The Syndicate

Matt... Thanks for making the case I didn't have time for on fz.

I don't really know what to do with my vote for today. This lynch is completely effed up.

Looking over Zebra's posts, I'm wondering why she completely ignored (and when I say completely, I mean completely) Sorsha's "case" on MM...

On that day, Sorsha had made 9 posts either questioning MM or clearly relaying she thinks MM is bad and wants him gone. This all occurs before 3:27 PM (my time).

At 3:27 PM, Zebra comes in and makes the following posts...
That last post is at 4:33 PM my time. At this point, an hour and six minute has gone by since Zebra has started posting, and she is disinterested in the MM case I suppose because she's ignoring it.

I'd also like to point out, while she's ignoring the MM case, she's also pushing Floyd here while at the time, MM had two votes, any other candidates had only one vote a piece.

20 Minutes after her last post pushing for Floyd, she finally chimes in on MM...

4:53 PM
Finally, 1 hour and 26 minutes after Zebra logs in, she chimes in on MM, to defend him. This was 18 minutes before the vote ends.

After the lynch and result...
Per the underline, she's made a bunch of posts (I've lost count, and some of them were defending me against Golden/Mac...ummmm thanks for that btw haha) but no looking for any MM connections.

I dunno.

FZ. wrote:Zebra, all you've done this day is show Mac you were suspicious of him as zebra 1, then when I asked you what happened to your Golden suspicion, you said nothing happened and voted for him. Didn't try to help the civvie cause in any way or get to the bottom of things.
I don't buy your actions today. They don't feel genuine. It's like it was a good thing for you I asked about Golden, because it gave you an excuse to vote for him.

I'm ready to vote for zebra.

This is entirely your narrative. Each one of these pings is based on your idea of what my thought process was with each of these actions. I had to show Mac that I was suspicious of him before because he denied that I ever was when I said that I had a scum read on him, just like I had to show you that my Golden suspicion still existed despite making clear many times that I was backing off of him on purpose because people wouldn't listen to me. Looks like history is repeating itself. I have tried to get to the bottom of things but unless I'm defending myself or calling out someone specifically, no one will take any notice of my posts. And I don't need excuses to vote for who I think is bad, as my case from Day 1 is not invalidated just because it is later in the game.

Thank you for actually presenting a legitimate case against me, Matt. I wasn't swayed one way or another by the case against MM so I ignored talking about it because I dislike commenting on neutral reads. I like to be either attacking or defending players, and I chimed in near the end about MM because people were calling his post of indifference a ping and I didn't think it was. I still wouldn't.

As for not talking about the connections between MM and other players, that is my fault entirely. I was going to start by seeing how everyone else reacted to the lynch and then I forgot to go back and look through his ISO of the thread, and then I forgot to look for any connections entirely. It may be too late but IDGAF, I'm doing it now.

Matt F wrote:Looking over Zebra's posts, I'm wondering why she completely ignored (and when I say completely, I mean completely) Sorsha's "case" on MM...

On that day, Sorsha had made 9 posts either questioning MM or clearly relaying she thinks MM is bad and wants him gone. This all occurs before 3:27 PM (my time).

At 3:27 PM, Zebra comes in and makes the following posts...

Spoiler: show

a2thezebra wrote:I'm voting Floyd for scum-slipping, being called out on it, and then failing to properly address it. I would not trust the lynching of anyone else at this point.

Spoiler: show

a2thezebra wrote:Eloh, your vote for ni isn't going to distance you from how poorly justified your Day 1 vote was. I know this wasn't the vote post itself, but you seemed a bit desperate to justify it beforehand.

Elohcin wrote:However, I do agree with you about Zebra...wow what a suspicious reaction. And that he went in and changed all the "you"s to "I"s in the post Mac wrote about Matt is very disconcerting.

Spoiler: show

a2thezebra wrote:I wouldn't mind an Eloh lynch today. Floyd would be preferable but beggars can't be choosers.

Spoiler: show

a2thezebra wrote:Oh right.

Spoiler: show

a2thezebra wrote:He's in the middle of a road trip and is having difficulty finding opportunities and even places to get online. For the record, I believe him, and find nothing suspicious about the varying quantities of his posts. The content of his posts, that's a bit more up in the air.

Spoiler: show

a2thezebra wrote:Floyd. Vote for Floyd.

That last post is at 4:33 PM my time. At this point, an hour and six minute has gone by since Zebra has started posting, and she is disinterested in the MM case I suppose because she's ignoring it.

I'd also like to point out, while she's ignoring the MM case, she's also pushing Floyd here while at the time, MM had two votes, any other candidates had only one vote a piece.

20 Minutes after her last post pushing for Floyd, she finally chimes in on MM...

4:53 PM

Spoiler: show

a2thezebra wrote:

FZ. wrote:MM isn't even trying to find baddies at the moment. He's voting for survival, but not doing anything to get to the truth. Doesn't make you look good MM

But he's doing it so blatantly that I'm less inclined to be suspicious because I don't see any deceit in his posts. If he was bad I think he would be showing more pressure.

Finally, 1 hour and 26 minutes after Zebra logs in, she chimes in on MM, to defend him. This was 18 minutes before the vote ends.

After the lynch and result...

Spoiler: show

a2thezebra wrote:Glad to be mistaken! This should help with looking for connections. I'll also be taking a look at my fellow Floyd voters to see which votes are the laziest, because I am now in doubt that both of the two main lynch candidates were/are bad.

Per the underline, she's made a bunch of posts (I've lost count, and some of them were defending me against Golden/Mac...ummmm thanks for that btw haha) but no looking for any MM connections.

I dunno.

This makes me feel even better about my vote

a2thezebra wrote:

FZ. wrote:Zebra, all you've done this day is show Mac you were suspicious of him as zebra 1, then when I asked you what happened to your Golden suspicion, you said nothing happened and voted for him. Didn't try to help the civvie cause in any way or get to the bottom of things.
I don't buy your actions today. They don't feel genuine. It's like it was a good thing for you I asked about Golden, because it gave you an excuse to vote for him.

I'm ready to vote for zebra.

This is entirely your narrative. Each one of these pings is based on your idea of what my thought process was with each of these actions. I had to show Mac that I was suspicious of him before because he denied that I ever was when I said that I had a scum read on him, just like I had to show you that my Golden suspicion still existed despite making clear many times that I was backing off of him on purpose because people wouldn't listen to me. Looks like history is repeating itself. I have tried to get to the bottom of things but unless I'm defending myself or calling out someone specifically, no one will take any notice of my posts. And I don't need excuses to vote for who I think is bad, as my case from Day 1 is not invalidated just because it is later in the game.

All I have is my narrative.
The big difference from zebra 1 is you were doing a lot to make people see things your way, while in this incarnation you didn't.
If you think Sig is a civ, wouldn't you say the right thing for a civ to do would be to consider all options and not waste a vote when you know no one will follow you?
No, I think you were too busy worrying about other things than worrying about saving Sig.

Why did you vote for Gloden when you did? There was plenty of time left until deadline

MM's first serious involvement with another player is Mac, regarding Mac's policy lynch request of Matt. It makes Mac look better to me because the conflict does not look staged whatsoever. As for how MM's insistence to not vote for Matt (which continued in Day 2!) effects Matt's alignment, that's a big bowl of WIFOM. I've been for the most part defensive of Matt throughout the game so far but not to the near-militant level that MM was, and that could go either way.

Later when asked by FZ who he thinks is bad, he says he doesn't have an answer. Great. In the next post hours later he votes for Turnip Head because TH voted for him first in the last speed game. In other words, a throwaway vote. After the flip, this post is significantly more amusing:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:No I'm not.

No comma after the "no", I see. I should take this as an indication that you were nervous with this response.

That's a good idea. I was nervous when I made this response.

Later after voting for Floyd to save his skin, he is careful to indicate that does not endorse a Floyd lynch, which makes me feel better that I was advocating that lynch. He is also careful to say that he doesn't think there is anything in Elohcin's posts to indicate that she is good or bad. I'll remind you that this was near the end of Day 2.

FZ had more inquiries to MM than I remembered, and they all seem genuine, so I think that looks better than her recent uninspired flip-flop on me would have me suspect. Overall, I wish there was more to go on from MM's ISO alone, but it looks like I'll have to read everyone else's as well. There really isn't as much to analyze with his own posts as I had hoped.

I think we should be talking about Floyd. His vote for MM looks like a hastily thrown together justification for voting a teammate who's going down. He didn't cite Sorsha's case, he didn't even say he was voting to save himself. He said MM's posts were "baseless" and I'm still not sure what he meant by that. Coupled with his self-vote on Day 1 and his reasoning for doing so, I think Floyd looks bad here.

Zebra has been flippant and dismissive of the suspicion against her, and she can say her vote for Golden wasn't impulsive, but Zebra 2.0 has not pursued Golden since she entered the game and the vote looks like a reaction to being questioned on that front rather than a genuine vote. I thought it was interesting that she claimed House Fremen though. I think Zebra's win condition might have changed and that could account for the behavioral discrepancies. (linki: Zebra is taking MattF's case seriously now, so I need to consider that)

I want to vote for Floyd between these two because I think he looks worse, but it seems there's more momentum going Zebra's way, so I would consider a vote there. But I want to know what people think of Floyd.

FZ. wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:

FZ. wrote:Zebra, all you've done this day is show Mac you were suspicious of him as zebra 1, then when I asked you what happened to your Golden suspicion, you said nothing happened and voted for him. Didn't try to help the civvie cause in any way or get to the bottom of things.
I don't buy your actions today. They don't feel genuine. It's like it was a good thing for you I asked about Golden, because it gave you an excuse to vote for him.

I'm ready to vote for zebra.

This is entirely your narrative. Each one of these pings is based on your idea of what my thought process was with each of these actions. I had to show Mac that I was suspicious of him before because he denied that I ever was when I said that I had a scum read on him, just like I had to show you that my Golden suspicion still existed despite making clear many times that I was backing off of him on purpose because people wouldn't listen to me. Looks like history is repeating itself. I have tried to get to the bottom of things but unless I'm defending myself or calling out someone specifically, no one will take any notice of my posts. And I don't need excuses to vote for who I think is bad, as my case from Day 1 is not invalidated just because it is later in the game.

All I have is my narrative.
The big difference from zebra 1 is you were doing a lot to make people see things your way, while in this incarnation you didn't.
If you think Sig is a civ, wouldn't you say the right thing for a civ to do would be to consider all options and not waste a vote when you know no one will follow you?
No, I think you were too busy worrying about other things than worrying about saving Sig.

Why did you vote for Gloden when you did? There was plenty of time left until deadline

The reason I was putting in more effort as Zebra 1 was because I had faith that those efforts would not be in vain. They were, and now my current incarnation is further proving that town is not listening to reason in this game. Hence my waste of a vote. And I'm not sure what exactly you mean about "saving" sig. Is sig in some sort of danger? Everyone knows that none of the votes on him are genuine, so there is not a chance of him being lynched. What am I worrying about exactly? I voted for Golden out of disgust for the suggestion that my suspicion of him has disappeared just because I haven't released walls of text advocating he be lynched, because that was so successful the first time.

The votes on him may not be genuine suspicion votes from those players but that doesn't mean he won't be lynched. They still count.....

sig
Sorsha
Turnip Head
bea
Matt F
MacDougall
S~V~S
NANANANANANA_BANANA
FZ
Luke11646
TheFloyd73
Elohcin
Golden

Sorsha wrote:The votes on him may not be genuine suspicion votes from those players but that doesn't mean he won't be lynched. They still count.....

What she said.



Basically, if we spread our votes, he may end up with the most votes.

Zebra, if you really are a civ again, I'm sorry, I already voted, and I will be even more sorry when people go after me if you're lynched and come out civ. But I just don't get that genuine feel I got from you in your previous incarnation. If you recall, I was the one that kept asking Golden to back off. There was a reason for that, and it was your behaviour. I'm just not feeling it this time around.

LOL, turns out I didn't vote zebra yet, so I can still change my mind. But like I said, I can't see anyone I feel better about voting for at the moment

Sorsha wrote:The votes on him may not be genuine suspicion votes from those players but that doesn't mean he won't be lynched. They still count.....

It does mean he won't be lynched because there is no case against him and everyone knows there is no case against him. People would end up lynching literally anyone else over a sig lynch today and for good reason.

linki - That's just it though, I have a pessimistic view of town this game but even I refuse to accept the possibility that we are dumb enough to spread our votes to the extent that it will result in a sig lynch. And I understand where you're coming from about my behavior, because it has changed. But that does not mean it isn't genuine.

If I was worried that we would spread our votes to the extent that a person the vast majority of us have a town read on will be lynched, I wouldn't have dared vote Golden. But I am not that cynical.

Damn, now you're making me doubt myself, zebra. I wish I had voted already :P

a2thezebra wrote:If I was worried that we would spread our votes to the extent that a person the vast majority of us have a town read on will be lynched, I wouldn't have dared vote Golden. But I am not that cynical.

Did you notice that the majority of us have a town read on Golden too?

FZ. wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:If I was worried that we would spread our votes to the extent that a person the vast majority of us have a town read on will be lynched, I wouldn't have dared vote Golden. But I am not that cynical.

Did you notice that the majority of us have a town read on Golden too?

Did you notice that there is no remotely good reason for the majority of us to think that?

For sig, the only chance of him being bad would be that he or his teammates intentionally forced the votes on him to make him look good. That's too elaborate and silly of a plan for me to think it likely that it is the case. Golden on the other hand has shown many inconsistencies and examples of disingenuous opportunistic behavior throughout the game. They may be relatively in the same league regarding what most of us think their alignment is, but they sure as hell should not be.

FZ. wrote:Damn, now you're making me doubt myself, zebra. I wish I had voted already :P

What do you think about Floyd?

a2thezebra wrote:For sig, the only chance of him being bad would be that he or his teammates intentionally forced the votes on him to make him look good. That's too elaborate and silly of a plan for me to think it likely that it is the case. Golden on the other hand has shown many inconsistencies and examples of disingenuous opportunistic behavior throughout the game. They may be relatively in the same league regarding what most of us think their alignment is, but they sure as hell should not be.

I don't know. I just don't feel it.

What do you think about TH?

Turnip Head wrote:

FZ. wrote:Damn, now you're making me doubt myself, zebra. I wish I had voted already :P

What do you think about Floyd?

LOL, I'm just inquiring about you. What do you think about TH?

I don't know. I thought he was bad, and then I thought zebra was bad which made me think Floyd was good. But now I'm back to hesitating about zebra. So maybe Floyd is bad.

TH is one of my strongest town reads. He has yet to make a post that I have second-guessed.

a2thezebra wrote:TH is one of my strongest town reads. He has yet to make a post that I have second-guessed.

Really? He's not as opinionated as I expect, nor influencing things.

Turnip Head wrote:But I want to know what people think of Floyd.

I would not complain about a Floyd lynch. I think his behaviour looks like a baddie. And either way it would put the day two voting into clearer context.

@zebra - lol about me showing many examples of disingenuous opportunistic behaviour. You are absurd and baffling. I've never quite experienced this thing people sometimes get with me, where they almost feel like their lynch would be cathartic just to prove me wrong. I'm beginning to understand with you. I've never met anyone whose tunneling is quite as blind to all external factors other than their own opinions. At least if you were actually right, I could assume it is based on you having info. But I know it isn't.

When you get to know me, you will learn that I don't even do 'many disingenuous things' when I'm bad.

a2thezebra wrote:For sig, the only chance of him being bad would be that he or his teammates intentionally forced the votes on him to make him look good.

Obviously, on this point, you are ignoring the fact that there are quite probably two different role abilities at play and we have no evidence that if sig is bad his teammates would have known what they were bringing upon him.

I'm only familiar with his meta from another ongoing game, so I'm not a good judge of what standards he should be held to. But from this game I think he's been opinionated, certainly nowhere near MM or lurker territory. As far as influencing things go, recent experience (ahem) tells me you can be opinionated as you want and still not influence anyone else's opinion. This can be your fault or theirs but more often than not it's both.

a2thezebra wrote:

FZ. wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:If I was worried that we would spread our votes to the extent that a person the vast majority of us have a town read on will be lynched, I wouldn't have dared vote Golden. But I am not that cynical.

Did you notice that the majority of us have a town read on Golden too?

Did you notice that there is no remotely good reason for the majority of us to think that?

No, they didn't, because there are many good reasons for everyone who knows me well to think that. Those reasons aren't even remote. I told you what they were on day one. You just refuse to listen.

The only person pushing for my lynch is someone who doesn't know the first thing about me.

Golden wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:For sig, the only chance of him being bad would be that he or his teammates intentionally forced the votes on him to make him look good.

Obviously, on this point, you are ignoring the fact that there are quite probably two different role abilities at play and we have no evidence that if sig is bad his teammates would have known what they were bringing upon him.

Oh look, external factors!

FZ. wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:TH is one of my strongest town reads. He has yet to make a post that I have second-guessed.

Really? He's not as opinionated as I expect, nor influencing things.

I think I've been plenty opinionated

a2thezebra wrote:

Golden wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:For sig, the only chance of him being bad would be that he or his teammates intentionally forced the votes on him to make him look good.

Obviously, on this point, you are ignoring the fact that there are quite probably two different role abilities at play and we have no evidence that if sig is bad his teammates would have known what they were bringing upon him.

Oh look, external factors!

There is nothing external about them.

No point in going into the Golden zebra fight again. I'm not going to vote Golden. It appears as though I'm not going to vote zebra either, and it looks like it's going to got to Floyd once again. I too want to resolve the issue of the votes on that day.

Any other suggestions?

Golden wrote:At least if you were actually right, I could assume it is based on you having info. But I know it isn't.

How needlessly elaborate of you to consider the possibility.

linki - You are misrepresenting a very unlikely and bizarrely specific possibility as if it were "fact" to justify your unwarranted doubts of sig's alignment. I think you're the one behind the three votes he has.

Golden wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:For sig, the only chance of him being bad would be that he or his teammates intentionally forced the votes on him to make him look good.

Obviously, on this point, you are ignoring the fact that there are quite probably two different role abilities at play and we have no evidence that if sig is bad his teammates would have known what they were bringing upon him.

Holy moley you made an educated guess as to what role abilities may be in this game.

You must be bad.

Anywho, I don't think it would be a silly plan to do what Zebra is suggesting might have happened on the off chance sig is still bad. Why not? In fact, I'm having a hard time believing that the Mafia would have that many vote manips on one day (and it would be a huge coincidence that two different roles manipulated votes on sig, IMO). Does this mean we can be expecting that many vote manips from them everyday? I don't think so, that seems insane. I wouldn't be surprised if one or more of the sig voters is faking.

As for Floyd, I think it's quite possible he bussed a teamie. I haven't looked at Floyd in any current games because over in TH, I cried for his head many times and was ignored. Also I know this seems like "really?" reasoning, but I think the odds are more in favor of someone getting a civ role, and since he was already a baddie in his first game, I just don't know.

I haven't looked at Turnip Head since I cased him, but right now I like FZ and Zebra better then him anyway.

FZ. wrote:No point in going into the Golden zebra fight again.

Why ask where my suspicion of him went if you think it's pointless for me to spar with him? Posts like this and the general "ugh not these two again" response I gathered from Day 1 IS the main reason I backed off in the first place. Would you rather I just say he's scum and leave the building when he shows up? I can't win with town unless I say I've changed my mind about Golden, and I can't, because that would be disingenuous.

One or more as in both of the sig voters that aren't you, Matt?

a2thezebra wrote:One or more as in both of the sig voters that aren't you, Matt?

Um yes exactly them. The two who treated me saying something obvious as having anything to do with my alignment.

a2thezebra wrote:

FZ. wrote:No point in going into the Golden zebra fight again.

Why ask where my suspicion of him went if you think it's pointless for me to spar with him? Posts like this and the general "ugh not these two again" response I gathered from Day 1 IS the main reason I backed off in the first place. Would you rather I just say he's scum and leave the building when he shows up? I can't win with town unless I say I've changed my mind about Golden, and I can't, because that would be disingenuous.

No, throw accusations at him all you want. I'm reading and thinking. But it always feels like it's getting personal with you two.

a2thezebra wrote:

Golden wrote:At least if you were actually right, I could assume it is based on you having info. But I know it isn't.

How needlessly elaborate of you to consider the possibility.

linki - You are misrepresenting a very unlikely and bizarrely specific possibility as if it were "fact" to justify your unwarranted doubts of sig's alignment. I think you're the one behind the three votes he has.

I am representing a very likely specific possibility and everyone who has read the thread knows it.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say I am accurately representing the facts.

a2thezebra wrote:One or more as in both of the sig voters that aren't you, Matt?

Also, what do you think? Do you think the mafia has several vote manips to their advantage every day?

Matt F wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:One or more as in both of the sig voters that aren't you, Matt?

Also, what do you think? Do you think the mafia has several vote manips to their advantage every day?

Do you see any visible mote manips from Day 1 or Day 2?

The only reason Mac is getting a free pass this game, at least from me, is that he's acting very different from TH game. But I know that if he got a baddie role again, he'd do his damnedest to look different. What has Mac done for the town so far? It's like every day he has this silly reason for not really getting himself dirty with the lynch. Day 1, it was the policy vote. Day 2, I don't even remember what it was, but he wasn't there in the midst of things. I think he didn't vote. Day 3, he happened to have been forced to vote.

Any thoughts on this?

a2thezebra wrote:

Golden wrote:At least if you were actually right, I could assume it is based on you having info. But I know it isn't.

How needlessly elaborate of you to consider the possibility.

OMG, look at golden, you'd think he is a lawyer or something

a2thezebra wrote:

Matt F wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:One or more as in both of the sig voters that aren't you, Matt?

Also, what do you think? Do you think the mafia has several vote manips to their advantage every day?

Do you see any visible mote manips from Day 1 or Day 2?

I haven't checked that far, but if anything, I'd say a mafia team would have one, and at most, two. Three? In one day?

Go ahead and look at me for my own reasoning, but I'm telling you, it seems like too many to me.

FZ. wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:

FZ. wrote:No point in going into the Golden zebra fight again.

Why ask where my suspicion of him went if you think it's pointless for me to spar with him? Posts like this and the general "ugh not these two again" response I gathered from Day 1 IS the main reason I backed off in the first place. Would you rather I just say he's scum and leave the building when he shows up? I can't win with town unless I say I've changed my mind about Golden, and I can't, because that would be disingenuous.

No, throw accusations at him all you want. I'm reading and thinking. But it always feels like it's getting personal with you two.

It feels that way to me, too. I think zebra's suspicion of me is (or was) genuine, but I think she is also wilfully ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

FZ. wrote:The only reason Mac is getting a free pass this game, at least from me, is that he's acting very different from TH game. But I know that if he got a baddie role again, he'd do his damnedest to look different. What has Mac done for the town so far? It's like every day he has this silly reason for not really getting himself dirty with the lynch. Day 1, it was the policy vote. Day 2, I don't even remember what it was, but he wasn't there in the midst of things. I think he didn't vote. Day 3, he happened to have been forced to vote.

Any thoughts on this?

His interactions with MM were the only thing that made me second-guess my scum read of him but this observation re-affirms it.

Matt F wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:

Matt F wrote:

a2thezebra wrote:One or more as in both of the sig voters that aren't you, Matt?

Also, what do you think? Do you think the mafia has several vote manips to their advantage every day?

Do you see any visible mote manips from Day 1 or Day 2?

I haven't checked that far, but if anything, I'd say a mafia team would have one, and at most, two. Three? In one day?

Go ahead and look at me for my own reasoning, but I'm telling you, it seems like too many to me.

Au contraire, I think you may be on to something.

FZ. wrote:The only reason Mac is getting a free pass this game, at least from me, is that he's acting very different from TH game. But I know that if he got a baddie role again, he'd do his damnedest to look different. What has Mac done for the town so far? It's like every day he has this silly reason for not really getting himself dirty with the lynch. Day 1, it was the policy vote. Day 2, I don't even remember what it was, but he wasn't there in the midst of things. I think he didn't vote. Day 3, he happened to have been forced to vote.

Any thoughts on this?

I'm getting very good vibes from Mac. I think that when he has analysed what is going on, that analysis has been a genuine attempt to solve the game. I'm more swayed by his posting and perspective than I am by the specific votes.

It seems like the only person people seem to agree on is Floyd, which is no where to be found.