RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

[Golden]

I think we should react upon the utter shit heap that occurred over the past few phases rather than put our votes on people who were not involved.

If there's a scum among them, how do we win?

That was a serious question. If there's an answer I'm missing, please lemme have it.

I didn't say 'never lynch them'. But we've just had 2 phases of the most meaningful and meaty contributions I've ever seen and you want to ignore all of that and focus the few who weren't involved.

Isn't a possible outcome of 'meaty contributions' that you are able to identify that all those involved were town? I would disagree with 'focussing on wilgy and rey'. There isn't much to focus on. Analyse other stuff. But focussing on them and ending up lynching one of them, are two different things in my book.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I didn't say 'never lynch them'. But we've just had 2 phases of the most meaningful and meaty contributions I've ever seen and you want to ignore all of that and focus the few who weren't involved.

Tell me why I want to lynch them.

[Quin]

I didn't say 'never lynch them'. But we've just had 2 phases of the most meaningful and meaty contributions I've ever seen and you want to ignore all of that and focus the few who weren't involved.

Tell me why I want to lynch them.

Because they weren't involved?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm a guy who has many many Mafia posts in his day criticizing people for going after easy low-content targets.

I don't do this for no reason. This isn't some bullshit agenda. I'm not clueless.

[Quin]

I think we should react upon the utter shit heap that occurred over the past few phases rather than put our votes on people who were not involved.

If there's a scum among them, how do we win?

That was a serious question. If there's an answer I'm missing, please lemme have it.

I didn't say 'never lynch them'. But we've just had 2 phases of the most meaningful and meaty contributions I've ever seen and you want to ignore all of that and focus the few who weren't involved.

Isn't a possible outcome of 'meaty contributions' that you are able to identify that all those involved were town? I would disagree with 'focussing on wilgy and rey'. There isn't much to focus on. Analyse other stuff. But focussing on them and ending up lynching one of them, are two different things in my book.

Do you support lynching one of the two tomorrow, then?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Because they weren't involved?

Wrong.

I don't give a damn whether they've been involved. I can name at least one meaningful reason to town read everyone in this game except them.

[Golden]

Do you support lynching one of the two tomorrow, then?

I'm not going to rule it out. I agree with you that we should be evaluating the meaty content first. Where I don't agree is that we have to lynch someone who has meaty content and was involved. Sometimes everyone involved in meaty content is a civ. I think we should take each person on their own merits.

(Case in point, day one of economics mafia where I was lynched after masses of posting and meaty content and all of the baddies basically didn't contribute whatsoever to the day).

[Golden]

I think it's probably fair to say that at this point my PoE is like Jay's and they probably are the only two in it. So, I am leaning towards lynching one of the pair tomorrow right now.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I agree that all of the time we have should be spent scrutinizing everyone. I am certain that will happen. I am saying who I want to lynch, not who I want to discuss at length. There's nothing to say about Wilgy or reywaS.

[Epignosis]

I've never understood this about Turf Wars:

How did I look "so shitty" then? I wasn't around when it happened. I was in a car. Being a designated driver of all things (at five in the afternoon, of all times).

I don't remember the exact details. What I remember is that you had an opportunity to make an impactful vote as the heat was rising against Fuzz, and instead you camped on some pointless wagon that would have no consequence in the final result.

I literally wasn't able to vote. Or comment. Or do anything.

And did I get caught? No I didn't. I won. Like a winner.

Nobody threatened you in Transistor. The civilians were a mess. MP got bussed and so did Eloh. You killed Process elements. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

We killed sig because he had gotten a fake claim out of MP in BTSC that we didn't want to deal with.
We killed Matt because he had crucified Elohcin and looked sterling.
We killed DrWilgy because he looked great alongside Matt and would have been a tough lynch.
We killed Young Lady because we didn't know WTF to do with the elements and guessed.
We killed Scotty because he was all over MP and I wanted to take the reigns of the MP case myself for the credit.
We killed Snapshot because of its power.
We tried to kill nijuukyugou because she looked like a near-impossible lynch.
We killed thellama73 because it was increasingly clear he had information on me.
We killed Badcell to get a voting edge over The Process.
We killed Luna to win.

Nobody threatened you in Transistor. The civilians were a mess. They didn't even use their damn abilities. Your only threat was The Process.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I literally wasn't able to vote. Or comment. Or do anything.

And did I get caught? No I didn't. I won. Like a winner.

Congratulations. I don't know or care what your circumstances were. It was something I suspected, timmer suspected, and Sloonei suspected. You were bad.

Nobody threatened you in Transistor. The civilians were a mess. They didn't even use their damn abilities. Your only threat was The Process.

The civilians had their struggles, but we were not unthreatened. llama and Mac were up my ass all game. Scotty was up MP's ass. Wilgy and Matt were suspicious of Elohcin (I'll spare you the language on that one), and DrumBeats was up K4J's ass. We killed people we felt threatened by. That's what I was illustrating. If you'd paid attention in BTSC you'd know we were never comfortable in that damned game.

[Epignosis]

Your championship shit doesn't work here.

How the hell would you know?

What he means is, 'it doesn't work with him'.

Which it doesn't. But I called that shot a long time ago.

What I mean is, "Does it work on The Syndicate?"

It works the same everywhere. It's good because it works even when players are bussing and deliberately trying to combat it. It relies on a strong town working on it together.

The point of it is to completely switch the game from looking for scum to looking for town. Not exclusively, but much more effort than is put on it here. By spending your time articulating why people are town and critiquing others arguments for why people are town, you create a pool of people who are very probably town. A baddie might sneak in here and there, but what you are left with catches the bulk of the baddies. If one does sneak through, then you are only looking for one and it's probable you are still able to figure out which people you cleared for the wrong reasons and why.

Essentially, it turns out people are an awful lot better at spotting the things that probably aren't bad, than they are at spotting things that probably are.

Golden, you just answered me like a goddamned salesman. I asked you this: Does it work on The Syndicate? You said, "It works the same everywhere."

That's salesman talk.

And it's bullshit.

If it "worked" everywhere, then mafia would never win.

Get your head out of your ass.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If it "worked" everywhere, then mafia would never win.

Get your head out of your ass.

Golden isn't saying it's impossible to lose while employing this strategy, for fuck's sake. I swear people are being intentionally obtuse in this game.

[Epignosis]

I think I'm right on the money. There's no point in telling me I'm wrong if you won't say why.

I could count on one hand the number of times I've seen a teammate actively try to take the vocal lead in shifting the lynch away from their teammate onto someone else on day 1 when there is a high chance of failure (and indeed failure occurred).

It seems very unlikely to me in the event that they didn't know scotty would start by flipping town, because the risk to Jay would be far too great.
It makes even less sense to me in the event that they did know scotty would flip town, because in my experience noone makes an effort to save their seemer teammate.

That's why it's a great tactic. I use it often.

You're you.

Never knew that.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Never knew that.

The point is that you're a special snowflake. Most people don't play Mafia like you play it. I certainly don't.

[Golden]

Far too warm up there to remove my head.

[Epignosis]

I literally wasn't able to vote. Or comment. Or do anything.

And did I get caught? No I didn't. I won. Like a winner.

Congratulations. I don't know or care what your circumstances were. It was something I suspected, timmer suspected, and Sloonei suspected. You were bad.

Yep. Good job on that suspecting.

Nobody threatened you in Transistor. The civilians were a mess. They didn't even use their damn abilities. Your only threat was The Process.

The civilians had their struggles, but we were not unthreatened. llama and Mac were up my ass all game. Scotty was up MP's ass. Wilgy and Matt were suspicious of Elohcin (I'll spare you the language on that one), and DrumBeats was up K4J's ass. We killed people we felt threatened by. That's what I was illustrating. If you'd paid attention in BTSC you'd know we were never comfortable in that damned game.

No bad team is ever comfortable in my games because they never know what to expect. I keep it that way. You clowns had it easy and were on the road to a win for most of the game. The Process gave you some trouble but you kept them in check and the civilians were a mess.

Transistor was one of the easiest mafia wins I've ever seen.

[Golden]

Transistor was one of the easiest mafia wins I've ever seen.

So, you suspect Jay because he won Transistor easily?

I mean, really, what's the argument here... that Jay is lying when he says he makes his kills count? If that was an easy win, surely it's a game where he could throw a couple of meaningless nightkills away. If he took every nightkill that seriously in a game when the mafia had it easy, don't you think he'd take it even more seriously when they were down to two and he was under the pump?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

No bad team is ever comfortable in my games because they never know what to expect. I keep it that way. You clowns had it easy and were on the road to a win for most of the game. The Process gave you some trouble but you kept them in check and the civilians were a mess.

Transistor was one of the easiest mafia wins I've ever seen.

I don't think this is relevant anymore. My point was that our kills all had a distinct purpose, they all were approved by my arrogant bossy ass, and that neither Boomslang nor DrWilgy would be a JJJ-approved kill.

[Epignosis]

Tell you what.

I'm going to sit back. You genius tell me whom to vote, and I'll vote.

[Epignosis]

Transistor was one of the easiest mafia wins I've ever seen.

So, you suspect Jay because he won Transistor easily?

I mean, really, what's the argument here... that Jay is lying when he says he makes his kills count? If that was an easy win, surely it's a game where he could throw a couple of meaningless nightkills away. If he took every nightkill that seriously in a game when the mafia had it easy, don't you think he'd take it even more seriously when they were down to two and he was under the pump?

[Golden]

Tell you what.

I'm going to sit back. You genius tell me whom to vote, and I'll vote.

As I already noted, no-one is the sheriff of you, epi. Vote for who you want to vote for. YOU be accountable for your vote.

[Epignosis]

No bad team is ever comfortable in my games because they never know what to expect. I keep it that way. You clowns had it easy and were on the road to a win for most of the game. The Process gave you some trouble but you kept them in check and the civilians were a mess.

Transistor was one of the easiest mafia wins I've ever seen.

I don't think this is relevant anymore. My point was that our kills all had a distinct purpose, they all were approved by my arrogant bossy ass, and that neither Boomslang nor DrWilgy would be a JJJ-approved kill.

And you're missing my point. Any mafia worth its salt can strategically kill.

You can strategically kill, can't you?

[Golden]

Transistor was one of the easiest mafia wins I've ever seen.

So, you suspect Jay because he won Transistor easily?

I mean, really, what's the argument here... that Jay is lying when he says he makes his kills count? If that was an easy win, surely it's a game where he could throw a couple of meaningless nightkills away. If he took every nightkill that seriously in a game when the mafia had it easy, don't you think he'd take it even more seriously when they were down to two and he was under the pump?

Exactly.

[Epignosis]

Tell you what.

I'm going to sit back. You genius tell me whom to vote, and I'll vote.

As I already noted, no-one is the sheriff of you, epi. Vote for who you want to vote for. YOU be accountable for your vote.

Like you're going to be with that 100% Quin is bad nonsense.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

And you're missing my point. Any mafia worth its salt can strategically kill.

You can strategically kill, can't you?

You're missing mine apparently, because that is not a logical rebuttal to what I am saying.

"My night kills are motivated by specific strategies and mindsets. Neither of these night kills is suitable."

"Anyone can night kill strategically."

What?

[Golden]

Tell you what.

I'm going to sit back. You genius tell me whom to vote, and I'll vote.

As I already noted, no-one is the sheriff of you, epi. Vote for who you want to vote for. YOU be accountable for your vote.

Like you're going to be with that 100% Quin is bad nonsense.

I am accountable for my vote. I think it was the right vote. I still think it was the right vote. I will think it was the right vote until the end of time. I'm quite happy being accountable for it.

I'm not going to be accountable for the other four people who voted that way, which you and inh seem to want me to be.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Tell you what.

I'm going to sit back. You genius tell me whom to vote, and I'll vote.

As I already noted, no-one is the sheriff of you, epi. Vote for who you want to vote for. YOU be accountable for your vote.

Like you're going to be with that 100% Quin is bad nonsense.

It's fun because your vote was no better by any metric.

[Epignosis]

And you're missing my point. Any mafia worth its salt can strategically kill.

You can strategically kill, can't you?

You're missing mine apparently, because that is not a logical rebuttal to what I am saying.

"My night kills are motivated by specific strategies and mindsets. Neither of these night kills is suitable."

"Anyone can night kill strategically."

What?

I kill people who either threaten me or a team mate of mine, players who are the least likely to be lynched or the most difficult to lynch, or players whose deaths I feel are to reflect poorly on someone else. You can check every Transistor kill my team committed and I could explain how it fits that description. What I don't do is kill people who are on the mislynch block who offer no strategic benefit if killed (Boomslang and DrWilgy both fit this description) -- I think it's a stupid play and I have never been on a scum team that behaves that way (primarily because my kill preferences tend to influence the teams' eventual choices).

I don't give a damn what you say your kills are. That's my entire point. You're capable of maintaining your strategy or adaptable, the same as I am.

[Epignosis]

Tell you what.

I'm going to sit back. You genius tell me whom to vote, and I'll vote.

As I already noted, no-one is the sheriff of you, epi. Vote for who you want to vote for. YOU be accountable for your vote.

Like you're going to be with that 100% Quin is bad nonsense.

I am accountable for my vote. I think it was the right vote. I still think it was the right vote. I will think it was the right vote until the end of time. I'm quite happy being accountable for it.

I'm not going to be accountable for the other four people who voted that way, which you and inh seem to want me to be.

It was the wrong vote Mr. Champion.

[Epignosis]

Am I just delusional?

Is lynching civilians the way you win Mafia anymore?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't give a damn what you say your kills are. That's my entire point. You're capable of maintaining your strategy or adaptable, the same as I am.

I have no reason to "adapt" if nobody has a clue what I do in the first place, particularly when everyone around here is so terrified of making a judgment of any WIFOM assertion. I haven't changed that methodology in my Mafia "career" because it has always worked. I'll probably do it again the next time I'm bad. If anyone suspects me for it, nobody will take them seriously because wouldn't he adapt?.

[Epignosis]

I'm having one more beer and going to bed. I don't understand this "Championesque" nonsense or how it works. I think it's pretentious and isn't going to prove successful here.

[Epignosis]

I don't give a damn what you say your kills are. That's my entire point. You're capable of maintaining your strategy or adaptable, the same as I am.

I have no reason to "adapt" if nobody has a clue what I do in the first place, particularly when everyone around here is so terrified of making a judgment of any WIFOM assertion. I haven't changed that methodology in my Mafia "career" because it has always worked. I'll probably do it again the next time I'm bad. If anyone suspects me for it, nobody will take them seriously because wouldn't he adapt?.

Kills are conditional. You're acting like they aren't, like you have some set way to off people.

[Golden]

Am I just delusional?

Yes, you're just delusional.

You're trying to force Jay into a box of making subpar plays in the name of 'adaptability', just because you want him to be bad.

You refuse to understand another way of playing, just because you don't want another way of playing to be valid and you like playing the way you are playing.

But let me put it simply for you...

Imagine you have two apples. You know that after two days, you will eat both apples.

It turns out the first apple you try to eat has gone bad and you have to throw it away. You bemoan attempting to eat the apple as 'the wrong decision' and spend all your time the next day talking about how you should have eaten the other apple instead...

When all you actually did was eat the bad apple one day before you would have otherwise.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm having one more beer and going to bed. I don't understand this "Championesque" nonsense or how it works. I think it's pretentious and isn't going to prove successful here.

Fair prediction, but I don't understand how you can make it without even giving it a chance first.

[Golden]

I don't want to try to understand this "Championesque" nonsense or how it works, because I'm perfectly happy with the way things are already.

Fixed that for you.

[Epignosis]

Am I just delusional?

Yes, you're just delusional.

You're trying to force Jay into a box of making subpar plays in the name of 'adaptability', just because you want him to be bad.

You refuse to understand another way of playing, just because you don't want another way of playing to be valid and you like playing the way you are playing.

But let me put it simply for you...

Imagine you have two apples. You know that after two days, you will eat both apples.

It turns out the first apple you try to eat has gone bad and you have to throw it away. You bemoan attempting to eat the apple as 'the wrong decision' and spend all your time the next day talking about how you should have eaten the other apple instead...

When all you actually did was eat the bad apple one day before you would have otherwise.

I'll make it plain then, and I'm sorry to resort to this kind of thing but, you've caught no mafia. None. I look at language and call people out on their bullshit.

Therefore my methods are better.

Lynch 3J next. He tried his damnedest to save Scotty, INH gets it, and you are trying to discredit him. Why?

Hey Jay: It's called results. I got results. You didn't. Golden didn't. Neener Neener.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Kills are conditional. You're acting like they aren't, like you have some set way to off people.

I told you what the most important conditions are that impact who I want to kill. The vast majority of my kills fall within those parameters. There are exceptions to every rule. If people want to say that Boomslang/DrWilgy were one such exception, fine. Be my guest. Just understand that the case is already reaching into the realm of the improbable from that moment.

If you don't believe me, well shit. We're playing Mafia. That's how it goes.

[Golden]

Am I just delusional?

Yes, you're just delusional.

You're trying to force Jay into a box of making subpar plays in the name of 'adaptability', just because you want him to be bad.

You refuse to understand another way of playing, just because you don't want another way of playing to be valid and you like playing the way you are playing.

But let me put it simply for you...

Imagine you have two apples. You know that after two days, you will eat both apples.

It turns out the first apple you try to eat has gone bad and you have to throw it away. You bemoan attempting to eat the apple as 'the wrong decision' and spend all your time the next day talking about how you should have eaten the other apple instead...

When all you actually did was eat the bad apple one day before you would have otherwise.

I'll make it plain then, and I'm sorry to resort to this kind of thing but, you've caught no mafia. None. I look at language and call people out on their bullshit.

Therefore my methods are better.

Lynch 3J next. He tried his damnedest to save Scotty, INH gets it, and you are trying to discredit him. Why?

Hey Jay: It's called results. I got results. You didn't. Golden didn't. Neener Neener.

Lol. Was on Scotty before you. Neener Neener.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Hey Jay: It's called results. I got results. You didn't. Golden didn't. Neener Neener.

Okay, judge an entire strategic mindset based on two lynches.

[Epignosis]

Exceptions to every rule. Thanks for telling me NOTHING 3J.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Exceptions to every rule. Thanks for telling me NOTHING 3J.

I've told you a great many things. You've ignored all of them. That's your choice.

[Epignosis]

Am I just delusional?

Yes, you're just delusional.

You're trying to force Jay into a box of making subpar plays in the name of 'adaptability', just because you want him to be bad.

You refuse to understand another way of playing, just because you don't want another way of playing to be valid and you like playing the way you are playing.

But let me put it simply for you...

Imagine you have two apples. You know that after two days, you will eat both apples.

It turns out the first apple you try to eat has gone bad and you have to throw it away. You bemoan attempting to eat the apple as 'the wrong decision' and spend all your time the next day talking about how you should have eaten the other apple instead...

When all you actually did was eat the bad apple one day before you would have otherwise.

I'll make it plain then, and I'm sorry to resort to this kind of thing but, you've caught no mafia. None. I look at language and call people out on their bullshit.

Therefore my methods are better.

Lynch 3J next. He tried his damnedest to save Scotty, INH gets it, and you are trying to discredit him. Why?

Hey Jay: It's called results. I got results. You didn't. Golden didn't. Neener Neener.

Lol. Was on Scotty before you. Neener Neener.

And I don't suspect you.

But which of your methods caught him?

[Golden]

Lynch 3J next. He tried his damnedest to save Scotty, INH gets it, and you are trying to discredit him. Why?

Looked at Jay's defence of inh, I think inh is town. So I've moved on.

You still seem to think 'he tried his damndest to save scotty' is a good reason to read him as bad, even though I pointed out its very rare and not a very good indicator. Your response to that was simply 'that's why it's a good tactic'.

So essentially, you think Jay is bad because you agree with me that its rare that baddies do what he does but you think thats why it would be a good tactic for Jay to do it.

Your case is shit, its myopic, and you actually aren't trying to solve the game.

Chances of you being bad are at this point much higher than chances that inh is bad.

[Epignosis]

Exceptions to every rule. Thanks for telling me NOTHING 3J.

I've told you a great many things. You've ignored all of them. That's your choice.

Sounds like you suspect me.

Better put a vote on it.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Exceptions to every rule. Thanks for telling me NOTHING 3J.

I've told you a great many things. You've ignored all of them. That's your choice.

Sounds like you suspect me.

Better put a vote on it.

No it doesn't. I think you're being an ignorant townie. Ignorant townies exist in every game.

[Golden]

But which of your methods caught him?

I'm not using more than one method.

[Epignosis]

Exceptions to every rule. Thanks for telling me NOTHING 3J.

I've told you a great many things. You've ignored all of them. That's your choice.

Sounds like you suspect me.

Better put a vote on it.

No it doesn't. I think you're being an ignorant townie. Ignorant townies exist in every game.

Teach me O Tired Jimmy Jay

[JaggedJimmyJay]

So essentially, you think Jay is bad because you agree with me that its rare that baddies do what he does but you think thats why it would be a good tactic for Jay to do it.

Your case is shit, its myopic, and you actually aren't trying to solve the game.

Chances of you being bad are at this point much higher than chances that inh is bad.

Fair point. Maybe I'll change my mind.