The Syndicate

Epignosis wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Gun to head read

I'm telling you up front I ain't answering any of this GTH bullshit.

And I ain't doing any ISOs.

And I damn sure ain't doing no rainbows reads. I've got Reading Rainbow, and that's enough rainbow reading for me.

Fair enough, of course, you're free to play however you want.

Devin the Omniscient wrote:Noob mistake Gumshoe!

Well, jeez, you (my mafia brother) should have told me (your mafia brother) not to do it when I (your mafia brother) told you (my mafia brother) that I (your mafia brother) was going to post that.

Did I mention that we're mafia brothers?

This isn't in green because it's all true

Yeah there are [ ot] tags for the shade of green we use for off topic (also tags for sarcastic orange, dead red, and non player blue)

Epignosis wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Gun to head read

I'm telling you up front I ain't answering any of this GTH bullshit.

And I ain't doing any ISOs.

And I damn sure ain't doing no rainbows reads. I've got Reading Rainbow, and that's enough rainbow reading for me.

Did you see the kickstarter stuff about Reading Rainbow?

nutella wrote:Yeah there are [ ot] tags for the shade of green we use for off topic (also tags for sarcastic orange, dead red, and non player blue)

Okay, thank you. I predict I'll be using some green and orange in my future. Hopefully no red.

sig wrote:I'm new myself to this forum and to mafia, however I wouldn't say we should get a free pass. Don't go after new people just because they are new to the site or if they are wall flowering in the first few phases, but if someone new is acting very scummy then I would vote for them. However, mafia could just as easily start a bandwagon on someone new so anyone that advocates to strongly to lynch a new player should be watched.

Meant Devin not MP, also didn't realize it was a joke if it is.

Is there any other things like the joking truce new players should know about? Like certain players always voting to lynch the same player on day one, or lynching someone if they survive the first night?

My IMPACT.

Gumshoe wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Gun to head read

I'm telling you up front I ain't answering any of this GTH bullshit.

And I ain't doing any ISOs.

And I damn sure ain't doing no rainbows reads. I've got Reading Rainbow, and that's enough rainbow reading for me.

Did you see the kickstarter stuff about Reading Rainbow?

I'll have to take your word for it.

This all got very interesting. I see MP07 is going full-swing with the Question-Hammer, good to see! Gets people talking.

Here's the general rule I use with new players. If it comes down to a vote that's based on very little, I'll probably avoid going for them in the spirit of community friendliness. If there's a bigger or more stand-out suspicion on a new player, then I'll probably vote for them despite their newness.

I'm not too pinged by this truce thing, and I don't know what to think about the shoving match between MP and Epig yet.

Linki: I also suspect Gumshoe and Devin of being criminally fraternal in some subtle way.

Long Con wrote:I don't know what to think about the shoving match between MP and Epig yet.

Shoving match?

Long Con wrote: Here's the general rule I use with new players. If it comes down to a vote that's based on very little, I'll probably avoid going for them in the spirit of community friendliness. If there's a bigger or more stand-out suspicion on a new player, then I'll probably vote for them despite their newness.

Basically this

Epignosis wrote:

Long Con wrote:I don't know what to think about the shoving match between MP and Epig yet.

Shoving match?

Indeed, I'm also curious as to what is meant exactly here.

My eye is on Devin almost immediately because of that joking truce thing. Mafia Cobalt tries to jokingly buddy up to people to see if they'd be receptive to it or not.

nutella wrote:

Long Con wrote: Here's the general rule I use with new players. If it comes down to a vote that's based on very little, I'll probably avoid going for them in the spirit of community friendliness. If there's a bigger or more stand-out suspicion on a new player, then I'll probably vote for them despite their newness.

Basically this

I don't give a fuck, y'all can vote for me whenever you want, if you want. Just keep in mind that the most recent mafia game I played my day 3 scum reads list was 5/6 accurate and I got MVP. I don't know you guys as well as that crowd but I do have decent instincts.

Cobalt wrote:My eye is on Devin almost immediately because of that joking truce thing. Mafia Cobalt tries to jokingly buddy up to people to see if they'd be receptive to it or not.

nutella wrote:

Long Con wrote: Here's the general rule I use with new players. If it comes down to a vote that's based on very little, I'll probably avoid going for them in the spirit of community friendliness. If there's a bigger or more stand-out suspicion on a new player, then I'll probably vote for them despite their newness.

Basically this

I don't give a fuck, y'all can vote for me whenever you want, if you want. Just keep in mind that the most recent mafia game I played my day 3 scum reads list was 5/6 accurate and I got MVP. I don't know you guys as well as that crowd but I do have decent instincts.

So because it is line with your mafia meta to do something, you extrapolate to mean that it is likely within someone else's meta, whom you've never met, as well?

Are you implying that we shouldn't vote for you because you have good instincts? What does that have to do with your alignment?

I've always had a policy of not voting newbies on day one and it has nothing to do with giving anyone a free pass.

Newbies often need time to figure it out. My first game I was civ and I nearly got lynched day one because people thought I'd taken to the game too easily and must have teammates. I've seen similar things happen all the time - newbies are suspicious either for knowing to much or making some apparent 'slip', but the simple reality is most of the things people think are baddie signals from newbies are just them figuring out the game.

I think newbie lynches on day one are easy mafia marks and tend to have contrived cases.

It's not a 100% rule - if a newbie was to do something that made it so incredibly obvious they were mafia, then of course I will vote them still. But that is very rarely the case (I haven't seen it yet). It's more like a 99% rule.

Epignosis wrote:

Gumshoe wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Gun to head read

I'm telling you up front I ain't answering any of this GTH bullshit.

And I ain't doing any ISOs.

And I damn sure ain't doing no rainbows reads. I've got Reading Rainbow, and that's enough rainbow reading for me.

Did you see the kickstarter stuff about Reading Rainbow?

I'll have to take your word for it.

I see your interest is totally piqued.

Long Con wrote:Linki: I also suspect Gumshoe and Devin of being criminally fraternal in some subtle way.

How does he know? Devin, did YOU tell him!?

Epignosis: Civvie (because he is asking questions like a good little civvie)
MP: Mafia (Because when the fuck are you not?)
Sig: Indie (No read whatsoever yet)

Don't expect a serious answer until we're well into day one

Omg we started?!? Wut. Ok, I will be back tonight to jump in. 3 pages and its day 0! >.<

Gumshoe wrote:

Devin the Omniscient wrote:Noob mistake Gumshoe!

Well, jeez, you (my mafia brother) should have told me (your mafia brother) not to do it when I (your mafia brother) told you (my mafia brother) that I (your mafia brother) was going to post that.

Did I mention that we're mafia brothers?

This isn't in green because it's all true

We mafia brothers gotta stick together! Thanks for outing me, btw. knucklehead

Thanks for putting up with my extended interrogation, Devin. This certainly won't be the end, but I wanted to take advantage of you being here at the same time as myself, early on, to try and pick your brain.

You won't be getting my vote on Day 1 unless something drastically changes. Neither will Epi.

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Cobalt wrote:My eye is on Devin almost immediately because of that joking truce thing. Mafia Cobalt tries to jokingly buddy up to people to see if they'd be receptive to it or not.

nutella wrote:

Long Con wrote: Here's the general rule I use with new players. If it comes down to a vote that's based on very little, I'll probably avoid going for them in the spirit of community friendliness. If there's a bigger or more stand-out suspicion on a new player, then I'll probably vote for them despite their newness.

Basically this

I don't give a fuck, y'all can vote for me whenever you want, if you want. Just keep in mind that the most recent mafia game I played my day 3 scum reads list was 5/6 accurate and I got MVP. I don't know you guys as well as that crowd but I do have decent instincts.

So because it is line with your mafia meta to do something, you extrapolate to mean that it is likely within someone else's meta, whom you've never met, as well?

Are you implying that we shouldn't vote for you because you have good instincts? What does that have to do with your alignment?

It's a decent theory. No one is ENTIRELY a unique little snowflake no matter what our mothers tell us. If one person thought of it then it's possible others have as well.

Mafia probably have better "instincts" than the rest of us anyway.

Gumshoe wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Cobalt wrote:My eye is on Devin almost immediately because of that joking truce thing. Mafia Cobalt tries to jokingly buddy up to people to see if they'd be receptive to it or not.

nutella wrote:

Long Con wrote: Here's the general rule I use with new players. If it comes down to a vote that's based on very little, I'll probably avoid going for them in the spirit of community friendliness. If there's a bigger or more stand-out suspicion on a new player, then I'll probably vote for them despite their newness.

Basically this

I don't give a fuck, y'all can vote for me whenever you want, if you want. Just keep in mind that the most recent mafia game I played my day 3 scum reads list was 5/6 accurate and I got MVP. I don't know you guys as well as that crowd but I do have decent instincts.

So because it is line with your mafia meta to do something, you extrapolate to mean that it is likely within someone else's meta, whom you've never met, as well?

Are you implying that we shouldn't vote for you because you have good instincts? What does that have to do with your alignment?

It's a decent theory. No one is ENTIRELY a unique little snowflake no matter what our mothers tell us. If one person thought of it then it's possible others have as well.

Mafia probably have better "instincts" than the rest of us anyway.

If you think it's a decent theory, then are you also suspecting Devin?

Gumshoe wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Gumshoe wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Gun to head read

I'm telling you up front I ain't answering any of this GTH bullshit.

And I ain't doing any ISOs.

And I damn sure ain't doing no rainbows reads. I've got Reading Rainbow, and that's enough rainbow reading for me.

Did you see the kickstarter stuff about Reading Rainbow?

I'll have to take your word for it.

I see your interest is totally piqued.

So Cobalt could pick 5/6 of the mafia team because he was on it?

I have every intention to continue my newfound love of rainbow lists, if at all possible, since I do find them particularly helpful in organizing my own thoughts and feelings on players, and I have to keep up the self-imposed moniker of Rainbow Sockman somehow!

I will put them in spoiler tags though, so that people may read them at their discretion.
Come at me, Cobalt.

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Gumshoe wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Cobalt wrote:My eye is on Devin almost immediately because of that joking truce thing. Mafia Cobalt tries to jokingly buddy up to people to see if they'd be receptive to it or not.

nutella wrote:

Long Con wrote: Here's the general rule I use with new players. If it comes down to a vote that's based on very little, I'll probably avoid going for them in the spirit of community friendliness. If there's a bigger or more stand-out suspicion on a new player, then I'll probably vote for them despite their newness.

Basically this

I don't give a fuck, y'all can vote for me whenever you want, if you want. Just keep in mind that the most recent mafia game I played my day 3 scum reads list was 5/6 accurate and I got MVP. I don't know you guys as well as that crowd but I do have decent instincts.

So because it is line with your mafia meta to do something, you extrapolate to mean that it is likely within someone else's meta, whom you've never met, as well?

Are you implying that we shouldn't vote for you because you have good instincts? What does that have to do with your alignment?

It's a decent theory. No one is ENTIRELY a unique little snowflake no matter what our mothers tell us. If one person thought of it then it's possible others have as well.

Mafia probably have better "instincts" than the rest of us anyway.

If you think it's a decent theory, then are you also suspecting Devin?

You obviously haven't been listening to Devin and I discussing our BTSC in the previous page. Actual answer, no, I'm still trying to figure people out.

Epignosis wrote:

Gumshoe wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Gumshoe wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Gun to head read

I'm telling you up front I ain't answering any of this GTH bullshit.

And I ain't doing any ISOs.

And I damn sure ain't doing no rainbows reads. I've got Reading Rainbow, and that's enough rainbow reading for me.

Did you see the kickstarter stuff about Reading Rainbow?

I'll have to take your word for it.

I see your interest is totally piqued.

Brainfart confirmed. Ignore all previous interactions.

Hi, nice to meet you for the very first time.

Fair enough, Gumshoe, I figured, but just thought I'd ask anyway.

I have to go, be back later. Feel free to revert back into Day 0 if any of you wish, but I, for one, was too impatient.

MovingPictures07 wrote:Thanks for putting up with my extended interrogation, Devin. This certainly won't be the end, but I wanted to take advantage of you being here at the same time as myself, early on, to try and pick your brain.

You won't be getting my vote on Day 1 unless something drastically changes. Neither will Epi.

I wouldn't expect anything less, Buddy!
I do need to get back to work, though

I will leave you with this for now: What make you of Cobalt's confidence coming into a new site? I will just say that I don't have a problem with confidence in general...

Welcome to you, too, Cobalt!!

MP, you mean this isn't normal Day 0 antics?

Cobalt wrote:My eye is on Devin almost immediately because of that joking truce thing. Mafia Cobalt tries to jokingly buddy up to people to see if they'd be receptive to it or not.

nutella wrote:

Long Con wrote: Here's the general rule I use with new players. If it comes down to a vote that's based on very little, I'll probably avoid going for them in the spirit of community friendliness. If there's a bigger or more stand-out suspicion on a new player, then I'll probably vote for them despite their newness.

Basically this

I don't give a fuck, y'all can vote for me whenever you want, if you want. Just keep in mind that the most recent mafia game I played my day 3 scum reads list was 5/6 accurate and I got MVP. I don't know you guys as well as that crowd but I do have decent instincts.

You were MVP? I didn't know that.

Also I agree with Sig on the point of not excluding new members (like me) in the lynch early if they appear scummy. Scum needs a good powerwash. And I am for hire! I charge by the minute tho.

Long Con wrote:This all got very interesting. I see MP07 is going full-swing with the Question-Hammer, good to see! Gets people talking.

Here's the general rule I use with new players. If it comes down to a vote that's based on very little, I'll probably avoid going for them in the spirit of community friendliness. If there's a bigger or more stand-out suspicion on a new player, then I'll probably vote for them despite their newness.

I'm not too pinged by this truce thing, and I don't know what to think about the shoving match between MP and Epig yet.

Linki: I also suspect Gumshoe and Devin of being criminally fraternal in some subtle way.

Weren't you mafia last game? I do remember you personally leading a preemptive charge against me Day 1 for my first mafia game, and then proceeding to night kill me Night 1. Which was slightly irritating for my first game, but hey, that's the game. Correct me if I'm wrong with my info tho.

This has been an interesting discussion. I look forward to rereading it in depth tonight.

And re the not lynching nubs day one;in the past we were somewhat isolated, and if we had a nub playing it generally meant they had never played mafia at all before. And if you lynched them day one most never came back at all,Lol.

Scotty wrote:

Cobalt wrote:My eye is on Devin almost immediately because of that joking truce thing. Mafia Cobalt tries to jokingly buddy up to people to see if they'd be receptive to it or not.

nutella wrote:

Long Con wrote: Here's the general rule I use with new players. If it comes down to a vote that's based on very little, I'll probably avoid going for them in the spirit of community friendliness. If there's a bigger or more stand-out suspicion on a new player, then I'll probably vote for them despite their newness.

Basically this

I don't give a fuck, y'all can vote for me whenever you want, if you want. Just keep in mind that the most recent mafia game I played my day 3 scum reads list was 5/6 accurate and I got MVP. I don't know you guys as well as that crowd but I do have decent instincts.

You were MVP? I didn't know that.

Also I agree with Sig on the point of not excluding new members (like me) in the lynch early if they appear scummy. Scum needs a good powerwash. And I am for hire! I charge by the minute tho.

The game I was talking about was on GTF, not on JTM.

nutella wrote:

Long Con wrote: Here's the general rule I use with new players. If it comes down to a vote that's based on very little, I'll probably avoid going for them in the spirit of community friendliness. If there's a bigger or more stand-out suspicion on a new player, then I'll probably vote for them despite their newness.

Basically this

Basically this [2]

Cobalt wrote:My eye is on Devin almost immediately because of that joking truce thing. Mafia Cobalt tries to jokingly buddy up to people to see if they'd be receptive to it or not.

nutella wrote:

Long Con wrote: Here's the general rule I use with new players. If it comes down to a vote that's based on very little, I'll probably avoid going for them in the spirit of community friendliness. If there's a bigger or more stand-out suspicion on a new player, then I'll probably vote for them despite their newness.

Basically this

I don't give a fuck, y'all can vote for me whenever you want, if you want. Just keep in mind that the most recent mafia game I played my day 3 scum reads list was 5/6 accurate and I got MVP. I don't know you guys as well as that crowd but I do have decent instincts.

Watch out, we got a badass here.

Devin the Omniscient wrote:MP: Mafia (Because when the fuck are you not?)

Honestly I'm yet to see what mafia MP is like. I only played 2 games with him and he was town in both.

I hope I get to see it soon so I can lynch the fuck out of him. You guys make it sound like it's really fun.

Epignosis wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:Gun to head read

I'm telling you up front I ain't answering any of this GTH bullshit.

And I ain't doing any ISOs.

And I damn sure ain't doing no rainbows reads. I've got Reading Rainbow, and that's enough rainbow reading for me.

I'll be honest, I'm try to do less of those this time around. First, there is such thing as too much information. Second, I'm playing 2 games at once and I'm already feeling the load.

Expect a full list of reads from me around day 2 or 3, though.

Gumshoe wrote:Hopefully no red.

MovingPictures07 wrote:

Epignosis wrote:Making observations and asking questions is what a good little civilian is supposed to do. And I'm trying to be a good little civilian.

Instead of answering the question, you ask me a question about probability (the answer is 25% with anyone, just under 4% with a new person), then dodge the question a second time by asking me about my instinct regarding your "set of statements."

Is there a reason you're not forthcoming about my initial question?

Perhaps.

You trying to be good civilian seems like a fresh breath of air, Epi. At least SEEMS.

And MP, it's unlike of you to avoid a question like that.

Epignosis wrote:

MovingPictures07 wrote:***I would like to avoid voting a player completely new to The Syndicate on Day 1. I used to very vocally oppose those who took this view, but I have recently come around to this line of thinking. I do think it would suck to come to a new site and get lynched Day 1 your first game, so newbies will get a "free pass" from me, but only from my vote (not any suspicion I have), and if they are my top suspect going into Day 2, I will not hesitate to vote for a newbie.

Why? What changed your mind, that you should "very vocally oppose those who took this view" to "recently come around to this line of thinking?" The underlined was the exact same reasoning people gave, which you claim to have rejected that notion before, but now you are accepting it without offering any reason why.

That's a change of heart I was not expecting, especially slipped into a discussion about your history with Devin.

To put a finer point on it, I count exactly four brand new people in this. If you are bad with any number of them, your change of heart excuses you from voting them Day 1 (i.e., putting your money where your mouth is) all the while leaving yourself open to distance ("Yes, I'm quite suspicious of NEWGUY but as I already said Day 0, I won't vote a new person").

iirc, MP explained this is the Economics game. Something about his recent trip to other mafia sites having changed his view on how to play. He did have that stance on that game and he was town.

I'd like to see the him confirm this by himself here, though.

Scotty wrote:

Long Con wrote:This all got very interesting. I see MP07 is going full-swing with the Question-Hammer, good to see! Gets people talking.

Here's the general rule I use with new players. If it comes down to a vote that's based on very little, I'll probably avoid going for them in the spirit of community friendliness. If there's a bigger or more stand-out suspicion on a new player, then I'll probably vote for them despite their newness.

I'm not too pinged by this truce thing, and I don't know what to think about the shoving match between MP and Epig yet.

Linki: I also suspect Gumshoe and Devin of being criminally fraternal in some subtle way.

Weren't you mafia last game? I do remember you personally leading a preemptive charge against me Day 1 for my first mafia game, and then proceeding to night kill me Night 1. Which was slightly irritating for my first game, but hey, that's the game. Correct me if I'm wrong with my info tho.

hhhh, drag ha

Long Con buddied up to my reads and he was my strongest civ read and he wound up being mafia. Thank fuck for a godlike vigi / JOAT. Won't be making that mistake again.

It's also why I'm coming for his weave this game.

I don't really partake in Day 0/Pregame stuff, but a word of advice to you Cobalt. Pay very close attention to the rules of this game. I probably couldve gotten myself Dq'ed in Bible Mafia numerous times if I played like I was usually allowed to. Standards are different around here.

Things like info dumping and role claiming and shit like that.

BACK TO NEW VEGAS! Robo-Scorpions need cleansing!

Wow this game has blown up.
Mp why don't you want to answer Epi question about voting newbies?

There have been way too many FEB smilies relative to the amount of posts so far

nutella wrote:There have been way too many FEB smilies relative to the amount of posts so far

Scotty wrote:Fun fact I just noticed: is llama in code. IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW.

This used to be Llamas avatar (the evil looking one on the right)~

I want to lynch Long Con. That's where my Day 1 vote will be going as of right now.

Epignosis wrote:I want to lynch Long Con. That's where my Day 1 vote will be going as of right now.

Why? If you posted it already can you post a link.

Bass_the_Clever wrote:

Epignosis wrote:I want to lynch Long Con. That's where my Day 1 vote will be going as of right now.

Why? If you posted it already can you post a link.

It's Day 0. Long Con has six posts. I'm not posting a link for you. Read his posts and draw your own conclusion. Then tell me if you find anything suspicious.

If you don't, then I'll gladly share what I found.

Epignosis wrote:

Bass_the_Clever wrote:

Epignosis wrote:I want to lynch Long Con. That's where my Day 1 vote will be going as of right now.

Why? If you posted it already can you post a link.

It's Day 0. Long Con has six posts. I'm not posting a link for you. Read his posts and draw your own conclusion. Then tell me if you find anything suspicious.

If you don't, then I'll gladly share what I found.

Thanks.

Epignosis wrote:

Bass_the_Clever wrote:

Epignosis wrote:I want to lynch Long Con. That's where my Day 1 vote will be going as of right now.

Why? If you posted it already can you post a link.

It's Day 0. Long Con has six posts. I'm not posting a link for you. Read his posts and draw your own conclusion. Then tell me if you find anything suspicious.

If you don't, then I'll gladly share what I found.

Ok I read the six post, but I would still like to know what you find suspicious.
Is it because there are only six post, 3 of which are fluff posts?
Is it the MP/Epi shoving match post?

Oh good god, four pages on Day 0. Already gonna be a lot more talky than in Bible Mafia, I see. And the threat of more technicolor lists. Super :P

Comments on what's been commented on:
Voting newbie players on Day 1? I don't think I have much of an opinion on it. I don't actively avoid it, but I also don't actively go after new people in particular, as I do want them to stay. Hello, new people!
I'd like to see where these buddy-buddy so-called "truces" will end up (or is it just one "truce" between MP and his buddy?), but I personally think it's nothing right now.

That's all I can think of to say at the moment. No strong opinions on anyone just yet.

Cobalt wrote: I don't give a fuck, y'all can vote for me whenever you want, if you want. Just keep in mind that the most recent mafia game I played my day 3 scum reads list was 5/6 accurate and I got MVP. I don't know you guys as well as that crowd but I do have decent instincts.

So you were a great civ in the last game, and this means you... should be assumed to be a civ this time again? For realsies?

Oh, and regarding newbies... it's my understanding that these new faces are only new to this site and not mafia in general, right? As far as I'm concerned, if any of them end up on my shit list, they are getting votes. New to this site doesn't equal new.

Bass_the_Clever wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Bass_the_Clever wrote:

Epignosis wrote:I want to lynch Long Con. That's where my Day 1 vote will be going as of right now.

Why? If you posted it already can you post a link.

It's Day 0. Long Con has six posts. I'm not posting a link for you. Read his posts and draw your own conclusion. Then tell me if you find anything suspicious.

If you don't, then I'll gladly share what I found.

Ok I read the six post, but I would still like to know what you find suspicious.
Is it because there are only six post, 3 of which are fluff posts?
Is it the MP/Epi shoving match post?

As promised:

Long Con wrote:This all got very interesting.

No it didn't. It's all Day 0 dicking around. Nothing has gotten interesting at all. "Interesting" is a stupid word. Stop using it Mafia.

Long Con wrote:I see MP07 is going full-swing with the Question-Hammer, good to see! Gets people talking.

According to LC, MP is getting people talking, and it's "good to see." Hold that in mind.

Long Con wrote:I'm not too pinged by this truce thing, and I don't know what to think about the shoving match between MP and Epig yet.

If you "don't know what to think" about something, why in hell bring it up? Does anybody care that you don't know what to think about something? Why not keep quiet until you do know what you think?

And why characterize my exchange with MP as a "shoving match?" That can't be genuine. In this same post, LC said MP was "swinging the question hammer," which is "good to see." Now he's not sure what to think about the Epi/MP "shoving match?"

This doesn't smell right to me.

I'm voting Long Con, except I can't because Hedgeowl hasn't voted 18 yet.