion on her is due to the night kill and if you are town, from ur pov, SPF is against killing u today despite u being the cw. So idk if that feeds into your read.

But also, I don't think Creature and SPF make sense as w/w just off gut, based on the way Creature was echoing the tr's that SPF and vice versa. It felt like they had some genial paranoia against each other which I don't think is w/w.

I will say tho if you are town, I will carry your will tomorrow if I am alive and turbo Porscha as I think if you are town, it's more likely that mafia are on your wagon in a v/v scenario.

Also, I was thinking about it, but in a world where wagons are v/v, I am not sure if Lily's action makes much sense as mafia the more I thought about it, since it would be weird to move last second when she can just stay on there without making much noise. I remember I made a similar read with Jmwjmw in regards to Axis in champs and those wagons were v/v day 1 and Jmwjmw late move switched to the opposing wagon and he was town as well.

So I think if you are town, Lily might also prolly be town purely off the late switch.

I'll look at Porscha first and then Rondo if you are town. That would make the most sense to me.

Lmk what u think about my takes above.

[arogame123]

I mean sheeping is a legit and often good way to play but

It certainly isn't mandatory obviously, and some of the arguments being made here are kinda gross

I have immense distaste

which arguments do you view as gross rn?

[Alison]

I will sheep people that I trust when I want to.

Your read on arogame? I read your ISO and you didn't have a read on him, then proceeded to have a protracted back and forth with him... did that conversation give you a read in any way?

Idk. I need to give myself a bit and then look at him more objectively

Why did you think falcon was obvtown at EOD1 then?

[Lilypetal]

You guys are dumb, I'm town

Oh well, it's been a slice.


Alison, Mac, Boq


Legacy.



Peace out homies, and good luck town. I now must make supper

this was the entirety of his eod so this is all we could be talking about. if you don't think it's towny that's fine but it resonated with me

[arogame123]

I expressed it. I valued spf's opinion maybe out of fear maybe out of respect and didn't vote on Alison. I sheeped mac on Falcon. I didn't sheep boq lol like I said my vote swap wasn't me trying to kill porscha..

I think Alison is fine. I was a bit sus day 1 but like spf said light sus doesn't cut it u need an argument and I didn't have one. I'm not sure how you're misunderstanding me

Ok so you expressed interest in SPF’s opinion onto not voting Alison fine. You sheeped Mac on Falcon fine. You thought Falcon was obvious town, fine.

I know you know your vote wasn’t trying to kill Porscha but I said earlier, that your vote not only did it make us potentially lose a lynch, from your POV, if you thought more confidently about Falcon being “obv town” why didn’t you want to save Falcon then? Like that’s what I’m trying to understand now then if that makes sense. Like either A you stay on Falcon with the sheep on Mac, but B if you thought falcon was “obv town” why didn’t you attempt to save him then?

Like did you want to save him by tying wagons and make us lose a ml? Like that’s the only thing I can see and if that was your intentions, as bad as that is, I can sort of empathise with that.

Hopefully that makes more sense.

It wasn't about saving him. It was about not being one to bury him. You realize in my pov it's a lose-lose, right? Falcon is town posting right before death. If I vote Alison I am morally executed for killing a good player day 1. I just said fuck it I'll walk my own path and voted off wagons.

I didn't think we would lose an elim because I didn't do it last second. It was like 1-2 mins before with plenty of people active in thread and as you saw we did get the elim. What ifs don't rly matter because I didn't cost us the elim. If I did then fuck I suck but I didn't. I suck anyway but I did the thing I wanted to do in the end

Ok, so my question then is, even if you stayed on Falcon, why were you worried people would push you or feel the way they did about you?

Like yes, I can understand it’s a lose-lose situation from your POV and that makes more sense after your previous statements. But were you worried of how you were perceived if you kept your vote on Falcon and he died?

By walking your own paths, was your goal to dissociate yourself from the wagons coming into today?

And I can’t really look at vote counts or time stamps. I was referring to Lucy’s vote count posts. So if that were the case of it being 1-2 min, then that’s one thing that has less of an impact.

no lol i voted off wagon in a spur of the moment decision saw he flipped town and went YEP I WAS RIGHT then thought about it after and went god people are gonna push me for this arent they

like if im a wolf explain why I don't just sit on the falcon wagon and blame mac when he flips town

Wait so if you thought “god people are gonna push me for this aren’t they.” Why are you so surprised for me finding what you did EOD weird? I feel like I’m hearing you out and haven’t misinterpreted or misrepresented you at all and I’m hearing you at lol.

And tbh, I couldn’t really answer that because you could have done that as mafia as well, that’s true. But at the same time, if Mac is town, like I believe, you probably wouldn’t feel as confident pushing Mac and would realize that he might omgus you back and you would want to refrain from being in the spotlight. Which oddly enough saying this out loud, you kind of put urself in the spotlight with ur movement of votes which does make me think at the same time, would mafia Lily want to put this attention on her? But it’s all somewhat wifom but yea, those are my spew of thoughts lol

im not surprised at that i'm surprised at you not believing my explanations but yeah

Oh, I believe your explanations, but I am just trying to analyze if it lines up or makes sense from a t!Lily or w!Lily based on the gamestate

[Alison]

You guys are dumb, I'm town

Oh well, it's been a slice.


Alison, Mac, Boq


Legacy.



Peace out homies, and good luck town. I now must make supper

this was the entirety of his eod so this is all we could be talking about. if you don't think it's towny that's fine but it resonated with me

What about it resonated with you? "You guys are dumb, I'm town" has to be one of the most common things I've seen said, by players of either alignment imminently before their death. His legacy is just a restatement of his old reads... what exactly did you think was townie about it?

[arogame123]

Some not w/w thoughts

Alison/Porscha
SPF/Rondo
SPF/Creature
Alison/Mac
Mac/Creature
Boq/Seanzie

lmk if I am missing any other obv ones and if you disagree with any of these.

[Lilypetal]

You guys are dumb, I'm town

Oh well, it's been a slice.


Alison, Mac, Boq


Legacy.



Peace out homies, and good luck town. I now must make supper

this was the entirety of his eod so this is all we could be talking about. if you don't think it's towny that's fine but it resonated with me

What about it resonated with you? "You guys are dumb, I'm town" has to be one of the most common things I've seen said, by players of either alignment imminently before their death. His legacy is just a restatement of his old reads... what exactly did you think was townie about it?

if im being honest with u it's the casual nature of his legacy post. it just seemed like a towny being day 1 MLed. reminded me of other games

[Alison]

I see.

[robyn]

I mean sheeping is a legit and often good way to play but

It certainly isn't mandatory obviously, and some of the arguments being made here are kinda gross

I have immense distaste

which arguments do you view as gross rn?

read the lily post by alison again

[MacDougall]

I think lily is being reasonable. I was mighty tempted to unvote Falcon as well.

[Alison]

I've changed my mind, Lily is maybe actually town. I put immense pressure on her to conform to what I said and I think it would probably be psychologically easier as mafia to just agree to get me off her back and then NK lucy or simply trust that the rest of town will not force her to sheep lucy. I actually kinda see where she's coming from with the take on falcon as well because I can't remember mafia being casual at being voted out off the top of my head but I can remember townies doing it a couple of times.

[robyn]

if alison flips town
turbo creature
then only 1 more wolf on alison and 1 wolf on falcon

[arogame123]

Seanzie is playing in an extremely limited way. Scum is usually seen casting a wide net so if their preferred misyeet occurs, they are not left with zero reads. However scum CAN play like this and I have seen it happen. I am still leaning to Seanzie being town. Mostly because he is stubbornly informing everyone that he is indeed still in his scum range. It feels like it is coming from a pov where you are irritated that people are looking down on your scum game/clearing you too easily (thus underestimating you) and this is something an actual wolf WANTS town to do. Whereas a town player has a more holistic mindset where this reaction can stem from.

I was reading over some of Seanzie's town games and he is def more stubborn with his pushes and usually picks a few targets like 1 or 2 and just continues to push on them without looking much outside. It's like a deer with headlights and it seems very similar this game. Also, I noticed some similar tone with his condescendingness like he showed in this game with his response to Mac at EoD with "Oooh, I want towncred on myself" and it meta wise it seems similar based off the games I perused. SPF mentioned that she got powerwolf vibes from Seanzie, but I disagree as Seanzie as mafia was more laid back and kind of a coaster than an aggressor based off what I read in a couple of his mafia games. I have been burned by these comparison in games *cough* Wisp *cough*, but so far his gameplay and tone have seen very similar to his town games where he picks a target and goes after them and his condescending tone is similar to his town games. Just an observation I had.

[Alison]

I think lily is being reasonable. I was mighty tempted to unvote Falcon as well.

I still think the Falcon unvote made no sense but I can believe she isn't the kind of player to know or care about game theory and just go with her gut. It is still anti town and I would still hold her accountable for it if she is around in endgame but she can move out of my immediate suspects.

Which leaves me feeling even more confidently that Porscha/Creature/SPF is it.

[arogame123]

if alison flips town
turbo creature
then only 1 more wolf on alison and 1 wolf on falcon

I disagree, Porscha should be turboed after. But we will get there when we get there depending what happens.

[Alison]

if alison flips town
turbo creature
then only 1 more wolf on alison and 1 wolf on falcon

I am coming to a view that it is nearly impossible for there not to be 2 wolves in Porscha Creature SPF. I would recommend you simply turbo these three upon my death and then either the game ends or you fish for the third using associatives from the flips in those three.

[arogame123]

I believe if wagons are v/v, there are likely more mafia voters on Alison than not, esp with the jack night kill as well, that might set the narrative for an Alison kill today if Alison is town.

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

I mean sheeping is a legit and often good way to play but

It certainly isn't mandatory obviously, and some of the arguments being made here are kinda gross

I have immense distaste

which arguments do you view as gross rn?

I dont think its gonna be productive to talk about it more

[Alison]

The person I am most likely misclearing is Seanzie especially since he is townclearing Creature. I am currently townreading him because he treated Boq in a very hostile way D1 that I find characteristic of his town play and not of his scum play. I also think he is needlessly setting himself up to look like a fool by pushing Alison/Mac partners D2 - he doesn't have to push that line to get me over so I don't see how that benefits scum Seanzie. But maybe I am wrong and his scum range is bigger than I thought. Do your due diligence on Seanzie before clearing him especially if Creature flips scum.

[Alison]

I believe if wagons are v/v, there are likely more mafia voters on Alison than not, esp with the jack night kill as well, that might set the narrative for an Alison kill today if Alison is town.

I agree. I wouldn't be surprised if 2/3 mafia are on me yesterday.

Which is maybe the actual strongest argument against my Porscha/Creature/SPF solve. Hmm.

[arogame123]

I mean sheeping is a legit and often good way to play but

It certainly isn't mandatory obviously, and some of the arguments being made here are kinda gross

I have immense distaste

which arguments do you view as gross rn?

read the lily post by alison again

oh that is very cringe...

Unironically, Lily's response was kinda townie that "I am free to do what I want and believe in"

And the whole "if I am in POE thing I will give a solve to help out as my legacy" feels townie

[arogame123]

I believe if wagons are v/v, there are likely more mafia voters on Alison than not, esp with the jack night kill as well, that might set the narrative for an Alison kill today if Alison is town.

I agree. I wouldn't be surprised if 2/3 mafia are on me yesterday.

Which is maybe the actual strongest argument against my Porscha/Creature/SPF solve. Hmm.

wait why? Creature and SPF voted on Falcon.

I think that would be the exact opposite of what I was saying lol

[arogame123]

I mean sheeping is a legit and often good way to play but

It certainly isn't mandatory obviously, and some of the arguments being made here are kinda gross

I have immense distaste

which arguments do you view as gross rn?

I dont think its gonna be productive to talk about it more

yea, I realized which one Lucy was telling me about...

[Alison]

I don't think the mafia triple stacked. They had no incentive to do anything except sit back and eat popcorn when the wagons narrowed to Alison/Falcon. Also I cannot find any reasonable combination of 3 people that all voted the same wagon and also would kill Jack.

2 on one wagon, 1 on the other. My wagon is way scummier and it also benefits mafia more to kill me D1, so my best guess is that there's 2 on me and 1 on Falcon.

[Alison]

I mean sheeping is a legit and often good way to play but

It certainly isn't mandatory obviously, and some of the arguments being made here are kinda gross

I have immense distaste

which arguments do you view as gross rn?

read the lily post by alison again

oh that is very cringe...

Unironically, Lily's response was kinda townie that "I am free to do what I want and believe in"

And the whole "if I am in POE thing I will give a solve to help out as my legacy" feels townie

It's not cringe at all people just value their pride over optimal play and I don't.

It doesn't matter, it helped me find Lily as town anyway.

[MacDougall]

The person I am most likely misclearing is Seanzie especially since he is townclearing Creature. I am currently townreading him because he treated Boq in a very hostile way D1 that I find characteristic of his town play and not of his scum play. I also think he is needlessly setting himself up to look like a fool by pushing Alison/Mac partners D2 - he doesn't have to push that line to get me over so I don't see how that benefits scum Seanzie. But maybe I am wrong and his scum range is bigger than I thought. Do your due diligence on Seanzie before clearing him especially if Creature flips scum.

I don't think Seanzie/Creature are viable. One of the least viable pairings in the game. Seanzie has been townreading Creature and Creature has been very uncomfortable with him doing so, fighting him over it and Seanzie has just been doubling down on the townread through it. It'd be a very unusual w/w dynamic. There are specific context queues to it that make it moreso such as when Seanzie was like "well if it helps this just makes me even more sure you're town" when Creature was foiling Seanzie trying yo pocket him.

[Alison]

I believe if wagons are v/v, there are likely more mafia voters on Alison than not, esp with the jack night kill as well, that might set the narrative for an Alison kill today if Alison is town.

I agree. I wouldn't be surprised if 2/3 mafia are on me yesterday.

Which is maybe the actual strongest argument against my Porscha/Creature/SPF solve. Hmm.

wait why? Creature and SPF voted on Falcon.

I think that would be the exact opposite of what I was saying lol

Correct. I agree with you that it is more likely that 2 mafia voted me. If I am right then the team isn't exactly Porscha/Creature/SPF, as that team would have only 1 mafia on me.

So either my calculation on the wagonomics is wrong or it isn't exactly those 3. That is what I am saying.

[arogame123]

I don't think the mafia triple stacked. They had no incentive to do anything except sit back and eat popcorn when the wagons narrowed to Alison/Falcon. Also I cannot find any reasonable combination of 3 people that all voted the same wagon and also would kill Jack.

2 on one wagon, 1 on the other. My wagon is way scummier and it also benefits mafia more to kill me D1, so my best guess is that there's 2 on me and 1 on Falcon.

Yea, so if you are town, I was thinking Porscha/Ronda/+1

Kind of where I am at, if you are town, I think Lily is likely town based off her vote yesterday which would make less sense for her to do if you are town. Kind of brought up that analysis in a comparison to a champs game I was in.

[Alison]

The person I am most likely misclearing is Seanzie especially since he is townclearing Creature. I am currently townreading him because he treated Boq in a very hostile way D1 that I find characteristic of his town play and not of his scum play. I also think he is needlessly setting himself up to look like a fool by pushing Alison/Mac partners D2 - he doesn't have to push that line to get me over so I don't see how that benefits scum Seanzie. But maybe I am wrong and his scum range is bigger than I thought. Do your due diligence on Seanzie before clearing him especially if Creature flips scum.

I don't think Seanzie/Creature are viable. One of the least viable pairings in the game. Seanzie has been townreading Creature and Creature has been very uncomfortable with him doing so, fighting him over it and Seanzie has just been doubling down on the townread through it. It'd be a very unusual w/w dynamic. There are specific context queues to it that make it moreso such as when Seanzie was like "well if it helps this just makes me even more sure you're town" when Creature was foiling Seanzie trying yo pocket him.

That is a good point actually. I agree with you having read this.