The Syndicate

Crooked Timmer! LIES. Pretending to catch up. BTSC helping him maybe!

Timmer sees collusion between me and Long Con to cover up for his own collfefe

I just saw on the television that Zodiac Killer might have been timmer!

I heard some very very very smart people think Timmer could even collude!

I see you Neverwhere!

Golden wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:22 am I see you Neverwhere!

Sorry Golden

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:24 pm Poor Dom...

Golden, you behind all the evil in the world bro?

It's not impossible that this is true, indirectly speaking. I can't help it if I inspire evil even when I'm not a baddie

Neverwhere wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:28 am

Golden wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:22 am I see you Neverwhere!

Sorry Golden

You can only do what you can do!

I have very limited time this day phase to read or comment. I'll do what I can, but realistically don't expect to see much of me between now and deadline.

I'm intrigued by Rico's abundant certainty on INH... it's the kind of thing I have a tendency to follow on faith alone because he's acting how I would act when I was real certain. However, Rico has also shown no sign of backing off me despite being wrong about that, so I'm not sure how sure I should feel.

I don't feel good about Tony and am considering a vote there. I also am looking forward to timmer's contribution now that he has caught up (which is a way of saying, I'm no longer giving him slack, and will be looking for further signs of Deborah).

I'm hoping to see a reduction in Wilgy's enigma. He started off strong but it's dwindling.

Dom is someone I'm still in two minds about, the paranoia in me is strong. But I don't intend to pursue him while he's cursed.

People I won't be voting today unless something very serious changes: Boomslang, dom, Eloh, Epi, Jack, LoRab, Rico, sppedchuck, sprityo.

So does anyone have any thoughts about Rico being silenced? It seems weird. First one team curses him, then the other silences him. Of course, the curse could be for the weird novelty thing that's going on, but the silencing comes from the other team.

Rico's big targets have been Golden and INH. He thinks INH is behind the hexing, but the silence comes from the other team. It doesn't even work as a frame job.

Who else has Rico suspected? TSP, as of his last readlist. With a few sideeyes

Dom wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:08 am

OMG /dead.

Dom wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:55 am Crooked Timmer says that he read. If he did, he would know that Epi had this theory before!

Homie, I read, but I read fast, lol. And I don't plan on voting you while you are insanified. But there was something to you and LC in your posts that I felt was worth pointing out.

WRONG

Are my thoughts fake news?

FRAUD NEWS IS THE MODERN PRESIDENTIAL TERM

speedchuck wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:18 am So does anyone have any thoughts about Rico being silenced? It seems weird. First one team curses him, then the other silences him. Of course, the curse could be for the weird novelty thing that's going on, but the silencing comes from the other team.

Rico's big targets have been Golden and INH. He thinks INH is behind the hexing, but the silence comes from the other team. It doesn't even work as a frame job.

Who else has Rico suspected? TSP, as of his last readlist. With a few sideeyes

Rico silenced would also put him on the list of people both mafia had targeted, making him a strong town guess. That makes me slightly leery. Night 1 double target of JOH seems like a coincidence. Lots of people target JOH. But the StrexCorp would I think typically avoid silencing a suspect for their mafia. So Rico being silenced isn't going to make me view him as any more townie.

Epignosis wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:40 pm

insertnamehere wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:35 pm Epi, for the second time, can you verbalize your stance on me? I asked you yesterday, and you completely brushed me off.

I'd extend that question to everyone who has bandied about my name. Give me a case or some substance to respond to at least.

Imma gonna ISO Epi.

I think you and your team cursed Ricochet. I know people want to write off the Poppy business, but I came in here at one point to say exactly what Ricochet had already said regarding the curse. Someone who played Blue Velvet is on the cursing team. I sure as hell didn't curse Rico with that nonsense, and Long Con didn't. I think you did. It's that simple. Is it a sexy case? No. But it doesn't have to be sexy to be right.

Protip: Next time pick a curse nobody can link you to. Ask your teammate Jack for suggestions.

I, too, had thought of this and mentioned it wjen I first read of Rico's curse. As soon as I found out about the Poppy thing being linked to a previous game, I knew it had to be someone who played that game to do such a curse. The question is, who all was in blue velvet that is here. Is INH and LC the only two? I never got a response when I brought this up before.

Gah...4 pages to read.... I'll get to some now and more after my workout.

Tony, walk me through your last second vote on INH, again. Convince me that wasn't an attempt to save TSP.

Basically on board w/ everything Golden has said (sorry if that gets you nightkilled). The strongest reason I suspect INH is now the idea that Rico may have info on him and just isn't saying.

I'd prefer to lynch Epi or Tony as LC teammates but I generally don't think they are w/w. But maybe... Epi's push on Tony looked opportunistic and I said as much earlier. But "opportunistic" just means "dishonest for the easy lynch." Could have been "dishonest to distance."

Another possibility is Epi w/ Rico. LC was a rokechecker and may have role checked INH. So the "gain town cred" theory. Rico and Tony seems less likely because Tony didn't back up the initial INH push.

LC's team has a silencer so if Rico silenced, makes him less likely to be LC's teammate. If you're gonna continue to push INH for cred, why silence yourself? Actually, I'm roughly 90% certain an Epi/Rico/LC team is impossible.

What about Dom?

If we assume Rico is good (info gather or not), Epi is being honest about his reasons for voting INH (though perhaps not his reasons for not voting LC). This means the "lynch INH for cred" theory is less likely so the "Dom is bad" or "there was no save attempt" are more likely scenarios.

I'm gonna work with the idea that Rico is good or at least YMaf. That seems solid. Plus, Rico was semi on LC's butt. Also going to assume Rico wasn't role checked and followed for that reason. Just based on probability.

So maybe Epi and Dom. Maybe Dom and Tony. Not Epi and Tony cause they'd have just voted Dom. Maybe just Tony and somebody else. Probably not Epi and someone other than Dom. Probably.



As far as curses go, the curser choose a second referenced post restriction. Why further self incriminate? WIFOM.

*Save LC

I've talked myself into voting Tony over Epi.

I dislike Epi's straw man arguement against me but I can really only see him bad with Dom if he's PMaf.

Elohcin wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:20 pm I, too, had thought of this and mentioned it wjen I first read of Rico's curse. As soon as I found out about the Poppy thing being linked to a previous game, I knew it had to be someone who played that game to do such a curse. The question is, who all was in blue velvet that is here. Is INH and LC the only two? I never got a response when I brought this up before.

Gah...4 pages to read.... I'll get to some now and more after my workout.

You didn't read my immediate response to Epi's post.

insertnamehere wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:48 pm So, you think someone who was in BV must be on the cursing team. LC was in Blue Velvet. So was Speedchuck, Wilgy, Timmer, Sprityo, and of course Ricochet.

Why does it have to be me and not one of the many other people involved in that game?

Who is more likely to do a self reference post restriction?

INH? Or someone wanting him dead.

@Hostsquid

Does the mafia hit count as a night action?

That is, could a mafia silencer silence and kill in the same night?

I'm assuming yes based on ASOUE

(Yes as in they could do both, I mean.)

I've been lowkey suspecting that whoever the Faceless Old Woman is would curse themselves early on in a distinctive way that they can pin on someone else.

It both draws suspicion away from them and places it onto a pre-chosen patsy.

speedchuck wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:18 am So does anyone have any thoughts about Rico being silenced? It seems weird. First one team curses him, then the other silences him. Of course, the curse could be for the weird novelty thing that's going on, but the silencing comes from the other team.

Rico's big targets have been Golden and INH. He thinks INH is behind the hexing, but the silence comes from the other team. It doesn't even work as a frame job.

Who else has Rico suspected? TSP, as of his last readlist. With a few sideeyes

Seems like either a "this would be hilarous" choice or a "let's pick an unlikely target so every talks about why we did it" choice.

linkitis: So, (living) players who were in both Romance of the Three and Blue Velvet (assuming INH provided an accurate list): INH, Wilgy, Timmer, and Rico. Also Dom, who was the mod for Blue Velvet.

And, having just scanned the beginning of blue velvet, I now see that Rico also made up poppy as a self-imposed thing. So, both are not just things that the player was cursed with, but something that they both started doing on their own. So, it really has to be something who was involved in both games.

insertnamehere wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:27 pm

Elohcin wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:20 pm I, too, had thought of this and mentioned it wjen I first read of Rico's curse. As soon as I found out about the Poppy thing being linked to a previous game, I knew it had to be someone who played that game to do such a curse. The question is, who all was in blue velvet that is here. Is INH and LC the only two? I never got a response when I brought this up before.

Gah...4 pages to read.... I'll get to some now and more after my workout.

You didn't read my immediate response to Epi's post.

insertnamehere wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:48 pm So, you think someone who was in BV must be on the cursing team. LC was in Blue Velvet. So was Speedchuck, Wilgy, Timmer, Sprityo, and of course Ricochet.

Why does it have to be me and not one of the many other people involved in that game?

It DOESN'T have to be you. That's why I wanted to get a list of those it could be. Now......who among speedchuck, wilgy, timmer, sprit, and you were in romance of the three kingdoms? I'm about to go look. cursing pattern is intriguing me.

One one that was involved in one and someone else who was involved in the other.

Those in both BV AND ROTTK who haven't been cursed this game and who are still alive: INH, Wilgy, and timmer. So...
Eggs are yummy,
With spinach and cheese.
Today I'll be voting
One of these.

That's a good point, Jack, that there could be someone on the team who was in 1 game and someone else who was in the other. Here's a list of all the potentials (of living players):

People involved in both games:
INH, Wilgy, Timmer, Rico, Dom, and Epi
Missed Epi when I made the list earlier--INH hadn't mentioned him when he posted his list of who had played Blue Velvet. He also missed Dom (who I listed, but didn't point out that INH skipped him), who modded the game.

(Eloh included only those not cursed, but I could see someone cursing themselves, so I'm included them)

People in Blue Velvet:
INH
Speedchuck
Wilgy
Timmer
Sprityo
Rico
Epi
Dom

People in Romance of the Three:
Epi
Boomslang
Dom
Wilgy
Elo
Golden
INH
LoRab
Rico
Timmer

Elohcin wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:19 pm Those in both BV AND ROTTK who haven't been cursed this game and who are still alive: INH, Wilgy, and timmer. So...
Eggs are yummy,
With spinach and cheese.
Today I'll be voting
One of these.

Says you.

Sorry that I haven't been able to play so much been busy for the past two days. Catching up soon.

You can double check my stats, wilgy.

Little Miss Muffet sat on her tuffet
And what a big tuffet she had.
So if you're feeling insecure
Just stand next to her
And then you won't feel quite so bad.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:21 pm Tony, walk me through your last second vote on INH, again. Convince me that wasn't an attempt to save LC.

I've already explained the vote, but I'll walk you through it again from a different side. If you still want me to explain the actual vote again I will.

Continuing your logic, let's assume I'm SMaf with Dom. Dom voted after me, so if he had voted for INH than INH would have five votes on him and would almost certainly be lynched. But this didn't happen. So if the plan was instead bus LC, I could had voted for LC in a vote that looks good since I've been attacking LC since day 1.

I don't see a reality where our votes pan out that way and we are w/w.

So Dom isn't SMaf, at least with me. That leaves you with one theory: SMaf was not trying to save LC. Since I'd have no reason besides being SMaf to try to save LC and if I was SMaf I was not trying to save LC, I was not trying to save LC. QED

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:28 pm Who is more likely to do a self reference post restriction?

INH? Or someone wanting him dead.

@Hostsquid

Does the mafia hit count as a night action?

That is, could a mafia silencer silence and kill in the same night?

I'm assuming yes based on ASOUE

Yes. Mafia teams can complete their role-listed actions each night, and a kill in addition to those actions on their assigned nights.

Is it really not conceivable to anyone other myself that someone who wasn't directly linked to one of those games either read the thread or was aware of the gimmicks from both games?

I mean, come on. The people insisting that it HAS to be someone who played both games are more than a little suspicious to me right now.

Think of it like this: Rico's curse on D2 attracted a crazy amount of heat for people involved with Blue Velvet. By intentionally choosing to do the same thing with Dom and Rot3k, they're essentially designing a Venn Diagram of people they want us to look at.

Odds are seeming higher and higher to me that the Faceless Old Woman was involved with one at most of these games, and researched gimmicks players used in games she wasn't in to mislead the town and cause mislynches.

There are two possible motives FOW has for cursing people with old-game-specific posting restrictions: Sheer fuckery, or to mislead the town.

I believe it to be the latter.

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:00 pm Little Miss Muffet sat on her tuffet
And what a big tuffet she had.
So if you're feeling insecure
Just stand next to her
And then you won't feel quite so bad.

Hey... it's not nice to make fun of eloh.

insertnamehere wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:22 pm Is it really not conceivable to anyone other myself that someone who wasn't directly linked to one of those games either read the thread or was aware of the gimmicks from both games?

I mean, come on. The people insisting that it HAS to be someone who played both games are more than a little suspicious to me right now.

Think of it like this: Rico's curse on D2 attracted a crazy amount of heat for people involved with Blue Velvet. By intentionally choosing to do the same thing with Dom and Rot3k, they're essentially designing a Venn Diagram of people they want us to look at.

Odds are seeming higher and higher to me that the Faceless Old Woman was involved with one at most of these games, and researched gimmicks players used in games she wasn't in to mislead the town and cause mislynches.

There are two possible motives FOW has for cursing people with old-game-specific posting restrictions: Sheer fuckery, or to mislead the town.

I believe it to be the latter.

Maybe more likely in neither, or teammates were in on a game and suggested quirks. It rules out a mafia team of me/Jack/neverwhere, but as far as I can see it stops exactly that.

Elohcin wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:58 pm You can double check my stats, wilgy.

If you look at the lists I posted above, I already did that.
You missed Epi. To be fair, INH had missed him first, and I assume you were basing off his list.

Also, what do you think about Jack's thought that there could be 2 different players on the team who were each in one of the games?

insertnamehere wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:22 pm Is it really not conceivable to anyone other myself that someone who wasn't directly linked to one of those games either read the thread or was aware of the gimmicks from both games?

I mean, come on. The people insisting that it HAS to be someone who played both games are more than a little suspicious to me right now.

Think of it like this: Rico's curse on D2 attracted a crazy amount of heat for people involved with Blue Velvet. By intentionally choosing to do the same thing with Dom and Rot3k, they're essentially designing a Venn Diagram of people they want us to look at.

Odds are seeming higher and higher to me that the Faceless Old Woman was involved with one at most of these games, and researched gimmicks players used in games she wasn't in to mislead the town and cause mislynches.

There are two possible motives FOW has for cursing people with old-game-specific posting restrictions: Sheer fuckery, or to mislead the town.

I believe it to be the latter.

It seems unlikely, to me, that someone following a game and not playing would know that 2 different self-imposed posts were a thing in 2 different games. I get what you're saying, but I think that it's likely that there are people on that team who were in both games. It's not just that they were both posting restrictions from old games--they were both self imposed restrictions.

I think you're trying to steer us away from those people, which isn't making me feel very good about you.

LoRab wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:33 pm

Elohcin wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:58 pm You can double check my stats, wilgy.

If you look at the lists I posted above, I already did that.
You missed Epi. To be fair, INH had missed him first, and I assume you were basing off his list.

Also, what do you think about Jack's thought that there could be 2 different players on the team who were each in one of the games?

insertnamehere wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:22 pm Is it really not conceivable to anyone other myself that someone who wasn't directly linked to one of those games either read the thread or was aware of the gimmicks from both games?

I mean, come on. The people insisting that it HAS to be someone who played both games are more than a little suspicious to me right now.

Think of it like this: Rico's curse on D2 attracted a crazy amount of heat for people involved with Blue Velvet. By intentionally choosing to do the same thing with Dom and Rot3k, they're essentially designing a Venn Diagram of people they want us to look at.

Odds are seeming higher and higher to me that the Faceless Old Woman was involved with one at most of these games, and researched gimmicks players used in games she wasn't in to mislead the town and cause mislynches.

There are two possible motives FOW has for cursing people with old-game-specific posting restrictions: Sheer fuckery, or to mislead the town.

I believe it to be the latter.

It seems unlikely, to me, that someone following a game and not playing would know that 2 different self-imposed posts were a thing in 2 different games. I get what you're saying, but I think that it's likely that there are people on that team who were in both games. It's not just that they were both posting restrictions from old games--they were both self imposed restrictions.

I think you're trying to steer us away from those people, which isn't making me feel very good about you.

On the flip, I think you are trying to steer us toward those people, which isn't making me feel very good about you.

LoRab wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:33 pm

insertnamehere wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:22 pm There are two possible motives FOW has for cursing people with old-game-specific posting restrictions: Sheer fuckery, or to mislead the town.

I believe it to be the latter.

I think you're trying to steer us away from those people, which isn't making me feel very good about you.

See, this is the problem I've been having ever since Trump opened his mouth.

I tend to agree with INH's theory, but it could really go both ways. I don't like scum misleading us, and either the curses are doing that or INH is possibly scum and is reverse misleading us.

In any case, we're being presented with curses that we can ignore, rather than curses that limit conversation. In the interest of not being misled, I'm going to do just that. For the most part, ignore the curses.

I would be surprised if this all started without at least one player from one of the games on FOW's team.

TonyStarkPrime wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:40 pm

LoRab wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:33 pm

Elohcin wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:58 pm You can double check my stats, wilgy.

If you look at the lists I posted above, I already did that.
You missed Epi. To be fair, INH had missed him first, and I assume you were basing off his list.

Also, what do you think about Jack's thought that there could be 2 different players on the team who were each in one of the games?

insertnamehere wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:22 pm Is it really not conceivable to anyone other myself that someone who wasn't directly linked to one of those games either read the thread or was aware of the gimmicks from both games?

I mean, come on. The people insisting that it HAS to be someone who played both games are more than a little suspicious to me right now.

Think of it like this: Rico's curse on D2 attracted a crazy amount of heat for people involved with Blue Velvet. By intentionally choosing to do the same thing with Dom and Rot3k, they're essentially designing a Venn Diagram of people they want us to look at.

Odds are seeming higher and higher to me that the Faceless Old Woman was involved with one at most of these games, and researched gimmicks players used in games she wasn't in to mislead the town and cause mislynches.

There are two possible motives FOW has for cursing people with old-game-specific posting restrictions: Sheer fuckery, or to mislead the town.

I believe it to be the latter.

It seems unlikely, to me, that someone following a game and not playing would know that 2 different self-imposed posts were a thing in 2 different games. I get what you're saying, but I think that it's likely that there are people on that team who were in both games. It's not just that they were both posting restrictions from old games--they were both self imposed restrictions.

I think you're trying to steer us away from those people, which isn't making me feel very good about you.

On the flip, I think you are trying to steer us toward those people, which isn't making me feel very good about you.

I mean, eye me all you want. I'm good with that. But I made a list of 12 out of 15 living players. Who am I trying to steer anyone towards by contemplating the list?

Here is the list of players who played in both games, collectively:

INH
Speedchuck
Wilgy
Timmer
Sprityo
Rico
Epi
Boomslang
Dom
Elo
Golden
LoRab

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:21 pmAs far as curses go, the curser choose a second referenced post restriction. Why further self incriminate? WIFOM.

Dom talked about that curse in this game. I can't see it as incriminating.

LoRab wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:35 pm That's a good point, Jack, that there could be someone on the team who was in 1 game and someone else who was in the other. Here's a list of all the potentials (of living players):

People involved in both games:
INH, Wilgy, Timmer, Rico, Dom, and Epi
Missed Epi when I made the list earlier--INH hadn't mentioned him when he posted his list of who had played Blue Velvet. He also missed Dom (who I listed, but didn't point out that INH skipped him), who modded the game.

(Eloh included only those not cursed, but I could see someone cursing themselves, so I'm included them)

People in Blue Velvet:
INH
Speedchuck
Wilgy
Timmer
Sprityo
Rico
Epi
Dom

People in Romance of the Three:
Epi
Boomslang
Dom
Wilgy
Elo
Golden
INH
LoRab
Rico
Timmer

I have zero recollection of playing in a game called Romance of the Three? I must have been killed off early? And I hadn't even checked into the game when the first insanification happened, I believe, so I'd say that contexts matters if you are using the past to combat the present.

Plus, this line of thinking ignores that a baddie team is a TEAM, thus you just need one member to have played one game, and one member to have played the other.

Elohcin wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:19 pm Those in both BV AND ROTTK who haven't been cursed this game and who are still alive: INH, Wilgy, and timmer. So...
Eggs are yummy,
With spinach and cheese.
Today I'll be voting
One of these.

Here again, I was not even aware that this game had started when the first insanification happened, so a big ol' on people trying to put me on a list of suspects for this.

timmer wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:03 pm

LoRab wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:35 pm That's a good point, Jack, that there could be someone on the team who was in 1 game and someone else who was in the other. Here's a list of all the potentials (of living players):

People involved in both games:
INH, Wilgy, Timmer, Rico, Dom, and Epi
Missed Epi when I made the list earlier--INH hadn't mentioned him when he posted his list of who had played Blue Velvet. He also missed Dom (who I listed, but didn't point out that INH skipped him), who modded the game.

(Eloh included only those not cursed, but I could see someone cursing themselves, so I'm included them)

People in Blue Velvet:
INH
Speedchuck
Wilgy
Timmer
Sprityo
Rico
Epi
Dom

People in Romance of the Three:
Epi
Boomslang
Dom
Wilgy
Elo
Golden
INH
LoRab
Rico
Timmer

I have zero recollection of playing in a game called Romance of the Three? I must have been killed off early? And I hadn't even checked into the game when the first insanification happened, I believe, so I'd say that contexts matters if you are using the past to combat the present.

Plus, this line of thinking ignores that a baddie team is a TEAM, thus you just need one member to have played one game, and one member to have played the other.

I don't find you suspicious, Timmer. Of all the people on here, I'm not (currently) concerned with you. I don't really have a read on you one way or the other, but I think you're more likely to be civ.

And that's exactly the point I was making, and the reason I included both lists.

Golden wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:01 pm

Jackofhearts2005 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:21 pmAs far as curses go, the curser choose a second referenced post restriction. Why further self incriminate? WIFOM.

Dom talked about that curse in this game. I can't see it as incriminating.

Ah. I didn't realize that.

But I do think some interesting conversation came out of compiling the lists, so yay.

timmer, I'm looking at the votes. You've missed both Day phase votes, but voted in the Night phase. I know you said you weren't aware anything had started for the first vote, but did you say why you missed the second vote? If you had voted Day 1 and 2, who would you have voted for and why?

Yeah, conversation is def. good, I had forgotten howfast these speed games move.

@Epi, I don't think I covered it, but I wasn't present in the game for the first vote, and the second vote I hadn't yet caught up, so I didn't see how randomly throwing out a vote would help. As for the night poll, it seemed like a typical night poll, so I just grabbed a spot, I don't even remember what my opition was.

Reading back, day 1 I would have essentially randomed my vote if I were here, there was nothing in my read that would have caught my attention. As for yesterday? I'm not sure. I don't think I'd have voted LC, so good on those who did.

For today, I'm still unsure. I ended up reading damn fast, and I'm at work. I won't be leading any charges today, for sure, but once others do, I'll find the time to ISO their suspicions and make a udgment.