The Syndicate

And what about vibes, alison? does your logic account for vibes

and playstyle differences

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:09 pm

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:07 pm And I don't believe that.

That isn't factually established.

It is because if Kyle goes to F3 then town has to exe him due to the fact that he's the only one in the game who hasn't buried a mafia member

The only way your play wins is if you're right about Kyle being town AND town gets there on him at F3 despite the fact that he was hard POE'd yesterday and the wagon was deviated from him to exe a townie AND everyone else has buried a mafia member and he hasn't

Please think about how town's win condition is achieved instead of treating the poll as a glorified readslist

You really don't think people have different values for how persuasive, towny, or scummy must be?

How boring must a game become. Not to mention, I don't think its impossible for scum to bus; I believe that implies nobody here will think of bussing.

The fact that you're using it to such great lengths as towny AI assertively bothers me as well. You're using it to justify Kyle's execution; not why you're town.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:13 pm And what about vibes, alison? does your logic account for vibes

I don't want to live in a world where people vote based on vibes at F3. If that's the way you want to play it then you might as well rand the exes because that's what your reads are going to be like at this point.

Why is it so fucking difficult to just play the game properly instead of ruining endgames because of ego and selfishness

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:14 pm You're using it to justify Kyle's execution; not just why you're town.

ebwop

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:14 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:09 pm

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:07 pm And I don't believe that.

That isn't factually established.

It is because if Kyle goes to F3 then town has to exe him due to the fact that he's the only one in the game who hasn't buried a mafia member

The only way your play wins is if you're right about Kyle being town AND town gets there on him at F3 despite the fact that he was hard POE'd yesterday and the wagon was deviated from him to exe a townie AND everyone else has buried a mafia member and he hasn't

Please think about how town's win condition is achieved instead of treating the poll as a glorified readslist

You really don't think people have different values for how persuasive, towny, or scummy must be?

How boring must a game become. Not to mention, I don't think its impossible for scum to bus; I believe that implies nobody here will think of bussing.

The fact that you're using it to such great lengths as towny AI assertively bothers me as well. You're using it to justify Kyle's execution; not why you're town.

No I think there's a chance mafia bussed

It's just that before you can start digging into "who bussed?" you should first get rid of the people who don't have any pelts, and then when you've proven that mafia bussed then you can start figuring out who it was. Rather than just throw everything to the wind and picking some random interaction and staking the game off that.

Yes I'm trying to convince everyone else to execute Kyle because that's the proper way to play mafia. Jesus Christ.

You know what, I give up. I'm not going to talk to a brick wall and if you're mafia you're never going to be convinced by it anyway.

My POE is Kyle -> Martin and I'm locking that in. BK/ts account can claim their wins right now if they're scum and well played to them in that scenario.

I'm sticking to that and if everyone else decides not to see reason then that's on them.

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:11 pm If Kyle is town then it's correct to prove that today and do the real solving tomorrow - because there's no mechanics in the game that can prove Kyle's innocence despite having the highest scum equity, the only way to conclusively prove that he is in fact town is to exe him. This means that Kyle should be resolved on a day that the town does not lose if he is town. The alternative is bringing him to F3 where is a liability even if he is town because in that world, he will always be unable to clear himself and will place extreme pressure on the other townie just by being alive. It's just not a good play.

Nobody other than kyle is mechanically proven either.

Voting scum or "burying them" is not a gate-way to townie heaven and I have not had a scum game since last August where I did not bus.

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:13 pm

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:09 pm You're so confident in what you think the game state is and what people's views are and the reasons X appears town to others

you seemingly become ignorant of the natural existence that is unpredictability in games

heck the very fact that I'm voting you suggests such and that I'm TR'ing kyle was likely unexpected for you

Making a hero shot on F3 is like hitting on 19 in Blackjack. You just don't do it.

Nobody's doing the hero shooting because a single vote doesn't decide an F3.

Voting out mafia doesn't mean you're town, but if you haven't voted out any mafia then you need to be resolved. That's what I'm saying, it's as clear as day, and you're spinning in 50 circles trying to avoid that.

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:19 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:13 pm

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:09 pm You're so confident in what you think the game state is and what people's views are and the reasons X appears town to others

you seemingly become ignorant of the natural existence that is unpredictability in games

heck the very fact that I'm voting you suggests such and that I'm TR'ing kyle was likely unexpected for you

Making a hero shot on F3 is like hitting on 19 in Blackjack. You just don't do it.

Nobody's doing the hero shooting because a single vote doesn't decide an F3.

Do you know how F3 works?

A single misvote instantly loses the game at F3. Are you aware of this?

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:20 pm Voting out mafia doesn't mean you're town, but if you haven't voted out any mafia then you need to be resolved. That's what I'm saying, it's as clear as day, and you're spinning in 50 circles trying to avoid that.

Then its policy, if you mandatorily resolve everyone who doesn't vote a mafia.

You don't actually scum-read kyle.

Anyways, its entirely possible (in a hypotheyical new game of this) just to do 1 bus, and then have 4-5 towns not on that wagon. Do we just chop all the towns because two mafia were bussing?

Yeah I'm not arguing this with you. I can't force you to play the game the way I want and if you want to make a very simple endgame into a complete shitshow through tinfoil, paranoia and deviating from perfectly good plans then that's your perogative. If this is how you all want to play mafia, if you think this is how towns win games, then it's up to you. I've given you a crystal clear solve and gamesetate analysis + reasoning to back it up. I absolve myself of responsibility for how the game ends up since people are doing shit like making 1/1/1 wagons on F5 and telling themselves "hmm, yes, that is such a great idea, surely this will catch mafia".

Like there should be no policy or mandatory procedure because of mafia deletions.

I don't believe in that and I find it incredibly suspect reasoning especially as a player who has almost always bussed 1 teammate in their scum games.

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:23 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:20 pm Voting out mafia doesn't mean you're town, but if you haven't voted out any mafia then you need to be resolved. That's what I'm saying, it's as clear as day, and you're spinning in 50 circles trying to avoid that.

Then its policy, if you mandatorily resolve everyone who doesn't vote a mafia.

You don't actually scum-read kyle.

Anyways, its entirely possible (in a hypotheyical new game of this) just to do 1 bus, and then have 4-5 towns not on that wagon. Do we just chop all the towns because two mafia were bussing?

policy applies at endgame, not at start game

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:24 pm I can't force you to play the game the way I want

This applies to both ways, and you can't always know what people will think.

I will be self voting in all circumstances other than the potential for a martin or BoKnows yeet

Honestly let's just flip Kyle. Kyle already mentioned he wanted to be sacrificed to help solve the game. I just read some of the theory you posted, Alison and I agree with the most part. I just feel like it's messing the human element to the game but I don't know if that can be accounted for.

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:26 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:24 pm I can't force you to play the game the way I want

This applies to both ways, and you can't always know what people will think.

You're completely correct, I can't force you to play properly if you want to turn the game into a clown fiesta.

And I'm not going to make the thread toxic by flaming you or shouting and screaming like some people do. Instead, I'm just going to tell you the way I see the game, leave it up to you to make an informed, conscious choice about what you think the optimal strategy and vote is, and wash my hands of responsibility if you guys decide to take the game in your own direction and lose it.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:26 pm I will be self voting in all circumstances other than the potential for a martin or BoKnows yeet

So you'll be self-voting. You won't get 3 votes on anyone else.

controls the game for 4 days

calls me selfish

ts account looks like he's afk so it's either a self vote hammer or 2/1/1 at plurality.

I think everyone's said their piece so if you're town you can go ahead and self hammer. If that is the case you can go in peace and be rest assured you're giving the rest of the town the maximum chance to win.

alison I'm just pointing out you could have solved me way easier way earlier if you tried using you know.... Logic and reason based on past experiences with me etc etc. Just cus you have a specific PoE doesn't mean everyone has to glue their eyeballs to it, and it doesn't make them bad players for not agreeing with it.

and I'm sure you have an hour long essay on why that's illogical or something but that's not what this is about okay? Thanks for reading and understanding

and now I [VOTE: kylemii] aubergine so she doesn't have time to respond with a 5 paragraph essay about how you can only play mafia with a TI 94 graphing calculator or better

@Sloonei
@juliets

Hammer.

Kylemii wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:36 pm and now I [VOTE: kylemii] aubergine so she doesn't have time to respond with a 5 paragraph essay about how you can only play mafia with a TI 94 graphing calculator or better

I'm sorry but if you don't play mafia with a super computer and 14 textbooks worth of theory you should just retire

/s

Sorry, I do not have one of Sloonei's nice pictures of the Day 5 poll.
Who stings the stingers?
Poll runs till Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:00:00 pm
Please note that if you vote, your vote will be visible.

You may select 1 option
Alison

1
8%

Voters: MartinGG99


BoKnows

0
No votes
 
Voters: None


Kylemii

3
25%
 
Voters: Kylemii, Alison, BoKnows


MartinGG99

0
No votes
 
Voters: None


ts account

0
No votes
 
Voters: None


No one

0
No votes
 
Voters: None

Thread is unlocked.

Well well well

Through hours of incredibly thorough reads, I have narrowed down the last scum to two possible people.

Okay, continuing my problems w/ Alison's brilliant VCA idea that led to chopping Kyle without even trying to read him....when chopping kyle was supported by the false claim that he didn't have a wolf-pelt at all.

I've made it more concise, though it is a bit lengthy:

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:14 pm I don't want to live in a world where people vote based on vibes at F3. If that's the way you want to play it then you might as well rand the exes because that's what your reads are going to be like at this point.

Well, you are trying to solve at F3 rather than before-hand. Seems similar to blind flying to me, and makes you incredibly hard to read as town (if town) because you aren't solving through any non-mechanical sense and that makes you incredibly susceptible to mafia agendas and plans. I don't believe that you genuinely believe in such play with such a major vulnerability.

It's entirely possible that, in another hypothetical world (see spoiler), that if 2 mafia bussed Falcon on d1 and we followed your "we must clear towns without a wolf pelt first" then it would have been impossible for town to win that unless the mafia decided to help you out by night-killing the towns who weren't on the D1 mafia wagon or giving them a gun.

The fact that you've been presenting this sort of idea and play since SoD2 with your auto-clear of the D1 wagon makes it seem like you had a plan that didn't adapt because you're scum, and you were intending to bus Quin with it in order to deep-wolf. Your insistence that there was a save on D1 benefits only you and (quite conveniently) your read on BoKnows.

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:16 pm It's just that before you can start digging into "who bussed?" you should first get rid of the people who don't have any pelts, and then when you've proven that mafia bussed then you can start figuring out who it was. Rather than just throw everything to the wind and picking some random interaction and staking the game off that.

If we follow through with this reasoning then its "correct" for us to always chop BoKnows here since he has never had an EoD vote on a wolf while I and you do. Only that he had been voted by wolves before. You're bullshitting more in this belief of yours imo especially when you've said this before that and very recently:

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:47 pm So the question is, will Kyle or Alison be better positioned to convince the other townie that they're innocent in F3? And the answer is clearly me.

There wouldn't be a need to clear yourself if you strongly believed that towns without a pelt needed to go first. If you're counting even temporary votes on wolves, then I think quite a few players would find that level of free coverage and clear to be outrageous.


Additionally: I'm not sure why you didn't account for Kyle having a vote on Quin for EoD1.

Kyle could've switched to Falcon if he was going to bus D1, so there would've been no point for him to vote Quin if he was scum. He had a wolf-pelt in most respects, and should have had that.

I don't think anyone genuinely believes in this.

The Kyle chop was just the most questionable thing I've every felt in a mafia game, and it bothering my has gotten me to the reasons why.

There is no major vulnerability to my play. If Kyle had been permitted to come to this F3 the game would be over. You are either scum or so willingly blind about what good mafia play means that you're throwing the entire F3 for the sake of it.

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:38 pm There is no major vulnerability to my play. If Kyle had been permitted to come to this F3 the game would be over. You are either scum or so willingly blind about what good mafia play means that you're throwing the entire F3 for the sake of it.

Should've explained and solved better

But I guess you don't need to do that as scum.

At least I made a good, honest-to-god, read on Kyle and I was godamm right. If you think that's a misplay for me to read that on D5 and to investigate and push you instead then you should've re-evaluate what scum-hunting is.

You know what. I'm just going to do what I said I'd do yesterday. Right now I think there's a 65% chance Martin is scum and a 35% chance BK is scum, but based on what I know about Martin I don't believe I can talk him out of voting me if he's town anyway because he's spent so long screaming about how my idea of playing mafia is wrong that it would probably puncture his ego to do so and so he will never re-evaluate.

[VOTE: Martin] aubergine

@Sloonei @juliets Locking my vote.

I don't really care about whether my reads are about rand, as a past quote suggested.

I'm here to improve myself and I'm not going to let you lazily coast on some mech-informed plan that got us nothing since Quin, while denying my hopes of improving myself.

@BoKnows if you're scum you can collect your free win now. If you're town you can also collect your free win now. Either way you should just vote Martin and enjoy the victory.

MartinGG99 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:41 pm

Alison wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:38 pm There is no major vulnerability to my play. If Kyle had been permitted to come to this F3 the game would be over. You are either scum or so willingly blind about what good mafia play means that you're throwing the entire F3 for the sake of it.

Should've explained and solved better

But I guess you don't need to do that as scum.

At least I made a good, honest-to-god, read on Kyle and I was godamm right. If you think that's a misplay for me to read that on D5 and to investigate and push you instead then you should've re-evaluate what scum-hunting is.

Yeah, and saving Kyle would have lost F3 anyway. So there's no world where you're town and played correctly there, you're either mafia or you're town who threw the game with your sick derail of a very simple POE.

Yeah you should vote me if you're scum

the guy who didn't give you free coverage when Alison did

Anyway I've locked my vote on you and I'm town so if you're town you can pat yourself on the back for the worst tunnel on planet earth, scumreading Alison for playing like a robot.