Anyone read House of Leaves?

[bea]

to clear up that last comment (I was getting excited to post lol) -

I could see the interviews happening for real if D. was a more established writer. But as far as I know this is his first (only?) novel.

[Mongoose]

I'm having a little trouble with what speculative fiction means. It just means alternative universe kinda right? I'm trying to learn all the terminology, but basically people live in these enclaves and don't interact with the outside world except once every 1, 10, 100, or 1000 years, dependent on their sect? And instead of religion, it's more of an intellectual commune. And there are all these rites and holidays and stuff. Like one where they extract a member to go out and share and help develop the secular world.

Is that kinda right? Also it seems like Erasmus is the protag, but I'm not sure.

[thellama73]

I'm having a little trouble with what speculative fiction means. It just means alternative universe kinda right? I'm trying to learn all the terminology, but basically people live in these enclaves and don't interact with the outside world except once every 1, 10, 100, or 1000 years, dependent on their sect? And instead of religion, it's more of an intellectual commune. And there are all these rites and holidays and stuff. Like one where they extract a member to go out and share and help develop the secular world.

Is that kinda right? Also it seems like Erasmus is the protag, but I'm not sure.

All that is right. Speculative fiction is a catch all term for science fiction/fantasy/horror or any type of fiction that imagines things that are not real.

I quite like the idea of the isolated communities devoted to intellectualism, sort of like a university except it lasts longer and there is less contact with the outside world. The rituals (called "auts") are a very interesting part of it, being run with different bell patterns and having different meanings. The one you refer to of being called back into the outside world is called Voco, clearly derived from the Latin Vocare, to call.

Here is the first discussion question I wrote down: How does Stephenson’s use of invented lexicon contribute to the narrative?

[Mongoose]

I am still marinating upon your question, llama. I got bogged down by analyzing Cloud Atlas tonight. It reminds me a bit of Darren Aronofsky's The Fountain, which is a good thing, for me anyway.

Have any of y'all read Cloud Atlas?

[A Person]

Have any of y'all read Cloud Atlas?

I keep meaning to but I never read far enough to get into it, I was looking for something to do tonight so maybe I'll try again. I really liked the movie, though.

[Mongoose]

Have any of y'all read Cloud Atlas?

I keep meaning to but I never read far enough to get into it, I was looking for something to do tonight so maybe I'll try again. I really liked the movie, though.

We should do that next in Mafia Book Club! Wanna read it with me?

Also, does anyone want to read Jonathan Franzen's The Corrections at roughly the same time? This is going to be quite teh bonding experience, if you do. You can only read a Franzen novel for the first time once (well obv, but you know what I mean), so this is going to be very special.

[A Person]

Have any of y'all read Cloud Atlas?

I keep meaning to but I never read far enough to get into it, I was looking for something to do tonight so maybe I'll try again. I really liked the movie, though.

We should do that next in Mafia Book Club! Wanna read it with me?

Also, does anyone want to read Jonathan Franzen's The Corrections at roughly the same time? This is going to be quite teh bonding experience, if you do. You can only read a Franzen novel for the first time once (well obv, but you know what I mean), so this is going to be very special.

I could try to do that, I am much like vomps in my reading habits. It may give me some motivation to do so if others are reading it too.

[Mongoose]

Have any of y'all read Cloud Atlas?

I keep meaning to but I never read far enough to get into it, I was looking for something to do tonight so maybe I'll try again. I really liked the movie, though.

We should do that next in Mafia Book Club! Wanna read it with me?

Also, does anyone want to read Jonathan Franzen's The Corrections at roughly the same time? This is going to be quite teh bonding experience, if you do. You can only read a Franzen novel for the first time once (well obv, but you know what I mean), so this is going to be very special.

I could try to do that, I am much like vomps in my reading habits. It may give me some motivation to do so if others are reading it too.

YES! You've made me a happy mongoose, Matt.

[A Person]

[bea]

I would be ok with re-reading The Corrections. Is good stuff!

[Mongoose]

I would be ok with re-reading The Corrections. Is good stuff!

Yay! As soon as I finish Anathem with Logan. Kindle says I am already 1% through so it shouldn't take long at all

[Lizzy]

Have any of y'all read Cloud Atlas?

I keep meaning to but I never read far enough to get into it, I was looking for something to do tonight so maybe I'll try again. I really liked the movie, though.

We should do that next in Mafia Book Club! Wanna read it with me?

Also, does anyone want to read Jonathan Franzen's The Corrections at roughly the same time? This is going to be quite teh bonding experience, if you do. You can only read a Franzen novel for the first time once (well obv, but you know what I mean), so this is going to be very special.

I could try to do that, I am much like vomps in my reading habits. It may give me some motivation to do so if others are reading it too.

I might join you guys for Cloud Atlas, but seeing how awfully slowly I'm reading The Etruscan, it might take a while. I really don't understand why it's taking me so long and why I'm basically dreading to pick it up to finish two darn last chapters. :\

[Vompatti]

I read Cloud Atlas in Finnish butt I only read the parts I found the most interesting and browsed through the rest (in a non-linear order).

[A Person]

Have any of y'all read Cloud Atlas?

I keep meaning to but I never read far enough to get into it, I was looking for something to do tonight so maybe I'll try again. I really liked the movie, though.

We should do that next in Mafia Book Club! Wanna read it with me?

Also, does anyone want to read Jonathan Franzen's The Corrections at roughly the same time? This is going to be quite teh bonding experience, if you do. You can only read a Franzen novel for the first time once (well obv, but you know what I mean), so this is going to be very special.

I could try to do that, I am much like vomps in my reading habits. It may give me some motivation to do so if others are reading it too.

I might join you guys for Cloud Atlas, but seeing how awfully slowly I'm reading The Etruscan, it might take a while. I really don't understand why it's taking me so long and why I'm basically dreading to pick it up to finish two darn last chapters. :\

You could read the last page to see if it's worth reading the two chapters leading up to it.

[Mongoose]

I'm having a little trouble with what speculative fiction means. It just means alternative universe kinda right? I'm trying to learn all the terminology, but basically people live in these enclaves and don't interact with the outside world except once every 1, 10, 100, or 1000 years, dependent on their sect? And instead of religion, it's more of an intellectual commune. And there are all these rites and holidays and stuff. Like one where they extract a member to go out and share and help develop the secular world.

Is that kinda right? Also it seems like Erasmus is the protag, but I'm not sure.

All that is right. Speculative fiction is a catch all term for science fiction/fantasy/horror or any type of fiction that imagines things that are not real.

I quite like the idea of the isolated communities devoted to intellectualism, sort of like a university except it lasts longer and there is less contact with the outside world. The rituals (called "auts") are a very interesting part of it, being run with different bell patterns and having different meanings. The one you refer to of being called back into the outside world is called Voco, clearly derived from the Latin Vocare, to call.

Here is the first discussion question I wrote down: How does Stephenson’s use of invented lexicon contribute to the narrative?

I am so glad I finished watching Cloud Atlas before I responded to this, because it helped me get my thoughts in order. Some people are feelers, and some are thinkers. I'm the latter and I'm always up in my own head. I hope I'm translating this from Mongoolian into English acceptably.

The invented lexicon is useful in many ways. Language evolves greatly in a period of 200 years. We can read and understand documents from the American Revolution, but some of the words are spelled differently or the syntax is different or it sounds more or less formal. Shakespearean language can be trying for those of us not scholars in the same, but you can generally make out what's going on. However, looking at Middle English and beyond, you can't make all of it out or maybe even half. And forget Old English or Occitan.

That's what bothers me about films and books that show the future. There's no way we would be able to communicate with our progeny 500 years from now. Think of just how radically different the accents alone would be.
The language would evolve so much in that amount of time that we might not even be able to understand them at all. I don't know if English will evolve or devolve in the next 500 years, but with acronyms on the rise and misspellings of words to save space becoming more acceptably, you can guess which guess I'd make.

Invented lexicon works for this environment because it's not our environment. This is not our collective experience. We don't have these sorts of communes, so why not give them an original name? Instead of calling them rites, call them auts.

JK Rowling made up a lot of her own lexicon to propel her narrative but the words were often derived from French or Latin, so they made sense. I feel like Stephenson is doing the same thing here. The author doesn't want us to feel too comfortable in this new world; it's not something we could experience in our own world in the coming years, so he sets us apart from it by using foreign and alien words for ideas that are foreign and alien to us.

Why do you think he used the invented lexicon?

[thellama73]

The invented lexicon is useful in many ways. Language evolves greatly in a period of 200 years. We can read and understand documents from the American Revolution, but some of the words are spelled differently or the syntax is different or it sounds more or less formal. Shakespearean language can be trying for those of us not scholars in the same, but you can generally make out what's going on. However, looking at Middle English and beyond, you can't make all of it out or maybe even half. And forget Old English or Occitan.

That's what bothers me about films and books that show the future. There's no way we would be able to communicate with our progeny 500 years from now. Think of just how radically different the accents alone would be.
The language would evolve so much in that amount of time that we might not even be able to understand them at all. I don't know if English will evolve or devolve in the next 500 years, but with acronyms on the rise and misspellings of words to save space becoming more acceptably, you can guess which guess I'd make.

Invented lexicon works for this environment because it's not our environment. This is not our collective experience. We don't have these sorts of communes, so why not give them an original name? Instead of calling them rites, call them auts.

JK Rowling made up a lot of her own lexicon to propel her narrative but the words were often derived from French or Latin, so they made sense. I feel like Stephenson is doing the same thing here. The author doesn't want us to feel too comfortable in this new world; it's not something we could experience in our own world in the coming years, so he sets us apart from it by using foreign and alien words for ideas that are foreign and alien to us.

Why do you think he used the invented lexicon?

Do you think this book is set in the Future? The level of technology seems reasonably similar to our own. I think it's just an alternate universe.

I disagree with you about language evolution. Ever since the invention of the printing press in the 15th century, the rate of change of English has been slowing. This is because we now have a way to check ourselves against the past. Almost everyone has heard some Shakespeare in their lives, so it remains familiar to us. Even if we don't talk like that, we can understand it. I think we will still be able to understand it in five hundred years.

Look at the changes from Beowulf to Chaucer. Mutually unintelligible. Then look at Chaucer to Milton, about 200 years later. Different, but they would have been able to understand one another. The look at Milton to anything from the mid-nineteenth century, another 200 years. Pretty much the same language. Now that we are all communicating with people all over the world on the internet and reading books from 500 years ago, I doubt whether language will ever truly change in the way it did when communities were isolated from each other for hundreds of years at a time.

As something of a language buff, I really like that Stephenson (and Rowling) keep their words grounded in Indo-European roots rather than just making up words. It makes comprehension so much easier. Reading A Clockwork Orange is an entirely different experience when you have studied a bit of Russian.

I think Stephenson used the new lexicon for a couple of reasons. Mainly, to give a sense of novelty to things that would otherwise sound boring and familiar. Using words like "aut" instead of ritual and and "avout" instead of monk, for example, keeps usas readers from going "oh, yeah, a story about monks, I get it."
Second, he needs new words to express new concepts, usually the melding of two ideas into one. "Anathem" is an anthem that anathematizes someone. An "upsight" is an insight into a higher truth. It also helps make the world he has built seem richer, since he has crafted a historical etymology for many of these words.

[Mongoose]

I definitely thought it was about immersion, and we said some of the same things about new concepts, but don't you think English might devolve beyond our understand in 500 years?

RE: Your question as to whether or not this is modern times. It seems pretty parallel to us, but I don't think it matters how much it matches up with our own timeline because I don't picture it as earth at all. It could have been happening when the earth was still in the Triassic or it could be happening 10,000 years in the future. I guess I'm saying its relevance to earth's developments seems completely insignificant since there's no correlation (so far in the book anyway) to earth at all.

[thellama73]

I definitely thought it was about immersion, and we said some of the same things about new concepts, but don't you think English might devolve beyond our understand in 500 years?

Barring some kind of societal collapse, I think it's probable that we wouldn't be able to understand them, but improbable that they wouldn't be able to understand us, or at least read our writing.

[Mongoose]

I definitely thought it was about immersion, and we said some of the same things about new concepts, but don't you think English might devolve beyond our understand in 500 years?

Barring some kind of societal collapse, I think it's probable that we wouldn't be able to understand them, but improbable that they wouldn't be able to understand us, or at least read our writing.

Here's an example of why I don't think we will be able to understand future generations (although I like your idea that they will be able to understand us).

My sister is 16.

This was a recent facebook status of hers: "HMU or LMS if u wanna kik me. YOLO!"

I had to perform web searches for many things in that statement.

[thellama73]

I definitely thought it was about immersion, and we said some of the same things about new concepts, but don't you think English might devolve beyond our understand in 500 years?

Barring some kind of societal collapse, I think it's probable that we wouldn't be able to understand them, but improbable that they wouldn't be able to understand us, or at least read our writing.

Here's an example of why I don't think we will be able to understand future generations (although I like your idea that they will be able to understand us).

My sister is 16.

This was a recent facebook status of hers: "HMU or LMS if u wanna kik me. YOLO!"

I had to perform web searches for many things in that statement.

That's hilarious. The only thing I understood was YOLO. But that's slang. Slang is obviously gonna change a lot. Formal writing or speech remains much the same as it was 200 years ago.

[Mongoose]

Question:

How does Anathem mirror more traditional coming-of-age dramas?

Edited to add: I am about 65% done with the novel.

[thellama73]

I'm about 630 pages in. I fully expect you to beat me to the end. Truthfully, I have found it much less interesting after they left the Math.

[bea]

I finally finished house of leaves a few days ago.

[Mongoose]

Bea - What did you think of it?
Logan - You may not beat me as I had to put Anathem down for a few days because I had library books I need to read and return. I think we are in about the same spot!

[bea]

I enjoyed it a lot. I'm not sure I could read a bunch of books written like that but it was an interesting experiment with voice, visual layout and style as well as fact vs fiction, sanity v madness. It had a bunch going on. Trying to pick it all apart makes me feel like I'm in my own version of the house.

[ColinIsCool]

I can talk about this book for days. I don’t find it gimmicky because everything seems to have a reason (formal, narrative-driven or otherwise) for being in there — even the backwards pages and strange layouts. It’s really like nothing else I’ve ever read, and if other Syndicaters haven’t picked it up in the five years this thread has been around, they should get on that!

[insertnamehere]

I can talk about this book for days. I don’t find it gimmicky because everything seems to have a reason (formal, narrative-driven or otherwise) for being in there — even the backwards pages and strange layouts. It’s really like nothing else I’ve ever read, and if other Syndicaters haven’t picked it up in the five years this thread has been around, they should get on that!

Somehow I completely missed this thread despite having read and loved the book. Now, if only I could find a way to turn into a mafia game...

Have you tried any of Danielewski's other work? I know that just last year his proposed 27-book long series got put on "pause" a mere 5 volumes in, which makes me wonder if it's worth checking out at all.

[insertnamehere]

I also recently found this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/w8ju058vnudef ... i.pdf?dl=0

Pilot script for a possible TV show by the author.

[speedchuck]

Have you tried any of Danielewski's other work? I know that just last year his proposed 27-book long series got put on "pause" a mere 5 volumes in, which makes me wonder if it's worth checking out at all.

A friend of mine has read the Familiar and he loves it.

I've also read The 50 Year Sword by him. It's... not that great.

[ColinIsCool]

I can talk about this book for days. I don’t find it gimmicky because everything seems to have a reason (formal, narrative-driven or otherwise) for being in there — even the backwards pages and strange layouts. It’s really like nothing else I’ve ever read, and if other Syndicaters haven’t picked it up in the five years this thread has been around, they should get on that!

Somehow I completely missed this thread despite having read and loved the book. Now, if only I could find a way to turn into a mafia game...

Have you tried any of Danielewski's other work? I know that just last year his proposed 27-book long series got put on "pause" a mere 5 volumes in, which makes me wonder if it's worth checking out at all.

I have not, but I’ve heard pretty good things. Being 27 books long makes me wonder what he’s thinking though

As far as a mafia game I have toyed with the idea of it but doing it properly is beyond me. A real House of Leaves mafia would be a formalist exploration/explosion into the very nature of the game itself. Also, there’d be hallways.

[speedchuck]

As far as a mafia game I have toyed with the idea of it but doing it properly is beyond me. A real House of Leaves mafia would be a formalist exploration/explosion into the very nature of the game itself. Also, there’d be hallways.

Well, here is how it would work as a tv script apparently:

https://twitter.com/markdanielewski/status/1014191959811002368

I haven't read the book, but it's looking like I need to.